Ricobran
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Posts posted by Ricobran
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1 minute ago, crusadertsar said:
If you are always pressing them high with a high defensive line, where do you think they will send the balls? Just think about it.
Did you actually read my whole comment?
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Does anyone know how to stop the opposition playing balls over the top of my defence? I have pressing set to high, but it’s still happening. Even donkey CBs are playing Pirlo-esque passes over the top from 40 yards. I have tried playing all kind of defensive and engagement lines, step up more, drop off more. I’ve set my CBs to close down less and have tried using a covering defender. I’ve had some joy, but still not happy with how often it’s happening.
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On 27/12/2022 at 06:32, Rashidi said:
You haven't really explained how you want to play defensively apart from posting a tactic.
When two teams take to the pitch to play football, the goal is to win matches. Having a solid defensive structure in place to achieve that goal is just one part of the process. Some teams may only seek to park the bus and aren't interested in going for the winning goal, and other teams might be looking to play a defensive style but with the option to strike on the counter to score a goal.
Defensive systems share common principles
Cover, Control and Balance
Pressure
Compactness
Cover - The relative distances between players that allow them to control space. The midfield will block wide passes and force players into a strong defensive middle (for example). More than one player will offer defensive help. A player can put an opposition team player under pressure, and in doing so, his area of responsibility is covered by someone else. To achieve this there has to be a structural balance to the system. For example, in a 532, while wingbacks may be responsible for protecting the flanks, you need adequate cover and balance, so you also need the centre mids in wider areas to support them by doing the initial press/
Pressure - Its the role of the first defender ( any role on the pitch) who happens to be the player closest to the ball. The goal is to deny them time, delay their progression and allow your team to get into position to prevent them from progressing the attack.
Compactness - This refers to the depth of your system. Arrigo Saachi played a style which was compact. The distance between the strikers and the defenders was no more than 25 yards. This compactness makes it hard for teams to find space between the lines. A defensive system needs to deny space between the lines forcing the ball elsewhere.
Teams can either sit back park the bus and hope or use the defensive structure to allow them to win the ball back and launch counters. So how do you want your defensive system to play?
ACHIEVING THIS ON FM
On football manager you can play defensive football on any mentality, naturally the lower mentalities are easier, I play defensive football on positive mentality too. Here we need to understand what mentality means and does in the game.
Mentality modulates behaviour on FM, it affects risk. This in turn affects decision making and is the underlying driver for 5 team instructions. On lower mentalities your players will not try too many risky things, however there are different roles and duties in the game. Using an attacking role like the wingback on an attacking duty will still see that role try and get up the pitch to take part in attacking transitions.
Say you set up a tactic like yoursIn this tactic, you aren't defensively solid. Your wingbacks need to deal with all the threats, they are exposed to 2v1 situations if the opposition plays a 424, 442, 433. This requires the HBs to help but they are too deep. IN other words your system is allowing the opposition up the pitch unimpeded, by the time you need to defend its already too late, you have ceded the pitch to the opponents.
You are also forcing the opponents to the most vulnerable area on the pitch. By forcing them outside you are directing them to the one area where you have the least number of players to protect. Imagine you had to defend against an army, you basically sited the bulk of your army in one area and you told the opposing forces to attack you down the weakest flank. Its not defensive football, its harakiri.
You have also set up a much higher defensive line which pushes your team higher up the pitch which does nothing to help your flanks.
With that much lower line of engagement you are sitting super deep which makes matters worse.
With your team sitting so deep you have also told them to play out of defence, while this is not a bad instruction, you have few outlets to bring the ball out without you losing it in transition.
HOW DO YOU FIX IT?
1. Define where you want to win the ball - COVER AND BALANCE
2. Set up in transition instructions correctly for PRESSURE AND COMPACTNESS
EXAMPLE
Take a look at this example, here I have set up a system that is played on very defensive mentality, my flanks have coverage, I have two roles either side that support defending the flanks. My WCBs are on defend duty.
I can also use hit early crosses to launch attacks from deeper areas without waiting for my backs to get to the byeline. I am also using a TM(S) so that we can have simpler transitions like balls over the top.
This is fairly aggressive still, but it uses the defensive principles of compactness.
Now lets see another one which is basically my doorbolt system.
Uses the same principles, but here I value compactness, my players don't press like crazy, I want them to hold their position, we sit in a low block, tackle hard and look for the quick out.
Finally.|
A more flashy system, here I know how the IWBs are going to behave, they wont sit and control the DM space, instead they will be narrower in attack so they should be moving into the channels. I use this system on defensive or very defensive mentalities. When defending we drop into a 7, but when we win the ball the higher defensive line and the attacking duties allows me to get the ball up quick. Here the two flank roles are putting pressure on their wingbacks all the time.
There are plenty of ways to design solid defensive systems on football manager, you just need to have a clear idea of how you want to defend and then you want to use the ball when you have it. Hope this gives you some ideas. I also have to add that @GIMNprovided some good insights too. Very defensive, defensive are just mentalities you can play defensive football on any mentality. On lower mentalities the only real difference is that players are more circumspect with the use of the ball and you will also see attacking roles and duties more likely to come back and help you defend,I’ve just tried using some of your advice. Playing as Spurs at home to Chelsea. I was warned about Kaverts who was playing as AML. So I had Hojbjerg covering that area. I wasn’t sure what the best role was to give him, so I went for Carrilero to hopefully block off the right side. Early on in the game I noticed Kovacic was looking dangerous on the ball, so I had Son marking him. After 82 minutes the game was still 0-0. Son and Hojbjerg were both tired, so I replaced them with my new signings Leonardo, and Otavio. On the 88th minute Bentancur won the ball in midfield, played it inside to Otavio who played a through ball to Leonardo who raced through and slotted coolie past Mendy. Que double fist pump. We held on for the win. Chelsea finished with only 2 shots on target. Sterling, Kaverts and Mount rated 6.2. Chelsea’s XG 0.44. Very happy!
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6 hours ago, Rashidi said:
You haven't really explained how you want to play defensively apart from posting a tactic.
When two teams take to the pitch to play football, the goal is to win matches. Having a solid defensive structure in place to achieve that goal is just one part of the process. Some teams may only seek to park the bus and aren't interested in going for the winning goal, and other teams might be looking to play a defensive style but with the option to strike on the counter to score a goal.
Defensive systems share common principles
Cover, Control and Balance
Pressure
Compactness
Cover - The relative distances between players that allow them to control space. The midfield will block wide passes and force players into a strong defensive middle (for example). More than one player will offer defensive help. A player can put an opposition team player under pressure, and in doing so, his area of responsibility is covered by someone else. To achieve this there has to be a structural balance to the system. For example, in a 532, while wingbacks may be responsible for protecting the flanks, you need adequate cover and balance, so you also need the centre mids in wider areas to support them by doing the initial press/
Pressure - Its the role of the first defender ( any role on the pitch) who happens to be the player closest to the ball. The goal is to deny them time, delay their progression and allow your team to get into position to prevent them from progressing the attack.
Compactness - This refers to the depth of your system. Arrigo Saachi played a style which was compact. The distance between the strikers and the defenders was no more than 25 yards. This compactness makes it hard for teams to find space between the lines. A defensive system needs to deny space between the lines forcing the ball elsewhere.
Teams can either sit back park the bus and hope or use the defensive structure to allow them to win the ball back and launch counters. So how do you want your defensive system to play?
ACHIEVING THIS ON FM
On football manager you can play defensive football on any mentality, naturally the lower mentalities are easier, I play defensive football on positive mentality too. Here we need to understand what mentality means and does in the game.
Mentality modulates behaviour on FM, it affects risk. This in turn affects decision making and is the underlying driver for 5 team instructions. On lower mentalities your players will not try too many risky things, however there are different roles and duties in the game. Using an attacking role like the wingback on an attacking duty will still see that role try and get up the pitch to take part in attacking transitions.
Say you set up a tactic like yoursIn this tactic, you aren't defensively solid. Your wingbacks need to deal with all the threats, they are exposed to 2v1 situations if the opposition plays a 424, 442, 433. This requires the HBs to help but they are too deep. IN other words your system is allowing the opposition up the pitch unimpeded, by the time you need to defend its already too late, you have ceded the pitch to the opponents.
You are also forcing the opponents to the most vulnerable area on the pitch. By forcing them outside you are directing them to the one area where you have the least number of players to protect. Imagine you had to defend against an army, you basically sited the bulk of your army in one area and you told the opposing forces to attack you down the weakest flank. Its not defensive football, its harakiri.
You have also set up a much higher defensive line which pushes your team higher up the pitch which does nothing to help your flanks.
With that much lower line of engagement you are sitting super deep which makes matters worse.
With your team sitting so deep you have also told them to play out of defence, while this is not a bad instruction, you have few outlets to bring the ball out without you losing it in transition.
HOW DO YOU FIX IT?
1. Define where you want to win the ball - COVER AND BALANCE
2. Set up in transition instructions correctly for PRESSURE AND COMPACTNESS
EXAMPLE
Take a look at this example, here I have set up a system that is played on very defensive mentality, my flanks have coverage, I have two roles either side that support defending the flanks. My WCBs are on defend duty.
I can also use hit early crosses to launch attacks from deeper areas without waiting for my backs to get to the byeline. I am also using a TM(S) so that we can have simpler transitions like balls over the top.
This is fairly aggressive still, but it uses the defensive principles of compactness.
Now lets see another one which is basically my doorbolt system.
Uses the same principles, but here I value compactness, my players don't press like crazy, I want them to hold their position, we sit in a low block, tackle hard and look for the quick out.
Finally.|
A more flashy system, here I know how the IWBs are going to behave, they wont sit and control the DM space, instead they will be narrower in attack so they should be moving into the channels. I use this system on defensive or very defensive mentalities. When defending we drop into a 7, but when we win the ball the higher defensive line and the attacking duties allows me to get the ball up quick. Here the two flank roles are putting pressure on their wingbacks all the time.
There are plenty of ways to design solid defensive systems on football manager, you just need to have a clear idea of how you want to defend and then you want to use the ball when you have it. Hope this gives you some ideas. I also have to add that @GIMNprovided some good insights too. Very defensive, defensive are just mentalities you can play defensive football on any mentality. On lower mentalities the only real difference is that players are more circumspect with the use of the ball and you will also see attacking roles and duties more likely to come back and help you defend,Thanks, this is really helpful. How would you apply this to a 4-3-3 formation?
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On 23/12/2022 at 14:54, GIMN said:
Seem to be doing alright, albeit I've yet to complete my first season yet:
I do spend a lot of time analysing my opposition, making adjustments a week ahead so that it can be part of the training focus for the upcoming week. On that basis I might sometimes deploy a 3-4-2-1, sometimes a 3-4-1-2, but the tactical instructions are always the same:
Talent wise, we are far away from being the best in the league. We were predicted 9th, we lack much in the way of height or speed in defence, and our wing-backs are converted wingers that are constantly moaning about being played out of position.
I’m interested to know what you look for when analysing the opposition. What do you look for? I literally look at the opposition on the day of the game. If they have a creative player with low pace or dribbling skills I close them down. If they have short strikers I put wingers on their opposite foot. If they are fast with good dribbling stats I tackle hard etc…
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I have since cheated and watched a YouTube video that was very helpful. I’m now playing 3 defenders with wingbacks. 3 in midfield, and 2 upfront. It worked well in the first 2 games, beating Brentford and Arsenal, but then lost 4-1 away to PSG. I’m going to see how it goes with some tweaking.
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I’ve read that the defending in this years version is supposed to be better. I didn’t get into FM22, so stuck to FM21. But for me the defending is terrible. I have been experimenting with defensive tactics using a mid-block and different defensive lines, but still haven’t found a way of defending properly. I’m managing Spurs and have Dier (slow) in the middle of my 3 man defence. I keep seeing my defenders moving out of position to close down players when they don’t need to. I now have all 3 defenders on close down less, but it still keeps happening. I’ve now decided to put Dier on cover to see if that helps. The other problem is the amount of balls played over the top of my defence, even by the oppositions CBs who have poor passing and vision, or CMs when one of my players is right on top of them. I wouldn’t mind so much, but I have rapid forwards/wingers and good passers in the team, but I can very rarely get them to play balls over the top.
This is going to take some more experimenting, but I’m getting pretty fed up with it.
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I’m finding it quite easy considering I’m still unsure what I’m doing. So far, playing as Spurs, winning against Palace, Newcastle, West Ham and Brighton. A draw with Man Utd and a narrow lose to Chelsea away. The game against Brighton was ridiculous, we were putting through balls time after time, scoring 4 goals in 9 minutes in the first half. One annoying thing is defenders moving away/back from long balls.
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On 09/11/2022 at 20:42, Ricobran said:
In the post match analysis, but it now seems to be working.
I have just noticed that the numbers are showing, but the lines for passing, shooting etc are not.
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Loving it so far. Apart from some minor bugs and trying to get used to some of the controls, I played my first PL game as Spurs against Palace. After a poor first half I gave a positive team talk, made a few tactical changes and won 3-0. The player movement and passing was amazing. And I honestly felt like my changes made the difference (not something I really felt in previous editions), making it even more enjoyable. I’m hooked.
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8 hours ago, Luke Couchman said:
Hi @Ricobran, do you mean no post match analytical data in the data hub? Or elsewhere? I am happy to look into this for you if you could provide some more information
If you could log in the bug tracker, that would be helpful too https://community.sigames.com/bugtracker/football-manager-2023-touch-bugs-tracker/921_gameplay-issues/
In the post match analysis, but it now seems to be working.
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During a match it only lets you give feedback to one player. Once you select the feedback the match continues.
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18 hours ago, BuryBlade said:
I’ve logged a bug report for the missing data in data hub. If anyone else can throw their examples in their too, hopefully we can get a fix!
I’ve since played another match and this time the data was there.
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45 minutes ago, MrManagerMan said:
It’s funny people liking different things because I disliked that and always closed it down so I could see more of the match. Hopefully you’ll get used to the new UI.
Maybe they could give us the option to show or hide it again.
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Playing my second friendly, winning 3-2. Want to make some substitutions but they are all anxious. Seriously!
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Really liking it so far. But I do miss having the players at the bottom of the screen during matches.
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How does it work? It’s just showing the pitch, no data.
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There is no post-match analytical data. FM21 Touch had the same issue and was never fixed. Please sort it SI.
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I’ve been playing FM21 all this time. If I’d be playing it via Apple Arcade it would have cost me about £90.
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I think it’s disgusting, especially in the current climate. This is how SI treat their loyal customers. I won’t be signing up with Apple Arcade.
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Great advice. Thank you, I will give it a go. I kinda thought having 2 DLPs would create more direct passes, but what you've said makes sense.
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Oh ok. I couldn’t find that.
The idea was to sit back, so when we got the ball we had plenty of space to play direct passing into. I kind of think you can’t play direct passing if the opposition are sitting back.
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I’ve been playing FM for over 10 years and still can only be successful playing short passing. It’s not only that, I have to make them play more disciplined and dribble less. I have won the Premier League many times, and the Champions League a few times. I always use players with good passing, good decision making etc. With the attacking players they have good off the ball, composure etc. Basically I have very good Premier League players. But whenever I try giving them creative freedom, use more direct passing etc they underperform. I also have attacking players with amazing dribbling and speed stats, but all too often they underperform. I’ve just played a few experimental games with more direct passing, sitting deep to hit them on the counter attack, instead of the usual gegenpress that only seems to work for me, but again failure. Can anyone explain where I might be going wrong.
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Crazy game!
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If you could log in the bug tracker, that would be helpful too 
Defensive Tactics
in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion
Posted
I’ve basically said I’ve tried everything. Sorry I didn’t mention closing down less.