Riziger
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Posts posted by Riziger
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Might be proven wrong - but both in FM and in real life, the system they played yesterday was spot on for playing against teams like Liverpool, City, maybe Arsenal/Chelsea in the PL. Where UTD can play the counter style that suited them well a few years ago.
In FM especially, I find that long-term, especially in competitive leagues like the prem, it is difficult to play the counter / low block style. The smaller teams will let you have the ball and the whole plan of 'exploit gaps with balls in behind' is gone because there will not be any gaps if the other team also sits back with their low compact block.
Maybe only change I'd make is mctom on CM/D?
Let us know how you go.
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No dramas, can appreciate the monumental effort of piecing this together. Look forward to any updates.
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Great stuff Cleon. Read it all in one go.
Really enjoyed the section on the DLF/MEZ partnerships and the analysis/watching the game sections. Will definitely be incorporating some ideas from those in how I play.
Just as an add-on. I've scanned through the book twice now and you switched from playing with a high aggressive block with much higher / much higher, to going to a low DL at the end of the book. Did the defensive system change through the season based on what you were seeing?
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4231 or 433 can both work very easily.
Bog standard 433 - Mane as the IWs, Salah IFa, Bobby F9/DLFs/a/TQ. Mez+Car or Mez+B2B or CMa+B2B etc all can work in the midfield pairing.
Can also try Salah as the Wa with TAA as the IWB behind. He will still behave like a second striker. MEZ/BWM/REG midfield trio.
This FM I tried the 4231 with middle block and AF up top or CF up top and it worked well. Could do a Ws (Mane), SS (Jota), IFa (Salah), DLFs/a (Bobby) front 4 also
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Beta - Liverpool as always. Probably then RB Leipzig as I never really got going in the Bundesliga in 21. Maybe down the line do the RB path - might a be a chance to check out Brazil finally.
Always wanted to do a MLS save but not sure if FM have sorted the rules yet.
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I follow Daljit / Guido etc very closely but I still struggle with 'reading' the match.
Perhaps a section on how you watch the games to see what and where to tweak. When I watch people like Daljit play, or some of the great posts on here - they can directly link a specific tweak to a consequence in the game. Some are more obvious than others - player rating super low - likely being exposed/forced into mistakes.
But I'm sure like many others - I often end games shouting 'I KNEW THAT WOULD HAPPEN' when I get 'FM'd' and their 15 year old striker bundles in a 97th minute winner as their only shot in the game. What I don't know is how to understand what mistakes I made and what I should have done in hindsight.
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I am finding the same. I have Kounde as a libero in a 343. The 2 CD beside him do well but he seems to hover around 6.6 even with clean sheets.
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22 hours ago, Christopher S said:
Solid reasoning. Been trying it for a few games in pre-season, seems promising so far. I'm somewhat worried what'll happen if the Winger doesn't actually score loads of goals, the FM21 match engine is just as bad as the previous iterations in regards to player decision making from wide positions. I'm already noticing what always happens; wingers (aka the Winger role) refuase to take 100% free crosses and rather wait for someone to catch up - or they'll cut insided and try and shoot from a completely dead angle despite having 2-3 teammates completely free around the 6-yard box. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong!
See how you go. I definitely am finding that is the case when the opposition doesn't want to play and sits back. The Winger will have A LOT of shots.
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2 hours ago, Christopher S said:
Damn, that looks solid. Will try it out. I've not had any success with an SS on any of the editions since it came out, so it's sort of on my bucket list!
Alszo, the WBs, MEZs, IWs combo definitely seems like it could create issues for the opposing team. The only thing I'd be worried about is who they are going to unload the ball to. A PFs is fairly static, and the SS would have to drift wide to be available from that kind of an overload, no? I worry that the only real outlet would be 40-50 yard lateral/diagonal passes, and those tend to get intercepted a lot. Have you tried this out? Am I wrong?
EDIT: I didnt see that you have your PFs with Roam. I suppose this would actually directly adress my concern, and instead leave the SS room to go through the middle while the PFs will make him self available as an outlet for the overload?
You're right. In this system the idea is to
1) release the Winger - who when on attack duty actually functions somewhat like a wide striker. (David Neres scored 21, assisted 9, with 7 POM in 40 apps in season 2).
2) Make space for the SS to use the PFs (or DLFs even) for 'wall passes'. 1-2 and in.
3) Pull 1 or 2 center backs to that side so the PFs/SS/W combo get a 3 on 2 situation.
4) Release the wingback/FB on the same side for a cutback.
I've seen this system work with the AF up top as well so might be worth a go if the PFs is too passive?
I also think it was Bustthenet/Rashidi who recommended adding roam on the SS if you are playing against a 433 with a very good DM.
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12 hours ago, Christopher S said:
I really like the setup you have here. How did you pair that up with instructions?
I've actually abandoned it since then. It might be my squad but the setup seemed very leaky. I have a feeling trying to balance out a tactic with IWB in 4-2-3-1 will be difficult. But if you want to give it a go, my team instructions for the above system were:
Fairly Narrow - POOD - Underlap Right - Whipped crosses
Counter - Counter Press - Short Kicks
Higher LOE - Higher DL - More Urgent - Prevent GK Distribution - Offside Trap
I've gone back to a more traditional box 4 in defence and release the wingbacks, swapped the DLP over to the winger side - roam on the PFs and IWs:
PFs IWs SS Wa CMd DLPs FBa BPDd CDd WBs SKsSimilar team instructions - Fairly Narrow - POOD - Higher Tempo - Whipped Crosses (or low/wbib if my team start taking pot shots - I also sometimes add 'Wide, Direct, Slower' if the opposition is just sitting back)
Counter - Counter Press - Short Kicks
Higher LOE - Higher DL - More Urgent - Prevent GK Distribution - Offside Trap
If you have the players (and time) might be worth switching the CMd to a Mez and see how that goes. Maybe the FBa drops to a WBs or FBs/WBd. I think the MEZs IWs WBs combination on the left will create a lot of problems and overloads if you add focus play on the left as well.
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14 hours ago, Britrock said:
My current 4231 is
CFa IFa APa Ws BBM CMd WBs BPDc CDs IWBa SKdThe number of through balls that go straight through a defence is amazing to watch. The IWBa gives an extra man in the middle of the field when attacking that the defence just doesn't know what to do with and he's chipped in with 5+ goals so far. The CFa holds the ball up by default but is also attacking enough that he stretches the opposition - you do need someone there who is good in the air though to win a lot of knockdowns though. The IFa is always looking to get beyond the defence for the through balls and is regularly on the end of the winger's crosses (the IFa is my top scorer so far this season).
Mine is a flipped version (Sometimes focus play left, with underlap right to get the Wa and IWBd to come closer together), that is slightly less direct than yours:
PFs IWs SS Wa DLPs MEZs FBa CDd CDd IWBd SKsI've been toying with putting the 'holding' CM on the same side as the IWB but am worried they are going to sit in the same spaces when attacking.
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6 hours ago, Corperate said:
Thank you for your comments and yes I get a lot of what you are saying. But I think you have slightly misconstrued the specifics of what I have said. My understanding is that an underlapping run is anyone central making a run forward this could be an inverted fullback or a volante.
This is essentially my question... will the 'look for underlap' instruction include those further vertically forward. In the instance of my tactic the left back and winger looking to play forward to a center forward. Instead of looking to make gains down the flank?
Curious to see what others say about this also. Say if you put an underlap on the left. Foden is naturally stretching the play, to 'maximise' the underlap would we want to have some combination of VOL(A) and an AM(A) and/or an FB(A)?
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This might be a dumb question - but any chance this works with Fm 21 touch? Thanks for all you do.
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Thought I'd keep this thread alive. Check in with my progress on FM21 and share my current tactic. Keep in mind I'm playing at a rather low level so might just be my players being better than the rest (although media prediction was 2nd in the league). This is also the first time in a long time doing an invincible season.
I drew the first game of the season then won every game since.
XG
XGA
Most games were complete domination with the opposition pinned in their own half.
I used 1 tactic all the way through (since the middle of the previous season) - a Nagelsman style 4-2-2-2. Wanting to keep the 'box' shape and getting the wingers into the channels/half spaces in front of the DMs. In the attacking transitions, it often becomes a 2-2-6. The wing backs providing the width, and often the crosses to the far post for the IW or WM to tap in. The 2 DMs don't often get high ratings but that's fine, their job is simple. Keep the shape and recycle play / provide an outlet for the defence. Although we smothered most teams, I accepted that to get the high compression I could live with conceding from balls over the top - I also made this decision because in this league, jumping reach for my CBs was appalling and I opted to have fast CBs instead.
The only thing I messed with was the left striker - the PF(s) worked well until teams started to realise how good we were and just sat back. Then I moved between CF(S) or DLF(S/A) this could also be because I preferred to use my academy products at the striker positions and all of them were between 16-19. Not very consistent.:
PIs:
LB/RB - stay wider.
LM/RM - roam, stay narrow.
VOL - get further forward.
Also keep in mind with the players I assembled them to specifically play this style of football. My player DNA in order of importance: Determination / Work Rate / Decisions / Team Work / Natural Fitness / Anticipation / Acceleration / OTB. I didn't mind 'carrying' one or two players, like one of the wingers or one striker but the spine of the team needs to have these attributes.
I think I have taken this style and this team to the limit now. I could be wrong, but this high press high tempo run and gun 'punch you in the face' heavy-metal style seems to work best when you are overachieving. Once the game recognises your team as the obvious favourite and every scout report says opposition will play cautious, there becomes less space to run into and finesse becomes more important.
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At lower levels, with the right attributes, and it sounds like you already have them. The high tempo / high press game I think is well suited. At these levels mistakes are far more common, so keeping the ball in the opponents half is preferable. Often at this level my defensive players lacked the concentration/positioning/decision/anticipation so I just lump in a bunch of physical, hard working players and let them run around. 'Out work' the opponents and force them into mistakes.
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He did say that ti has been left untouched yet.
I’ve found using both tactics that you need very good cbs to pull this off. Even with both flank players as dw and a holding bwm or anchor, when I played against 433 or 4231 teams roughly similar level or better to my team, the outer cbs struggle with always being 1v1.
be curious to see how it goes with inter though
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Interested to see how this develops as I'm also trying to do a 3412. Kind of Nagelsman inspired but I don't have the players yet.
I tried for a bit with the ML/R (as Defensive Wingers) but unfortunately suffered my biggest losses of the season in those games. I've switched it back to the more conservative wingbacks. CWB(S) on the left as my DLP will hold position there. WB(S) on the right with a CM(S) beside him. Still unsure of the RCM role yet so will leave it at that.
Alternatively I've seen Rashidi's 3412 use the ML/R strata but with DMs instead of CMs. That could be a way around if you don't want to use the wingbacks?
The front 3 is the tricky bit for me. AF/TM(s) is my default striker pairing mainly due to the players but I haven't managed to get the AM playing very well. Might give AF/TM(s) and AP(a) a shot.
For your back 3 though, you may want to try the middle BPD on stopper as that makes him a bit more adventurous unless you are set on using the Libero.
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40 minutes ago, DimitrisLar said:
3 questions here:
1. does it really need to be so many PI's?
2. why not a reverse in the mc roles, with the cm turned into a mez?
3. Is the right CB without the stay wider instruction for a reason, like maybe to hijack balls from deep? Is it to achieve something on the build up and the dr positioning?
I assume for 3 - the HB already splits the defenders naturally in possession. LCB stays wider as cover for the LB who aggressively pushes upfield. As the RB is the conservative one, there is no need to 'cover' for him with stay wider?
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I'm going to try this 'minimalist' approach to start at least. Will give me a much better understanding of roles and duties + formation without any more variables from the TIs/PIs.
Also he didn't do 'nothing'. Picking the right roles/duties, and players that can play together in one cohesive system in and of itself is more than half the battle in this game.
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2 hours ago, ozilthegunner said:
@04texag (I believe) has suggested altering tempo as a response to opposition pressing.
Following one of Guardiola's methods, you want to use individual possession as a means of attracting opposition to open space elsewhere. The best way to do that is to invite the opposition to you so that they arrive just before the pass is made. Too early, less space; too late, tackle.
So, anyway, the idea is to watch to see if you are hitting that pressing sweet spot and, if not, alter tempo to get there.
Now, importantly, given the fact that tempo is also affected by other TI changes (as mentioned above), strictly speaking altering those other things as a means of achieving the same goal could also work... and may be required since they can produce different 'increments' of change from just changing tempo directly
By this logic, if a team is sitting back or playing a lower block, you are more likely to slow the tempo, to give them time (invite) the opposition towards the player on the ball? And/Or run at defence maybe?
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I've been reading your thoughts as I am playing somewhat a similar type of game but at a much lower level. Perhaps try Inverted Wingers in the ML/MR strata? Also with a DLP/BWM, I worry it might lack dynamism, although I do realise your fullbacks are expected to bomb forward.
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Good read, I'm playing at much lower level but will use some of your ideas
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I've really enjoyed reading this. I've taken some inspiration although I'm playing with a much lower quality of player. Anyone tried this now in FM21?
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1 minute ago, Rashidi said:
Its always good to try things out and see what happens, nothing inherently wrong with what you propose, plus congestion in the central areas was necessary for my initial design because i wanted the flanks free for the wider players. The 4231deep version is actually what I did in the Controlled Block Preset thread. That tactic was a derivation of this one. So its entirely possible to play with 2DMs the key are the 3 central mids. The one i posted is very aggressive, because that is the style i like, a more reckless one. Conservative styles may include a DM/DLP/AM(S) combo I would avoid the anchorman because he could stay too deep in a system that still needs to bridge the gap between DM strata and AMC strata.
Thanks @Rashidi. Yeah will give them a try this evening. I really like your use of the SV(A) REG but I think for this version those are not considered a 'double pivot' right? Instead here we let the fullbacks bomb forward. Might go with the HB RPM and see first, but might change the HB to DLP (either D or S).
Going a little off topic here slightly - if the goal scorer instead comes from the flanks i.e. Salah/Mane. Is the logic of focus play through the middle to 'release' the flanks correct? I realise that this changes the dynamic of the tactic quite a bit as this Bayern version is kind of meant to draw teams from side to side.
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3 at the back
in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion
Posted
I'm playing a somewhat similar shape. Any particular reason the back 3 are all on defend instead of cover/stopper?