[The Art of Possession Football]

First of all I don't have a problem, my question is not about a problem. I don't understand 4231 example, I have no business with 4231 right now. If you look at my question; I can't understand what is the different with CF-s and f9 in build up play, especially with van persie who has 'comes deep to get ball' PPM, and I wanna ask it if am missing something. It is just that simple. I am not sure my question really that disturbing. I think extension of this discussion is more disturbing than my questions. It is pointless, has no relation with this helpful article. So I will stop asking question and I am sorry if I bother all of you that much.

Sorry, the 4231 bit was @Egecann. I reworded it so many times I forgot the content was at two different people.

[The Art of Possession Football]

What can't you understand? 90 minutes typically isn't enough to see whats consistently happening. What are the problems your seeing? There isn't a magical combo of players that will just work whatever the situation, your theory is logical so try it out. I find 4231 with no DM's people focus on the MCs but really the star players need to be the DC's as they have to defend the space in front of them, the MC's will not be shielding them like DM's whatever role you give.

[The Art of Possession Football]

If I changed TI's once it was fluid it would become un fluid again so we'd be back at square one. Always build towards what you want straight away, if not you're doing it twice for no reason at all.

There is no reason at all why your tactic wouldn't be fully fluid before the first competitive game unless you're a semi pro club. If you're a full time club and start the season with a tactic that isn't fluid then you've used the preseason poorly and wasted it.

Your changes could be closer to what the players are used to so will understand it better/sooner, rather than waiting till they're fully used to playing with lower creative freedom then giving them more creative freedom which they might of had previously.

[Quickfire Questions and Answers Thread (Tactic and Training Questions Only)]

Ok so look at this. https://youtu.be/sdjkumVS8A0?t=13m32s

Koscielny gets the ball, plays around with it and then tries to pass to Giroud, who is promptly tackled. Giroud is playing with his back to goal but simultaneously has come deep to get the ball. How would you go about replicating that movement?

Your thinking of absolutes. Just because a player as a "Preferred Move" does not mean "does it everytime". They don't have to have that PPM to come deeper. If there instructions tell them to work that area they will, it depends on a number of factors (Role+Duty, Team Shape etc). DLF-S should work the area highlighted in that video.

[Quickfire Questions and Answers Thread (Tactic and Training Questions Only)]

Movement != Body Position. They both may have there back to goal but the positioning changes the role it has.

Playing with your back to goal you aren't looking to drop deep to collect the ball. Your looking to receive the ball, to your feet, in an advanced area. From there you can roll the defender, flick it on, play it back etc.

If you've dropped deeper to collect the ball, your looking to play through balls, dribble at defender etc.

[Quickfire Questions and Answers Thread (Tactic and Training Questions Only)]

LINES & DIAMONDS: 4.11 SECONDARY PERSONAL INSTRUCTIONS

Need to scroll down a bit but that's the post.

[Quickfire Questions and Answers Thread (Tactic and Training Questions Only)]

Yeah, trying to give to much detail and confusing the simple point.

Just checked Lines and Diamonds, the first place I go to check things and it agrees with me rather than what some other websites say the instructions do.

Get Further Forward encourages mobility by setting the forward runs instruction to the maximum setting.

Hold Position encourages the player to stay deep and be ready to consolidate quickly by setting the forward runs instruction to the minimum setting.

Roam from Position encourages mobility by allowing the player much greater freedom of movement across the pitch.

[Quickfire Questions and Answers Thread (Tactic and Training Questions Only)]

Stick to Position = Make less forward runs.

Nothing to do with Roam From Position.

Confusing labels IMO.

So in your example your actually saying "make less forward runs but roam from position".

[Quickfire Questions and Answers Thread (Tactic and Training Questions Only)]

:confused:Say again, I missed that, never mentioned Forward Runs but just roam from position active and stick to position available and, if this one selected by me, how can a player Roam and Stick at the same time ? :confused:

I mentioned Forward Runs because I think that's the difference, Get Further Forward and Hold Position modify the forward runs instruction whilst Roam From Position doesn't.

In old slider terms forward runs had 3 levels: "Rarely -> Sometimes -> Often" if a roles default is "Sometimes" then you can tell them to Hold Position to make it Rarely. If its Rarely then you can't go lower so the instruction is disabled.

Roam From Position gives the player permission to move in any direction from there position. Where ever they end up roaming they will then follow there instructions (creative freedom dependent).

Edit:

This is just my theory though, some websites list those instructions as mentality modifiers but i'm not sure, positional maps as proof won't help. I can't see there being no instructions to modify forward runs so it has to be those two?!?

[Quickfire Questions and Answers Thread (Tactic and Training Questions Only)]

The wide-playmaker with support duty has a PI roam from position automaticaly active, but the PI Stick to Position is available. Is this correct ? And if correct, how does these two PI interact with each other ?

My understanding is the "Get Further Forward" and "Hold Position" modify forward run instructions, more like "Make offensive runs" and "don't make offensive runs". Once you think of them like that I think you will understand the difference.

[Quickfire Questions and Answers Thread (Tactic and Training Questions Only)]

So I had a 442 diamond that was set up like this :

........DLFs.............T..........

................AMCa...............

.......CMs.............B2B........

................DLPd...............

WBs.....CD..........CD.....WBa

Very few TIs & PIs, as I mostly use those as situational tools. Control/Standard and Fluid.

The system was performing very nicely, especially in the attacking side as I was scoring tons. However I found us a little too fragile defensively.

I then decided to switch to drop one of the MCs, making him a DC and consequently move up both FBs. The system looks like this now ( Control/standard - Balanced)

........DLFs............T.........

.................AMCs.............

........B2B............DLPd......

WBs...........................WBa

........DCs.....DCc.....DCs....

Immediately I noticed some huge changes. Mainly, we have a LOT more width and space to work with and we are very solid defensively.

There one major issue however : our shot count has exploded ( I think it has almost tripled) and we score way less than before.

I'm not absolutely sure why this is happening, but I think it is mainly due to the abundance of space and us not using it correctly. In the initial system both strikers were playing very deep and this worked because we were generating a lot of movement in a congested area. Now I feel my strikers are just too deep and by the time they approach the box the opposing defenders have had the time to reposition. Still I still fail to understand how something that worked fine in tight space can fail so hard when there's so much more of it to exploit.

What would you advise here ? I would like to keep the Treq upfront as I have player that is perfect for this role. I'm thinking of changing the DLF however to someone that can exploit the space created by the Treqs movement (I'm actually thinking of using a Poacher).

1. Are you using the same players? Do they have "shoots from distance" ?

2. Who are taking the long shots? Compare analysis from old games vs recent games.

3. Have teams started sitting deeper vs you as you have had success? This typically results in more space for long shots.

4. AMC-S I think is a major issue. AMC-S will shoot more often (from distance) and less forward runs than AMC-A. You've lost a lot of penetration from that change and will congest the space outside of the box, which might leave no option but to shoot.

[Quickfire Questions and Answers Thread (Tactic and Training Questions Only)]

My two wing backs Cresswell and Jenkinson are pretty decent in most stats bar dribbling (despite training them on that for two years!) so would you play them as wing backs or complete wing backs? Think I read somewhere a CWB dribbles more hence my concern if they have low dribbling stats, but also read that a CWB also defends more so not quite sure how to use them. So for the sake of argument if you just wanted them to get up field and ping crosses in which role would be better in your opinions?

I've quoted Lines and Diamonds (sticky in this section) so you can get a better idea of what each role + duty does.

I would say you want a FB role and probably Support or Attack duty with PI to dribble less and to adjust the cross from setting depending what you want. Since they can't dribble past players you need to create space for them and a way of supplying them the ball, which depends if you want them crossing from deep or byline.

The Fullback is the more reserved of the generalist roles in wide defence. Rather than taking on defenders directly, he’s expected to play off a wide forward or wide midfielder by providing crosses and overloading runs when the defenders ahead of him are occupied. With a Defend Duty, the fullback will operate in a primarily defensive capacity with a focus on staying deep and ensuring he can quickly consolidate behind the ball. On the ball, the fullback will mainly look to help maintain possession at the back, though when the opportunity arises, he must still be able to carry the ball out of defence and supply a cross from deep.

With a Support Duty, the fullback will provide a more balanced option with a greater willingness to move up and offer support in the final third when the situation allows it. Compared to a defend duty fullback, the support duty version will offer a bit more penetration with an occasional risky pass to players making runs into space.

With an Attack Duty, the fullback will place a much greater emphasis on mobility and penetration with the aim of providing width in the final third. He will look to carry out overlap patterns and create overloads with more frequent forward runs while looking to supply crosses to teammates in the box. Without adequate defensive cover behind him, an attacking fullback’s aggressive movement can leave the team exposed at the back.

The Wingback offers a slightly more attack-minded option in wide defence. He is expected to combine the defensive responsibilities of a fullback with the ability to operate as the main attacking threat from wide positions. Often playing either without a wide attacker ahead of him or with a wide attacker instructed to quickly move into a more central position, the wingback is normally relied upon to be the team’s main source of width on his flank.

With that said, the Defend Duty wingback is primarily focused on maintaining possession and ensuring quick consolidation, though compared to a defend duty fullback, he’ll be slightly more inclined to move up and offer support to the midfield when necessary. The Support Duty wingback, on the other hand, brings a much greater emphasis on mobility with frequent forward runs into attacking positions intended to provide width. He will also offer more penetration via the occasional pass into space behind defenders, though for the most part, the support duty wingback will look to operate as a link-up player in deft combination patterns in and around the area.

An Attack Duty wingback looks to double as an out-and-out winger going forward by combining the supporting wingback’s emphasis on mobility and width with a much greater emphasis on penetration. The attacking wingback will persistently look to run at defenders, beat his man on the outside with skillful dribbling and supply a dangerous cross from the byline.

The Complete Wingback combines the defensive responsibilities of a wide defender with the attacking intent of a modern day winger. As with other free roles, the defining contribution of the role is the high level of mobility. The Complete Wingback will look to burst forward whenever possible and offer width to the attack, but he is also free to drift inside to support the midfield or forwards when necessary. On the ball, he is given more freedom to improvise, and he will frequently look to offer penetration with dangerous crosses from the byline and deft, ambitious dribbling. With a Support Duty, the complete wingback will focus a bit more on offering support to the midfield. With an Attack Duty, he will instead look to overlap at the first opportunity.