Football Manager or Find-the-Meta Manager

[Mitja]

Discussion about presets won't get us nowhere but can someone explain what's wrong with that Catenaccio? 

[Costav]

13 minutes ago, Muja said:

More than just italian, I'm a Juventus fan. I hate Allegri and his philosophy to the core, though!  
And yet, he consistently carries on an entire match like that, more than that, entire SEASONS.
If you don't believe me, watch some Juventus matches from this season. But I won't blame you if you fall asleep halfway through the game, because it's truly a disgraceful spectacle.  lol

I am Italian too, I follow the Serie A as anybody (although I am not a "gobbo"). 
But I think that compare the Juventus style to park the bus is not really fear. I would say more that they play (mainly) "Standard" while still 0-0 (with lo defensive block) and then switch to "Defensive" when leading. 

I also agree that the problem is not the tactic per se but the ME, but I also think that the ME this year is better than last year (i hoped they have improved the "tactical on-field" side of the game this year, but as they are not too much into tactics as we are in Italy I did not expect so many changes to it)  

[Dotsworthy]

7 minutes ago, Rodrigogc said:

But that has been the point of the ME flaws for years. There's never balance. To make defensive football look better, they'd have to handicap attacking, and vice versa. Probably the reason why it never gets solved. 

The thing is that attacking strategies should not be easy to use, meanwhile defensive strategies should not be hard to use. 

Oh I agree, the balance isn't quite right. In my mind if you want to play defensive football in this game you don't use a defensive tactic, but a defensive formation like 5-2-3.

Edited February 15 by Dotsworthy

[Muja]

3 minuti fa, wazzaflow10 ha scritto:

So far you've just been moaning about how bad you are at this game. Its okay. Its a hard game. There's a whole tactics forum that can help you.

Lol, I know the ins and outs of this game. That's why I can see the flaws in it.
If anything, my problem is I overachieve too soon and it gets boring fast. I'm always finding new ways of limiting myself, like letting the DoF take care of the whole transfer business.

I just want the game to be better, not easier. You're totally missing the point of why I brought up the presets in the first place.

11 minuti fa, Dotsworthy ha scritto:

By that definition though this is a team that is weaker and more likely to concede chances regardless of what strategy they play. So the argument there is not that defensive strategies are too weak, but that attacking strategies are too easy for weaker teams in the game to use.

Yeah, I agree. But whether defense is too weak or attack is too strong, it's two faces of the same coin anyway. The ME is unbalanced, it's what I'm saying.

 

[DarJ]

@batsy23 I've only read the first page so far and while I do agree that sometimes the game can seem like you're finding a meta instead of managing a football team, I still think that other systems work as well. The tactic below is what I'm using at the moment (ignore the players. I also don't know why it says "custom vertical tiki-taka as I didn't touch any of the presets) and I wouldn't call it a meta tactic and it has been working very well so far, the lines are not super high, I'm not using low crossing or high tempo either the only roles that change in some games are the RPM and WB to DLP and WB on support. It's not a plug and play system either because I tried it in a different save I carried over from FM23 with a struggling semi-pro team and it didn't help at all

 

 

Edited February 15 by DarJ

[saiyaman]

I'm late to this but I want to add that as much as people put tactics on a pedestal, it's half the job.

Taking the example of park the bus there are a lot more factors which come into play.

There are other factors like attributes:

* Concentration (How well the player stays alert when parking the bus)

* Work Rate (Does he even keep working till the end?) plus does he have the Stamina to do the job
* Determination (How badly he reacts to negativity like conceding a goal)

All of that is for one player and I've not even mentioned Marking, Tackling, Positioning. This is for one player. If you take that and apply for all players, the amount of things which can go wrong is way more than you think.

Then you've got the hidden attributes, Morale, Form, mindset with team talk. If you have risky tactical instructions on top of that a team will crumble like they're nothing.

 

 

Edited February 15 by saiyaman

[Muja]

10 minuti fa, Costav ha scritto:

But I think that compare the Juventus style to park the bus is not really fear. I would say more that they play (mainly) "Standard" while still 0-0 (with lo defensive block) and then switch to "Defensive" when leading. 

It's "standard" for the very first 10 minutes and then it's catenaccio all the way to the end, whether we score or not  lol 
We basically only score from set pieces and corners. 
And god, do I hate it  

[Rodrigogc]

8 minutos atrás, saiyaman disse:

I'm late to this but I want to add that as much as people put tactics on a pedestal, it's half the job.

There are other factors like attributes:

* Concentration (How well the player stays alert when parking the bus)

* Work Rate (Does he even keep working till the end?) plus does he have the Stamina to do the job
* Determination (How badly he reacts to negativity like conceding a goal)

All of that is for one player and I've not even mentioned Marking, Tackling, Positioning. This is for one player. If you take that and apply for all players, the amount of things which can go wrong is way more than you think.

Then you've got the hidden attributes, Morale, Form, mindset with team talk. If you have risky tactical instructions on top of that a team will crumble like they're nothing.

 

 

But it should be the other way around. Finding players with physicals and mentals to play defensive football is easier than finding players with technicals, mentals and physicals to play attacking football. To defend you don't need technical attributes. Why is it harder than to attack ? 

The very reason why the highest paid footballers are attackers is pretty obvious. It is hard to play attacking style, but no in FM. I play Fulham, Adama traore has got stupid technical and mental attributes, still rules EPL. 

These attributes you said, you can find players with good determination, work rate, concentration in Italian Calcio Serie B. Can you find Vinicius Junior, De Bruyne, Salah anywhere ? No. Why is it so easy to attack then ? 

Every winger with good physicals rule FM, see how Dembele performs in the game. 

Edited February 15 by Rodrigogc

[Muja]

5 minuti fa, saiyaman ha scritto:

There are other factors like attributes:

But all the tests in FM Arena are done with all the players with the same attributes.
And they try to isolate other variables as much as possible, by freezing morale, happiness, fitness, and so on.
It's not a perfect science, but it's enough to give you a general feeling.

And I did my own tests on top of that, testing specific styles with very specific players.

I do lots of tests. My real obsession is the number 10 position, still haven't found a way to make it work the way I'd like.

[saiyaman]

5 minutes ago, Rodrigogc said:

But it should be the other way around. Finding players with physicals and mentals to play defensive football is easier than finding players with technicals, mentals and physicals to play attacking football. To defend you don't need technical attributes. Why is it harder than to attack ? 

The very reason why the highest paid footballers are attackers is pretty obvious. It is hard to play attacking style, but no in FM. I play Fulham, Adama traore has got stupid technical and mental attributes, still rules EPL. 

These attributes you said, you can find players with good determination, work rate, concentration in Italian Calcio Serie B. Can you find Vinicius Junior, De Bruyne, Salah anywhere ? No. Why is it so easy to attack them ? 

Every winger with good physicals rule FM, see how Dembele performs in the game. 

I think there is a problem in the match engine where defensive play is not represented to the extent where it is good. I've seen defenders running away from the ball sometimes. It's probably a bug which allows more attackers to be free.

  

1 minute ago, Muja said:

But all the tests in FM Arena are done with all the players with the same attributes.
And they try to isolate other variables as much as possible, by freezing morale, happiness, fitness, and so on.
It's not a perfect science, but it's enough to give you a general feeling.

And I did my own tests on top of that, testing specific styles with very specific players.

I do lots of tests. My real obsession is the number 10 position, still haven't found a way to make it work the way I'd like.

I'm not sure how much RNG is coded into FM because Football in real life can mean you being on good form and considered the top player in the world only to go on a bad run of games.

Edited February 15 by saiyaman

[Rodrigogc]

Agora, saiyaman disse:

I think there is a problem in the match engine where defensive play is not represented to the extent where it is good. I've seen defenders running away from the ball sometimes. It's probably a bug which allows more attackers to be free.

 

Yes, that's the point. Defenders are stupid. Running away, heading the ball away without any pressing, Goalkeepers touching the ball away to his own corner, players not closing down space, passive defending in set pieces...

That is why catenaccio and park the bus don't work, because the ME has got major flaws when in comes to defending. 

[saiyaman]

1 minute ago, Rodrigogc said:

Yes, that's the point. Defenders are stupid. Running away, heading the ball away without any pressing, Goalkeepers touching the ball away to his own corner, players not closing down space, passive defending in set pieces...

That is why catenaccio and park the bus don't work, because the ME has got major flaws when in comes to defending. 

I'm not sure how many would agree with me but I consider Park the Bus and Gegenpressing to be extremes on the opposite ends.

Both are high level intensity, high pressure and very risky to have them be played for 90 minutes

[herne79]

23 minutes ago, Muja said:

What's the use of examples that don't work?

Well there we have the issue.  They can work.  Not all as effectively as each other, not all to the extent where you can greatly overachieve, and certainly not to the extent where the testing carried out that you linked can show effective results.  But, so long as you actually manage your team through a season, without holidaying or skipping matches, it is perfectly possible to do what you say is impossible.  Not all the time or with just any club, because the tactics are not plug n play and will require additional tinkering, but they can work.

I agree (and have previously said) about how are new players supposed to then move on and adapt, but that is primarily down to the poor in game information and a steep learning curve.

[Rodrigogc]

8 minutos atrás, saiyaman disse:

I'm not sure how many would agree with me but I consider Park the Bus and Gegenpressing to be extremes on the opposite ends.

Both are high level intensity, high pressure and very risky to have them be played for 90 minutes

Totally agree. That risk is not reflected in the game though. Gegenpress rewards too much, park the bus punishes too much. You can gegenpress your way to the top without having the proper team to do so, meanwhile you will park the bus your way to the bottom even if you are managing Juventus. 

Juventus was relegated in my save, it simply should not happen. 

I mean, not even klopp gegenpresses the way he did few years ago anymore.

Edited February 15 by Rodrigogc

[saiyaman]

1 minute ago, herne79 said:

But, so long as you actually manage your team through a season, without holidaying or skipping matches, it is perfectly possible to do what you say is impossible.  Not all the time or with just any club, because the tactics are not plug n play and will require additional tinkering, but they can work.

I agree (and have previously said) about how are new players supposed to then move on and adapt, but that is primarily down to the poor in game information and a steep learning curve.

This is an excellent point and is something I've experienced when I took the lazy way out: Putting the match on lower highlights being overconfident and got punished by tactical changes and subs from the opposing team.

If you want to give yourself the best chance of winning, make sure you have match highlights on extended at the minimum. You need to see what is going wrong leading to a chance not be satisfied with what caused the goal.

[Rodrigogc]

18 minutos atrás, Muja disse:

But all the tests in FM Arena are done with all the players with the same attributes.
And they try to isolate other variables as much as possible, by freezing morale, happiness, fitness, and so on.
It's not a perfect science, but it's enough to give you a general feeling.

And I did my own tests on top of that, testing specific styles with very specific players.

I do lots of tests. My real obsession is the number 10 position, still haven't found a way to make it work the way I'd like.

I've been obssessed about the number 10 as well. I got my 10 AMC to perform numerous times, usually playing 4231, but even though he was scoring and assisting, it wasn't the way I expected. I'm talking about the final through/threaded passes around the opposition area. Almost never happens. 

[saiyaman]

6 minutes ago, Rodrigogc said:

I've been obssessed about the number 10 as well. I got my 10 AMC to perform numerous times, usually playing 4231, but even though he was scoring and assisting, it wasn't the way I expected. I'm talking about the final through/threaded passes around the opposition area. Almost never happens. 

I have the same tactic since FM14 and I've had success with a Advanced Playmaker (S/A). Usually a Advanced Forward in front.

I look for Composure, Decisions, Vision, Anticipation, Technique, Passing and accept mediocre attributes in others. Good flair and other physicals are a bonus along with "Tries killer balls often"

[Rodrigogc]

4 minutos atrás, saiyaman disse:

I have the same tactic since FM14 and I've had success with a Advanced Playmaker (S/A). Usually a Advanced Forward in front.

I look for Composure, Decisions, Vision, Anticipation, Technique, Passing and accept mediocre attributes in others. Good flair and other physicals are a bonus along with "Tries killer balls often"

Do you use the standard role, without any Individual instructions ? Tactics with wingers cutting inside or running down the flanks ?

[saiyaman]

5 minutes ago, Rodrigogc said:

Do you use the standard role, without any Individual instructions ? Tactics with wingers cutting inside or running down the flanks ?

I think my tactic should give a better context.

In order to maximize the times my AMC can attempt through balls, I play two Inside Forwards on Attack with the Advanced Forward. My midfield is a Box to Box (Worst case Deep lying playmaker) who also benefits

Also my tactical instructions are simple: Pass Into Space, Work Ball inside the box with a low tempo. And little to no individual instructions.

Edited February 15 by saiyaman

[wazzaflow10]

39 minutes ago, Muja said:

Lol, I know the ins and outs of this game. That's why I can see the flaws in it.
If anything, my problem is I overachieve too soon and it gets boring fast. I'm always finding new ways of limiting myself, like letting the DoF take care of the whole transfer business

Are you really that good when you take a tactic from a forum that breaks the match engine on purpose and plug it into your team? That's cool if it's your game and how you want to play. But if you're as good as you claim you should be able to take something other than an exploiting gegenpress and win. 

Sorry I don't buy the "i'm just trying to be altruistic and thinking about the poor new players who can't make out of the box tactics work" angle. If you know the ins and outs of this game you wouldn't be claiming its impossible to play any other style.

52 minutes ago, Muja said:

Just the opposite, if one style works better than all the others no matter what players you have, that's what makes tactics irrelevant.
Just use gegenpress and play. Where's the fun in that?

The one style that happens to be what most teams are trying to implement? Its no wonder it works better because they have players that will work better in that system than others. They've already been built for it. Asking them to play a completely different style is going to end in failure more often than not. There are absolutely areas FM can improve in terms of being more direct in counter attacking situations or finding space in teams that are pressing too high to punish tactics that are too aggressive. It does happen but there's a limit to where the game recognizes something is over aggressive vs something is so extreme it can't handle the inputs.

 

 

 

[Muja]

35 minuti fa, wazzaflow10 ha scritto:

Are you really that good when you take a tactic from a forum that breaks the match engine on purpose and plug it into your team? If you know the ins and outs of this game you wouldn't be claiming its impossible to play any other style.

Now you're just making things up.
I make my own tactics, thank you very much, and I can make any shape and style work by this point. You probably didn't read a single word of what I wrote.

The ONLY reason I started talking about presets is to say that playing with any style

Quote

is possible, but you accomplish it with instructions that in theory don't make sense and seem counterintuitive

and

Quote

the tactics built following the logic THAT THE GAME ITSELF ADVISES, do not work.

Staying with the example of the "parking the bus" preset, thinking that you can defend a lead with a low block and low pressing is very much wrong, even though the game itself advises it, even if these instructions are in one of the presets that SHOULD help you achieve a clean sheet, and yet it's the preset that makes you concede the most goals of all.
My point is that defending with a low block and low pressing SHOULD be the most efficient way to defend, as it is in reality, and yet in the game, it's not.
 

35 minuti fa, wazzaflow10 ha scritto:

The one style that happens to be what most teams are trying to implement? Its no wonder it works better because they have players that will work better in that system than others. They've already been built for it. Asking them to play a completely different style is going to end in failure more often than not.

Who said I'm trying to park the bus with Manchester City?
I went as far as creating the perfect team for that style with the editor. It still doesn't work. Not with a low block and low pressing.  Not as much as it should. If you use those instructions, you're practically giving yourself a handicap.

Besides, as many others have said, defending in football is much easier than attacking. It shouldn't be so hard to have the perfect players for defending styles.

1 ora fa, saiyaman ha scritto:

I'm not sure how much RNG is coded into FM because Football in real life can mean you being on good form and considered the top player in the world only to go on a bad run of games.

That's why they test each tactic over 1200 games, to reduce RNG as much as possible. Because there's certainly some random element in the game, there's no denying that. And it's a good thing, of course.

1 ora fa, herne79 ha scritto:

Well there we have the issue.  They can work.  

Not as they are, though. 
What I've tried to explain in all my comments so far, perhaps failing miserably, is that it would make MUCH more sense to give new players functional, "finished" presets.
Not overpowered, of course, but good enough to allow newcomers to play the way they want right away and learn through an example THAT WORKS, and then adapt it as they see fit.

And since it's the most sensible thing to do, and also relatively easy, I think the only reason SI doesn't do it is not to maintain a "sense of challenge", which actually quickly turns into frustration for newbies, but to not reveal their cards and openly declare that, for example, low block and low pressing DON'T WORK in this ME, or at least not as they should.

Perhaps this time I've explained myself better?

Edited February 15 by Muja

[Muja]

1 ora fa, Rodrigogc ha scritto:

I've been obssessed about the number 10 as well. I got my 10 AMC to perform numerous times, usually playing 4231, but even though he was scoring and assisting, it wasn't the way I expected. I'm talking about the final through/threaded passes around the opposition area. Almost never happens. 

Exactly!
I've been experimenting A LOT and I've been on the verge of giving up more than once.
... But then I try again  

[Mitja]

1 hour ago, Muja said:

Now you're just making things up.
I make my own tactics, thank you very much, and I can make any shape and style work by this point. You probably didn't read a single word of what I wrote.

The ONLY reason I started talking about presets is to say that playing with any style

and

Staying with the example of the "parking the bus" preset, thinking that you can defend a lead with a low block and low pressing is very much wrong, even though the game itself advises it, even if these instructions are in one of the presets that SHOULD help you achieve a clean sheet, and yet it's the preset that makes you concede the most goals of all.
My point is that defending with a low block and low pressing SHOULD be the most efficient way to defend, as it is in reality, and yet in the game, it's not.
 

Who said I'm trying to park the bus with Manchester City?
I went as far as creating the perfect team for that style with the editor. It still doesn't work. Not with a low block and low pressing.  Not as much as it should. If you use those instructions, you're practically giving yourself a handicap.

Besides, as many others have said, defending in football is much easier than attacking. It shouldn't be so hard to have the perfect players for defending styles.

That's why they test each tactic over 1200 games, to reduce RNG as much as possible. Because there's certainly some random element in the game, there's no denying that. And it's a good thing, of course.

Not as they are, though. 
What I've tried to explain in all my comments so far, perhaps failing miserably, is that it would make MUCH more sense to give new players functional, "finished" presets.
Not overpowered, of course, but good enough to allow newcomers to play the way they want right away and learn through an example THAT WORKS, and then adapt it as they see fit.

And since it's the most sensible thing to do, and also relatively easy, I think the only reason SI doesn't do it is not to maintain a "sense of challenge", which actually quickly turns into frustration for newbies, but to not reveal their cards and openly declare that, for example, low block and low pressing DON'T WORK in this ME, or at least not as they should.

Perhaps this time I've explained myself better?

I'm not sure it's the low block defending that's responsible for "defensive" tactics being ineffective. Play that park the bus on higher mentalities and you'll instantly get better results. Such tactics use too many passive instructions and on top of that employ defensive mentality which only enhance  passive approach. Just like in attacking tactics there should be some counterbalancing hopefully we'll see it in future. It's more concerning that you need to max every instruction than defensive tactics being underperforming.

 

 

Edited February 15 by Mitja

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Muja said:

Not as they are, though.

Yes, as they are.  Carry on to the rest of the paragraph that you quoted me from and you’ll see.  As I said, not all the time because they’re not plug n play, and not if you ‘re going to holiday or skip matches, but it can be possible.

Anyway, we’re just going round in circles so lets move on.

[Muja]

1 ora fa, Mitja ha scritto:

I'm not sure it's the low block defending that's responsible for "defensive" tactics being ineffective. Play that park the bus on higher mentalities and you'll instantly get better results. Such tactics use too many passive instructions and on top of that employ defensive mentality which only enhance  passive approach.

Yeah, you're right. Attacking mentalities are also good for counter-attacking strategies, and they can help with moving the ball forward with more urgency. 
In fact, it's not really the low block that's the problem, but if you're not pressing often or very often, you're shooting yourself in the foot. 

1 ora fa, herne79 ha scritto:

Yes, as they are.
[...]
As I said, not all the time because they’re not plug n play, and not if you ‘re going to holiday or skip matches, but it can be possible.

So, basically, they work as they are... as long as you make continuous changes in every match, and based on the opponent, and change the mentality, and press more, etcetera etcetera 

Here's a tactic made in the catenaccio style.

You won't find an identical one online anywhere because I made it, and it's not a meta-tactic because it doesn't guarantee extraordinary results... for starters, it scores very little. 
If your team is the strongest in the league, you might even win it, scoring little but conceding even less, in true Allegri-style (but you'll need a bit of luck).

I'm not claiming it to be perfect but, in any case, it fulfills its only task very well: limiting goals conceded to a minimum. It's one of the tactics I use when I need to defend a lead, with a guaranteed result - within normal limits.

It wouldn't cost SI two seconds to include such a tactic among the catenaccio presets. But they don't, and if you look at the instructions, you might understand why.
If you watch the matches, it plays exactly as a catenaccio style is supposed to, but In theory, it shouldn't work like that. In many areas it goes against the "dictates of the manual."

Putting this tactic in the catenaccio presets would be like saying "hey guys, even the most defensive preset tactic doesn't use one of the defensive mentalities, or "less often trigger press", 'cause they're pretty much useless instructions or even detrimental in this ME".

It would be almost like publicly admitting that the ME is unbalanced.

1 ora fa, Mitja ha scritto:

hopefully we'll see it in future.

I'm sincerely hoping that with the transition to Unity, they will take the opportunity to finally iron out some recurring flaws of the ME, such as the excessive importance given to crosses and wing play and the resulting lack of central play in the final third, and that they will finally provide greater balance so that all tactical styles are more or less usable in a coherent form.

But if they are thinking of simply translating all the code as it is into a new language, these problems won't disappear - heck, new ones might appear.

Though, if the ME were to become moddable... Oh, I would jump for joy.

Edited February 15 by Muja

[herne79]

55 minutes ago, Muja said:

So, basically, they work as they are... as long as you make continuous changes in every match, and based on the opponent, and change the mentality, and press more, etcetera etcetera 

No, I didn’t say that in my post which you are quoting.  I said manage your team through the season and don’t go on holiday.  Perhaps I need to be more specific so as to avoid your confusion - manage training, handle contracts, deal with morale and player issues. Make your own substitutions and handle team talks.  I didn’t say anything in that post about making continuous changes in every match, let alone changing mentality, pressing etcetera etcetera 

We can of course make such changes match to match, and I’d recommend doing so if we want to do much more than achieve basic targets, but presets can still be usable without that.  In doing so we need to manage our expectations.  Asking a team battling to avoid relegation to use the Counter Attacking preset is perfectly valid to do so.  But expect to be in a relegation battle if you do.

1 hour ago, Muja said:

Here's a tactic made in the catenaccio style

Ok?  Various other attempts at the style - both traditional and more modern - have been written about and discussed in the Tactics forum for years.  The one in the game is SI’s basic attempt.  All can work to greater or lesser extents.  You don’t agree with that, at least about the systems in game, but that doesn’t make it invalid.  You’ve found they don’t work for you, others have found they can work.  Better information would be useful in game to help people - newcomers or otherwise - to help identify and rectify issues but the presets are what they are: a usable starting point.

Personally I think presets should never have been included in the game, for the exact reason you and others are demonstrating.  I know why SI included them (and not just because the community asked for them let’s not forget) but for me making the tactic creator more intuitive and user friendly would have been better with greater clarity in game of what things do.  Just my opinion.

Well there we are.  Circles, more circles and I’m not following my own advice.  I will now.

[Rodrigogc]

42 minutos atrás, herne79 disse:

 

Personally I think presets should never have been included in the game, for the exact reason you and others are demonstrating.  I know why SI included them (and not just because the community asked for them let’s not forget) but for me making the tactic creator more intuitive and user friendly would have been better with greater clarity in game of what things do.  Just my opinion.

 

You are right here, and that is SI's fault. They should be concentrating in making the game more intuitive in general, FM is still a lot of mess in terms of information. They throw supporters useless "tweets" on your screen, but you still have to figure out where to click to see how good your players's weak foot is. The tactic creator is terrible indeed, presets cause confusion and most instructions you can't take their description literally. I'm an experienced player and I find the game confusing these days, wonder what newcomers might think... 

 

I have friends who've stopped playing the game in FM18 and have been playing CM 01/02 updated because they find the game has become just busywork, and I can't disagree with them. I still play because I love FM, but seems every year there's more and more buttons to click and the fun is being chased away. There's too much useless information, sometimes I miss the brevity and simplicity of FM08..

 

One thing I've been thinking for many years, FM is almost a point and click game, why don't they let us customize every screen in the game to see what we want instead of having to find skins or learn to reskin the game ?

Edited February 16 by Rodrigogc

[Mitja]

9 hours ago, Muja said:

It wouldn't cost SI two seconds to include such a tactic among the catenaccio presets. But they don't, and if you look at the instructions, you might understand why.

If you watch the matches, it plays exactly as a catenaccio style is supposed to, but In theory, it shouldn't work like that. In many areas it goes against the "dictates of the manual."

Though, if the ME were to become moddable... Oh, I would jump for joy.

I think SI would do themselves a favour if they simplified tactics creator. There are more styles in FM than in real life with all combinations of team instructions and mentality it became a mess. Some styles don't work simply because they are not doing its job compared to what's being claimed in description like defensive ones we discussed. For example there's is no defensive possession football irl but in FM any tactics on lower mentalities turns into that. Tools are there but they aren't being used carefully. 

[Costav]

1 hour ago, Mitja said:

I think SI would do themselves a favour if they simplified tactics creator. There are more styles in FM than in real life with all combinations of team instructions and mentality it became a mess. Some styles don't work simply because they are not doing its job compared to what's being claimed in description like defensive ones we discussed. For example there's is no defensive possession football irl but in FM any tactics on lower mentalities turns into that. Tools are there but they aren't being used carefully. 

I am sorry, but tactics in FM are almost elementary. You basically have limited options. You cannot defend in an alternative way other than you basic 11 structure. IRL there are plenty of cases when in phase of possession you change your disposition on the filed, and then you change it back when out of possession of the ball....
They added the inverted wing this year and this is something, but when you look only at the premier league it is difficult to carry in the game the state of art of football tactics.

[Muja]

9 ore fa, herne79 ha scritto:

Well there we are.  Circles, more circles

We keep going in circles because fundamentally we don't agree on the main point of the issue:

9 ore fa, herne79 ha scritto:

presets can still be usable

Nope, they can't. 

You yourself just a page ago said that presets don't work as they are because they are not "finished articles", whatever that means.
If you use the preset counter-attack tactic with a team battling for relegation... You'll get relegated, even if you micro-manage everything, and probably get sacked before you can finish the season.

So this discussion will keep going on in circles until you admit the objective reality that presets don't work as they should, because in theory all the instructions make sense and SHOULD work, but an unbalanced ME doesn't allow them to.

Presets should be FUNCTIONING EXAMPLES of a style to help new players understand how to set up a basic tactic.
Like the tactic I posted before, which certainly isn't the best possible, but it WORKS well enough to fulfill that role.
If the presets don't serve this purpose, they're useless. 

9 ore fa, herne79 ha scritto:

Personally I think presets should never have been included in the game

Or they could remove them altogether and make even more inaccessible a game that already has a fairly elitist aura as it is 

2 ore fa, Mitja ha scritto:

I think SI would do themselves a favour if they simplified tactics creator. 

55 minuti fa, Costav ha scritto:

I am sorry, but tactics in FM are almost elementary. IRL there are plenty of cases when in phase of possession you change your disposition on the filed, and then you change it back when out of possession of the ball....

I kinda agree with both of you.
If it were up to me, now that there's an opportunity to rewrite it from scratch, I would simplify the ME entirely and eliminate unnecessary and/or redundant concepts, such as mentality, which are cumbersome and ancient relics from the early prototypes.

And I would focus the tactic creator on the positions and movements of players in possession and out of possession (distinguishing between the start of a play and when reaching the final third) in a way that's clear and concise, as I think that is one of, if not THE most important aspect of any tactic in modern football.

Edited February 16 by Muja

[Rodrigogc]

1 hora atrás, Costav disse:

I am sorry, but tactics in FM are almost elementary. You basically have limited options. You cannot defend in an alternative way other than you basic 11 structure. IRL there are plenty of cases when in phase of possession you change your disposition on the filed, and then you change it back when out of possession of the ball....
They added the inverted wing this year and this is something, but when you look only at the premier league it is difficult to carry in the game the state of art of football tactics.

This is something that should have been implemented years ago. Not to mention indirect free kicks..

Maybe the limitations of the engine have kept them from taking a leap forward, I hope with the new engine SI considers it. With the proper mindset they can focus on what matters, simplify what needs to be simplified and have their ME to operate closer to what football in real life is about.

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Muja said:

Nope, they can't. 

You yourself just a page ago said that presets don't work as they are because they are not "finished articles"

Now you’re cherry picking and making inferences, meaning I need to reply again.

Yes, I said presets are not designed to be plug and play tactics and are merely starting points.  I also said they can sometimes just work (note “can”, not “will”) but expectations need to be managed accordingly.

So yes, they can.  I say that based on my own (and other’s) testing and guidance given to others who successfully used them.  You disagree.  Ok, what testing have you personally done to come to that conclusion?  Of course it may just be that you tried it once, it didn’t work for you which led you to state this.  And that’s fine - as said they can sometimes work, but not always straight out of the box.

1 hour ago, Muja said:

So this discussion will keep going on in circles until you admit the objective reality that presets don't work as they should, because in theory all the instructions make sense and SHOULD work, but an unbalanced ME doesn't allow them to

As said, the objective reality of my own (and other’s) testing shows they do perform as intended.  That intention being to provide a basic framework as a starting point which can work more or less depending on the situation.  In fact it’s not just me who carried out testing.  Others contributed as well (much more than I did) and whilst there were some outliers (as there always is during testing) overall this was the conclusion drawn.  That’s the objective reality based on extensive testing.  I’m yet to see anything which contradicts that so if you have extensive testing which shows otherwise, please share it.  And please don’t refer to the FM Arena testing again you previously shared as I’ve already said why that testing is flawed in this particular instance.

[Muja]

25 minuti fa, herne79 ha scritto:

As said, the objective reality of my own (and other’s) testing shows they do perform as intended.  That intention being to provide a basic framework as a starting point which can work more or less depending on the situation. 

That sentence is so vague, it can mean anything and nothing.
Okay then, before I tell you which tests I've done, explain to me specifically which tests you have done.

Let's take the parking the bus preset.
What tests have you conducted? What was the purpose of the test, and what acceptable conclusion did you reach?
Was it about whether that preset can help defend a lead in the last 10 minutes of a match? In how many cases, at what percentage?

[Costav]

1 hour ago, Rodrigogc said:

This is something that should have been implemented years ago. Not to mention indirect free kicks..

Maybe the limitations of the engine have kept them from taking a leap forward, I hope with the new engine SI considers it. With the proper mindset they can focus on what matters, simplify what needs to be simplified and have their ME to operate closer to what football in real life is about.

You're right. I also believe that, and I would not like to sound too pretentious, being FM a game with a strong English-root, the baseline is the premier league. 
There are plenty of examples of tactics developed in the last decades that are not even considered in the game, while when Sheffield (I thought it was Wednesday but I am not sure) brought on the pitch the wide-center back immediately they translate it into the game, e so they did for Ruben Dias in Man City. This is a limitation because football (especially for the tactic world) is not represented by the Premier League (which tactically is not the benchmark).
In addition, another tactical limit is the field of tactic assimilation for new players. If you think about it, there is almost no learning curve when you buy a new layer, and you can directly put it into your tactics and he will perform very well.
Even the board dynamic is very english-based: In Italy, for example, 4/5 matches not very well and you are questioned and you risk your position. To see the firsts sacking in the game you need to wait until late November/early December for very dangerous situations.
Those are limitations that break a bit the immersion. Of course there are a lot of things that work and I (as well as others, I guess) am happy with them.

Edited February 16 by Costav

[Rodrigogc]

9 minutos atrás, Costav disse:

You're right. I also believe that, and I would not like to sound too pretentious, being FM a game with a strong English-root, the baseline is the premier league. 
There are plenty of examples of tactics developed in the last decades that are not even considered in the game, while when Sheffield (I thought it was Wednesday but I am not sure) brought on the pitch the wide-center back immediately they translate it into the game, e so they did for Ruben Dias in Man City. That is a limitation, as well as the limited development in the field of tactic assimilation for new players. If you think about it, there is almost no learning curve when you buy a new layer, and you can directly put it into your tactics and he will perform very well.
Even the board dynamic is very english-based: In Italy, for example, 4/5 matches not very well and you are questioned and you risk your position. To see the firsts sacking in the game you need to wait until late November/early December for very dangerous situations.
Those are limitations that break a bit the immersion. Of course there are a lot of things that work and I (as well as others, I guess) am happy with them.

I'm sure SI has considered all of these suggestions of yours, but they are a company and have to leave room for improvement every year so they have a reason to release a new version, hence more sales... We all know what the business is about. 

The fact is that FM is not growing in terms of realism and logic the way it should, and it's been years. See the Data Hub, it's been years it's been implemented, and it is just a mess of information that you cannot connect properly to use to your advantage. 

It's been a few years that I've been buying players that are weaker than I have money to buy to make the game harder because, like you said, there is no challenge. You set the player in and he performs. IRL many players who cost loads of money don't work simply because they don't work, like Hazard in Real Madrid. Buying him was a logical decision, and in FM he would have ruled the league playing for Madrid, but IRL it simply didn't work. That's what real football is. 

In the end I understand how hard it must be to SI having to balance a realistic simulator without taking the fun out of it, since it is a game. Football is too complex. 

[Costav]

1 minute ago, Rodrigogc said:

I'm sure SI has considered all of these suggestions of yours, but they are a company and have to leave room for improvement every year so they have a reason to release a new version, hence more sales... We all know what the business is about. 

The fact is that FM is not growing in terms of realism and logic the way it should, and it's been years. See the Data Hub, it's been years it's been implemented, and it is just a mess of information that you cannot connect properly to use to your advantage. 

It's been a few years that I've been buying players that are weaker than I have money to buy to make the game harder because, like you said, there is no challenge. You set the player in and he performs. IRL many players who cost loads of money don't work simply because they don't work, like Hazard in Real Madrid. Buying him was a logical decision, and in FM he would have ruled the league playing for Madrid, but IRL it simply didn't work. That's what real football is. 

In the end I understand how hard it must be to SI having to balance a realistic simulator without taking the fun out of it, since it is a game. Football is too complex. 

I absolute agree with you. That's why, in order to improve the difficulty, I decided to remove quality data from my players (and from the staff). I did not change the skin, but I made the attributes disappear using the color palette.
Since then I found the game realistically challenging, and I need to rely only on the octagonal distribution of attributes, staff reports and individual comparison to choose players. 
I would strongly suggest to try it. I found the game more interesting and, finally, I made some mistakes on the market. I can remember that before this change my only mistake on the transfer market in 20 years of FM was buying once Giroud that scored 2 goals in the first half of the season. Otherwise every transfer season was really easy. Now I need to investigate very well players to buy them, and sometimes I cannot buy them because I am too late or I just cannot take a decision based on the knowledge I have.

This not to mention that matches are now more complex and unpredictable

[herne79]

32 minutes ago, Muja said:

That sentence is so vague, it can mean anything and nothing.
Okay then, before I tell you which tests I've done, explain to me specifically which tests you have done.

Let's take the parking the bus preset.
What tests have you conducted? What was the purpose of the test, and what acceptable conclusion did you reach?
Was it about whether that preset can help defend a lead in the last 10 minutes of a match? In how many cases, at what percentage?

Why before?  Odd.

Anyway, I was part of a team that conducted literally 000’s of hours of pre-release tests under all manner of scenarios across lots of different clubs.  You mention Parking the Bus so ok - again many varied scenarios such as (but not limited to): the closing stages of cup matches where players may feel more pressured than usual; regular league matches across all kinds of scenarios such as end of season relegation fights, top of the table clashes and mid table matches where results would have no impact on league position; using the basic tactic for full 90 mins, last 10 and lots inbetween; making tweaks to the tactic to suit different player availability.  These tests are not done to merely pick a club and see what happens.  The type of match is also important as is the type of player, their personalities, interaction and standing with the manager, morale, reaction to team talks, and other factors which all contribute to ME calculations and thus need testing.  It’s much much more than just pick a tactic and holiday for 10 years because so many factors can have an influence on results.

I no longer have access to percentages but it was around average - some would see out the closing stages of a match, some wouldn’t which is about right because the intention was never to release a tactic which would always work.  Only SI would be able to share actual data because 1) it’s their IP and 2) testers help out under the terms of an NDA.

Now, every single scenario with every single club and player cannot be tested.  This is why I say if others have more testing to contribute it needs to shared and verified.  This can (and has) led to changes in the game.  So if you do have lots of data to share, the best way is probably to open a bug report and upload all of your data so that SI can take a look and (potentially) make changes accordingly.

[Mitja]

4 hours ago, Costav said:

I am sorry, but tactics in FM are almost elementary. You basically have limited options. You cannot defend in an alternative way other than you basic 11 structure. IRL there are plenty of cases when in phase of possession you change your disposition on the filed, and then you change it back when out of possession of the ball....
They added the inverted wing this year and this is something, but when you look only at the premier league it is difficult to carry in the game the state of art of football tactics.

You are talking about defensive and attacking shape/formation which doesn't have much to do with football style. SI stated they are not inclined to introduce separate def/att formations. With positional play and careful role selection you can achieve similar stuff in more dynamic manner. I agree there are limited options but also there are things unnecessary too complicated. And there is stuff that works differently than what is being claimed.

[Costav]

29 minutes ago, Mitja said:

You are talking about defensive and attacking shape/formation which doesn't have much to do with football style. SI stated they are not inclined to introduce separate def/att formations. With positional play and careful role selection you can achieve similar stuff in more dynamic manner. I agree there are limited options but also there are things unnecessary too complicated. And there is stuff that works differently than what is being claimed.

No no, I am not talking about American football when you have two different line-ups. Here I am talking about movement/disposition with or without ball. I am in the football world (and I study football too, because I like to coach and I have a followed courses from the italian FA) long enough to know that there are a looot of things that are currently implemented but that you cannot replicate in FM. I tried a lot of different tactical combinations, but the replication is very limited because the ME does not include such solutions (and I believe it is like this because such solutions are not even considered). And this is a pity because it would give another level of immersion.

I know that the majority of FM players (in a wider sense) are just interested in believing they can be Mourinho/Guardiola within a software, but the cool thing of FM is that the game replicates (or at least try to) the RL in a very comprehensive way, and this is very good! So when I hear comments like SI needs to simplify tactics  because "there are more styles in FM than in real life" or "there's is no defensive possession football irl" I am like "ooookaaaaaay, let's turn off Fifa and talk about coaching a team".

Then I know it's a game, and I don't pretend they will exploit every single minimal possibility that can be applied in real life. It's fair enough as the game is right now, although a bit more of tactical improvement could be very welcome.

p.s. Of course this is absolutely not personal, I would not like to sound like I am addressing directly to you even if am answering to a conversation I am having with you. It is more as a general comment

Edited February 16 by Costav

[Jonthedon26]

20 hours ago, DarJ said:

@batsy23 I've only read the first page so far and while I do agree that sometimes the game can seem like you're finding a meta instead of managing a football team, I still think that other systems work as well. The tactic below is what I'm using at the moment (ignore the players. I also don't know why it says "custom vertical tiki-taka as I didn't touch any of the presets) and I wouldn't call it a meta tactic and it has been working very well so far, the lines are not super high, I'm not using low crossing or high tempo either the only roles that change in some games are the RPM and WB to DLP and WB on support. It's not a plug and play system either because I tried it in a different save I carried over from FM23 with a struggling semi-pro team and it didn't help at all

 

 

Isn't this just another example of what is being talked about? Whilst it isn't as extreme as some, it still seems like the most success is had playing positive, counter, counter-press, higher defensive line and trigger press more often. 

I play as Birmingham City every version as they are the team I support. On FM23 I managed to get a good  442 wing play formation to work, that involved regrouping and sitting behind the ball. This year I tried the same tactic and it was horrible, so I switched it up (kept the 442 wing play) and had some success, losing in the playoffs first season. Second season I started well and was top by about November but then went on a bit of a slump and I simply couldn't score a goal, kept drawing 0-0. I decided to try the high press and low cross combination and no word of a lie I scored something ridiculous like 19 goals in 4 games, I had to revert back to my old tactic as it seemed way too overpowered, I was crushing teams. 

[Muja]

41 minuti fa, herne79 ha scritto:

Why before?  Odd.

I'll get to it.

52 minuti fa, herne79 ha scritto:

It’s much much more than just pick a tactic and holiday for 10 years

God, who would ever test things like that? That'd be moronic. 
That's not what FM Arena does, either, you know.
 

41 minuti fa, herne79 ha scritto:

Anyway, I was part of a team that conducted literally 000’s of hours of pre-release tests under all manner of scenarios across lots of different clubs.  You mention Parking the Bus so ok - again many varied scenarios such as (but not limited to): the closing stages of cup matches where players may feel more pressured than usual; regular league matches across all kinds of scenarios such as end of season relegation fights, top of the table clashes and mid table matches where results would have no impact on league position; using the basic tactic for full 90 mins, last 10 and lots inbetween; making tweaks to the tactic to suit different player availability.  These tests are not done to merely pick a club and see what happens.  The type of match is also important as is the type of player, their personalities, interaction and standing with the manager, morale, reaction to team talks, and other factors which all contribute to ME calculations and thus need testing. 

So you're telling me that you've conducted all these tests to conclude that the parking the bus preset can defend the result... sometimes, every now and then, depending on many other factors? 
You're telling me that no one ever thought to consider comparing, under the same conditions, the defensive effectiveness of a preset tactic whose main purpose is to defend, with that of other preset tactics?

If I were to tell you that, UNDER ALL OTHER CONDITIONS BEING EQUAL, the parking the bus preset tactic is the WORST AT DEFENDING compared to all other preset tactics, what would you say?

Would you be surprised?
Would you say it's irrelevant?
Or would you go as far as to say that it's normal?
(please don't say that it's normal)

[wazzaflow10]

15 minutes ago, Muja said:

I'll get to it.

[herne79]

14 minutes ago, Muja said:

I'll get to it.

God, who would ever test things like that? That'd be moronic. 
That's not what FM Arena does, either, you know.
 

So you're telling me that you've conducted all these tests to conclude that the parking the bus preset can defend the result... sometimes, every now and then, depending on many other factors? 
You're telling me that no one ever thought to consider comparing, under the same conditions, the defensive effectiveness of a preset tactic whose main purpose is to defend, with that of other preset tactics?

If I were to tell you that, UNDER ALL OTHER CONDITIONS BEING EQUAL, the parking the bus preset tactic is the WORST AT DEFENDING compared to all other preset tactics, what would you say?

Would you be surprised?
Would you say it's irrelevant?
Or would you go as far as to say that it's normal?
(please don't say that it's normal)

I’m done playing your games.

Clearly I haven’t gone into every iota of detail.  As I said, if you have data from testing start a bug report and give it all to SI to review.  If you want change to happen that’s the only way to get it done.

[Muja]

3 minuti fa, wazzaflow10 ha scritto:

Lol, man, you have a serious problem with text comprehension.

20 minuti fa, Muja ha scritto:

You're telling me that no one ever thought to consider comparing, under the same conditions, the defensive effectiveness of a preset tactic whose main purpose is to defend, with that of other preset tactics?

If I were to tell you that, UNDER ALL OTHER CONDITIONS BEING EQUAL, the parking the bus preset tactic is the WORST AT DEFENDING compared to all other preset tactics, what would you say?

 

 

[wazzaflow10]

Just now, Muja said:

Lol, man, you have a serious problem with text comprehension.

 

 

No just waiting for you to share your conclusions with actual data like asked. You're telling me things that you haven't tested.

[wazzaflow10]

7 hours ago, Mitja said:

I think SI would do themselves a favour if they simplified tactics creator. There are more styles in FM than in real life with all combinations of team instructions and mentality it became a mess. Some styles don't work simply because they are not doing its job compared to what's being claimed in description like defensive ones we discussed. For example there's is no defensive possession football irl but in FM any tactics on lower mentalities turns into that. Tools are there but they aren't being used carefully. 

I think we've talked about it before but it would be a very nice feature if they let you see the tactic in some sort of interactive practice session if you wanted. Could probably be part of the training sessions for tactical cohesion. Ok lads we're going to work on parking the bus in the last 10 minutes of the game. The session shows you in common patterns of play and you can craft your tactic based on those results. Completely skip-able if you don't want to see it or view it as working out the engine.

[whatsupdoc]

God we really didn't need a page of back and forth to debate whether sitting back concedes less than pushing up and pressing in fm24. 

Even when players are tired. Even in the 119th minute of a match. 

Trying it for even 15 minutes would be enough.

The main problem in 24.2 is the same as in 24.1 and 24.0: the defenders, (despite the fixes which improved things), still run off and mark rather than addressing the ball carrier when he's dribbling. They'll also run off an mark someone irrelevant when an attacker is about to receive a pass in a dangerous area. 

The closer you are to the goal when the above happens, the worse off you are.

Stuff like this but more extreme. You can't defend deep when this happens regularly. 

End of story. 

And yes, I've made bug reports with PKMs and Gifs. They're still sitting on "status: open".

Hopefully something they can get onto for fm25 otherwise we'll see the same nonsense on release.

Edited February 16 by whatsupdoc

[Rodrigogc]

17 minutos atrás, whatsupdoc disse:

God we really didn't need a page of back and forth to debate whether sitting back concedes less than pushing up and pressing in fm24. 

Even when players are tired. Even in the 119th minute of a match. 

Trying it for even 15 minutes would be enough.

The main problem in 24.2 is the same as in 24.1 and 24.0: the defenders, (despite the fixes which improved things), still run off and mark rather than addressing the ball carrier when he's dribbling. They'll also run off an mark someone irrelevant when an attacker is about to receiving a pass in a dangerous area. 

The closer you are to the goal when the above happens, the worse off you are.

Stuff like this but more extreme. You can't defend deep when this happens regularly. 

End of story. 

Jesus chris, what did I just see ?

I haven't played for 1 month but if this happens to me I quit the game right away. Seeing your defenders, even AI defenders behaving like this is a complete disgrace.

[Muja]

3 ore fa, herne79 ha scritto:

I’m done playing your games.

Way to dodge a question.

3 ore fa, wazzaflow10 ha scritto:

You're telling me things that you haven't tested.

Won't be the first time that you're wrong in this conversation.
I conducted numerous tests, in the hundreds, using the editor to create specific competitions with specific teams, isolating external variables as much as possible such as morale, happiness, fitness, and tactical knowledge with FMRTE.
They are not documented, except for a single Excel file full of numbers, because these tests were done for me only.
But if you want to see it, I'll upload the file from my other computer as soon as I get home.

Anyway, to make a long story short, my conclusion is:

3 ore fa, Muja ha scritto:

UNDER ALL OTHER CONDITIONS BEING EQUAL, the parking the bus preset tactic is the WORST AT DEFENDING compared to all other preset tactics

If you really need it, I can even redo the test in question and document it with save files and all, to provide you with more concrete evidence. It would only take a couple of days. 
But I simply don't believe that anything I can do will ever make you admit a reality that you keep denying even though it's already evident in itself.

Because, honestly...

1 ora fa, whatsupdoc ha scritto:

God we really didn't need a page of back and forth to debate whether sitting back concedes less than pushing up and pressing in fm24. 

Trying it for even 15 minutes would be enough.

What he said.

Edited February 16 by Muja

[whatsupdoc]

8 minutes ago, Rodrigogc said:

Jesus chris, what did I just see ?

I haven't played for 1 month but if this happens to me I quit the game right away. Seeing your defenders, even AI defenders behaving like this is a complete disgrace.

haha i've seen far worse. I'll make a horror reel for you from my next session