How to move away from crossing tactic to through ball (Man Utd)

[TehGoatLord]

I mostly only manage Manchester United on FM as a form of therapy from the team in real life. I am in my first season after a squad overhaul with Varane (83m) and Casemiro (40m) sold. 

During the first half of the season, I have been pretty much only stretching the play out wide and creating low crossing situations for my strikers or SS-a. 

While the tactic has been doing its job so far:

I feel that it's getting tougher and tougher to score with teams happy to sit back. 

I want to play a quick game where the team creates through ball opportunities from transitions. 

Whenever I try to attempt something similar, the players never find any space between the lines. The team transitions back to their settled defence and my players keep getting pushed wide. I tried using Rashford initially as AF-a ahead of Bruno as the AP-s but both of them would be marked out of the game after a transition. 

On the right wing, the IW-s or W-a would keep running into traffic, being pushed into the corner flag. Or they will receive the ball out wide near the halfway line, attempt a pass or dribble then lose the ball. Ideally, I would like my right wing to create through balls from out wide for the AF Hojland or Rashford to run onto, then either take a shot or cross towards the IF-s on the left side. 

The kind of style I am aiming for are the Jose Mourinho tactics at Chelsea where he would use a midblock 4-2-3-1 to devastating effect. 

Rashford with his workrate of 10 isn't exactly cut out for pressing up high either but this somehow just works. 

Here is my current tactic and squad. Sometimes the DM-s is set to SV-s against teams that use 5atb or sit back and park the bus. 

The DLP was RPM before but I found him too high up. The 2-2-6 attacking shape is basically a battering ram that helps build out from the back against high pressing opponents really well. But it's all so boring and crowded low crosses in the box feels too attritional.

 

What kind of tactic or changes would you go for based on the above?

 

++ Garnacho, Eriksen and Amrabat. 

 

[Andrew Marines]

1 ora fa, TehGoatLord ha scritto:

I mostly only manage Manchester United on FM as a form of therapy from the team in real life. I am in my first season after a squad overhaul with Varane (83m) and Casemiro (40m) sold. 

During the first half of the season, I have been pretty much only stretching the play out wide and creating low crossing situations for my strikers or SS-a. 

While the tactic has been doing its job so far:

I feel that it's getting tougher and tougher to score with teams happy to sit back. 

I want to play a quick game where the team creates through ball opportunities from transitions. 

Whenever I try to attempt something similar, the players never find any space between the lines. The team transitions back to their settled defence and my players keep getting pushed wide. I tried using Rashford initially as AF-a ahead of Bruno as the AP-s but both of them would be marked out of the game after a transition. 

On the right wing, the IW-s or W-a would keep running into traffic, being pushed into the corner flag. Or they will receive the ball out wide near the halfway line, attempt a pass or dribble then lose the ball. Ideally, I would like my right wing to create through balls from out wide for the AF Hojland or Rashford to run onto, then either take a shot or cross towards the IF-s on the left side. 

The kind of style I am aiming for are the Jose Mourinho tactics at Chelsea where he would use a midblock 4-2-3-1 to devastating effect. 

Rashford with his workrate of 10 isn't exactly cut out for pressing up high either but this somehow just works. 

Here is my current tactic and squad. Sometimes the DM-s is set to SV-s against teams that use 5atb or sit back and park the bus. 

The DLP was RPM before but I found him too high up. The 2-2-6 attacking shape is basically a battering ram that helps build out from the back against high pressing opponents really well. But it's all so boring and crowded low crosses in the box feels too attritional.

 

What kind of tactic or changes would you go for based on the above?

 

++ Garnacho, Eriksen and Amrabat. 

 

Love how you're trying to play!

It's a bit risky to suggest something without any in-game screenshots/videos to see the issues...

You sure the 4231 is the easiest tactic to use in this situation?

Your players are positioning themselves in a good way right from the start of the action?

[TehGoatLord]

2 hours ago, Andrew Marines said:

 

It's a bit risky to suggest something without any in-game screenshots/videos to see the issues...

 

I don't want to try out a new tactic and have my season go off course but I'll save scum and see if I can get a screenshot.

 

2 hours ago, Andrew Marines said:

Your players are positioning themselves in a good way right from the start of the action?

It's kinda tough. I always find the opposition DM/CMs in position during transitions. 

 

2 hours ago, Andrew Marines said:

You sure the 4231 is the easiest tactic to use in this situation?

The 4-3-3 DM Wide is even more atrocious when it comes to moving the ball forward to my striker who's in between a sea of opposition defenders.

 

I tried the CF-s and IF-a and IW-a combo but I rarely create chances for my wide forwards to do damage.

 

[robot_skeleton]

I am just wondering about the shadow striker, how did you arrive at this particular role? Seems to me like it's better suited with a striker in front of him who drops sometimes.

You mentioned crossing ends up producing low quality chances. If you could post a screenshot about some of these moments right before the cross happens then a better suggestion could be made I think.

[TehGoatLord]

I started a new game and set up the tactics as follows. Adjusted the default Gegenpress tactic since the fluid counter attack felt a bit too passive for the kind of club United is. 

 

Second tactic is going to be the midblock one for away fixtures and during parts of the match I am not doing well

 

 

Going to finish pre-season and play til January before I come back with the screenshots.

 

2 hours ago, robot_skeleton said:

I am just wondering about the shadow striker, how did you arrive at this particular role?

I was lacking an unpredictable presence inside the box. The CF-a would be marked out, the IF-s or IF-a would be running at the wall and rarely find the channel to run onto a through ball for a shot. The SS-a allowed another body to challenge for the cross. 

[Johnny Ace]

With a 4-2-3-1 DM, I find in FM that play will naturally go down the wings with the wide attackers and wingbacks. With both your both attackers on attack it will emphasise this 

I know you don't want to, but changing to a narrow shape can help 

 

 

[Vinay17]

hace 48 minutos, Johnny Ace dijo:

With a 4-2-3-1 DM, I find in FM that play will naturally go down the wings with the wide attackers and wingbacks. With both your both attackers on attack it will emphasise this 

I know you don't want to, but changing to a narrow shape can help 

 

 

I tend to play extremely narrow when I want to see through balls or that central play that he is talking. 

[TehGoatLord]

23 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

I know you don't want to, but changing to a narrow shape can help 

Like 3atb or team width?

23 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

With a 4-2-3-1 DM, I find in FM that play will naturally go down the wings with the wide attackers and wingbacks

I find it super difficult to create that pocket of space between the wingback and the opposition defence for the Inside Forwards to either 1-2 into space or receive a pass from the midfielder (AMC-s, SV-s) to get a shot on goal. Usually the wingback crosses or the ball gets circulated to one of the midfielders lurking outside who takes a long shot at goal. 

 

I think I solved the problem but I don't know how... Won 5/5 of the first PL games. I am getting those transitions high up. The team is also passing around quite snappily and finding each other well. Got quite a few goals from well-placed passes and through balls. The crossing is also there. All in all, it feels very balanced aside from my team getting gassed out after the 60th minute. I try to keep my high pressing under 50 mins. 

Main Tactic

For the second tactic, I adapted from fluid counter attacking preset.

 

One of the things I noticed was that the AMC does not perform well if set on support duty. They'll stay marked out inside the hole against 4-3-3s and 4-2-3-1 DMs. However, setting the duty to Attack means that the channels get exploited a lot and the marking midfielders are moved away from the position. Even though I have an IW-a (still experimenting to see if an IF-a works better) and a PF-a, the AM-a is not overkill in any way. Positional play and high OTB means Bruno/Mount can always find the space not taken by the IF-a and PF-a.

 

If it wasn't for the gegenpress preset, I would have never figured out that an AM-a will pair well with such attacking duties ahead of him. 

[TehGoatLord]

Here are a few examples. The AM-a is integral in moving the opposition defence around. The SV also stretches one side so the DLP-d has enough space to distribute the ball up ahead.

 

 

 

 

[Johnny Ace]

I was thinking more long the lines of a 4-2-2-2 Box or a 4-4-2 Diamond, anything without wide attackers  

[Rashidi]

A 4231 much like any formation that uses wingbacks runs the risk of leaving flanks open during transition failures. There are several ways to create better transitions that give you more options in attack yet, at the same time, provide cover down the flanks.

1. With both wingbacks on support or even attack they need to be fit and fast. It’s a high price to pay. 
 

2. The SS/CF option is nice, issue come with controlling the centre with an attack duty in the AM tier. Sometimes it struggles requiring a really strong presence in there.

There is one option and it’s something I do with a 4231- create a build out pattern that’s a 3-2, it can offer very good defensive coverage down the flanks giving you more options.

It isn’t about how many players rush up in support it’s about how you dominate the final third forcing sides to deal with relenting pressure and you can get this done in one example.

If you use a IFB in defence you have a third defender who can protect the flanks since He positions himself in the half flanks. I have done a video on the IFB(D) and can link it if you need.

LFBx2 and a libero can give you a 3-1 buildout, then with a DM role like a DLP or a DM then you have your 3-2 build out.

The role beside the DLP can now be a SV which is basically a box to box midfielder. You now have the base for a good “Rest Defence” when you are attacking.

The use of the IFB now allows you to be more aggressive in your choice of duties in the final third. If you are have a strong 3-2 you can use IW(A) on both sides to feed that SS/CF pair, but I much prefer using W(A) on both flanks pinning back opposing fullbacks and a poacher AP(S), with this shape I get a 3241 in attack. You will see more central attack patterns as well.

Finally with you so high up, you can dominate a lot of teams with high possession. Seeing 70% and higher will be normal at home at times edging as high as 80%. And with Hold Shape you will patiently probe these sides into submission. It’s something you could consider apart from all the other good advice shared.

[TehGoatLord]

23 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I have done a video on the IFB(D) and can link it if you need.

I have been religiously watching every single video of yours since 2019. In fact, I have followed your posts more or less for roughly a decade. Absolutely floored by that match engine you have inside your head. Real inspiration. 

I have tried Wan Bissaka in the IFB position. My first save (this is the 5th one) had a 4-3-3 DM Wide with a 3-2 build up shape. The biggest issue I faced was that the wide players would run into traffic, thus long shots. The right side would also struggle to find support. Usually the IFB would be a bit too on the inside but I need to test more before I ask for any further help.

During an attacking transition, when my 3-2 shape passes the ball forward, I usually face a settled defence. Although I have not tried before with the tempo maxed out. 

Honestly, after the positional play update, you need to do a new video on transitions! I know you have one on FM18 iirc. But I think people like me would benefit a lot from how tempo affects transitions and especially what to look for during attacking transitions. For example, creating space in between the lines for support duties to find the final pass. 

 

[TehGoatLord]

Honestly, I'd kill to be able to score 30+ goals like this in a season.

 

[TehGoatLord]

This is the kind of transition that happens most of the time. See how the opponent has four players guarding the center? This always peters out. 

 

[CAE82]

On 21/01/2024 at 08:35, TehGoatLord said:

On the right wing, the IW-s or W-a would keep running into traffic, being pushed into the corner flag. Or they will receive the ball out wide near the halfway line, attempt a pass or dribble then lose the ball. Ideally, I would like my right wing to create through balls from out wide for the AF Hojland or Rashford to run onto, then either take a shot or cross towards the IF-s on the left side. 

Maybe you need to look more at PI and PPM to further refine the tactic rather than relying purely on the role/duty e.g. add PI to the RW to cross to far post and then train the IF-S to have a PPM to 'Get into Opposition Box'.

On 21/01/2024 at 08:35, TehGoatLord said:

On the right wing, the IW-s or W-a would keep running into traffic, being pushed into the corner flag

e.g. Cut inside from right-wing.

On 21/01/2024 at 08:35, TehGoatLord said:

I want to play a quick game where the team creates through ball opportunities from transitions. 

e.g. train 'Tries Killer Balls Often' and use 'Takes More Risks' PI for the players you want to be playing the through balls and possibly 'Focus Play Through The Middle' TI if the DMC/AMC are key.

[CAE82]

p.s. When playing out of defence and using a BPD/CD pair, rather than 'Distributing to Centre Backs' you could try 'Distribute To Position' and select Martinez in your case as presumably you want your GK to play out through your BPD rather than your CD as they typically have better first touch, composure, passing, vision etc.

[TehGoatLord]

12 hours ago, CAE82 said:

p.s. When playing out of defence and using a BPD/CD pair, rather than 'Distributing to Centre Backs' you could try 'Distribute To Position' and select Martinez in your case as presumably you want your GK to play out through your BPD rather than your CD as they typically have better first touch, composure, passing, vision etc.

Thanks for the tip!! 

 

Also, if I have low tempo and shorter passing, is playing out of defence superfluous? 

[CAE82]

3 hours ago, TehGoatLord said:

Thanks for the tip!! 

 

Also, if I have low tempo and shorter passing, is playing out of defence superfluous? 

Morning!

If you are playing out through Martinez, then I wouldn't play out of defence (POOD) as he has 'Tries Long Range Passes' as a PPM (I often play Utd for similar reasons for yourself!) Since he has good passing and vision, then I like him to play decisive balls forwards (BPD also has Take More Risks PI).

Another reason I do not like POOD is the position of the players for a goal kick. I've just played a couple of games on my Everton save to demonstrate as I have Laporte at left BPD and play out through him in a similar way to Martinez at Utd.

With POOD:

 

Without POOD:

Note how the CD and DM (I also play 4231 DM Wide) drop back with the CD in the box. The opposition are also pushed up much further which I feel is more risky in case Laporte is caught in possesion or plays a silly ball to one of the DMs who are under pressure from the opposition. Without POOD, Laporte collects the ball in much more space giving him time to find a pass.

So overall, neglecting any pass length/tempo issues, I feel POOD is more of a 'cosmetic' instruction that predominantly affects how you take goal kicks.

[crusadertsar]

8 hours ago, CAE82 said:

Morning!

If you are playing out through Martinez, then I wouldn't play out of defence (POOD) as he has 'Tries Long Range Passes' as a PPM (I often play Utd for similar reasons for yourself!) Since he has good passing and vision, then I like him to play decisive balls forwards (BPD also has Take More Risks PI).

Another reason I do not like POOD is the position of the players for a goal kick. I've just played a couple of games on my Everton save to demonstrate as I have Laporte at left BPD and play out through him in a similar way to Martinez at Utd.

With POOD:

 

Without POOD:

Note how the CD and DM (I also play 4231 DM Wide) drop back with the CD in the box. The opposition are also pushed up much further which I feel is more risky in case Laporte is caught in possesion or plays a silly ball to one of the DMs who are under pressure from the opposition. Without POOD, Laporte collects the ball in much more space giving him time to find a pass.

So overall, neglecting any pass length/tempo issues, I feel POOD is more of a 'cosmetic' instruction that predominantly affects how you take goal kicks.

Interesting analysis! I actually stopped using POOD altogether this year because I found that it caused more problems than it solved. I still like my team's to play predominantly pass and move style where they start the build up patiently from keeper to central defenders or fullbacks up through the midfield. To achieve this now I generally use combination of instructions and roles. For example you can instruct your keeper to only throw the ball to make it much less likely that he will boot the ball stupidly up towards our strikers. Also if you have a BPD role or Libero then it becomes even more likely that your keeper will target these players with a pass first. With POOD what usually happens is that it causes your defenders and DMs to drop deeper and if anything to take too much time passing the ball backwards. When playing against a superior team that's hard pressing your defensive line this could prove very risky. 

[CAE82]

@crusadertsar Exactly, CD and DM dropping deeper just invites pressure and eventually won't end well (especially against the top dogs).

I worte this in August 2020 but is probably still mostly applicable in FM24 - you may find it interesting (or not!)

https://randomfmstuff.wordpress.com/tactics-stuff/goalkeeper-distribution/

But it's clear it's worth paying attention to how the TI, particularly in transition, determine how the FB/CD/DM line up when taking goal kicks and thus determine how you can play out.

[Vinay17]

En 28/1/2024 a las 5:49, CAE82 dijo:

Morning!

If you are playing out through Martinez, then I wouldn't play out of defence (POOD) as he has 'Tries Long Range Passes' as a PPM (I often play Utd for similar reasons for yourself!) Since he has good passing and vision, then I like him to play decisive balls forwards (BPD also has Take More Risks PI).

Another reason I do not like POOD is the position of the players for a goal kick. I've just played a couple of games on my Everton save to demonstrate as I have Laporte at left BPD and play out through him in a similar way to Martinez at Utd.

With POOD:

 

Without POOD:

Note how the CD and DM (I also play 4231 DM Wide) drop back with the CD in the box. The opposition are also pushed up much further which I feel is more risky in case Laporte is caught in possesion or plays a silly ball to one of the DMs who are under pressure from the opposition. Without POOD, Laporte collects the ball in much more space giving him time to find a pass.

So overall, neglecting any pass length/tempo issues, I feel POOD is more of a 'cosmetic' instruction that predominantly affects how you take goal kicks.

Looking at the images POOD seems what DeZerbi tries to do with Brighton, they POOD to attract opposition and then open spaces for the direct ball to the flanks or the AMC, that leaves a 4vs4 with pacey wingers w/good dribbling one or two balls are a CCC for sure.

I’ve been running a few test with direct passes + POOD and results are funny, you need the right kind of players of and most of all a BPD capable to achieve this kind of play. Maybe higher tempo instead of direct passes can get the same result as well.