keep conceding through balls, especially long balls despite lower line

[thebreadlady]

we're an inferior team, my CBs cant match opposition strikers' pace, but we keep conceding goals like this. i dont want my players positioned so far up field

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ibrahim.akbyk]

I think their midfielder recieve pass easyly and then pass the ball their forward quickly. If their strikers quick then your defenders, defending them could be very hard. 
May sounds wierd but You could try increasing def-line to achieve more compactness on the middle of the pitch. Try normal def-line or higher with low line of engagement. I would try prevent the opposing midfielder from passing the ball. 

[ibrahim.akbyk]

Also, using a PF(d) could help you with that, especially with 442 formation.

Edited January 9 by ibrahim.akbyk

[CapitalismReimagined]

I would do two things: consider setting up one central defender to be on a cover role that is marking tightly the poacher or AF striker. Try to have your midfielders to close down their creative midfielders. What do you think? 

[Rick87]

Make sure your opposition instructions don't have a slow moving defender trying to mark tightly the pacy forwards, else you will lose goals, particularly if said pacy forward has a good first touch and technique to lose the defenders.

[whatsupdoc]

I'd wait for a patch before kicking yourself too hard about this. 1v1 defending especially in central areas still needs work. 

[Cloud9]

10 hours ago, thebreadlady said:

we're an inferior team, my CBs cant match opposition strikers' pace, but we keep conceding goals like this. i dont want my players positioned so far up field

 

 

 

 

 

 

Passing shorter w/ your current approach is making you a non threat to the opponent and you're inviting too much pressure to not concede w/out any real pushback. Going direct will help solve this issue. A much lower defensive line can contribute to this problem as well, I'd bump it up a standard. 

The IWB is fun but will leave you defensively exposed when the ball is turned over, which is problematic for your setup. I would go for a more traditional role on the left hand side. Drop the NCB role for a CD as well, NCB is a role I would avoid entirely. 

[thebreadlady]

54 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

Passing shorter w/ your current approach is making you a non threat to the opponent and you're inviting too much pressure to not concede w/out any real pushback. Going direct will help solve this issue. A much lower defensive line can contribute to this problem as well, I'd bump it up a standard. 

The IWB is fun but will leave you defensively exposed when the ball is turned over, which is problematic for your setup. I would go for a more traditional role on the left hand side. Drop the NCB role for a CD as well, NCB is a role I would avoid entirely. 

i had it on standard DL in the beginning and standard passing and it was just constant hoofing the ball then pushing forward then conceding from the opposition hitting one back over the top. we still are

 

3 hours ago, whatsupdoc said:

I'd wait for a patch before kicking yourself too hard about this. 1v1 defending especially in central areas still needs work. 

fm23 

[Cloud9]

48 minutes ago, thebreadlady said:

i had it on standard DL in the beginning and standard passing and it was just constant hoofing the ball then pushing forward then conceding from the opposition hitting one back over the top. we still are

 

fm23 

I would then look to the attributes of the players in your defensive setup.

Defensive blocks require reliable players w/good mentals (among other things) or they will continue to make mistakes under pressure. If your CB "fits" the NCB role, then he is likely a huge problem (and I would guess that problem is not isolated to him). Squad building is always important, but w/ a system like this it can be especially punishing. 

On the tactical side, the changes you've made since then have compounded the issue and making the changes I've laid out above will go a long way (but it's not a silver bullet to all the problems). The NCB will hoof the ball and even when playing it short he will continue to do so. Changes to more conservative fullback roles will help if the ball is getting played into the channels over the top (as is the case in that last screenshot), you're asking a lot of your two CBs as is. 

• x2 WB(D), WB(s) + F(s), FB(a) + FB(s) are all good go pairings when you need to stabilize the defensive line. 

If you're unhappying with the passing, leave it on standard or direct and do individualized passing meter changes and drop the TF.

• TF naturally act as a hoof the ball to me magnet. If that's not what you're going for, a midblock w/a PF(s) can make a more fluid defensive style accessible.
  • A 4-4-1-1 would be another option.

The danger to a less direct approach as an untalented squad is that you can get pinned back by the oppositions press.

Edited January 9 by Cloud9

[thebreadlady]

9 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

I would then look to the attributes of the players in your defensive setup.

Defensive blocks require reliable players w/good mentals (among other things) or they will continue to make mistakes under pressure. If your CB "fits" the NCB role, then he is likely a huge problem (and I would guess that problem is not isolated to him). Squad building is always important, but w/ a system like this it can be especially punishing. 

On the tactical side, the changes you've made since then have compounded the issue and making the changes I've laid out above will go a long way (but it's not a silver bullet to all the problems). The NCB will hoof the ball and even when playing it short he will continue to do so. Changes to more conservative fullback roles will help if the ball is getting played into the channels over the top (as is the case in that last screenshot), you're asking a lot of your two CBs as is. 

• x2 WB(D), WB(s) + F(s), FB(a) + FB(s) are all good go pairings when you need to stabilize the defensive line. 

If you're unhappying with the passing, leave it on standard or direct and do individualized passing meter changes and drop the TF.

• TF naturally act as a hoof the ball to me magnet. If that's not what you're going for, a midblock w/a PF(s) can make a more fluid defensive style accessible.
  • A 4-4-1-1 would be another option.

The danger to a less direct approach as an untalented squad is that you can get pinned back by the oppositions press.

then how should bad mentals CBs in the game be utilized? you cant play a high press with them, you cant play low block with them. 

im not expecting anything from NCB with the ball, hes basically just a 6'4 CB who i rely on to win headers. its everyone else thats constantly hoofing the ball thats why i adjusted it to shorter passing

hoofing the ball to the TF is 100% acceptable in my case but thats not whats happening

[ibrahim.akbyk]

56 dakika önce, thebreadlady said:

then how should bad mentals CBs in the game be utilized? you cant play a high press with them, you cant play low block with them. 

im not expecting anything from NCB with the ball, hes basically just a 6'4 CB who i rely on to win headers. its everyone else thats constantly hoofing the ball thats why i adjusted it to shorter passing

hoofing the ball to the TF is 100% acceptable in my case but thats not whats happening

But roles effect eachother’s play. Like being a passing option. When somebody in your def-line has recieved the ball, he generally have only 3-4 short passing option which include DLP on midfield strata. So if opposition press high with 4 people, then your player actually has 0 option to short pass and hoofing the ball. When Guardiola at Barca, he subs a forward with defence against high pressing Real Madrid, to set up play out from back. When you instruct to pass it shorter with this setup, it would kinda counteractive thing against yourself. Add to this play with balanced mentality which is about relative low risk. 

[Dr Naysay]

It would concern me how their number six just dropped in to that pocket of space unmolested and then played a beautiful ball over the top, sometimes we focus too much on the defenders after a goal and not enough on the root causes. Against two strikers you are already at a disadvantage with just two CBs and their whole tactic was set-up to hit you exactly like they did with their two strikers playing up against your CBs and their midfielders dropping in to those pockets , I am sure your NCB is just not fit for purpose but I think a lot of even more talented CB's would have suffered the same fate. I personally would have a think about the whole tactic. btw if you're the inferior team in the league it wouldn't hurt to have different formations when coming up against two striker tactics.

 

Edited January 10 by Dr Naysay

[Cloud9]

2 hours ago, thebreadlady said:

then how should bad mentals CBs in the game be utilized? you cant play a high press with them, you cant play low block with them. 

im not expecting anything from NCB with the ball, hes basically just a 6'4 CB who i rely on to win headers. its everyone else thats constantly hoofing the ball thats why i adjusted it to shorter passing

hoofing the ball to the TF is 100% acceptable in my case but thats not whats happening

Yes, but exceptions are not what's impactful here. A CD w/pass it shorter who isn't capable of playing the ball won't boot it up the pitch because he isn't hard coded to (the NCB comes with "take less risks" + "More direct passing" which will see him hoof it 24/7). The CD will also provide you that defensive aerial profile w/out the liability. The passing meters changes I've suggested above will sort the issue you're having with his teammates w/out nullifying your attacking threat. 

On your second question on utilizing a player with poor mentals:

• They're far less punishing in a high lines system, at least in comparison to a structured defensive approach where you can't afford to have your players make mistakes. Mistakes made higher up the pitch won't necessarily result in a goal scoring attempt and you're set up to score yourself if you do go behind. 
• I would say it's dependent on the position you're looking to play them in. An AMC strata Winger(a) for example, doesn't need good mentals to be effective since you're only asking one thing of him (beating his man, getting to the byline and crossing the ball). 
  • On a central defender, I would avoid such players in either approach. However, in a high press w/a high defensive line other attributes like pace become mandatory as well, so you might feel more forgiving of a player w/slightly poorer judgment but the athleticism to execute your style. 
  • A back 3 is a good way of compensating for a defenders deficiencies, and playing the lacking player in one of the wide roles could work. I'd only consider this option he if he truly exceptional at other aspects of the game and the mentals weren't too low. I've usually employed this method to utilize short center backs. 

What's his profile like? At the top flight level I'd be uncomfortable with a CD with mentals below 12 in the key areas. For a standard defensive line I'd be prioritizing strong/tall center backs with 14-16 mentals. Ideally you'd like one of them to have a little turn of pace as well.

• I'd view the ability to pass the ball as a bonus, but the individualized passing meter changes can really help you navigate a poorer quality squad in transitioning the ball forward effectively/efficiently. 

Edited January 10 by Cloud9

[thebreadlady]

14 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

Yes, but exceptions are not what's impactful here. A CD w/pass it shorter who isn't capable of playing the ball won't boot it up the pitch because he isn't hard coded to (the NCB comes with "take less risks" + "More direct passing" which will see him hoof it 24/7). The CD will also provide you that defensive aerial profile w/out the liability. The passing meters changes I've suggested above will sort the issue you're having with his teammates w/out nullifying your attacking threat. 

On your second question on utilizing a player with poor mentals:

• They're far less punishing in a high lines system, at least in comparison to a structured defensive approach where you can't afford to have your players make mistakes. Mistakes made higher up the pitch won't necessarily result in a goal scoring attempt and you're set up to score yourself if you do go behind. 
• I would say it's dependent on the position you're looking to play them in. An AMC strata Winger(a) for example, doesn't need good mentals to be effective since you're only asking one thing of him (beating his man, getting to the byline and crossing the ball). 
  • On a central defender, I would avoid such players in either approach. However, in a high press w/a high defensive line other attributes like pace become mandatory as well, so you might feel more forgiving of a player w/slightly poorer judgment but the athleticism to execute your style. 

What's his profile like? At the top flight level I'd be uncomfortable with a CD with mentals below 12 in the key areas. For a standard defensive line I'd be prioritizing strong/tall center backs with 14-16 mentals. Ideally you'd like one of them to have a little turn of pace as well.

• I'd view the ability to pass the ball as a bonus, but the individualized passing meter changes can really help you navigate a poorer quality squad in transitioning the ball forward effectively/efficiently. 

isnt that the opposite to teams in real life? you'd expect worse teams who play more conservative, defensive football to have worse players but youre saying to play defensive you need even better mentals? theres no way you would think the average, bottom half of the table, CB would have better mentals than a top 4 side CB. 

my NCB has 14+ key, 13+ preferable except for composure. CB has 15+ mentals aside from composure 

i've already set the passing to standard for the past 5 games. 

 

1 hour ago, ibrahim.akbyk said:

But roles effect eachother’s play. Like being a passing option. When somebody in your def-line has recieved the ball, he generally have only 3-4 short passing option which include DLP on midfield strata. So if opposition press high with 4 people, then your player actually has 0 option to short pass and hoofing the ball. When Guardiola at Barca, he subs a forward with defence against high pressing Real Madrid, to set up play out from back. When you instruct to pass it shorter with this setup, it would kinda counteractive thing against yourself. Add to this play with balanced mentality which is about relative low risk. 

which is all fine with me. if theres no short option, hoof it forward but at least hoof it to the TF, thats what hes there for, but they rarely do. the game recognizes the cross field ball to the semi-unmarked wide player as a safer option than the TF who has an opposition defender near him. i am much more confident in my TF winning the aerial duel than for the cross field ball to even be accurate let alone keep the ball at the end of it. 

ideally i want to play a few passes in the back to encourage the other team to come forward and open up space behind for us to go long. 

[ibrahim.akbyk]

46 dakika önce, thebreadlady said:

which is all fine with me. if theres no short option, hoof it forward but at least hoof it to the TF, thats what hes there for, but they rarely do. the game recognizes the cross field ball to the semi-unmarked wide player as a safer option than the TF who has an opposition defender near him. i am much more confident in my TF winning the aerial duel than for the cross field ball to even be accurate let alone keep the ball at the end of it. 

ideally i want to play a few passes in the back to encourage the other team to come forward and open up space behind for us to go long. 

TF is a ball magnet, but I think this is not the case for every situation. Somebody correct me if am mistaken here, but I think the attributes like composure, vision, decisions are more important for your situation here. If he has composure to be calm there, vision to see TF and decision to make TF as a choice, then he  could pass the ball to the TF. Though he needs other abilities to be able to pass is correctly but its another thing. Also, you told him to take lower risk and to be more direct. Like you said, clearing the ball the flanks is a safer option then to pass it to the marked TF, and he chose safer option there. He was doing what he told when clearing the ball. 
What are your TF’s attributes such as anticipation, off the ball? I think they are also related to the situation. 

Edited January 10 by ibrahim.akbyk

[thebreadlady]

3 hours ago, ibrahim.akbyk said:

TF is a ball magnet, but I think this is not the case for every situation. Somebody correct me if am mistaken here, but I think the attributes like composure, vision, decisions are more important for your situation here. If he has composure to be calm there, vision to see TF and decision to make TF as a choice, then he  could pass the ball to the TF. Though he needs other abilities to be able to pass is correctly but its another thing. Also, you told him to take lower risk and to be more direct. Like you said, clearing the ball the flanks is a safer option then to pass it to the marked TF, and he chose safer option there. He was doing what he told when clearing the ball. 
What are your TF’s attributes such as anticipation, off the ball? I think they are also related to the situation. 

i think i just have a disconnect between real life football vs in game football. by having a TF should mean hes the default out ball unless theres clearly a person right in front and in the way of the player kicking it towards the TF. vision shouldnt be an issue, for CBs and GKs especially, they should know the TF is gonna be, its not like a player making a run in behind and needs a fabregas type player to play that perfect ball through 3 players. i just need the ball be punt up to the center of the pitch where the TF always is and rely on him to win the header. TF being marked is a non-issue, or it should be. clearing it out is the safest option, im not playing on very defensive mentality. 

my TF has +15 anticipation, strength, jumping, balance, teamwork, bravery, heading. 11 off the ball but i cant see how off the ball applies in his situation, he just needs to be in the center and win headers. 

[ibrahim.akbyk]

23 dakika önce, thebreadlady said:

i think i just have a disconnect between real life football vs in game football. by having a TF should mean hes the default out ball unless theres clearly a person right in front and in the way of the player kicking it towards the TF. vision shouldnt be an issue, for CBs and GKs especially, they should know the TF is gonna be, its not like a player making a run in behind and needs a fabregas type player to play that perfect ball through 3 players. i just need the ball be punt up to the center of the pitch where the TF always is and rely on him to win the header. TF being marked is a non-issue, or it should be. clearing it out is the safest option, im not playing on very defensive mentality. 

my TF has +15 anticipation, strength, jumping, balance, teamwork, bravery, heading. 11 off the ball but i cant see how off the ball applies in his situation, he just needs to be in the center and win headers. 

But off the ball isnt just about running behind. Its about making himself available for a ball. Think about a playmaker with good off the ball and you can understand what I mean. (Classic pirlo) Also vision isnt just about seeing a runner. Its about seeing situation which could be very various. Like seeing a TF which is available between opposition’s def-strata and midfield-strata (messi as f9). Atleast thats what my opinion, and the way how I think about attributes. 
 

About risk situation. I just mean NCB’s PI. I guess Its what it is. Either very def mentality and balanced mentality.

And your defenders probably play with the ball to your TF sometimes and your TF sometimes won that ball. I am just speaking about regularity and some specific situation like being pressing. 

Edited January 10 by ibrahim.akbyk

[ibrahim.akbyk]

10 dakika önce, fraudiola said:

what are you talking about mate? why are you comparing a plain old TF to pirlo and messi as f9? 

TF doesnt require so many attributes to function. 

Im not compairing roles or players. Im talking about “off the ball” instruction. And gave some example IRL player and how they move. Pirlo had amazing off the ball skill to recieve a pass and pass it to other guy from deeper area. And I guess I dont need to talk about messi. @thebreadlady said TF isnt running behind, so off the ball isnt related. I tried to help him to understand how it could be related. Isnt off the ball related coming deep from forward position to backward position? Is it just about running behind?
So whats weird about that? 😂

Edited January 10 by ibrahim.akbyk

[ibrahim.akbyk]

@fraudiola Btw, I dont associate clearing the ball with TF’s attribitues. If you read my comments, I said lots of thing like defenders behavior and risk situations before coming TF. It was a “possibilty” we are talking about which came in my mind.  There is nothing wrong about TF and its function. You should re-read them 😁

Edited January 10 by ibrahim.akbyk

[Cloud9]

7 hours ago, thebreadlady said:

isnt that the opposite to teams in real life? you'd expect worse teams who play more conservative, defensive football to have worse players but youre saying to play defensive you need even better mentals? theres no way you would think the average, bottom half of the table, CB would have better mentals than a top 4 side CB. 

my NCB has 14+ key, 13+ preferable except for composure. CB has 15+ mentals aside from composure 

i've already set the passing to standard for the past 5 games. 

 

which is all fine with me. if theres no short option, hoof it forward but at least hoof it to the TF, thats what hes there for, but they rarely do. the game recognizes the cross field ball to the semi-unmarked wide player as a safer option than the TF who has an opposition defender near him. i am much more confident in my TF winning the aerial duel than for the cross field ball to even be accurate let alone keep the ball at the end of it. 

ideally i want to play a few passes in the back to encourage the other team to come forward and open up space behind for us to go long. 

That's an interesting point, I hadn't thought of it that way. 

However, we're looking to overperform and creating a system and style of play will be essential to doing that. When crafting a defensive approach you're just looking to build a starting 11 you can rely on and can operate as a unit. 

The top clubs will still have better quality player's than you, but you're prioritizing specific attributes in order to get a system going that can beat them. Big clubs are still going to have players with better mentals than you. If they're taking an attacking approach they have space to carry players in a way you don't. 

Edited January 10 by Cloud9

[ibrahim.akbyk]

11 dakika önce, fraudiola said:

good off the ball is a bonus

Now you got what I mean bro 👍

[Cloud9]

4 hours ago, fraudiola said:

it doesnt matter much to a TF, it shouldnt, there are other roles if you're looking for that. good off the ball is a bonus. in the counter system hes trying to play what matters is if the TF is able to win aerial duels. TF is to bully the CBs, beat them in the air, make the CBs come out of position to contest him from easy headers, flick ons, etc. to open up space. i think youre thinking more of a DLF. 

another thing is once youre in regen territory, its really hard to come by realistic and decent TFs so you have to make comprise. its always a catch22 like very high jumping reach, strength, but very low bravery aggression and heading or some other caveat. players with good attributes in key TF areas end up being +100million plus cause they have very good attributes outside of their TF areas. 

Milan Đurić used to be my #1 transfer target at the start of every save where i wanted to play a TM, won me so many titles. 

I agree with this, I don't really value off the ball for the TF unless he's on attack duty. In a defensive setup I prioritize his aerial ability first followed by the attributes of a pressing forward. 

In more recent saves I've preferred playing a PF(s) w/the attributes of a TF so the play is less one dimensional while offering more defensive structure. 

[ibrahim.akbyk]

8 saat önce, Cloud9 said:

In more recent saves I've preferred playing a PF(s) w/the attributes of a TF so the play is less one dimensional while offering more defensive structure. 

Thats what I like about PF. And as @fraudiola said, it could be hard to find nice TF in regen territory. 

[thebreadlady]

this is our tactic now. AF scored 38 in 37 last season and started this season with 10 in 6. but we still have a problem conceding most of our goals from through balls or balls over the top. we especially have a difficult time playing on these stupid square la liga pitches, there just seems to be so much space and gap between defenders on those fields. nearly all those games have been +5 goals games. 

 

 

[ibrahim.akbyk]

1 saat önce, thebreadlady said:

this is our tactic now. AF scored 38 in 37 last season and started this season with 10 in 6. but we still have a problem conceding most of our goals from through balls or balls over the top. we especially have a difficult time playing on these stupid square la liga pitches, there just seems to be so much space and gap between defenders on those fields. nearly all those games have been +5 goals games. 

 

 

Looks much more solid to me. I tend to change 1-2 roles and/or duty according to situation and/or oppenents. For example I use 3-2 rest def against 2 striker as IWB-BPD-CD-IFB at the back. In some situations I use 2-3 rest def with 2 IWB. Always looking for numerical superiority at the back according to oppenent’s attacking style. 

Edited January 11 by ibrahim.akbyk

[Dr Naysay]

@thebreadlady Can i ask what team you are playing with?

[thebreadlady]

2 hours ago, Dr Naysay said:

@thebreadlady Can i ask what team you are playing with?

real sociedad but its like 2050 something now

[thebreadlady]

3 hours ago, ibrahim.akbyk said:

Looks much more solid to me. I tend to change 1-2 roles and/or duty according to situation and/or oppenents. For example I use 3-2 rest def against 2 striker as IWB-BPD-CD-IFB at the back. In some situations I use 2-3 rest def with 2 IWB. Always looking for numerical superiority at the back according to oppenent’s attacking style. 

by the looks of it, a lot of chances being created due to my CBs being ahead of the ST while the LB/RB way behind playing the ST onside like this

teamwork 16+, positioning 14+ for all 4 defenders. 

my CBs dont even mark tightly PPM but they routinely follow them instead of maintaining a line and ready to drop back for the long ball. 

 

edit:

i tried keeping a clean sheet with a 2-0 lead in the last 10 minutes by taking off 1 ST for another CB for a 541 vs their 442. all three of my CBs were headless chickens not knowing which ST to press. center CB on cover was continually pressing the LS or RS making one of the other CBs to cover his position, leaving massive gaps. 

Edited January 11 by thebreadlady

[thebreadlady]

1-0 vs some hungarian side bottom of the europa league and they score from their 1st shot late in the game. 

guy with 11 passing, techinque, 12 vision. launches the perfect ball while facing the side of the pitch. 

 

game before this one i had my TF marking the opposition DM in a 433 and LCM man marking opposition RCM since these 2 were their good passers and their LCM had very bad on the ball abilities. i was thinking eh, let him have the ball, whats he gonna do? guy launches 2 perfect balls from deep for 2 assists. 

Edited January 11 by thebreadlady

[thebreadlady]

so pressing more and higher line solved most of my conceding issues. who would've thought...

this game and its pressing is so counter intuitive. sick of high press in FM, so unrealistic and easy to win games this way. my players dont even suit a high pressing, high line tactic. 

[Dr Naysay]

8 hours ago, thebreadlady said:

so pressing more and higher line solved most of my conceding issues. who would've thought...

this game and its pressing is so counter intuitive. sick of high press in FM, so unrealistic and easy to win games this way. my players dont even suit a high pressing, high line tactic. 

Sorry but this is plain wrong.

Defensive tactics work just fine, remember the shape we choose is the defensive shape so you are using a 4-4-2 which is ideal for pressing and then wondering why it works optimally with pressing. 

Just looking at that last two screenshots you put up and I am not surprised you're being picked apart. You have holes all over the place coupled with a timid setup and a striker pressing up against your last defender it is just a recipe for exactly what you're experiencing.

There are quite a few resources out there including a brilliant thread from @crusadertsar and @Cleonon the principles of defensive football and there was an excellent YouTube video recently on setting up a defensive shape, his example was very extreme but you can't argue with just 5 losses in his first 15 games conceding just 9 goals and taking 4 points from Manchester City and Arsenal with lowly Luton.

I am sorry, I don't want to come across as harsh because I understand your frustration having been there myself but it isn't true that you have to press to win, you need the optimal shape and the optimal settings, however just by looking at your screenshots I am not seeing that at all.