FM24 Newgens check after 25 seasons

[Novem9]

Simulated save until 2048. There are no more real players here, newgens only.

Compared newgens quality by my filters, no hidden atributes in simulation. 

Numbers meaning. First pair - comparing of filters, 1/2 where 1 = number in 2048 year, 2 = number in 1st season. Second pair - the same, but with '-1' for all attributes.

• GK - 15/13 , 91/80 - almost the same.
• CB - 110/55, 607/279 -  Critical shortage of defenders
• LB - 52/44, 359/188 - In general, WBs have become better, but not perfect
• RB - 46/44, 337/182 - the same
• DLP - 33/14, 176/96 - nothing changed since FM22 and earlier
• DM - 118/34, 617/176 - OMG where are midfielders???
• CM - 146/80, 688/382 - 
• AP - 84/83, 394/318 - attacking players are better
• LW - 64/55, 332/203
• RW - 50/51, 294/210 - good one
• AM - 83/71, 303/303 - 
• DLF - 23/101, 153/424 - WAIT WHAT??? 
• AF - 14/37, 73/197 - A LOT OF STRIKERS
• PF - 35/109, 200/436

As you can see, FM24 generated a lot of strikers, but critically not enough of CBs, DMs, CMs. This is really strange and sad.

 

Database:

• England, Spain, Germany: D1-D3
• Italy, France, Netherlands, Portugal: D1-D2
• A lot of advanced players for many countries (This also affects a number of newgens that replace them). National teams players, continental rep, national rep, etc.

1st season DB = 64951

25st season DB = 66852

[Novem9]

Another check is about CA/PA

Age: 23+ PA: 150+

1223 players found

----

Age: 23+ PA: 150+ CA:140+

665 players found

 

Only half of newgens. This cannot be called a pure experiment. But one of the stated features that sold the game to me was the improvement of the AI with the development of young players

 

Another one. Age 23+, PA 160+ = 356 newgens

Added CA 140- = 124 newgens. Maybe not the worst numbers. Especially when compared with previous editions of FM

But I can see 24 years old GK from River Plate, PA = 181, games 0. Zero official games. Lol.

 

PA = 179

Main career - 219 games in PSG2

 

PA 180, plays in Championship

PA 188

 

It doesn't seem like the AI is trying to give boost to high potential players

[Novem9]

PA 178, just 6 games for Nice. Despite national team stats 15/7

 

PA 174, 4.5 games per season

 

PA 187, 20 years old. Just 9 games.

 

Another newgen with PA 180, who will play in Team B forever

 

I believe Malmo wants to give more time for player with PA 171

 

There is a general improvement. Looking at the details, you realize that it is too insignificant. No loans, no game practice and attempts to improve newgens. The same issues for many years.

[Dreambuilder]

It is know that different regions produce more or less technical players. IIRC Brazil and perhaps Spain and France etc produces more technical and offensive players while for example Scandinavia produces more good defenders and like ball winning midfielders. Perhaps that explains some of the difference in produced positions.

[Novem9]

15 минут назад, Dreambuilder сказал:

It is know that different regions produce more or less technical players. IIRC Brazil and perhaps Spain and France etc produces more technical and offensive players while for example Scandinavia produces more good defenders and like ball winning midfielders. Perhaps that explains some of the difference in produced positions.

I didn't know about this! Mb this is a factor influencing what is happening.

I will check later - number of players at positions and how many positions for different nations.

Another point is attacking players have more subs in second time. Usually nobody changes CB in most games.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Novem9

[Novem9]

2 часа назад, Novem9 сказал:

Another check is about CA/PA

Age: 23+ PA: 150+

1223 players found

----

Age: 23+ PA: 150+ CA:140+

665 players found

 

Only half of newgens. This cannot be called a pure experiment. But one of the stated features that sold the game to me was the improvement of the AI with the development of young players

 

Another one. Age 23+, PA 160+ = 356 newgens

Added CA 140- = 124 newgens. Maybe not the worst numbers. Especially when compared with previous editions of FM

But I can see 24 years old GK from River Plate, PA = 181, games 0. Zero official games. Lol.

 

PA = 179

Main career - 219 games in PSG2

 

PA 180, plays in Championship

PA 188

 

It doesn't seem like the AI is trying to give boost to high potential players

Advanced note about AI doesn't try to improve newgens.

Somebody could say about newgens attributes are poor. But one of best IRL examples is Javier Portillo.

Speaking in FM language, his PA was high. Media called him as new Raul, btw.

And he had a chances in first team, even in ChL

Therefore, I want to see how perspective (High PA) players get playing time in first team and on loans before they are written off as scrap. Portillo was transfered to Gimnastic in 24 years. Playing 31 matches in a team where Raul and Ronaldo were - a great success.

And some newgens actually get a similar experience in FM24. But many newgens are still on sidelines and have no real experience in 24 years

 

[Dotsworthy]

What detail level are you using for your game setup. Leagues with lower level of detail/view only can cause issues with loans and use of subs.

One thing to consider is the number of high pa players will inflate as the game goes on so it's not optimal for every player to make it. So you are better off looking at the ratio of high CA players compared to the start of the game to see whether the game is balanced. high PA players can also roll trash personalities which mean they don't grow very well, or don't have the ambition to find more football.

Not to say there is a problem, there is definitely issues at big clubs. I noticed players on loan from prem clubs getting national team callups for England before their full club debut. You are definitely right that these players are too passive to leave big clubs to get football.

[Novem9]

48 минут назад, Dotsworthy сказал:

What detail level are you using for your game setup. Leagues with lower level of detail/view only can cause issues with loans and use of subs.

 

How exactly it increases? As I said I used more advanced setups to have a lot of players in unplayable leagues:

Uruguay

 

Columbia

 

Belgium:

 

Switzerland

 

Etc.

50 минут назад, Dotsworthy сказал:

One thing to consider is the number of high pa players will inflate as the game goes on so it's not optimal for every player to make it. So you are better off looking at the ratio of high CA players compared to the start of the game to see whether the game is balanced. high PA players can also roll trash personalities which mean they don't grow very well, or don't have the ambition to find more football.

 

It doesn't matter in reason of many positions as CB, DM and CM have a huge deficite in comparing of 1st season.

But I checked.

2048:

• PA 150+ = 1909
• PA 160+  = 578
• PA 170+ = 257
• PA 180+ = 56
• PA 190+ = 9

2023:

• 150 = 1581
• 160 = 544
• 170 = 163
• 180 = 42
• 190 = 8

Which again brings us to the two problems from the first post: 1) Imbalance in roles 2) AI does not develop players. And 3) Filters show deficite of players for some positions and oversupply in forward positions.

I try to enjoy long saves with newgens only, but every FM edition has issues, old and new.

[Dotsworthy]

21 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

How exactly it increases? As I said I used more advanced setups to have a lot of players in unplayable leagues:

I'm referring to game time as opposed to number of players loaded. If a loaded league has a lower level of detail or is view only, they will use fewer subs in games and have lower transfer activity. I'm not sure how inactive leagues simulate game time though.

21 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

But I checked.

2048:

• PA 150+ = 1909
• PA 160+  = 578
• PA 170+ = 257
• PA 180+ = 56
• PA 190+ = 9

2023:

• 150 = 1581
• 160 = 544
• 170 = 163
• 180 = 42
• 190 = 8

As you can see every PA band has more players. That's why I am suggesting comparing CA instead. You gave examples of players who have failed to meet their CA, but if there are plenty of players in the game who are meeting their CA, then it's less of an issue.

I don't know anything about the positional distribution so I'm not commenting on it. But we have issues with low levels of newgen fullback crossing and a higher number of shorter players so it wouldn't surprise me.

[Freakiie]

What exactly are you checking though?

From the sounds of it you are looking at very specific role profiles?

If I just look at CA here is what I got in my 2050 database.

Spoiler

GK150+
24/47
GK170+
5/7
LB150+
13/48
LB170+
0/6
CD150+
50/102
CD170+
3/16
RB150+
12/48
RB170+
0/2
DM150+
23/57
DM170+
3/5
CM150+
62/87
CM170+
4/9
LW150+
26/45
LW170+
2/4
AM150+
28/52
AM170+
3/4
RW150+
22/46
RW170+
3/6
ST150+
34/96
ST170+
8/17

Overall, there are 277 150CA+ players in the original database, compared to 529 in mine. So, CA actually inflates quite a bit. At 170+ CA it's 29 vs 66. It's only when you look at the absolute peak CA values that there are no new Messi's running around in my database, but the real life database also only has a single 190 CA player, so it's not like those are very common. Obviously if the player knew that Malmö guy had 171PA they'd been playing him 3 years ago, but without knowing that PA he just looks like a relatively flawed WB who isn't natural in any other position and who knows if Malmö even players WBs.

So, yeah, I'm honestly curious what you actually looked at. I do feel like the newgen attribute spreads still need more fine tuning and some attributes probably should develop better than they currently do, but there definitely is not a lack of talent in the future. I think real life players just tend to be a lot more well rounded (to an unrealistic degree at times), so they're much easier to fit into certain position profiles than newgens, whereas newgens struggle a lot more with having obvious flaws in their attributes.

As for the AI ignoring high PA players, yes the AI definitely could be a bit better here, especially when they buy these wonderkids for big money only to then never do anything with them, but, plenty of high PA players will also simply not look like future super stars or never quite develop and that's also natural. Sure, when you use a scouting tool you can find a bunch of high PA players that are nowhere near that PA, but when their CA is low then it's not really a surprise that they never play and end up playing and thus never developing. While clubs definitely should be more proactive finding loans for players, a lot of the examples you found look like they generated with a CA so low that it was highly unlikely they would ever reach their PA. Who would play that 188PA goalie when his CA is that poor?

[Novem9]

47 минут назад, Freakiie сказал:

What exactly are you checking though?

From the sounds of it you are looking at very specific role profiles?

If I just look at CA here is what I got in my 2050 database.

  Скрыть контент

GK150+
24/47
GK170+
5/7
LB150+
13/48
LB170+
0/6
CD150+
50/102
CD170+
3/16
RB150+
12/48
RB170+
0/2
DM150+
23/57
DM170+
3/5
CM150+
62/87
CM170+
4/9
LW150+
26/45
LW170+
2/4
AM150+
28/52
AM170+
3/4
RW150+
22/46
RW170+
3/6
ST150+
34/96
ST170+
8/17

Overall, there are 277 150CA+ players in the original database, compared to 529 in mine. So, CA actually inflates quite a bit. At 170+ CA it's 29 vs 66. It's only when you look at the absolute peak CA values that there are no new Messi's running around in my database, but the real life database also only has a single 190 CA player, so it's not like those are very common. Obviously if the player knew that Malmö guy had 171PA they'd been playing him 3 years ago, but without knowing that PA he just looks like a relatively flawed WB who isn't natural in any other position and who knows if Malmö even players WBs.

So, yeah, I'm honestly curious what you actually looked at. I do feel like the newgen attribute spreads still need more fine tuning and some attributes probably should develop better than they currently do, but there definitely is not a lack of talent in the future. I think real life players just tend to be a lot more well rounded (to an unrealistic degree at times), so they're much easier to fit into certain position profiles than newgens, whereas newgens struggle a lot more with having obvious flaws in their attributes.

As for the AI ignoring high PA players, yes the AI definitely could be a bit better here, especially when they buy these wonderkids for big money only to then never do anything with them, but, plenty of high PA players will also simply not look like future super stars or never quite develop and that's also natural. Sure, when you use a scouting tool you can find a bunch of high PA players that are nowhere near that PA, but when their CA is low then it's not really a surprise that they never play and end up playing and thus never developing. While clubs definitely should be more proactive finding loans for players, a lot of the examples you found look like they generated with a CA so low that it was highly unlikely they would ever reach their PA. Who would play that 188PA goalie when his CA is that poor?

I'm checking the same issue which ruined every my long save every year. Newgens are not developed, newgens have stupid attributes distribution. As result, my filters which show a number of players of realistic DB, but very strange and unbalanced number of generated players.

As improvement - more WB players. A lot of strikers, but actually this is another type of issue, because it's too many of them.

Another improvement - almost all clubs in active leagues have balanced squad. Or more balanced as before. Because in prev FMs it was a typical situation when you joined to a new club in journeyman save and... there are 14 players in middle of season. Or players a lot, but their quality just a joke. Now it looks better.

But I seriously can't understand why gamedevelopment company can't just matched 1st season DB with newgens. Create a few smart templates for every position/role and newgens will development by this. Random attributes + AI management = strange database

[Novem9]

1 час назад, Dotsworthy сказал:

I'm referring to game time as opposed to number of players loaded. If a loaded league has a lower level of detail or is view only, they will use fewer subs in games and have lower transfer activity. I'm not sure how inactive leagues simulate game time though.

2 часа назад, Novem9 сказал:

I didn't touch anything, default settings. 

 

1 час назад, Dotsworthy сказал:

As you can see every PA band has more players. That's why I am suggesting comparing CA instead. You gave examples of players who have failed to meet their CA, but if there are plenty of players in the game who are meeting their CA, then it's less of an issue.

 

I'll check it out in January

[Dotsworthy]

1 hour ago, Freakiie said:

From the sounds of it you are looking at very specific role profiles?

I think that's exactly what he's looking at. As the game progresses the spread of attributes for players is a lot more volatile than what the researchers do for real life players and you get fewer players who are good at everything, so it's not unsurprising that there are less players appearing in some of the filters.

That said I don't know enough about how role filters work as I don't use them.

[Novem9]

10 минут назад, Dotsworthy сказал:

I think that's exactly what he's looking at. As the game progresses the spread of attributes for players is a lot more volatile than what the researchers do for real life players and you get fewer players who are good at everything, so it's not unsurprising that there are less players appearing in some of the filters.

That said I don't know enough about how role filters work as I don't use them.

It my manual filters. I use them many years. I see how many, for example, CB were in 1st season with real players, compared with newgens players and see how difference that I don't like.

It all started many years ago. I played journeyman, moved for new club and realized - almost all candidates are either players I bought at previous club, or players I trained at this club academy

[Dotsworthy]

11 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

It my manual filters.

Ah fair enough. Are you looking at both critical and desirable attributes for each position then?

[Rashidi]

 I hate to say this but maybe it will help others who want to do sims.

If you want to check development of players it’s always better to make the nation playable with full detail. It will use more computations for development and all matches simulated will use the FME instead of the QME. It also has a realistic transfer market, more players get loaned out there is better activity and you will see a notable difference.
 

For development then ideally you will need more than the top level league loaded. For example England needs up to League 2 loaded.

If you are using default settings chances are your leagues are not set to full detail and you are also using the QME. The reality of FM is simple, you can have an enjoyable game with default settings, but for those who want epic long term saves that run 10-15 seasons with newgens that come from nations as far east as  China and South America you need to invest in a good multi core machine.

Only yesterday on stream we unearthed an Indonesian player who is a potential wonderkid with a good distribution of attributes. For him to develop well he needs the right number of leagues in his own nation which I didn’t provide, chances are he won’t develop well unless some foreign club signs him. This is just the game so setting it to default will not yield the right sample size.

I do think it’s an issue. Most people aren’t like me playing 200k players with a crazy number of nations and leagues loaded.  So I suggest making the leagues of your 10 nations fully playable with at least the top 3 leagues and set to full detail for all nations. You might see different results.

[santy001]

As @Rashidi mentions, there is so much in the game set-up that helps influence this. I do have a pretty powerful machine myself, but don't push out to the 200k mark. Instead I aim for around 80k, but with sort of pyramid of leagues I set up so that there are a few top tier leagues that make sense, with a wider supporting group of middling and lesser leagues to allow players to filter up and down based on ability. 

There's also a huge difference between what human researchers set players to in terms of potential and how close to attaining that they are in the initial data-set versus newgens produced by the game. It is very likely the case that there will be far less newgens who get closer to their PA than real players, because of the natural way in which human researchers will assess players.

[Freakiie]

Well until the OP actually shows what filters he is using to find players, this whole discussion is kinda meaningless in the first place. Researchers will make players much more well rounded, whereas newgens tend to do funky stuff. So, if you look at it purely from a perspective of "I want every important attribute to be at least 15+", then yes newgens often suck, because they're simply not as well rounded. I'm not sure if that's a flaw in player development or whether researchers in certain aspects are simply too kind at times, giving players relatively well rounded secondary attributes due to being "premier league level" players, even if they're actually pretty bad in those aspects.

From a pure CA point of view, as my 2050 save shows, player development is more than good enough with a massive increase in high CA players. So, the issue is not that players are not developing, the issue is that the players are not developing into the specific mould the OP wants, which is quite a different story. Now, no doubt there are some issues with certain newgen templates, the development of certain attributes and the AI will definitely ignore their own youngsters a bit too hard at times, but overall players are definitely being developed, otherwise the number of 150+ CA players in my save wouldn't be more than double what it is in the original database.

[Novem9]

18 часов назад, Dotsworthy сказал:

Ah fair enough. Are you looking at both critical and desirable attributes for each position then?

I simply use the attributes that I think are right for my players. However, there is no 100% However, there is no strict ultimatum. There is CB screen, as you can see I have 18 attributes, but match is 14/18

I am completely satisfied with this filter. I change something during saves forsure, but this is the base. I compare the number of players for it in the 1st season with what is happening with newgens - the result is not encouraging.

[Novem9]

2 часа назад, Rashidi сказал:

 I hate to say this but maybe it will help others who want to do sims.

If you want to check development of players it’s always better to make the nation playable with full detail. It will use more computations for development and all matches simulated will use the FME instead of the QME. It also has a realistic transfer market, more players get loaned out there is better activity and you will see a notable difference.
 

For development then ideally you will need more than the top level league loaded. For example England needs up to League 2 loaded.

If you are using default settings chances are your leagues are not set to full detail and you are also using the QME. The reality of FM is simple, you can have an enjoyable game with default settings, but for those who want epic long term saves that run 10-15 seasons with newgens that come from nations as far east as  China and South America you need to invest in a good multi core machine.

Only yesterday on stream we unearthed an Indonesian player who is a potential wonderkid with a good distribution of attributes. For him to develop well he needs the right number of leagues in his own nation which I didn’t provide, chances are he won’t develop well unless some foreign club signs him. This is just the game so setting it to default will not yield the right sample size.

I do think it’s an issue. Most people aren’t like me playing 200k players with a crazy number of nations and leagues loaded.  So I suggest making the leagues of your 10 nations fully playable with at least the top 3 leagues and set to full detail for all nations. You might see different results.

There's nothing to argue about here, when I load Argentina and Brazil as playable leagues, I get a lot more players and their quality is noticeably higher. It's just one example.
As far as I understand, this is directly related to the fact that they play real matches. Those that you can visit or send a scout. And not those that go “in the background”.

Since this is a game, I would like to see some kind of improvement for those who use 60-70k db like me. This may not be entirely “fair”, but we have a default database that can be used as a guide.

Actually, I started this test to see what awaits me in the new version of FM. I'm playing FM22 in the 2040s and this was a disappointing surprise for me.
I hope that the Unity engine will allow processing days faster, and 200k players will not be something colossal, as it is now

[Novem9]

2 часа назад, Freakiie сказал:

So, the issue is not that players are not developing, the issue is that the players are not developing into the specific mould the OP wants, which is quite a different story.

Either stop spreading false speculation, or don't post in this thread. Thank you

[Freakiie]

3 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

Either stop spreading false speculation, or don't post in this thread. Thank you

How is it false speculation when that is literally what you're doing? What else do you call having a filter looking at 18 different attributes?!

[CrowManager]

just for comparison between the player nationality differences aka the transfer levels when you load the leagues vs you posting above what they're like when not loaded

it's why ya gotta include more leagues, simply adding the players doesn't really fix it.

 

It's obviously a complex problem but as noted above if CA is being reached at higher levels it's probably you just hyper focusing on a few specific players with certain attributes at high levels as to why you're losing immersion in your saves. 

[Rashidi]

15 hours ago, Novem9 said:

There's nothing to argue about here, when I load Argentina and Brazil as playable leagues, I get a lot more players and their quality is noticeably higher. It's just one example.
As far as I understand, this is directly related to the fact that they play real matches. Those that you can visit or send a scout. And not those that go “in the background”.

Since this is a game, I would like to see some kind of improvement for those who use 60-70k db like me. This may not be entirely “fair”, but we have a default database that can be used as a guide.

Actually, I started this test to see what awaits me in the new version of FM. I'm playing FM22 in the 2040s and this was a disappointing surprise for me.
I hope that the Unity engine will allow processing days faster, and 200k players will not be something colossal, as it is now

Unity will likely not make a big difference. You fail to understand the relationship between all the factors that are included in the computation of results. You can’t just expect 70k db to give you a realistic save, you need to include the pyramids and detail level. Then you need to factor in the need to create within the db and the engine the need to compute for competitions as well. To give you an example, the game needs to logically add in the AFCON qualifiers for the WC even if there are no leagues loaded for that. Your conclusions are just false speculation based on an imperfect hypothesis built on wrong assumptions.

[Novem9]

2 часа назад, Rashidi сказал:

Unity will likely not make a big difference. You fail to understand the relationship between all the factors that are included in the computation of results. You can’t just expect 70k db to give you a realistic save, you need to include the pyramids and detail level. Then you need to factor in the need to create within the db and the engine the need to compute for competitions as well. To give you an example, the game needs to logically add in the AFCON qualifiers for the WC even if there are no leagues loaded for that. Your conclusions are just false speculation based on an imperfect hypothesis built on wrong assumptions.

Dude I just literally said you, that I hope unity gives opportunity to use 200k database on medium pc. Why ?because it will be use more cores of processor

Please close this thread, it's useless discussion at all

[Novem9]

4 часа назад, CrowManager сказал:

it's probably you just hyper focusing on a few specific players with certain attributes at high levels as to why you're losing immersion in your saves. 

Nah, main point was about how irl db and newgens db are difference. Filters just as example and specific numbers of this. I got your point, but as you can see I have deficit of CBs and overkill of strikers. So this not about db only, it's about newgens settings too 

It reminds me one of my first threads where I wrote about newgens GKs had vision attribute issue. Some people tried to discuss about this... and SI fixed this issue later. 

[Rashidi]

22 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

Dude I just literally said you, that I hope unity gives opportunity to use 200k database on medium pc. Why ?because it will be use more cores of processor

Please close this thread, it's useless discussion at all

You seem to think the Unity engine will allow an ordinary pc to run those kind of real time sim calculations. Dude have you ever worked with the Unity engine? It’s useless engaging with you cos you are making airheaded assumptions and when people try and correct you  nicely you snap. If you cannot accept criticism don’t ever post on a public forum.

[Novem9]

6 минут назад, Rashidi сказал:

You seem to think the Unity engine will allow an ordinary pc to run those kind of real time sim calculations

 

6 минут назад, Rashidi сказал:

with you cos you are making airheaded assumptions

Hm

6 минут назад, Rashidi сказал:

If you cannot accept criticism don’t ever post on a public forum

I communicate quite well with people who get the point. 

But you look offended now, I just see that this thread is not constructive and it’s easier to close it. I think this is a completely normal request, especially since I created it 

[santy001]

1 minute ago, Novem9 said:

I think this is a completely normal request, especially since I created it 

Not necessarily, you've offered up the facts and figures from your save on a public discussion platform. People can discuss that as they wish as long as its within the forum guidelines. If you no longer wish to participate in the discussion, then you can simply stop posting within this thread. 

[Novem9]

1 минуту назад, santy001 сказал:

Not necessarily, you've offered up the facts and figures from your save on a public discussion platform. People can discuss that as they wish as long as its within the forum guidelines. If you no longer wish to participate in the discussion, then you can simply stop posting within this thread. 

Ok, it's no problem. It has now moved away from the topic of directly comparing newgens to related areas, as for me. Earlier on this forum I saw a similar practice with other topics, which is why I suggested closing it. Cheers!

[AurioDK]

2044 :

 

Center backs are really hard to come by, good ones that is. I have the best in the world and he is shown below.

 

There are no Haalands, Messis or Ronaldos in my game, in general I would say all stats are a bit toned down and lots of players with gaps in their stats. Like brilliant world class wingers with no passing or midfielders with with no bravery, something is always lacking. This could of course be my game only, don´t know.

 

The best player in the world is mine as well, right sided inside/advanced forward ... but he is no Haaland or Kane. Pic shown below.

I have had to retrain two supposedly extremely good target men as center backs in the past simply because quality was lacking in the transfer market. They both did well in their new positions.

 

As for midfielders, there seem to be tons of decent midfielders, this really stresses out the need to pick and choose between stats as there are are very few all rounded midfielders, I have none "all rounded" in the first team, only just now did buy a wonderkid who looks like he has it all. One came up from the academy but he had 2 in determination and 1 in strength, so it will probably be a sale at some point.

 

Tons of good wingbacks but they are all small in size :-D