What do you do when your tactic "goes bad"?

[Bahnzo]

I have a 433 I crafted myself, and was not just working well, it was working GREAT. I took over 3.Liga Dresden in my Journeyman save and after some work, went on a 22 game unbeaten streak. During this, we played some awesome football at times with some nice passing and moving and scoring going on. 

And then it went bad all at once. Of course other teams started pressing high with some tight lines. And it also seems like they are tight marking *everyone*. None of my players have any space. I've also noticed the main issue are teams that play a 4231, as it's shape seems to counter my 433 well. 

What do you do in these cases? It's something I've always struggled with when this happens. I could change my shape to a 4231 I guess,  but I'd prefer to learn instead what things I might modify to counter the other teams. 

I think what I need is to find a way to open up space for my midfield. It's so congested they have no room to work so they just either keep passing the ball back to the defenders, or they hoof balls up to the wingers who just get swarmed and lose possession. I'll show my formation, but it's really nothing too fancy as you can see. 

[Maddux]

I'm playing with Dresden too and won the league in the first season with 95 points and also 95 goals scored. I still do ok in second Bundesliga now and are close to a promotion spot but i'm nowhere near as dominant like the season before.

But that's just normal. Dresden has a squad that is way to good for div 3 and still good for div 2. But the players, especially the attackers arend't good enough compared to most defenses in div 2, which leads to many close matches where small things decide between scoring or not. Meißner is a decnt DLF but you need better offensive wingers and maybe some fullbacks that can support your offense. Batista Meier looks like a good prospect but he lacks the, especially mental, skills for a first team player you want to win matches for you.

[Bahnzo]

7 minutes ago, Maddux said:

I'm playing with Dresden too and won the league in the first season with 95 points and also 95 goals scored. I still do ok in second Bundesliga now and are close to a promotion spot but i'm nowhere near as dominant like the season before.

But that's just normal. Dresden has a squad that is way to good for div 3 and still good for div 2. But the players, especially the attackers arend't good enough compared to most defenses in div 2, which leads to many close matches where small things decide between scoring or not. Meißner is a decnt DLF but you need better offensive wingers and maybe some fullbacks that can support your offense. Batista Meier looks like a good prospect but he lacks the, especially mental, skills for a first team player you want to win matches for you.

Congrats for you, but that's not what I'm discussing here. I went from dominating teams to being closed down by those same teams due to how the AI changes. I'm hoping to understand how to revise my tactics to adjust to that. "Get better players" isn't a tactic. 

[Maddux]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Bahnzo:

Congrats for you, but that's not what I'm discussing here. I went from dominating teams to being closed down by those same teams due to how the AI changes. I'm hoping to understand how to revise my tactics to adjust to that. "Get better players" isn't a tactic. 

But often it is.

What you're experiencing currently is the "second season bug". You overachived, your reputation grew and now your opponents start to defend deeper, mark toghter and play more cautious in general. At first you dominated most of your opponents just because your tactics was better than what the AI brings to the table but now you have less space to play in and less time to do something with the ball. And lack the players that can create chances in tighter spaces.

You can stretch your formation, play faster and more direct, maybe try defensive counter football yourself. But in the end it won't change that much if your players are worse than your reputation.

[2calvin]

Mentality? TIs?

Do you change mentality or your TIs? What division are you in? Are you one of the best teams in your league? You can't be losing to everyone, who are you beating/losing to? Are they generally stronger or weaker than you? All this matters

[dzek]

16 minutes ago, Bahnzo said:

Congrats for you, but that's not what I'm discussing here. I went from dominating teams to being closed down by those same teams due to how the AI changes. I'm hoping to understand how to revise my tactics to adjust to that. "Get better players" isn't a tactic. 

I will give you my own advice on how I would approach the changes you are asking for in your tactics.

First of all, behind IF role there is no player behind him who provides width and support. A better option here would be to change FB to WB on support or attack.

MEZ will move in the same space that IF moves and I think sometimes that can be a problem. You can leave it as it is though to observe their combination within matches. An alternative here would be to change MEZ to AP on support. Also it would be good to use one playmaker in your system and not more. So I suggest changing your DLP to DM and change your MCR to CM on attack or BBM.

And finally make your DR become a FB because you already have a player who gives width (Wa) and your FB would be more supportive and provide depth.

[2calvin]

He said he went 22 games unbeaten, I don't think he needs to change half the roles of his outfield players

[Bahnzo]

25 minutes ago, dzek said:

I will give you my own advice on how I would approach the changes you are asking for in your tactics.

First of all, behind IF role there is no player behind him who provides width and support. A better option here would be to change FB to WB on support or attack.

MEZ will move in the same space that IF moves and I think sometimes that can be a problem. You can leave it as it is though to observe their combination within matches. An alternative here would be to change MEZ to AP on support. Also it would be good to use one playmaker in your system and not more. So I suggest changing your DLP to DM and change your MCR to CM on attack or BBM.

And finally make your DR become a FB because you already have a player who gives width (Wa) and your FB would be more supportive and provide depth.

My main problem is buildup. Once I get into the opponents third, I'm actually doing ok. It's getting there which is the problem. I think a lot of what you say makes sense tho. I think I need to either stretch the defense more, so changing the FB to WB might work. Either that or I need more support in midfield. I'm thinking changing a FB to a IWB might work there to give me another passing option. 

I think I might switch the mezz and the ap sides. You are right, the IF and mezz cover the same space. My mezz is my best player and that's his best role, so I'm trying to work with him there. I'll also consider the one playmaker idea, that makes sense. Thanks!

[Bahnzo]

54 minutes ago, 2calvin said:

He said he went 22 games unbeaten, I don't think he needs to change half the roles of his outfield players

See, that's the thing that frustrates me. I was doing great with this tactic. I haven't been promoted to a higher league (yet) and I haven't changed players or had some injury wave hit me. It's simply the AI doing what we all experience: it flips a switch and decides we are now a top team. So we now are being pressed high and hard. And also, man marked heavy I think. I just always struggle with adjusting to that. And I'm sorry, as it sounds rude, but "get better players" or "I did great with that team" isn't telling us how to adjust to that. It's just a humble brag. 

 

Edit: I will agree however that changing some roles, as @dzek is suggesting, does make sense however. When you aren't under all that pressure, you can get away with not having positions/roles being properly used. When that pressure starts, you need to be better setup to deal with it I think. 
 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Bahnzo

[dzek]

2 hours ago, 2calvin said:

He said he went 22 games unbeaten, I don't think he needs to change half the roles of his outfield players

Suddenly not everything can change in one season without any reason. There were problems from the beginning, it's just that for various reasons he was unbeaten. I've learned from my many years of playing the game that if you are having problems on defence, it means your attack is not working efficiently and not putting enough pressure on the AI. If the AI realises that then they will adjust and the wheel will turn in their favour. In every area of the pitch you have to be sure that there is an organised attack.

Also keep in mind that playmakers are like magnets. Each role will look for them in the pitch to play with them and if you lose the ball in the middle of the pitch then you turn the AI’s counterattack into a very dangerous one.

And one last thing... there is no magic formula that you can win with ease... play with the suggestions I gave you above and you can come back here and tell me if everything is going well or not. @Bahnzo

Edited December 21, 2023 by dzek

[Bahnzo]

Alright, so I've tried a couple different strategies, with some different results. 

My first was something I've been wanting to try, which is a 3-2, so using a IFB and a IWB does that with this tactic. I made some other changes in midfield as @dzek suggested as well. This...sorta worked. I think it's worth pointing out, I'm still playing the 3rd division of Germany, so even with a team like Dresden I feel like you need higher level players with the correct attributes to make this sort of tactic work. Like I said, it kind of did. Having the extra DM in midfield did provide another passing option, but it feels like the IWB (at least at this level) just never really put themselves in space to make this a good option. Again, one of the real problems I'm having isn't so much on attack as it is getting into position to setup my attack, and while this did work ok when in the opponent's third, it didn't improve my team getting themselves into position. It's definitely something I'll try later if (when, really) I get promoted and can bring in players more talented and suited. 

My second was to understand I'm in the 3rd division and give up on the 3-2-5 attacking shape and also take more of @dzek's advice into consideration. So play a conventional 433 which players seem better suited for. Change the midfield 3 to only having one playmaker and a WB and FB better setup to interact with my wingers up front. This is working a little better and has let me go back on a streak of 5 games now w/o a loss. I'm still not playing the nice, 1-touch, quick passing football I was playing, but I'll have to accept my team isn't up to that. I'm still struggling some with the transition from defense to offense and getting the ball up the field, but it's improved for sure. 

Finally, I might have to give in to the 4-2-3-1. It just seems like a superior shape in defense and buildup. I hate to give in, as I've always loved playing the 433 for some years now. Hell, maybe I'll go back to a 442. 

My current formation and TI:

Edited December 22, 2023 by Bahnzo

[dzek]

38 minutes ago, Bahnzo said:

Alright, so I've tried a couple different strategies, with some different results. 

My first was something I've been wanting to try, which is a 3-2, so using a IFB and a IWB does that with this tactic. I made some other changes in midfield as @dzek suggested as well. This...sorta worked. I think it's worth pointing out, I'm still playing the 3rd division of Germany, so even with a team like Dresden I feel like you need higher level players with the correct attributes to make this sort of tactic work. Like I said, it kind of did. Having the extra DM in midfield did provide another passing option, but it feels like the IWB (at least at this level) just never really put themselves in space to make this a good option. Again, one of the real problems I'm having isn't so much on attack as it is getting into position to setup my attack, and while this did work ok when in the opponent's third, it didn't improve my team getting themselves into position. It's definitely something I'll try later if (when, really) I get promoted and can bring in players more talented and suited. 

My second was to understand I'm in the 3rd division and give up on the 3-2-5 attacking shape and also take more of @dzek's advice into consideration. So play a conventional 433 which players seem better suited for. Change the midfield 3 to only having one playmaker and a WB and FB better setup to interact with my wingers up front. This is working a little better and has let me go back on a streak of 5 games now w/o a loss. I'm still not playing the nice, 1-touch, quick passing football I was playing, but I'll have to accept my team isn't up to that. I'm still struggling some with the transition from defense to offense and getting the ball up the field, but it's improved for sure. 

Finally, I might have to give in to the 4-2-3-1. It just seems like a superior shape in defense and buildup. I hate to give in, as I've always loved playing the 433 for some years now. Hell, maybe I'll go back to a 442. 

My current formation and TI:

I'm glad the suggestions I gave you have worked somewhat. 
Βased on the instructions you have I would suggest removing the overlaps at least from the left side because the IFs + WBa combination already does that and the right FB would be better not to be pushed so high so that it helps more in the buildup. Now as for the DLP if you see him more often recycling the ball rather than moving it forward I would suggest instruct him through PIs to play 'More Direct Passes'. Also try increasing the Tempo to the maximum so that you can see if your players play 1-touch better or alternatively reduce the Passing Directness to Much Shorter leaving the Tempo as it is and update your progress here.

Edited December 22, 2023 by dzek

[Bahnzo]

1 hour ago, dzek said:

I'm glad the suggestions I gave you have worked somewhat. 
Βased on the instructions you have I would suggest removing the overlaps at least from the left side because the IFs + WBa combination already does that and the right FB would be better not to be pushed so high so that it helps more in the buildup. Now as for the DLP if you see him more often recycling the ball rather than moving it forward I would suggest instruct him through PIs to play 'More Direct Passes'. Also try increasing the Tempo to the maximum so that you can see if your players play 1-touch better or alternatively reduce the Passing Directness to Much Shorter leaving the Tempo as it is and update your progress here.

My main issue with the DLP is that he doesn't get the ball enough in the buildup. That position, regardless of it being a DLP or DM or whatnot, is usually marked. But he does tend to recycle too much and I assumed it's because he's well marked. I'll try the more direct if it's available and see how that changes things. 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Bahnzo