Does Anyone Play A 4-4-2?

[Hoofenballen]

Hello Everyone

 

If youre playing 4-4-2, how are you getting on with it in FM24? Are you using it primarily to defend space in two banks of four? are you trying to bring back old school wing play to a tall striker in the box? Maybe going for something that resembles a Leicester title win or A Fergie era Man Utd tactic?

 

Would live to see your 4-4-2 set up if youre using one

 

 

[Cloud9]

1 hour ago, Hoofenballen said:

Hello Everyone

 

If youre playing 4-4-2, how are you getting on with it in FM24? Are you using it primarily to defend space in two banks of four? are you trying to bring back old school wing play to a tall striker in the box? Maybe going for something that resembles a Leicester title win or A Fergie era Man Utd tactic?

 

Would live to see your 4-4-2 set up if youre using one

 

 

4-4-2 is fantastic this year, IRL and in game 

[Poison]

3 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

IRL

Who is playing 4_4_2 irl ??????????

[pedrosantos]

1 hour ago, Poison said:

Who is playing 4_4_2 irl ??????????

Sérgio Conceição, FC  Porto

[Hoofenballen]

1 hour ago, Poison said:

Who is playing 4_4_2 irl ??????????

Quite a few teams use a 4-4-2 defensive shape.

I like using 4-4-2 on the game as for me its great in defending space between the lines and in half spaces. I can compress the lines between midfield defence and attack, and tuck the wide players inside with player instructions and trapping instructions, and for me, its led to lots of clean sheets.

I agree with @Cloud9 that in this edition of the game, 4-4-2 can be a really effective tactic when setting up the central midfield 2 correctly.

 

[pedrosantos]

6 hours ago, Hoofenballen said:

Hello Everyone

 

If youre playing 4-4-2, how are you getting on with it in FM24? Are you using it primarily to defend space in two banks of four? are you trying to bring back old school wing play to a tall striker in the box? Maybe going for something that resembles a Leicester title win or A Fergie era Man Utd tactic?

 

Would live to see your 4-4-2 set up if youre using one

 

 

I have been using a flat 442 since fm21 or 22 at Porto, very happy with the results. The main idea is to defend as 442 and attack as a 433 (41221), very easy to set up, just push the left winger to the touchline and make him get further and the right winger plays as wide playmaker, cutting inside and running with the ball through the centre.

[HowzatFM]

1 hour ago, Poison said:

Who is playing 4_4_2 irl ??????????

Villa under Emery are playing a 4-4-2, although in position it moves into a 3-2-5

[Maddux]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Poison:

Who is playing 4_4_2 irl ??????????

Frankfurt did in the 5:1 win against Bayern and often plays a fake 4-4-2 building out of a 3-5-2 or 3-4-3 formation. most of the time it's the right CB in the back-3 that does the job of the fullback but against bayern it was the left CB.

[mikcheck]

Real Madrid?

[coach vahid]

Il y a 1 heure, Hoofenballen a dit :

Quite a few teams use a 4-4-2 defensive shape.

I like using 4-4-2 on the game as for me its great in defending space between the lines and in half spaces. I can compress the lines between midfield defence and attack, and tuck the wide players inside with player instructions and trapping instructions, and for me, its led to lots of clean sheets.

I agree with @Cloud9 that in this edition of the game, 4-4-2 can be a really effective tactic when setting up the central midfield 2 correctly.

 

Can you develop more how you build your tactic?

I tried very recently to build a classic 442 on fm22. With 3 mentalities and 3 team instructions. For balanced, i choose in possession "pass into space", in transition "counter" and out of possession "lower line of engagement". But i'm not convinced.

If you can share your advices.

[Rashidi]

9 hours ago, Hoofenballen said:

Hello Everyone

 

If youre playing 4-4-2, how are you getting on with it in FM24? Are you using it primarily to defend space in two banks of four? are you trying to bring back old school wing play to a tall striker in the box? Maybe going for something that resembles a Leicester title win or A Fergie era Man Utd tactic?

 

Would live to see your 4-4-2 set up if youre using one

 

 

My strongest tactics are the 442 and the 5221, I was using them a lot on my streams and now have moved into other lesser played systems. It’s certainly a very powerful option on FM24. 
 

we defend as a 442, build up either as a 3-2 or a 3-1 depending on the opposition. I typically keep 9 roles and duties the same and just adjust the two roles in central midfield for the 3-2/3-1 buildup. So the system easily moves from a 442 into a 325.

[Duracellio]

Would love to see more on this thread. It's my favourite shape irl and I try to emulate it in the game every year...although I always have a hard time to replicate the forwards defensive work.

In real life they have the most important job, regarding the defensive phase, on closing the space in the middle of the pitch, in front of the two MC's, but in the game they always tend to be a bit negligent in their defensive duties and stay way too far from the two MC's.

I know one can always lower the LOE so they defend a bit deeper but that mess up the midfield pushing them a bit behind...

If anyone have found some success with the flat 442 setup would be nice to see so we can exchange some ideas!

[Cloud9]

19 hours ago, Poison said:

Who is playing 4_4_2 irl ??????????

Mostly Spanish influenced setups (I believe they're inspired by the original Atletico Madrid 4-4-2). Villa is the one that catches my eye for their performance under Unai Emery since his appointment. 

Iraola played a hybrid 4-4-2 w/Rayo Vallecano, it'll be interesting to see how much of that is transferred over to an up and coming Bournemouth side. He's also Basque, like Emery, and joins a long list of top managers coming from the tiny region. Arteta, Lopetegui, Xabi Alonso, and Ernesto Valverde are also from the area. Must be something in the water 

Outside of that, Sean Dyche is another premier league manager who has favored the 4-4-2. I think he is playing variations of it at Everton, although it looks a bit more expansive than his 4-4-2 at Burnley. 

[lied90]

Depends on what you mean by 442.

A flat 442 with no DMs is awful because of how it easy it is to attack against formations with nobody between the lines when defending. Even if you set CMs on (D) duty they still don't control that space between midfield and defenders. If you go full out high press etc it can hide the flaws, but that's the case for any formation.

442 DMx2 is a different story, it has been an easy formation to build around for some time.

[jc577]

On 12/12/2023 at 04:30, Cloud9 said:

4-4-2 is fantastic this year, IRL and in game 

Have you written anywhere on your 442 set up? Particularly how to control/block spaces out of possession? I struggle to get the midfield 4 defending compact and narrow which is key to a 442!

[HHUK]

I'm liking the 4-4-2 with two DMs. Just a mid block with orders to step up more, you want to compress the defence and midfield so you defend with 8 men behind the ball. Pretty loose with the roles for most of the positions but the inverted wingers make it all tick.

[2calvin]

Positional play in a 4-4-2 isn't working that well right now because the strikers aren't adjusting their positions. I posted a thread in the bug section with a couple of examples below. Please add your own if you feel the same. For that reason, to achieve a true 3-2-5 shape I prefer to set up in a 4-4-1-1 but the principles are the same. Low block, regroup, counter with even the strongest teams, mid block if I see my team under sustained pressure. My advanced forward wins the ball back regularly in central midfield with this setup.

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by 2calvin

[Duracellio]

@2calvin thanks for sharing.

Have you tried with Defensive mids instead of CMs?

[2calvin]

26 minutes ago, Duracellio said:

@2calvin thanks for sharing.

Have you tried with Defensive mids instead of CMs?

No sorry

[jc577]

51 minutes ago, 2calvin said:

Positional play in a 4-4-2 isn't working that well right now because the strikers aren't adjusting their positions.

Agreed, it feels very awkward & seems like that on the ME. Players don’t take up optimal positions and it looks messy. I’ll try to find some screen shots/upload PKM’s when I’m next on.

[jc577]

On 12/12/2023 at 09:27, Hoofenballen said:

I like using 4-4-2 on the game as for me its great in defending space between the lines and in half spaces. I can compress the lines between midfield defence and attack, and tuck the wide players inside with player instructions and trapping instructions, and for me, its led to lots of clean sheets.

Similarly to above, if you could share your thought process in your 442 it would be much appreciated! The more the merrier 

[olegmelnikov]

I'm using 442 with Kaiserslautern. Very happy with my results:

Every season it was different 442. 

From Cautious mentality with counter-attacking football...with Target man:

Now it is more about fast attacking football.

Sometimes I change player roles (for example BBM to BMW (S), F9 to DPF(S).

If I see that I have space to attack - Pass into space. If my opponent play narrow formation - I change width and play wider. Focus play down the right/left - If I see, that I have a chance to attack the side where my opponent has IWB.

In general, I'm very happy with 442 in FM24. At least in Bundesliga it works.

[Bitner]

I'm using it in Indonesia and i'm having good results so far.
 

PI: LCB - Stay Wider

LB - Cross more, Early crosses

MR - Goes inside with the ball

ML - Stay wide, Goes outside

Attacker centre Right - Roam from position

Attacker centre left - harder tackles

 

Cheers,
Bitner

 

[Cloud9]

On 13/12/2023 at 06:25, jc577 said:

Have you written anywhere on your 442 set up? Particularly how to control/block spaces out of possession? I struggle to get the midfield 4 defending compact and narrow which is key to a 442!

I put together a 4-3-3 over here that would translate easily to a 4-4-2. There's the original 4-4-2 I was playing around with at the start of FM24 in there as well, but it's not defensively sound. 

In a 4-4-2 I'd recommend trapping outside, using a WM/DW to contest the wide areas where you also have the more defensively minded fullbacks. The majority of tactics I've faced are flooding the midfield, so trapping inside is a bit more situational. You get fairly attacking runs off a DW, placing him on the side of the opposition IWB can help. A WP or IW are less conservative options, but aren't always in position to contest out wide due to their inside movement. If you are looking to play more attacking football w/ a 4-4-2 I would recommend giving the WP a go (Villa often play a high line with a 4-4-2, so they could be a good IRL reference point when pointing together such a tactic). 

On the Double Pivot, I'd run them in the DM slots when you're trapping outside. I was enjoying a DM(s) + SV(s) to pair with the DW, but there's a real variety in DM roles that could work well (RGA, RPM, BWM etc.). On the back 4, I'd keep it conservative (Fullbacks over Wingbacks etc). Up top a PF(s) is a favorite of mine, for work off the ball / not changing the style of play like a TF would. Pair him with any spearheading forward and you'll be good to go. 

@herne79 did a really nice 4-4-1-1 that trapped outside, but it got taken down for some reason. 

[jc577]

15 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

I put together a 4-3-3 over here that would translate easily to a 4-4-2. There's the original 4-4-2 I was playing around with at the start of FM24 in there as well, but it's not defensively sound. 

In a 4-4-2 I'd recommend trapping outside, using a WM/DW to contest the wide areas where you also have the more defensively minded fullbacks. The majority of tactics I've faced are flooding the midfield, so trapping inside is a bit more situational. You get fairly attacking runs off a DW, placing him on the side of the opposition IWB can help. A WP or IW are less conservative options, but aren't always in position to contest out wide due to their inside movement. If you are looking to play more attacking football w/ a 4-4-2 I would recommend giving the WP a go (Villa often play a high line with a 4-4-2, so they could be a good IRL reference point when pointing together such a tactic). 

On the Double Pivot, I'd run them in the DM slots when you're trapping outside. I was enjoying a DM(s) + SV(s) to pair with the DW, but there's a real variety in DM roles that could work well (RGA, RPM, BWM etc.). On the back 4, I'd keep it conservative (Fullbacks over Wingbacks etc). Up top a PF(s) is a favorite of mine, for work off the ball / not changing the style of play like a TF would. Pair him with any spearheading forward and you'll be good to go. 

@herne79 did a really nice 4-4-1-1 that trapped outside, but it got taken down for some reason. 

Thanks a lot mate, some really good notes here! Will definitely have a read over that thread. I use an IW-S in my current 442 and have noticed that a lot of counter attacks come down that side (using a FB-A to overlap), but as Herne would say it ultimately comes down to risk vs reward. Contemplating a switch to a WM-S with PI's to encourage a bit more risk, but a WP-S is also an interesting option - less inclined to run with the ball into traffic and lose it compared to the IW. 

Pivot wise I like the idea of a Regista + DM-S/BWM-S combo... win the ball back, give it to the Regista and start moves off quickly. The SV I've found frustrating this year due to the positional play feature, it gets a tad too high up for my liking. 

What are your thoughts on the defensive line/block? Would a mid block be more effective in compressing the space? 

P.S. 

@herne79 Would love to see your 4411& the thought process behind it if you still have it (wouldn't be against an old school write up either!) 

[Cloud9]

2 minutes ago, jc577 said:

Thanks a lot mate, some really good notes here! Will definitely have a read over that thread. I use an IW-S in my current 442 and have noticed that a lot of counter attacks come down that side (using a FB-A to overlap), but as Herne would say it ultimately comes down to risk vs reward. Contemplating a switch to a WM-S with PI's to encourage a bit more risk, but a WP-S is also an interesting option - less inclined to run with the ball into traffic and lose it compared to the IW. 

Pivot wise I like the idea of a Regista + DM-S/BWM-S combo... win the ball back, give it to the Regista and start moves off quickly. The SV I've found frustrating this year due to the positional play feature, it gets a tad too high up for my liking. 

What are your thoughts on the defensive line/block? Would a mid block be more effective in compressing the space? 

P.S. 

@herne79 Would love to see your 4411& the thought process behind it if you still have it (wouldn't be against an old school write up either!) 

Regista gives a great passing range so you can't go too wrong there in a counter attack. Two things to consider: It can make a lot of the play go through him as a central playmaker // he'll have to be quite good to pull it off effectively. 

I would recommend a midblock, standard line to start off with. You can bump the defensive line up to higher for a more compressed zone in matches you feel comfortable doing so. 

[Duracellio]

The thing about the 442 with 2 DM's with lesser teams is that sometimes the midfield gets way too compressed to the defensive line due to the pressure you have to soak sometimes and give away way too much space in our own half to our opponents to work the play.

I tried with medium/higher DL but I guess it has to do with the "mentality" of being an underdog side (i've been testing it only with lesser teams).

To avoid this I tried the assymetric midfield, with a DLP(s) and a CM(s) (for example) and it tends to work better covering the space.

Also tested some things with the 2 upfront. I figured that dropping one striker to the AM(a) position {SS isn't working as well as last year (?)} gives the team a better shape when defending. By employing this kind of 4141 shape (or 41311 to be precise) you still attack in a a 442'ish shape and defend in a 451 wich is more realistic, since in modern football defending with two players upfront completely neglecting the defensive phase like it tends to happen when employing a 2 strikers setup, is completely suicide.

[Cloud9]

5 hours ago, Duracellio said:

The thing about the 442 with 2 DM's with lesser teams is that sometimes the midfield gets way too compressed to the defensive line due to the pressure you have to soak sometimes and give away way too much space in our own half to our opponents to work the play.

I tried with medium/higher DL but I guess it has to do with the "mentality" of being an underdog side (i've been testing it only with lesser teams).

To avoid this I tried the assymetric midfield, with a DLP(s) and a CM(s) (for example) and it tends to work better covering the space.

Also tested some things with the 2 upfront. I figured that dropping one striker to the AM(a) position {SS isn't working as well as last year (?)} gives the team a better shape when defending. By employing this kind of 4141 shape (or 41311 to be precise) you still attack in a a 442'ish shape and defend in a 451 wich is more realistic, since in modern football defending with two players upfront completely neglecting the defensive phase like it tends to happen when employing a 2 strikers setup, is completely suicide.

Trapping outside should help out with that first issue around DMs, where they can help deal with crosses played in/while screening the backline. I would consider bumping them up to the CM strata if you're looking to trap inside to contest sooner. The DM strata also gives you access to some nice roles and can help to deal with crosses played in. I found the SV(s) particularly helpful in closing the gap between my frontmen and midfield, allowing the outside midfielders to remain more static in their attacking responsibilities. 

On the two upfront: an extra man in midfield (DM or AMC) can be useful, but it puts a big burden on the solo striker. If you're running a supporting striker like a PF(s), he won't be a passenger out of possession and can help with the pressing traps themselves. You can then tailor your spearheading striker to close down more. If you're playing a hard working striker pairing, they can serve to create a pressing box of your own between the Strikers and DMs.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Cloud9

[herne79]

10 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

@herne79 did a really nice 4-4-1-1 that trapped outside, but it got taken down for some reason

9 hours ago, jc577 said:

@herne79 Would love to see your 4411& the thought process behind it if you still have it (wouldn't be against an old school write up either!)

I won't go into much detail as it's a 442 thread.  The following did start life as a 442 but I didn't like how it was playing.  I could have resolved issues by using several TIs but it was getting complicated - a much simpler solution was to slightly amend the formation to use 2 x DMs rather than 2 x CMs.  I swapped one of the strikers for an AMC simply because I didn't have many strikers at the club but I did have lots of decent midfielders.

The system (note - I pretty much always start matches with this but I will make small adjustments if I see the need during matches, so this is not plug and play):

Spoiler

However, this is just one side of the coin.  The type of player used is the other side which I think often gets overlooked.  I'll give you some examples of the type of players I use.

1)  For the WM(su) on the right I use James Ward-Prowse (I've been buying him since FM16 and playing him on the right):

Spoiler

Perhaps not everyone's idea of a "winger" - he's slow and only "competent" in position.  But work rate, stamina, crossing & passing ability is exactly what I'm after.  Leadership and free kick taking is the icing on the cake.  He's kind of a current day David Beckham.  His position "rating" (not that I ever pay much attention to that) can always be trained anyway.  So I don't give him the "winger" role - he's not a winger - I play him as a much more free wide midfielder.  It's the combination of the role and player that's important.

 

2)  The Vol(su) is kind of a key role to help link defence to attack.  I could have given it an attack duty, but this is the player I use (Soucek, to begin with):

Spoiler

The key for me here is his work ethic and those Traits.  I simply don't need to give the role an attack duty when combined with that work ethic and Traits.  His passing lets him down so eventually this was my upgrade (I won't mention his name):

Spoiler

Again, that combination of working hard and a Trait to encourage him forward, but this time with some passing ability as well.

Anyway, I won't go through each position and there's one or two PIs dotted around as well.  Hopefully you get the idea that I'm not just looking at the tactic but also the available players and how it all combines.

[jc577]

5 hours ago, herne79 said:

Anyway, I won't go through each position and there's one or two PIs dotted around as well.  Hopefully you get the idea that I'm not just looking at the tactic but also the available players and how it all combines.

This is great detail, thank you. On paper the system looks so simple - not a slight by any means, rather the contrary, and shows the power/importance of player traits. The principles of this tactic reminds me of a 433 you created back in the day, using a wide Treq and a WB-D (Zabeleta I think?) to cover that side. Great stuff. 

6 hours ago, herne79 said:

I could have resolved issues by using several TIs but it was getting complicated - a much simpler solution was to slightly amend the formation to use 2 x DMs rather than 2 x CMs.

Were the issues you experienced to do with the space between your defence/midfield? That's the current issue I'm trying to solve, but some good advice in here.

[herne79]

34 minutes ago, jc577 said:

Were the issues you experienced to do with the space between your defence/midfield

Yes mostly.  With this system I want to avoid using an aggressive mentality and/or a high defensive line/LoE/pressing etc.  I know I’ve set the “Higher Defensive Line” TI but using a DM will push the def line a little deeper, so that one notch extra kinda compensates.

TBH the BWM is the tricky role.  I love using them (I like how they defend and attack), but it needs the right player for what you want to achieve.  A simple DM(s) would probably do as an option.

[mikcheck]

@herne79I've asked in another thread but since you've mentioned the BWM, I'll ask it to you too. Would you use a player with less tackling capacity to tackle in BWM role or would you change it to a DM for example?

This is the BWM I've had in a flat 442 low/medium block  and that I sold to Real Madrid. I don't use attributes but you can see that he excels in all the physicals, tackling and positioning, among other important ones for the role.

This is the guy I have to replace him. He's nowhere near as good and I'm afraid we won't perform that well there:

 

The only thing they have in common is that  both suck in determination  

 

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by mikcheck

[herne79]

3 hours ago, mikcheck said:

@herne79I've asked in another thread but since you've mentioned the BWM, I'll ask it to you too. Would you use a player with less tackling capacity to tackle in BWM role or would you change it to a DM for example?

This is the BWM I've had in a flat 442 low/medium block  and that I sold to Real Madrid. I don't use attributes but you can see that he excels in all the physicals, tackling and positioning, among other important ones for the role.

This is the guy I have to replace him. He's nowhere near as good and I'm afraid we won't perform that well there:

 

The only thing they have in common is that  both suck in determination  

 

 

 

 

The things I like about that second player is he has good Positioning, Anticipation and Decisions.  So he should at least be in the right spot more often than not, and being in the right place at the right time is imo important.  It’ll help with cutting out passing lanes, pressing and interceptions.  Some additional tackling skill could be useful, but it’s not like he can’t tackle at all.

Sure he may not be everyone’s idea of a BWM, but there’s no reason why you can’t try him out and if he doesn’t perform there’s plenty more fish in the sea .

Edited December 15, 2023 by herne79

[Fox-7-]

Hi, I'm having good results in the Scottish Premier League alternating these two versions of 4-4-1-1 DM with asymmetric upfront to resemble a classic 4-4-2, with the aim of being as defensively solid as possible.

This is the version against teams more or less of my level or lower, where even the opponents don't expose themselves too much in attacking me

 

While this is the one I use when I face big teams, where I try to quickly take advantage of the spaces left by the opponent

 

Initially I had an SS in the AMC strata, but he often launched into the attack too early without having supplies and was useless, while now as an AMa he is more involved in both creating and scoring

Edited December 16, 2023 by Fox-7-

[avenger22]

On 13/12/2023 at 16:20, 2calvin said:

Positional play in a 4-4-2 isn't working that well right now because the strikers aren't adjusting their positions. I posted a thread in the bug section with a couple of examples below. Please add your own if you feel the same. For that reason, to achieve a true 3-2-5 shape I prefer to set up in a 4-4-1-1 but the principles are the same. Low block, regroup, counter with even the strongest teams, mid block if I see my team under sustained pressure. My advanced forward wins the ball back regularly in central midfield with this setup.

 

It is funny cause in the trailer for FM24 they had a 4-4-2 turn into a 4-1-4-1 with striker droping in AM which doesn't happen at all in FM which makes it very odd

[Hoofenballen]

I want to preface this by saying i am Bayern Munchen, which is an easy save in terms of winning things, but one where id really like to implement different styles of play and see exactly what each instruction does on the game. Im also not an expert by any means on the game. I took a few years off the game.

I developed this tactic for hard away games like away games in the Champions League or really tough Bundesliga away games where maybe the squad is tired and i cant rotate, or im looking to counter specific threats they have up front, usually 2 players in the attacking mid positions is the one that is particularly tricky.

It works around the principle of defending firstly. The two full backs are told to sit narrower, but both perform different roles. Davies sits narrower, but then runs wide. This is to provide extra width down the left and to work in tandem with Sane, so if we do get a bit of possession it can act as an overload/overlap down the left. Davies has excellent dribbling and can carry the ball up the pitch after winning it back deep. Mazraoui sits narrow but then runs inside, so he goes to sit in a more orthodox central DM position where I ask him to cross from deep. Produces lovely through balls.

I go with narrow attacking width as a starting point but players can be told to "run wide" with the ball. This coupled with "invite crosses" i think helps keep a narrow "two banks of four"structure to our defending, no spaces in between the lines. I also feel the instruction "be more disciplined" helps keep the solid team structure.

In attack, ive sent the mentality to attack, despite the tactic being defensive. Ive heard the game has changed around this, where cautious mentality works well, and ive used this in other tactics at other teams. But i like attacking to encourage fast transitions, and once the players get back into position, an aggressive deep block.

All players who arent "sitting" players are told to dribble more, as they are winning the ball back from a deep position and I want them to carry us up the field. Plus it works well with traits. Goretzka has a trait to get into the area, so with box to box he can pick the ball up deep a bit like a volante and get on the end of things in the box. Kimmich has traits to come deep and switch the ball to wide areas, so he acts like a DLP which is ideal.

This tactic ive adapted for other clubs, Atletico Madrid i used a similar type structure in a 4-4-1-1 and it made me the highest scorer in the league despite playing on the counter attack (its in the la liga thread), whereas this tactic is solid for clean sheets.