Avoiding exploiting tactics

[mikcheck]

In terems of exploiting tactics, what would be the ones that would do that?

For example 3 strikers? Asymmetrical formations?

Even with 2 strikers, should we consider an exploit if they both have attacking duties?

[Maddux]

3 striker formations are often used in exploit tactics but it dosn't necessarily have to be an exploit and asymmetrical formations are often used in real football too. My recreation of Eintracht Frankfurt under Hütter and Glsner is asymmetrical and far away from being an exploit.

One good way to identify an exploit is by looking for sitter + runner pairings. The concept of sitter and runner says that you'll need pairings between a covering player (sitter) and a player that is attacking the ball or spaces (runner) all over the pitch. Like a fullback on support behind a winger on attack, cover and stopper duty on the centrebacks, a defensive midfielder or holding DLP-De in combination with a vertical player like Segundo Volante, CM-A, BBM etc.

Try to identify the sitters and runners in the formation. If you don't have 5 of each then it's, more or less extensive, an exploit. 2 centrebacks on defend duty in a back-4 count as sitter + runner and not as 2 sitter just in case that someone wants to bring that arguement. Exploit tactics often have 7 - 8 runner and just 2 - 3 sitter like the usuall "i won the league with Brentford"-tactics that has both wingbacks/fullbacks on attack, the DM is a Regista at best, and everyone else except for the centrebacks have vertical roles and duties too.

Don't think that i judge people for using such tactics. FM is a singleplayer game and everyone can play it how he or she wants. But tactics like that have nothing to do with realistic football.

[mikcheck]

19 horas atrás, Maddux disse:

3 striker formations are often used in exploit tactics but it dosn't necessarily have to be an exploit and asymmetrical formations are often used in real football too. My recreation of Eintracht Frankfurt under Hütter and Glsner is asymmetrical and far away from being an exploit.

One good way to identify an exploit is by looking for sitter + runner pairings. The concept of sitter and runner says that you'll need pairings between a covering player (sitter) and a player that is attacking the ball or spaces (runner) all over the pitch. Like a fullback on support behind a winger on attack, cover and stopper duty on the centrebacks, a defensive midfielder or holding DLP-De in combination with a vertical player like Segundo Volante, CM-A, BBM etc.

Try to identify the sitters and runners in the formation. If you don't have 5 of each then it's, more or less extensive, an exploit. 2 centrebacks on defend duty in a back-4 count as sitter + runner and not as 2 sitter just in case that someone wants to bring that arguement. Exploit tactics often have 7 - 8 runner and just 2 - 3 sitter like the usuall "i won the league with Brentford"-tactics that has both wingbacks/fullbacks on attack, the DM is a Regista at best, and everyone else except for the centrebacks have vertical roles and duties too.

Don't think that i judge people for using such tactics. FM is a singleplayer game and everyone can play it how he or she wants. But tactics like that have nothing to do with realistic football.

You mean like this one that Rashidi used in one of his videos  

 

[Maddux]

vor 24 Minuten schrieb mikcheck:

You mean like this one that Rashidi used in one of his videos  

 

[khodder]

On 11/12/2023 at 03:45, Maddux said:

If you don't have 5 of each then it's, more or less extensive, an exploit. 2 centrebacks on defend duty in a back-4 count as sitter + runner and not as 2 sitter just in case that someone wants to bring that arguement. Exploit tactics often have 7 - 8 runner and just 2 - 3 sitter like the usuall "i won the league with Brentford"-tactics that has both wingbacks/fullbacks on attack, the DM is a Regista at best, and everyone else except for the centrebacks have vertical roles and duties too.

Don't think that i judge people for using such tactics. FM is a singleplayer game and everyone can play it how he or she wants. But tactics like that have nothing to do with realistic football.

I mean; This part of this ignores the fact that a 3-1-6 attacking pattern exists. I'd argue that you're more looking for balance in pitch areas. Two or three runners coming from central midfield is an attempt to exploit, but it could also fit within the bounds of 5 runners/5 sitters.

[Cloud9]

On 10/12/2023 at 08:11, mikcheck said:

In terems of exploiting tactics, what would be the ones that would do that?

For example 3 strikers? Asymmetrical formations?

Even with 2 strikers, should we consider an exploit if they both have attacking duties?

Doubles of powerful roles are a strong tell: Ie. SV(a), CM(a), AF, IWB(a) etc. 

Usually in a good tactic you can see what they're trying to do. In an exploitative one they're trying to make the AI have a hard time. 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Cloud9

[Brian]

3 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Doubles of powerful roles are a strong tell: Ie. SV(a), CM(a), AF, IWB(a) etc. 

Usually in a good tactic you can see what they're trying to do. In an exploitative one they're trying to make the AI have a hard time. 

Same here. Using a 3 striker formation in the lower leagues of England (10th tier), because the defenders on that level have a very hard time dealing with 3 strikers pressing and moving. 

[Mutumba]

In fm23, if a tactic had more than one AF upfront I would more or less consider it an exploit ( based on the hundreds of tactics over at FM Arena where they all looked pretty much identical)

[Maddux]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb khodder:

I mean; This part of this ignores the fact that a 3-1-6 attacking pattern exists. I'd argue that you're more looking for balance in pitch areas. Two or three runners coming from central midfield is an attempt to exploit, but it could also fit within the bounds of 5 runners/5 sitters.

The sitter/runner concept is something you'll need to keep in mind if you want to create a balanced tactics with good coverage of offensive and defensive spaces. Or covering defensive spaces in transition after losing the ball the be exact. Of course in the real world you sometimes have to ignore this balance and take some risks because you really need a goal. Or the balance falls apart naturally when pushing up. In the 433 i've posted everyone except for the 2 centrebacks will be in or around the opposition third if you keep the ball long enough. But that's ok because the opponents are pushed back and are bound with man-marking duties with just one or two strikers staying forward.

This is the case for the 3-1-6 shape too. You take the risk that come with having just 4 sitter in your tactics because the advantages in offense outweight the defensive risks for you and you think that your defenders are good enough to clear the defensive situations. You also bind some off your opponents attackers in defense to prevent you from having numerical advantages. But even then we're talking just about a 4/6 sitter/runner ratio. Most exploit tactics have a 3/7 or 2/8 ratio and this makes it a good indicator. Not the only indicator but one of them.

[mikcheck]

5 horas atrás, Cloud9 disse:

Doubles of powerful roles are a strong tell: Ie. SV(a), CM(a), AF, IWB(a) etc. 

Usually in a good tactic you can see what they're trying to do. In an exploitative one they're trying to make the AI have a hard time. 

Would you consider exploitative to use 2 strikers on attack duty?

2 horas atrás, Brian disse:

Same here. Using a 3 striker formation in the lower leagues of England (10th tier), because the defenders on that level have a very hard time dealing with 3 strikers pressing and moving. 

What results are you having?

[Maddux]

@mikcheck

It depends™

2 advanced forwards are some kind of exploit while a DLF-At + AF/CF-At dosn't necessarily have to be an exploit. But it is an exploit if you combine it with a shadow striker because then you have the classic 3 striker on attack exploit. Just with 2 of them strting from a 5 meters deeper position.

3 striker dosn't have to be an exploit if you set it up right. I'm developing an asymmetrical 3-5-2 for a couple years that recreates Eintracht Frankfurt under Adi Hütter and Oliver Glasner with a combination of advanced forward, DLF-Su and shadow striker/trequartista. It creates a lot of counter movement and the 3 advanced players behave like the front-3 in a classic 442 diamond narrow formation. It's a 343/3412 formation in defence and a 442 diamond narrow in possession.

[Brian]

59 minutes ago, mikcheck said:

What results are you having?

With the limited strikers at my disposable, very good! 

League table

Spoiler

Results (The bad run in form was when I had to play 2 attackers, due to an injury)

Spoiler

Tactic

Spoiler

Main strikers (Hibbs was the one injured)

Spoiler

 

[StatboySpurs]

On 10/12/2023 at 11:11, mikcheck said:

In terems of exploiting tactics, what would be the ones that would do that?

For example 3 strikers? Asymmetrical formations?

Even with 2 strikers, should we consider an exploit if they both have attacking duties?

One of my personal rules is that I can't use any formation that the AI can't use. I used to do that some, but it felt like I was exploiting the game.

[Cloud9]

16 hours ago, mikcheck said:

Would you consider exploitative to use 2 strikers on attack duty?

Mainly as long as they aren't both AF  If one has hold the ball up you should be clear of exploitation. I would recommend running one on support duty for a more interesting approach. 

There's also intent to consider, if you're not actively attempting to break the game but just experimenting with different approaches I think that's fine as well. You could also be looking to emulate an IRL strike partnership where both were active goalscorers (Suarez, Cavani springs to mind). 

[avenger22]

Exploit is mostly TI wise mostly i mean high press, high line, get stuck in, much more often trigger press, step up more, high tempo, short passing stuff like this tested thousands of times this is more an exploit but the combination is very realistic in real life i mean all top teams press high, move the ball very fast and attack the box with many players it is how football is played now, also as above posters said attack roles is huge exploit especially CM(a) sv(a), WB(A), 2 or 3 AF(a) so attack overpowers support in most cases and shapes is very powerful.

[lied90]

Imo there is no such thing as an exploit tactic. Just based on what is considered an exploit in other games, the term exploit is used in a very weird way on this forum imo. It's more of a balance issue if anything, and that balance issue has been in the game for a very long time.

But to answer the thread starters question. What a lot of people consider exploit tactics are less about roles and formations and more about team instructions. You can greatly overachieve with almost any formation, and a wide variety of roles as long as you have these instructions (with minor variations):

[whatsupdoc]

Sit off and don't use an advanced forward, IWB or any AM. 

[crusadertsar]

4 hours ago, lied90 said:

Imo there is no such thing as an exploit tactic. Just based on what is considered an exploit in other games, the term exploit is used in a very weird way on this forum imo. It's more of a balance issue if anything, and that balance issue has been in the game for a very long time.

But to answer the thread starters question. What a lot of people consider exploit tactics are less about roles and formations and more about team instructions. You can greatly overachieve with almost any formation, and a wide variety of roles as long as you have these instructions (with minor variations):

Totally agree with this! It's not so much roles but combination of team instructions, mentality and duties. The moment I see attacking mentality with the long list of instructions like ones you showed above (and usually combined with about 5-7 attack duties) I am turned off right away. The tactic creator can claim to win titles with all the underdogs they want, I know exactly what they are doing. And it doesn't interest me. The ultra attacking geggenpress seems to be the meta tactic right now and it's so so boring.

Edited December 21, 2023 by crusadertsar

[Drake]

8 hours ago, lied90 said:

Imo there is no such thing as an exploit tactic. Just based on what is considered an exploit in other games, the term exploit is used in a very weird way on this forum imo. It's more of a balance issue if anything, and that balance issue has been in the game for a very long time.

But to answer the thread starters question. What a lot of people consider exploit tactics are less about roles and formations and more about team instructions. You can greatly overachieve with almost any formation, and a wide variety of roles as long as you have these instructions (with minor variations):

exactly this.

However, just for the sake of argument, it can also be noted that using a lot of attacking roles which wouldn't make sense in real life is also often a sign of an "exploit" tactic (and those same tactics that use those instructions on your screenshot often do that too). And in this case it's kind of justified to call that an exploit I think. It's exploiting a particular weakness of the match engine. I think you can say the issue is more about the balance if, let's say, CF(s) constantly outpeforms F9 or DLF(s) in any tactic. But if a tactic uses 3 AFs which no one ever does IRL - that's more of an exploit IMO, as that works only because ME AI has no idea how to defend against it and how to punish it. You're right that currently overachievement can be done with variety or roles though, as long as certain prerequisites are met.

It can probably be boiled down to having the most proactive tactic possible. People are having some ridiculous results with attacking or very attacking mentality and lots of roles running forward. It's just that attacking roles naturally tend to run forward so they are typically overused in such tactics. Forward passes, lots of people who can get on the end of them as fast as possible = AI can't defend. And unless AI itself uses gegenpress it's nearly helpless to prevent being destroyed. It's customary to have 30-40% of possession and just absolutely dominate and destroy. Hard tackling and pressing just allows you to win the ball more often so you can immediately play it forward more often.

The really bad thing is that even without 3 AFs or lots of people on attack - you can still vastly overachieve. Even with tactics that aren't, on paper, unrealistic - and that is a balance issue, yes. They just work, much, much better and that honestly is a source of considerable demotivation to play the game in its current state.  I honestly do not remember last time it felt as skewed to one side as it is now.

[dzek]

7 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

The tactic creator can claim to win titles with all the underdogs they want, I know exactly what they are doing.

What exactly do you mean here? You mean you know what each TI does exactly or the creator?

[crusadertsar]

42 minutes ago, dzek said:

What exactly do you mean here? You mean you know what each TI does exactly or the creator?

I just meant it as as a shot at meta exploit instructions and players who use them. At this point I see that same combo of attacking mentality and duties and 4-5 team instructions for highest LOE, highest defensive line and counterpress, get stuck in and max closing down. Most of the tactics in the download section here use them. Or if you check on other sites like fmscout. It's not very original. But I guess it wins games and trophies if that is all that FM were for. To me the satisfaction is always in the process of coming up with a tactic and tweaking it endlessly, not using some cookie cutter formula. 

Edited December 21, 2023 by crusadertsar

[Maddux]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb crusadertsar:

I just meant it as as a shot at meta exploit instructions and players who use them. At this point I see that same combo of attacking mentality and duties and 4-5 team instructions for highest LOE, highest defensive line and counterpress and max closing down. Most of the tactics in the download section here use them. Or if you check on other sites like fmscout. It's not very original. But I guess it wins games and trophies if that is all that FM were for. To me the satisfaction is always in the process of coming up with a tactic and tweaking it endlessly, not downloading some cookie cutter formula. 

The last time i've uploaded a tactics on FMScout the admin had the urge to add "JUST 10 TIs" to the thumbnail and highlight it

[avenger22]

1 hour ago, crusadertsar said:

I just meant it as as a shot at meta exploit instructions and players who use them. At this point I see that same combo of attacking mentality and duties and 4-5 team instructions for highest LOE, highest defensive line and counterpress, get stuck in and max closing down. Most of the tactics in the download section here use them. Or if you check on other sites like fmscout. It's not very original. But I guess it wins games and trophies if that is all that FM were for. To me the satisfaction is always in the process of coming up with a tactic and tweaking it endlessly, not using some cookie cutter formula. 

It still doesn't change the fact that is much better to play with the meta ones also the way your team plays looks much better it is not about winning every game is about seeing a team playing maxed close to perfection tactical wise the intensity press, tempo, overloads everything that is why meta is for some players who enjoy it it is something on players choose.
Meta is not some plug and play tactics in sites which claims good tactic and then catastrophe, majority of meta tactics are very well studied and make perfect sense is not just put 10 strikers and attack is balance or how the game can be maxed tactical wise nothing more nothing less, in fact all the TI are meta irl too, i mean low crosses, high tempo, high press all best teams do it and all overachieving teams do it, Girona is playing FM TI in real life like literally.

Edited December 21, 2023 by avenger22

[avenger22]

1 hour ago, Maddux said:

The last time i've uploaded a tactics on FMScout the admin had the urge to add "JUST 10 TIs" to the thumbnail and highlight it

FMScout is a fantastic site for everything when it comes to FM but in tactics is far from the best even though it has quite early tactical sharing but meta wise not close there are rarely meta tactics there

Edited December 21, 2023 by avenger22

[avenger22]

13 hours ago, lied90 said:

Imo there is no such thing as an exploit tactic. Just based on what is considered an exploit in other games, the term exploit is used in a very weird way on this forum imo. It's more of a balance issue if anything, and that balance issue has been in the game for a very long time.

But to answer the thread starters question. What a lot of people consider exploit tactics are less about roles and formations and more about team instructions. You can greatly overachieve with almost any formation, and a wide variety of roles as long as you have these instructions (with minor variations):

Someone who got it

[Maddux]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb avenger22:

FMScout is a fantastic site for everything when it comes to FM but in tactics is far from the best even though it has quite early tactical sharing but meta wise not close there are rarely meta tactics there

EVERY major and many smaller content creators publish their tactics on FMScout. It's probably THE site for downloading tactics and you can find every "meta" tactics there that was uploaded to youtube. The people that publish tactics on FMScout basicly created the "meta". And now you're telling me that you can rarely find any "meta" tactics there?

These TIs are just "meta" because they have fewer or less severe negative effects and [insert random big content creator] was successful with it. And now everyone joins the hype train and is telling all kind of excuses whenever their "lot of success treble winning with Burnley meta Gegenpress"-tactics isn't working at all. Most of my own creations use very few TIs with a mid block because i personally prefer the midfield pressing. No "meta" TIs, highly customizable depending on your squad and your opponent but still very successful.

And at this point i wonder if you even know what the term "meta" means and/or when to use it correctly. Talking about the "meta" in FM is like talking about your "meta" when playing Magic: the Gathering with your friends at the kitchen table. There just isn't one.

[wazzaflow10]

Just turned a 1-2 game around to win 4-2 with this formation with a high press hard tackling attacking mentality and very direct passing. In my defense, I had 65% possession and endlessly watched my players shoot from 30 yards instead of passing to open teammates inside the box prior to this change. Probably on the edge of "exploit".

Edited December 22, 2023 by wazzaflow10

[lied90]

14 hours ago, Drake said:

exactly this.

However, just for the sake of argument, it can also be noted that using a lot of attacking roles which wouldn't make sense in real life is also often a sign of an "exploit" tactic (and those same tactics that use those instructions on your screenshot often do that too). And in this case it's kind of justified to call that an exploit I think. It's exploiting a particular weakness of the match engine. I think you can say the issue is more about the balance if, let's say, CF(s) constantly outpeforms F9 or DLF(s) in any tactic. But if a tactic uses 3 AFs which no one ever does IRL - that's more of an exploit IMO, as that works only because ME AI has no idea how to defend against it and how to punish it. You're right that currently overachievement can be done with variety or roles though, as long as certain prerequisites are met.

It can probably be boiled down to having the most proactive tactic possible. People are having some ridiculous results with attacking or very attacking mentality and lots of roles running forward. It's just that attacking roles naturally tend to run forward so they are typically overused in such tactics. Forward passes, lots of people who can get on the end of them as fast as possible = AI can't defend. And unless AI itself uses gegenpress it's nearly helpless to prevent being destroyed. It's customary to have 30-40% of possession and just absolutely dominate and destroy. Hard tackling and pressing just allows you to win the ball more often so you can immediately play it forward more often.

The really bad thing is that even without 3 AFs or lots of people on attack - you can still vastly overachieve. Even with tactics that aren't, on paper, unrealistic - and that is a balance issue, yes. They just work, much, much better and that honestly is a source of considerable demotivation to play the game in its current state.  I honestly do not remember last time it felt as skewed to one side as it is now.

But the top performing(in terms of test scores) tactics don't always have everyone on attack, or even attacking mentality. The highest one for a period had only 3-4 attack duties, on balanced iirc. For a long time AF was the only role used for strikers, now it's CF and/or AF.

It evolves as everything is tested by simple trial and error. Last year it wasnt high line high press, it was very low LOE and high press. 

I don't view this as exploiting anything, it's simply testing what works and what doesn't. Then knowledge accumulate as more and more things are tested.

It's not a very romantic way to go about football, but in a football simulation game where everything can be simulated to infinity, it makes sense.

[felley]

I don't mind there being a meta or exploit tactics. If people want to go that route, it's a game that you can run as a simulation if you want, so feel free. I have big sympathy with SI as it must be a nightmare to balance something like that.

The bit that gets to me is that I will always feel I'm at a disadvantage if I don't use the meta. I often wish I didn't know it but I guess it's been fairly similar for 6-7 years now - gegenpress to death. Last year I had a save with VfL Bochum where I tried to build a sensible defence oriented tactic to keep us up and had really mixed results. Barely stayed up and didn't really have the funds to revamp the squad so felt I was in a groundhog day sort of situation. Told my mate about my predicament and how hard it was with Bochum, he fired up a save with an Attacking, Gegenpressing tactic and got Europa League with them first season. Proper killed the save for me. I know I could be safe in the knowledge that I was being "more realistic" but the difference was so stark.

The other point I'd make is that football is a lot more random than FM makes us feel it is, so I guess the wild results or swings if you decide to up the tempo, pressing etc. and give the opposition a headache, aren't that unrealistic. IMO the only solution is to make Gegenpressing a lot harder to pull off. Unless you have elite physical specimens and elite physios/sports scientists, it should essentially be off limits as a main tactic. There might be uproar in the community if this was the case, but perhaps the tactic creator will move away from the on/off switches it currently has eventually and pressing wil become as smart as IRL where teams conserve their energy in certain phases.

[Maddux]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb felley:

I don't mind there being a meta or exploit tactics. If people want to go that route, it's a game that you can run as a simulation if you want, so feel free. I have big sympathy with SI as it must be a nightmare to balance something like that.

The bit that gets to me is that I will always feel I'm at a disadvantage if I don't use the meta. I often wish I didn't know it but I guess it's been fairly similar for 6-7 years now - gegenpress to death. Last year I had a save with VfL Bochum where I tried to build a sensible defence oriented tactic to keep us up and had really mixed results. Barely stayed up and didn't really have the funds to revamp the squad so felt I was in a groundhog day sort of situation. Told my mate about my predicament and how hard it was with Bochum, he fired up a save with an Attacking, Gegenpressing tactic and got Europa League with them first season. Proper killed the save for me. I know I could be safe in the knowledge that I was being "more realistic" but the difference was so stark.

The other point I'd make is that football is a lot more random than FM makes us feel it is, so I guess the wild results or swings if you decide to up the tempo, pressing etc. and give the opposition a headache, aren't that unrealistic. IMO the only solution is to make Gegenpressing a lot harder to pull off. Unless you have elite physical specimens and elite physios/sports scientists, it should essentially be off limits as a main tactic. There might be uproar in the community if this was the case, but perhaps the tactic creator will move away from the on/off switches it currently has eventually and pressing wil become as smart as IRL where teams conserve their energy in certain phases.

But there you have it.

Bochum is a small club with players that arend't that gifted but have high aggression and are overall good in all the relevant defensive attributes. The squad is made for pressing, dosn't matter if high gegenpressing or a deeper midfield press. And you're playing in the Bundesliga. Have you ever watched any reallife Bundesliga matches? It's actually the worst football in europes top leagues because it's all just Gegenpressing and counterattacks. Literally everyone switched to gegenpress after Klopp showed at Dortmund that even small clubs have some success with it and are better off with gegenpress than with just parking the bus. Ralf Rangnik had a huge influence too.

And it's not just that everyone is using gegenpress, also every club, except for a few top clubs like Leverkusen, is building the squad to get the most out of gegenpress and counter attacks. Literally everyone is playing with a back-3, 2 fast wingbacks that have 0 skills but being fast and hitting crosses, 2 or 3 hard working midfielders that are good at winning the ball plus 2 Usain Bolt-like strikers. Creative midfielders that can dictate the play and find solutions against compact defenses? You won't find any outside of the top-4 even when using a microscope.

7 out of 9 matches every weekend are just 2 teams sitting deep and try to win with counter attacks after a successful gegenpress. It's horrible football and also a self-fullfilling prophecy. If your opponents don't have midfielders with good enough technical abilities to escape the gegenpress then it's obviously easier to win the ball back against them using pressing. And that#s what your friend experienced with Bochum. He used high pressing with a squad where even the goalie is a ball-winning midfielder vs opponents that don't have the ability to play their way out of the press.

Edit Bochum to La Liga or the Premier League and try the same thing there. Or with a small club in the first belgian or dutch league. You won't be even nearly as successful because most of your opponents technical attributes are good enough compared to your squad to escape the press and overrun your high rest defence.

[crusadertsar]

59 minutes ago, Maddux said:

But there you have it.

Bochum is a small club with players that arend't that gifted but have high aggression and are overall good in all the relevant defensive attributes. The squad is made for pressing, dosn't matter if high gegenpressing or a deeper midfield press. And you're playing in the Bundesliga. Have you ever watched any reallife Bundesliga matches? It's actually the worst football in europes top leagues because it's all just Gegenpressing and counterattacks. Literally everyone switched to gegenpress after Klopp showed at Dortmund that even small clubs have some success with it and are better off with gegenpress than with just parking the bus. Ralf Rangnik had a huge influence too.

And it's not just that everyone is using gegenpress, also every club, except for a few top clubs like Leverkusen, is building the squad to get the most out of gegenpress and counter attacks. Literally everyone is playing with a back-3, 2 fast wingbacks that have 0 skills but being fast and hitting crosses, 2 or 3 hard working midfielders that are good at winning the ball plus 2 Usain Bolt-like strikers. Creative midfielders that can dictate the play and find solutions against compact defenses? You won't find any outside of the top-4 even when using a microscope.

7 out of 9 matches every weekend are just 2 teams sitting deep and try to win with counter attacks after a successful gegenpress. It's horrible football and also a self-fullfilling prophecy. If your opponents don't have midfielders with good enough technical abilities to escape the gegenpress then it's obviously easier to win the ball back against them using pressing. And that#s what your friend experienced with Bochum. He used high pressing with a squad where even the goalie is a ball-winning midfielder vs opponents that don't have the ability to play their way out of the press.

Edit Bochum to La Liga or the Premier League and try the same thing there. Or with a small club in the first belgian or dutch league. You won't be even nearly as successful because most of your opponents technical attributes are good enough compared to your squad to escape the press and overrun your high rest defence.

This is spot on! The main reason that I can't stand Bundesliga right now. And why I have been managing almost exclusively in LaLiga for the last 3-4 versions of FM. 

[lied90]

5 hours ago, Maddux said:

But there you have it.

Bochum is a small club with players that arend't that gifted but have high aggression and are overall good in all the relevant defensive attributes. The squad is made for pressing, dosn't matter if high gegenpressing or a deeper midfield press. And you're playing in the Bundesliga. Have you ever watched any reallife Bundesliga matches? It's actually the worst football in europes top leagues because it's all just Gegenpressing and counterattacks. Literally everyone switched to gegenpress after Klopp showed at Dortmund that even small clubs have some success with it and are better off with gegenpress than with just parking the bus. Ralf Rangnik had a huge influence too.

And it's not just that everyone is using gegenpress, also every club, except for a few top clubs like Leverkusen, is building the squad to get the most out of gegenpress and counter attacks. Literally everyone is playing with a back-3, 2 fast wingbacks that have 0 skills but being fast and hitting crosses, 2 or 3 hard working midfielders that are good at winning the ball plus 2 Usain Bolt-like strikers. Creative midfielders that can dictate the play and find solutions against compact defenses? You won't find any outside of the top-4 even when using a microscope.

7 out of 9 matches every weekend are just 2 teams sitting deep and try to win with counter attacks after a successful gegenpress. It's horrible football and also a self-fullfilling prophecy. If your opponents don't have midfielders with good enough technical abilities to escape the gegenpress then it's obviously easier to win the ball back against them using pressing. And that#s what your friend experienced with Bochum. He used high pressing with a squad where even the goalie is a ball-winning midfielder vs opponents that don't have the ability to play their way out of the press.

Edit Bochum to La Liga or the Premier League and try the same thing there. Or with a small club in the first belgian or dutch league. You won't be even nearly as successful because most of your opponents technical attributes are good enough compared to your squad to escape the press and overrun your high rest defence.

You can get european football with the likes of Luton with gegenpress tactics so I don't get this.

[whatsupdoc]

1 hour ago, lied90 said:

You can get european football with the likes of Luton with gegenpress tactics so I don't get this.

Correct. The whole point about gegenpress is that neither your players attributes nor your opponents matter enough. It's just hard coded in a way that suits the ME better. 

Add a goalscoring AM and an AF and you can win most matches without checking attributes or touching anything. 

Edited December 22, 2023 by whatsupdoc

[felley]

6 hours ago, Maddux said:

But there you have it.

Bochum is a small club with players that arend't that gifted but have high aggression and are overall good in all the relevant defensive attributes. The squad is made for pressing, dosn't matter if high gegenpressing or a deeper midfield press. And you're playing in the Bundesliga. Have you ever watched any reallife Bundesliga matches? It's actually the worst football in europes top leagues because it's all just Gegenpressing and counterattacks. Literally everyone switched to gegenpress after Klopp showed at Dortmund that even small clubs have some success with it and are better off with gegenpress than with just parking the bus. Ralf Rangnik had a huge influence too.

And it's not just that everyone is using gegenpress, also every club, except for a few top clubs like Leverkusen, is building the squad to get the most out of gegenpress and counter attacks. Literally everyone is playing with a back-3, 2 fast wingbacks that have 0 skills but being fast and hitting crosses, 2 or 3 hard working midfielders that are good at winning the ball plus 2 Usain Bolt-like strikers. Creative midfielders that can dictate the play and find solutions against compact defenses? You won't find any outside of the top-4 even when using a microscope.

7 out of 9 matches every weekend are just 2 teams sitting deep and try to win with counter attacks after a successful gegenpress. It's horrible football and also a self-fullfilling prophecy. If your opponents don't have midfielders with good enough technical abilities to escape the gegenpress then it's obviously easier to win the ball back against them using pressing. And that#s what your friend experienced with Bochum. He used high pressing with a squad where even the goalie is a ball-winning midfielder vs opponents that don't have the ability to play their way out of the press.

Edit Bochum to La Liga or the Premier League and try the same thing there. Or with a small club in the first belgian or dutch league. You won't be even nearly as successful because most of your opponents technical attributes are good enough compared to your squad to escape the press and overrun your high rest defence.

I live in Germany and I'm a Bochum fan. I watch the Bundesliga most weeks, at least the highlights. I don't agree that they all just use Gegenpressing, but they certainly almost all play in the transitions much more capably than other leagues. IMO this has a lot to do with the quality of defender in the Bundesliga, not just the tactics/coaching. I remember years back everyone going on about Man United being stupid to get rid of Chicharito becuase he was scoring for fun at Leverkusen and I couldn't help but think "yeah but 15 of his opponents have basically 2nd league quality defenders". If anything I think Löw, Klinsmann, the class of 2014 and Manuel Neuer have all had just as much of an impact with their technical revolution, meaning defenders and goalkeepers are more likely to be better on the ball than off it.

You're right to an extent that Bochum are "built" for the Gegenpress, in so much as they possess lots of players with a great work ethic, but that's not all that matters. You need the technique at speed, decision making and above all, elite fitness to pull it off IRL every week. Bochum have had their fair share of players made of glass in recent years (becuase it's what they can afford). And technique is not something I'd expect to see in abundance at the Ruhrstadion. I get your angle but Europa League with their 22/23 squad is really unrealistic.

Also you've made my point for me when you talk about rest defence. Why didn't my mate concede 3-4 goals a game? IRL teams would be smart enough to pick Bochum off even if the are being intense. Or like you say, both teams press like hell and the result becomes a coinflip. Either way it proves my point that my mate's result shows there is a meta and that it disappoints me that I'll always have that temptation, when playing a completely different style, to flip the Gegenpressing switch in order to start getting success. Like I said, I'm not overly arsed that this is the case, but I'd prefer if it wasn't.

[jcafcwbb]

If you look at real life football then teams have used exploits to over-achieve. You currently see it with Girona and Leverkeusen. In the last couple of seasons Brighton have used tactics to over-achieve.

The thing is in real life the bigger teams learn how to counter it and that is maybe what the game is lacking. Leicester won the title using an exploit IRL but they lost two of their best players and that nullified the edge. Teams have adjusted to Brighton's edge. I remember Sheffield United under Wilder for the first time surprised teams in the Prem as did Brentford but adjustments have been made - and Toney may be bought by Arsenal in the January window.

My team IRL, AFC Wimbledon,  in League Two in England have had success with the high press. We have built a tactic that now bedded in and teams struggle with it. We have a bottom half budget but are in the playoff positions.

It is is unfair to criticise the game for exploits that work in real life. What the game maybe needs to develop is AI that can counter the exploits. It can be done by bigger clubs buying lynch pins in an exploitative tactic or adjusting their own tactics for particular matches like the top coaches do.

 

 

[crusadertsar]

6 hours ago, jcafcwbb said:

If you look at real life football then teams have used exploits to over-achieve. You currently see it with Girona and Leverkeusen. In the last couple of seasons Brighton have used tactics to over-achieve.

The thing is in real life the bigger teams learn how to counter it and that is maybe what the game is lacking. Leicester won the title using an exploit IRL but they lost two of their best players and that nullified the edge. Teams have adjusted to Brighton's edge. I remember Sheffield United under Wilder for the first time surprised teams in the Prem as did Brentford but adjustments have been made - and Toney may be bought by Arsenal in the January window.

My team IRL, AFC Wimbledon,  in League Two in England have had success with the high press. We have built a tactic that now bedded in and teams struggle with it. We have a bottom half budget but are in the playoff positions.

It is is unfair to criticise the game for exploits that work in real life. What the game maybe needs to develop is AI that can counter the exploits. It can be done by bigger clubs buying lynch pins in an exploitative tactic or adjusting their own tactics for particular matches like the top coaches do.

 

 

I dont think you understand the difference between what exploit means in game and overachieving in real life. You can overachieve with any tactic in the game if it fits your players . What "exploiting" is, is using the same set of cookie cutter geggenpress instructions, and I mean literally the same, I see like 100 tactics with same instructions of highest defensive line, highest line of engagement, max pressing geggenpress, get stuck in. And then using those same instructions with any formation really as long as it's top heavy and mostly comprised of attack duties. It will win you most anything with any team. That is not overachieving like in real life, it's more comparable to grown pro footballers playing against a bunch of 10 year olds, because that's equivalent of how AI can handle this. Not fun overachievement if you ask me. 

Edited December 23, 2023 by crusadertsar

[jcafcwbb]

22 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

I dont think you understand the difference between what exploit means in game and overachieving in real life. You can overachieve with any tactic in the game if it fits your players . What "exploiting" is, is using the same set of cookie cutter geggenpress instructions, ad I mean literally the same, I see like 100 tactics with same instructions of highest defensive line, highest defensive line, max pressing geggenpress, get stuck in. And then using those same instructions with any formation really as long as it's top heavy and mostly comprised of attack duties. It will win you most anything with any team. That is not overachieving like in real life, it's more comparable to grown pro footballers playing against a bunch of 10 year olds, because that's equivalent of how AI can handle this. Not fun overachievement if you ask me. 

If you think that the Gengenpress instructions are over-powered then do not use them. It is your game and your time so set yourself challenges to allow yourself to enjoy the game. If you want to use OPed tactics then do so. BTW I am not telling you not to use them - just suggesting it. 

I only use the preset tactics with no tweaks, roles and mentalities with no PIs and leave the signings to my DOF. That means I do not exploit the game with either tactics or signing wunderkids my team would never sign in real life. 

I have only used Gengenpress once and it didn't work. My squad is best served to use wing-play but I sometimes switch to fluid counter attack if I am defending a lead. I use formation to counter opponents - ie two DMs to counter an AM behind two strikers. I have found a way to be successful without using an exploit. The games and the league are closer and the game is more fun for me. More fun than moaning about an exploit then still using it and complaining the game is too easy. Challenge yourself to find other ways to win.

Try to win using a philosophy or formation you do not usually use - it can be fun.

[jcafcwbb]

A second thought has occurred to me.

If you used the preset Gengenpress tactic with no tweaks would that be as over-powered?

I would wager it is impossible for the SI team for programme for all human players micro-management but maybe they can programme for the preset ones?

[crusadertsar]

51 minutes ago, jcafcwbb said:

A second thought has occurred to me.

If you used the preset Gengenpress tactic with no tweaks would that be as over-powered?

I would wager it is impossible for the SI team for programme for all human players micro-management but maybe they can programme for the preset ones?

Yes that's still overpowered. There were threads on here in the past of players overachieving with preset geggenpress only. It's that overpowered.

Edited December 23, 2023 by crusadertsar

[avenger22]

On 21/12/2023 at 22:47, Maddux said:

EVERY major and many smaller content creators publish their tactics on FMScout. It's probably THE site for downloading tactics and you can find every "meta" tactics there that was uploaded to youtube. The people that publish tactics on FMScout basicly created the "meta". And now you're telling me that you can rarely find any "meta" tactics there?

These TIs are just "meta" because they have fewer or less severe negative effects and [insert random big content creator] was successful with it. And now everyone joins the hype train and is telling all kind of excuses whenever their "lot of success treble winning with Burnley meta Gegenpress"-tactics isn't working at all. Most of my own creations use very few TIs with a mid block because i personally prefer the midfield pressing. No "meta" TIs, highly customizable depending on your squad and your opponent but still very successful.

And at this point i wonder if you even know what the term "meta" means and/or when to use it correctly. Talking about the "meta" in FM is like talking about your "meta" when playing Magic: the Gathering with your friends at the kitchen table. There just isn't one.

You are wrong, but hey you think you are right what can i say, comparing FmScout with Fm-arena for tactics is like comparing Premier league with league two in terms of teams ...

Edited December 24, 2023 by avenger22

[avenger22]

On 21/12/2023 at 22:47, Maddux said:

EVERY major and many smaller content creators publish their tactics on FMScout. It's probably THE site for downloading tactics and you can find every "meta" tactics there that was uploaded to youtube. The people that publish tactics on FMScout basicly created the "meta". And now you're telling me that you can rarely find any "meta" tactics there?

These TIs are just "meta" because they have fewer or less severe negative effects and [insert random big content creator] was successful with it. And now everyone joins the hype train and is telling all kind of excuses whenever their "lot of success treble winning with Burnley meta Gegenpress"-tactics isn't working at all. Most of my own creations use very few TIs with a mid block because i personally prefer the midfield pressing. No "meta" TIs, highly customizable depending on your squad and your opponent but still very successful.

And at this point i wonder if you even know what the term "meta" means and/or when to use it correctly. Talking about the "meta" in FM is like talking about your "meta" when playing Magic: the Gathering with your friends at the kitchen table. There just isn't one.

Also try looking into fm-arena and see what meta is i mean you probably have zero idea what i am talking about and think meta is in FMScout which no absolutely no, there are maybe 2-3 tactic publisher that post also there but majority are not, many tactics tested from FmScout into fm-arena didn't do well, there was only one post here in another thread who got it in terms of TI meta stuff which is a mix between gegenpressing and vertical Tiki taka.

Edited December 24, 2023 by avenger22

[Maddux]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb avenger22:

Also try looking into fm-arena and see what meta is i mean you probably have zero idea what i am talking about and think meta is in FMScout which no absolutely no, there are maybe 2-3 tactic publisher that post also there but majority are not, many tactics tested from FmScout into fm-arena didn't do well, there was only one post here in another thread who got it in terms of TI meta stuff which is a mix between gegenpressing and vertical Tiki taka.

You better learn what "meta" means first.

I don't give a F about results from a site that uses simulations to find out which tactics perform best because it favors exploit tactics and you don't need any knowledge about tactics to be successful with this exploit crap.

I don't blame people for using exploits because FM is a singleplayer game and everyone can play however he/she wants. But claiming that there is a "meta" that you need to play and non-"meta" tactics can't be equaly as good or even better is either a lie or just shows that you have a huge lack of knowledge. People have proven countless times over the past years that other approaches are viable and equally successful. If you actually know what you're doing and i doubt that you know much about tactics.

[avenger22]

11 minutes ago, Maddux said:

You better learn what "meta" means first.

I don't give a F about results from a site that uses simulations to find out which tactics perform best because it favors exploit tactics and you don't need any knowledge about tactics to be successful with this exploit crap.

I don't blame people for using exploits because FM is a singleplayer game and everyone can play however he/she wants. But claiming that there is a "meta" that you need to play and non-"meta" tactics can't be equaly as good or even better is either a lie or just shows that you have a huge lack of knowledge. People have proven countless times over the past years that other approaches are viable and equally successful. If you actually know what you're doing and i doubt that you know much about tactics.

My friend i cannot discuss with you, you are completely off the label like i mean is absolutely nonsense, there is a META not in FM but in EVERY GAME THAT HAS EVERY EXISTED, meta is not just EXPLOIT, it is the best way to PLAY against AI that is (then you can call it as you want, but with your logic then you shouldn't maximise but dumbplay and ignore with this logic Guardiola would been relegated), this type of cross, this tempo, this pressing and others, ofc you can win with a low intensity tactic in FM because AI tactics are very bad and get 20-30 points rated in fm-arena so basically anyone can win against AI, try with pre-game editor and pump AI managers high line, high press, high tempo and see how hard the game gets i have tried it which is why the game is easy it is not an exploit is how football works high tempo high press is much better than low tempo a big difference also not just small.

Edited December 24, 2023 by avenger22

[avenger22]

Ofc the game can be played in many ways, but to deny meta is like completely braindead, you can test yourself play against an AI which has close to meta stuff and you will see very difficult to win and FM becomes very challenging because the AI is using stuff which is better they are pressing, hard tackling, playing in high tempo and then players come in stage cause things have levelled, not WING play which is super weak cannot win at all.

[NineCloudNine]

All games have a 'meta', without exception. It just means a particular combination of skills, builds, tactics or approaches which will tend to be more successful than others when deployed by players with equal skill.

Every year's FM has a particular quirk - long shots, set pieces, certain roles - which are more powerful than in other years. That's the meta. High lines and intense pressing have been strong for several years (largely because the game implements them without the real life consequences such as injuries and player exhaustion).

The 'with equal skill' caveat is very important though. The 'meta' advantage isn't always large and in a single-player game it's largely irrelevant. It matters more in PvP games where a small advantage is significant. And even there it can be overcome with skillful play, which is why we see plenty of FM players able to succeed without using flavour of the month roles or tactical approaches. That doesn't mean there's no meta, it just means that good players are able to overcome it.

[lied90]

14 hours ago, Maddux said:

You better learn what "meta" means first.

I don't give a F about results from a site that uses simulations to find out which tactics perform best because it favors exploit tactics and you don't need any knowledge about tactics to be successful with this exploit crap.

The meta is finding the optimal way to win and gain an advantage, and it evolves as players find new ways to do just that. FMArena is to my knowledge the only where people collaborate about this. Every time someones tries something new and gets a good result (changing lines, roles, PIs, TIs, etc) others jump on and tried other alterations. Seeing if it works in different formations etc. It also tests meta of skill distribution. When a new patch comes out the most popular ones are tested again to see if anything changed, This is the definition of how the meta evolves by community innovation.

What exactly do you think an exploit is in a computer game?

 

[crusadertsar]

@avenger22 I actually feel sorry for people like you. Always trying to find the most "munchkin-efficient" way to beat AI in a single player game . It actually ruins the whole football simulation management aspect of the game. Anyway, it would for me. I don't even understand half of the stuff you rumble on about, low intensity tactics being "dumbplay", what? My "dumb" low-intensity, defensive, non-gegenpress tactic beat Man City 4-0 without any of the super efficient "meta" tricks. And I played as Real Sociedad in our 2nd season, not some superclub. But you don't really understand how to create good logical tactics, do you? You know tactics where you actually choose the roles and team instructions because of how they fit your squad or to counter a specific opposition formation. Or you know, just because you want your team to play in a specific way and not just use cookie-cutter high intensity geggenpress instructions with all teams. I feel sad for you because you miss out on the part of this sport simulation where you actually embrace the football manager role and get immersed in the game and make decisions that a real manager would. Creating a tactic to bring out the strengths of his players or because he follows a specific style of football. Example, Jose Mourinho sticking to his pragmatic, defense-first approach to football. In real football you don't see everyone jumping on Guardiola bandwagon because not every team is built like Man City. And other managers have their own tactical objectives they want to follow. 

Edited December 25, 2023 by crusadertsar

[dzek]

It would be good to accept each other's way of playing the game and when we can help someone with something they are facing, we should do so generously. There is certainly no one way to play the game and everyone chooses to be entertained differently.

It's just that for years I've had a question and I still haven't been able to solve it. Let's say there are some users who play the game "realistically" and others who take it to the extreme (with strong tactics that ME likes - meta/exploit/whatever) ok? Why is it that those who play the game that take it to the extreme are more open to helping another or new players join the game while the users who play it "realistically" are sometimes insulting and not cooperative at all?

I'm not talking about anyone in particular from this conversation, nor do I want to expose anyone. It's a question I've had for years and with this conversation I thought I'd ask.

[crusadertsar]

1 hour ago, dzek said:

It would be good to accept each other's way of playing the game and when we can help someone with something they are facing, we should do so generously. There is certainly no one way to play the game and everyone chooses to be entertained differently.

It's just that for years I've had a question and I still haven't been able to solve it. Let's say there are some users who play the game "realistically" and others who take it to the extreme (with strong tactics that ME likes - meta/exploit/whatever) ok? Why is it that those who play the game that take it to the extreme are more open to helping another or new players join the game while the users who play it "realistically" are sometimes insulting and not cooperative at all?

I'm not talking about anyone in particular from this conversation, nor do I want to expose anyone. It's a question I've had for years and with this conversation I thought I'd ask.

Don't know what you are talking about. There are plenty of examples of users who play game "realistically",as you say, helping many newcomers with invaluable tactical advice threads that they posted on here for years. Personally, learned to play FM by getting advise from these users on here. I also don't want to throw names around but common, don't tell me that you never got any help from @Rashidi @Cleon @herne79 or @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! among many others.

Edited December 25, 2023 by crusadertsar

[avenger22]

5 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

@avenger22 I actually feel sorry for people like you. Always trying to find the most "munchkin-efficient" way to beat AI in a single player game . It actually ruins the whole football simulation management aspect of the game. Anyway, it would for me. I don't even understand half of the stuff you rumble on about, low intensity tactics being "dumbplay", what? My "dumb" low-intensity, defensive, non-gegenpress tactic beat Man City 4-0 without any of the super efficient "meta" tricks. And I played as Real Sociedad in our 2nd season, not some superclub. But you don't really understand how to create good logical tactics, do you? You know tactics where you actually choose the roles and team instructions because of how they fit your squad or to counter a specific opposition formation. Or you know, just because you want your team to play in a specific way and not just use cookie-cutter high intensity geggenpress instructions with all teams. I feel sad for you because you miss out on the part of this sport simulation where you actually embrace the football manager role and get immersed in the game and make decisions that a real manager would. Creating a tactic to bring out the strengths of his players or because he follows a specific style of football. Example, Jose Mourinho sticking to his pragmatic, defense-first approach to football. In real football you don't see everyone jumping on Guardiola bandwagon because not every team is built like Man City. And other managers have their own tactical objectives they want to follow. 

The amount of idiocy you have written is ..., i enjoy the game to max the best tactic i can put not to dumbplay and be "realistic" while the team is getting overrun even by AI who plays another braindead tactic and i have to blame the players or the tactic when i lose i want to lose putting my best stuff then is satisfying to lose that is how i play, but as it was said above everyone plays as he wants i have no problem against just i reacted because here many seem either very ignorant or play dumb regarding many stuff that it is, then the game is for everyone but to call me "Do you know how to create logical tactics ? ".
I have years and years who watch football mostly for tactical part also because i grew with it also played FM since FM12 and i can say that i am not the best but i do understand about tactics because football is pretty simple game.

Edited December 25, 2023 by avenger22