My first and last FM23 rant

[Ghost77]

Hi model citizens,

before I move to the new edition of FM I just wanted to share my feelings regarding my last save in FM23. This post isn't made to imply, that the game is bad, scripted against the user and that we shouldn't play it etc. I just wanted to know if you maybe feel the same way or find anything what I talk about familiar. Or of course, you can disagree.

In the save I am managing Heart of Midlothian in Scottish Premiership with obvious goals to win the league and put down Celtic and Rangers. As I invested a lot of time in my preparations I really tuned the tactics (defensively very solid but productive 4-1-2-2-1), planned good set-pieces depending on curled crosses addressed to tall centrebacks with brilliant heading which were brought to the club (productive set-pieces were the boards wish) and the squad itself, because Hearts are playing at least Europa/Conference league in the first season I had to bring in some real quality depth.

I started very well, rotated well for the European matches and made plenty of goals from set-pieces. In the end I found myself in the title fight with Celtic with last three matches of the season remaining. In Scottish competitions I only lost twice. Away to Rangers in the Premiership (damn you, Ryan Kent) and in the Scottish cup semifinal to Hibs (0:1 from penalty in 87' minute).

Before the last three matches (Celtic, Ross County and Dundee Utd.) my team was fully familiar with the tactic, got superb morale throughout the whole season and for some reason loved me as a manager. I only conceded 11 goals in 35 matches which made my defence the best in the division, but yet had the 2nd best attack. My first choice goalkeeper Lawrence Vigouroux got 22 clean sheets which equalised Fraser Forster division record. And i've got 100% H2H record against Celtic which never scored against me in previous 3 league matches and 1 cup match.

I really fought hard against any sign of complanency and bad fitness by team-talks and above mentioned rotation which was well received by all the players. My players (thanks to team depth) always started fresh and mainly fully motivated.

Then the Celtic match came. 

To be honest, I felt I can lose this one, maybe snatch a draw. It's still Celtic at its own stadium with brilliant team and Ante Postecoglu still on the bench.

I lost 1:8.

The match itself was absolutely out of hand. They were tearing us apart from the scratch and my players were standing at the pitch like immovable objects from the first to the last minute. They looked like they can't move, they don't want to play, just waiting for the death (after I beat them in previous four matches). The best goalkeeper in the division Lawrence Vigouroux did absolutely nothing at the goal. Almost every shot ended in his net. 

I don't want to sound like sour beaten manager who can't lose. It honestly isn't true. But somehow I felt betrayed by the sudden change in context of the game. In everything that was built well and followed logical paterns until this match. I did not know whether I should continue.

But as I saw the morale stayed pretty high, players accepted my criticism and we still got the solid tested tactics, productive set-pieces and generally brilliant season with just two loses to Rangers and Celtic, I went to the next match.

At Ross County, club which was at the top-half by accident this season, I was losing 0:3 by the half-time. Which was also the final score. My players were almost as bad as against Celtic. No idea why. No complanency, morale up top, no real reason to stop performing at least at standard level. Draw would do. 1:2 loss would too.

So to sum it up. In last two matches I conceded the same ammount of goals asi in the whole season before. My keeper's form suddently went away, my whole team form and concpetion went away. Defensively very well balanced tactics meant nothing anymore. And had not the power to go back to the save until now. Lost focus, lost the interest.

Why? 

I would like to say again that the fact that I lost the games is not that important to me and as I said above I half-expected to lose at Celtic. But the way I lost with 8 goals conceded (4 from really average Spaniard who attribute wise wasn't anywhere near Celtic level) was to hard to take. I don't want to use the word unrealistic as it is too harsh and overused in my eyes. I would prefer to use the word "gamey" or "too random". Like it is kind of further away from realism that I would personally like, but not like "cheating" or "absolutely unrealistic". In any case it really stole my interest for this save as I feel it's not worth the time and the work invested if you know where I am comming from. 

I don't say freakish results do not happen IRL, but I don't think it happens in similar context. A result and performance like this out of sudden after season that was almost perfect, with so strong and motivated squad.

If I lost 1:4, ok a bad day, I could take it. But this just felt wrong and I felt it was decided from the first minute no matter what I do.

So that's it. Feel free to add any comment. Any experience you have and what do you think about my super whining post.

Cheers




 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Ghost77

[Dagenham_Dave]

What do you want people to say here? You came up against a better team and got utterly spanked. Then you lost your next game. 

I don't mean to be rude, but so what? You just try to keep your players morale up as much as you can then you move on. Sounds like you have a decent team, so should be challenging again next season. 

In this year's game, I was managing Stirling Albion. After a few seasons, I got them to the Prem/Champ playoff final where we were up against Partick Thistle. Due to a mixture of good luck and lucky draws, I'd also managed to reach the Scottish Cup final vs Celtic (Beat Rangers away in the quarters in a wild game)

Lost the first leg of the playoff final 2-1, disappointing but still in it. 2nd leg was after the cup final. Played the cup final, 4-0 down after 12 minutes, and eventually lost 6-0 as Celtic basically stopped trying after that. Then went on to get thrashed 5-0 by Thistle in the next game. 11-0 against over two games when I'd barely conceded a goal in the last few weeks of the season. 

Just dusted down, got on with strengthening the squad for the following season, and went up via the playoffs. 

At no point did I think to rant about it on the internet, trying to imply the game was fixed or against me. 

Each to their own though. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Dagenham_Dave

[Ghost77]

Thanks for the reply. I never said the game was fixed against me. Quite the opposite.

I just wanted to know if other players feel the same way. That these results sometimes seem too random. And it just doesn't make sense that the performance drops from 100 to 0 in just one match in almost invincible season. 

If I lost by 7 goals, but my players at least played or tried, there were some patterns of usual play or some kind of performance existed, maybe it would be different. But it was like different players, different tactics, everything from previous matches just dissappeared. That just doesn't make much football sense to me.

 I actually am a coach myself and have never expereienced something like this in my coaching career IRL. There was always something wrong when these results suddenly happened. Some explanation, some clear hints. Here, there was nothing. Moral was superb even after the spanking.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Ghost77

[SaintEtienne]

One of the most astonishing matches I have ever watched: the 2014 World Cup semi final between Brazil and Germany.

Brazil: host nation, crowd behind them, momentum, positivity. But the occasion got to them. Their decision making and composure fell apart once they went behind, and had the Germans not decided at half-time to ease off in the second half, it would have been worse than 7-1.

A few days later, Brazil then got absolutely hammered 3-0 by the Netherlands in the 3rd/4th place play off.

It doesn't happen often, but sometimes things can fall apart very quickly even for a good side in good form. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

10 minutes ago, Ghost77 said:

 But it was like different players, different tactics, everything from previous matches just dissappeared. That just doesn't make much football sense to me.

 

In real life, Stirling visited Hamilton recently and lost 5-0. Nothing the players had been playing like before happened, it was as if the players had only met each other that day and Hamilton could have had double figures. They even missed a penalty. Whereas a couple of weeks before this, we won 1-0 at QOS (another full time team) where the players battled hard and looked as though they wanted to win it. 

There's countless other examples. Manchester United beating Arsenal 8-2, the various 9-0 results that pop up in the EPL from time to time. It's football. Sometimes you're unlucky enough to have a real off day at the same time as the opposition plays a blinder. Yes, its frustrating, yes it's annoying. But it's part of football. Just move on. 

[Ghost77]

5 hours ago, SaintEtienne said:

One of the most astonishing matches I have ever watched: the 2014 World Cup semi final between Brazil and Germany.

Brazil: host nation, crowd behind them, momentum, positivity. But the occasion got to them. Their decision making and composure fell apart once they went behind, and had the Germans not decided at half-time to ease off in the second half, it would have been worse than 7-1.

A few days later, Brazil then got absolutely hammered 3-0 by the Netherlands in the 3rd/4th place play off.

It doesn't happen often, but sometimes things can fall apart very quickly even for a good side in good form. 

Well, there were absolutely clear defensive shortcomings in German defence in that match which were immediately taken into advantage by Brazilians. If you watch the goals there is a clear pattern and Germans just couldn't find it at first. It was not as surprising from a tactical point of view.

The next match against Netherlands was the bronze match in which Brazilians absolutely didn't want to play. As they personally said. It was just a formality for them and that's why they lost 0:3. It was embarassing for them to play for the 3rd place.

If I had similar defensive shortcomings in my tactic, I would gladly accept it and work on them. But the Celtic goals in my trashing were very random and funny enough from the most average players in their team. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Ghost77

[Ghost77]

1 minute ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

In real life, Stirling visited Hamilton recently and lost 5-0. Nothing the players had been playing like before happened, it was as if the players had only met each other that day and Hamilton could have had double figures. They even missed a penalty. Whereas a couple of weeks before this, we won 1-0 at QOS (another full time team) where the players battled hard and looked as though they wanted to win it. 

There's countless other examples. Manchester United beating Arsenal 8-2, the various 9-0 results that pop up in the EPL from time to time. It's football. Sometimes you're unlucky enough to have a real off day at the same time as the opposition plays a blinder. Yes, its frustrating, yes it's annoying. But it's part of football. Just move on. 

I see your point. But Arsenal did not lose to Man Utd in their invincible season. As far as I remember the 8:2 trashing came in quite inconsisent times, didn't it? That's where I am getting at. If it was average season for my Hearts team, I would accept it without any hesitance. But that for me just felt gamey. Thanks for the input, though.

[Dagenham_Dave]

Quick question before we wrap this up. You said in your original post that Hearts had beaten Celtic four times that season before the 8-1 game. Did you feel at any point about venting about how 'gamey' it was when you were beating a better team time after time? Bear in mind this was your first season, it's not as if you'd built Hearts up over a number of seasons. 

Because I would argue that beating Celtic 4 times in one season in the first season in-game with Hearts is far more unrealistic than them beating you 8-1 in one game. 

[Ghost77]

Just now, Dagenham_Dave said:

Quick question before we wrap this up. You said in your original post that Hearts had beaten Celtic four times that season before the 8-1 game. Did you feel at any point about venting about how 'gamey' it was when you were beating a better team time after time? Bear in mind this was your first season, it's not as if you'd built Hearts up over a number of seasons. 

Because I would argue that beating Celtic 4 times in one season in the first season in-game with Hearts is far more unrealistic than them beating you 8-1 in one game. 

Well, it honestly did not, because I have won 1:0, 1:0, 2:0 and 1:0 in the cup. These were very even matches with chances on both sides and in at least two occassions I won thanks to my really well prepared set-pieces. Just to add info: I brought in three centre backs above 190 cm and with heading and jumping reach at least 15. Robert Snodgrass, my deeplying playmaker, has curling corners at 15 too and that gave me slight advantage in these even matches which would otherwise maybe finish as draws. I really put a lot of work and time into this as my board wished.

If the scenario was that I won all of them, but Celtic was better team in all of them, I would say it was gamey. Yes.

[Dagenham_Dave]

44 minutes ago, Ghost77 said:

Well, it honestly did not, because I have won 1:0, 1:0, 2:0 and 1:0 in the cup. 

So not only did you beat Celtic four times in the first season, you kept a clean sheet in all four games. Something that's never happened in real life (at least not in my lifetime, and I'm in my 50s)

Yet you rant because you got smashed by them once. Right you are then. 

[SaintEtienne]

One of the great things about football, and something that FM captures really well, is that it has far more surprising, and sometimes downright freakish, results than most other sports. And that’s all your 8-1 defeat is.

Be thankful you have a great story. In your universe, that match will spoken about for years to come (particularly by Hibs and Celtic fans).

Finally, use the frustration positively. Back on FM21, I was Cliftonville manager and went into a final day title decider away at Linfield. Win the game, and we were league champions; any other result, and Linfield were champions. Tough match and I wasn’t hugely optimistic. But we led 2-0 after 60 minutes. Then one of my CMs got sent off, we conceded, tried to cling on, but let in the equaliser in the 85th minute. And that’s how it finished: 2-2. I was gutted, and sure a little part of me raged at the game, thinking it was rigged against me.

But, after half an hour of staring dead-eyed at my screen, I just resolved that I never wanted this to happen again, and that I was going to use the summer transfer window to smash Linfield next season. I went on to claim back-to-back league titles and turn Cliftonville into the most dominant side in Northern Ireland. And that single 2-2 result against Linfield, which was so frustrating and annoying at the time, now sits in my memory as the single most memorable match from that save (just ahead of a 0-0 draw at home to Inter Milan to claim my single point across 12 CL group stage matches).

[Ghost77]

3 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

So not only did you beat Celtic four times in the first season, you kept a clean sheet in all four games. Something that's never happened in real life (at least not in my lifetime, and I'm in my 50s)

Yet you rant because you got smashed by them once. Right you are then. 

To win in four even matches with the slightest margain mainly thanks to set-pieces when you are just a slight outsider and have significantly improved your team isn't that surprising. (Maybe the squad building part is too easy and gamey for users, I took a huge advantage of that, because I have spent every penny on players I wanted to bring specifically for my tactics. AI is not so good at that. And real life Hearts of course didn't improve their squad like that too.)

But to get smashed by the opposition like that with no change in their tactics and squad after I haven't been beaten by anybody except Rangers (by one goal) is gamey in my eyes. As I said, I don't mind losing, I didn't like the "over the top" way it came.

Maybe if you saw my team and all the mentioned matches, you would be more understanding of my view. But I appreciate your opinion and thanks for it.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Ghost77

[Ghost77]

2 hours ago, SaintEtienne said:

One of the great things about football, and something that FM captures really well, is that it has far more surprising, and sometimes downright freakish, results than most other sports. And that’s all your 8-1 defeat is.

Be thankful you have a great story. In your universe, that match will spoken about for years to come (particularly by Hibs and Celtic fans).

Finally, use the frustration positively. Back on FM21, I was Cliftonville manager and went into a final day title decider away at Linfield. Win the game, and we were league champions; any other result, and Linfield were champions. Tough match and I wasn’t hugely optimistic. But we led 2-0 after 60 minutes. Then one of my CMs got sent off, we conceded, tried to cling on, but let in the equaliser in the 85th minute. And that’s how it finished: 2-2. I was gutted, and sure a little part of me raged at the game, thinking it was rigged against me.

But, after half an hour of staring dead-eyed at my screen, I just resolved that I never wanted this to happen again, and that I was going to use the summer transfer window to smash Linfield next season. I went on to claim back-to-back league titles and turn Cliftonville into the most dominant side in Northern Ireland. And that single 2-2 result against Linfield, which was so frustrating and annoying at the time, now sits in my memory as the single most memorable match from that save (just ahead of a 0-0 draw at home to Inter Milan to claim my single point across 12 CL group stage matches).

I appreciate your reply and of course understand where are you comming from. I am very pragmatic and the tactical side of things is maybe the most important for me as the game got so complex in years. So when I execute some really elaborate tactical plan supported by the right transfers and it works longterm in the game it's hard for me to understand why the game suddenly ignores all the factors that worked almost flawlessly and throw it all to bin at one moment. 

As I said I wouldn't mind losing by two or three goals and see some terrible mistakes by my players or holes in my system. Injuries, bad morale, players nervous etc. But there was nothing like that, no hints, no factors leading to it. My players just suddenly didn't play at all. They were like chess figures. Like if someone changed their attributes and tactical familiarity from 100 to 0 just for this match and on. I welcome the challenge of hard opponents in the games, I learn from it. But Celtic didn't change anything tactically or personally in the line-up in comparsion with the previous h2h matches.  So why the sudden huge difference? As I watch the real football these freakish results are always predictable in my eyes. There are so many factors going into the mix and you can always find something that went wrong. Tactical or other. But I didn't in my save. Maybe I just want too much from a PC game and the problem is in my head 

I don't think the game is rigged or fixing against the user. That's proven wrong and it doesn't my sense on SI behalf. I am more like thinking that the game in its mechanisms just evaluated that there will be a huge possibility of freakish or unpredictable result (no matter who is playing against who), because otherwise I see nothing that should bring so sudden change in all the factors.

English is not my native language, so I hope it makes at least some sense 

 

[Dagenham_Dave]

34 minutes ago, Ghost77 said:

As I said I wouldn't mind losing by two or three goals and see some terrible mistakes by my players or holes in my system

I'm sure the Southampton manager had the same outlook after they lost 9-0 to Manchester United in 2021

Freak results happen. You've been the victim of one. That's all that has happened here. 

[Ghost77]

1 minute ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

I'm sure the Southampton manager had the same outlook after they lost 9-0 to Manchester United in 2021

Freak results happen. You've been the victim of one. That's all that has happened here. 

Yes, they happen. But as I wrote above in real life almost all of the freak results can be predicted. I usually watch about 250-300 football matches a year and there are always tactical shortcomings or other complex factors leading to this type of results. In other words they do not happen without a reason. That's my whole point.

[Dagenham_Dave]

Just now, Ghost77 said:

Yes, they happen. But as I wrote above in real life almost all of the freak results can be predicted.

If it can be predicted, then by its very nature, it's not a freak result! 

 

1 minute ago, Ghost77 said:

In other words they do not happen without a reason

Are you trying to claim you are completely infallible as a manager? Quite a bold stance to take, if so. 

[SaintEtienne]

36 minutes ago, Ghost77 said:

I appreciate your reply and of course understand where are you comming from. I am very pragmatic and the tactical side of things is maybe the most important for me as the game got so complex in years. So when I execute some really elaborate tactical plan supported by the right transfers and it works longterm in the game it's hard for me to understand why the game suddenly ignores all the factors that worked almost flawlessly and throw it all to bin at one moment. 

As I said I wouldn't mind losing by two or three goals and see some terrible mistakes by my players or holes in my system. Injuries, bad morale, players nervous etc. But there was nothing like that, no hints, no factors leading to it. My players just suddenly didn't play at all. They were like chess figures. Like if someone changed their attributes and tactical familiarity from 100 to 0 just for this match and on. I welcome the challenge of hard opponents in the games, I learn from it. But Celtic didn't change anything tactically or personally in the line-up in comparsion with the previous h2h matches.  So why the sudden huge difference? As I watch the real football these freakish results are always predictable in my eyes. There are so many factors going into the mix and you can always find something that went wrong. Tactical or other. But I didn't in my save. Maybe I just want too much from a PC game and the problem is in my head 

I don't think the game is rigged or fixing against the user. That's proven wrong and it doesn't my sense on SI behalf. I am more like thinking that the game in its mechanisms just evaluated that there will be a huge possibility of freakish or unpredictable result (no matter who is playing against who), because otherwise I see nothing that should bring so sudden change in all the factors.

English is not my native language, so I hope it makes at least some sense 

 

I also spend a lot of time on the tactical side of the game, trying to get my tactical plans and in-game decisions right. But tactics, while important, are only one factor in determining the outcome of a match. Mentality is a big part. So too is luck.

In your match, you're away to Celtic, which is a tough match in any circumstances. It's an important game in a title race. It's entirely plausible that Celtic were just really up for it, had the crowd behind them, and your players couldn't cope mentally. Maybe Celtic had better 'big match' players. Plus, throw in the possibility that it was match in which almost every bit of luck went the way of Celtic, and you faced a perfect storm. Your players, individually and collectively, quickly got mentally frazzled and never recovered.

[Ghost77]

1 minute ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

If it can be predicted, then by its very nature, it's not a freak result! 

 

Are you trying to claim you are completely infallible as a manager? Quite a bold stance to take, if so. 

They can be predicted or expected, but that doesn't mean they will definitely happen. There is just a good chance they will.

And no, I am not infallible as a manager. But in this case the game just haven't provided anything to predict or expect freakish result as it usually does. Or matches in real life do. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

Just now, Ghost77 said:

But in this case the game just haven't provided anything to predict or expect freakish result as it usually does

What are you expecting the game to do? Tell you the day before the game you're going to get spanked 8-1, so you better adjust your tactical set up? 

Take Liverpool's 7-0 win over Manchester United a season or two back. In what way was this result 'predicted or expected'? I'm genuinely curious how you think a freak result can be 'predicted'. Unless you are some sort of psychic. And if so, can you help with my betting accumulator for the weekend please? 

[Ghost77]

5 minutes ago, SaintEtienne said:

I also spend a lot of time on the tactical side of the game, trying to get my tactical plans and in-game decisions right. But tactics, while important, are only one factor in determining the outcome of a match. Mentality is a big part. So too is luck.

In your match, you're away to Celtic, which is a tough match in any circumstances. It's an important game in a title race. It's entirely plausible that Celtic were just really up for it, had the crowd behind them, and your players couldn't cope mentally. Maybe Celtic had better 'big match' players. Plus, throw in the possibility that it was match in which almost every bit of luck went the way of Celtic, and you faced a perfect storm. Your players, individually and collectively, quickly got mentally frazzled and never recovered.

Yes, of course I've taken all this into account when thinking about it. But I have built my squad around that idea and I would say they are almost all mentally stable big match players. Haven't found any weakness there. And the game haven't provided any info, that my players are nervous or afraid. And on top of that, they already went through this match at Celtic park two times and did well. So I wouldn't expect them to crumble so hard just because it was important match (but not decisive) in title fight which was not expected by anyone anyway. They were all strongly motivated, we even had team meeting before.

I like the perfect storm idea, though  That might be the possibility.

[Ghost77]

12 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

What are you expecting the game to do? Tell you the day before the game you're going to get spanked 8-1, so you better adjust your tactical set up? 

Take Liverpool's 7-0 win over Manchester United a season or two back. In what way was this result 'predicted or expected'? I'm genuinely curious how you think a freak result can be 'predicted'. Unless you are some sort of psychic. And if so, can you help with my betting accumulator for the weekend please? 

Sorry, but there is no need for sarcasm. Of course, I am not expecting that. I am expecting usual hints that my players are nervous or not feeling well. Not feeling physicaly strong against the specific opposition as the normally do. There was nothing like that.

When I said predicted I meant it more like in the way that there are many tangible or untangible factors leading in to it. And when you see the first minutes of the match you can spot tactical or mental shortcomings. Or you can find some new info after the match. That the players had a fight in the locker room, hate each other and if you knew before, you could predict that this match will end badly. I am not a native speaker so some of my expressions are probably not exact, but please, try to understand me without sarcasm.

Maybe expect is a better word.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Ghost77

[Dagenham_Dave]

2 minutes ago, Ghost77 said:

I am expecting usual hints that my players are nervous or not feeling well. Not feeling physicaly strong against the specific opposition as the normally do. There was nothing like that.
 

But that doesn't have to be the case!! The team could go out onto the field feeling extremely confident and still end up getting hammered by the opposition. Goals change games. @SaintEtienne explained it well in the post above. You were away to a better team, and they all clicked on the day. Once they got the first couple of goals, the tails are up, and your players begin to struggle badly. Shots that might normally have been saved are going in, and it ends up 8-1. 

Too many people when playing FM only concentrate on their own team. There's another team out there with their own manager and players and personalities and morale. 

Let it go, you were well beaten. If you try to continually over-analyze it, you'll just go mad. 

[Ghost77]

8 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

But that doesn't have to be the case!!

In my experience real life footbal is always like that. Before the match, in the match or after match if you dig deep enough you can always see what is/was leading to the freakish result. But it's maybe my mistake that I comprehend football in my own way and expect a PC game to be like that too.

Of course, I accept the points of both of you, guys. I didn't want to sound like someone who can't accept losing. That is not true. I am playing this game for more than 23 years now and believe me, I lost so many matches. Even by score this high. But this for the first time seemed different.
 

8 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Let it go, you were well beaten. If you try to continually over-analyze it, you'll just go mad. 

Yes, that's true. It's my nature to over-analyze things on the verge of madness  But in many ways it helped me to get better.