Difficulty

[Ngoc]

2 hours ago, anagain said:

Don't question my open-mindedness because I don't think introducing a ruleset that people already follow is a good use of developer time.

Some might question your open-mindedness that you refuse to accept that people are capable of imposing rules upon themselves.

Why not you are not even open mind to let people judge you they can just me as much as the want I still believe you are close minded and I don’t care one bit what other thinks 

[endlessxcircle]

12 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

The Youtuber LoadFM does a 'Head Coach' series every year, where he plays the game exactly in the manner you've mentioned above. He only has control over the players themselves, be it interactions, training, team selection etc, everything else is left to his staff. So it's very much possible without SI spending time and resources to arbitrarily set such a mode in the game. 

As I acknowledged in my original comment, I'm aware it's already somewhat possible through delegation and such. That said, there's still elements that could be adjusted or implemented within a proper mode. Not only that, but it's one of those things where if it's not in front of you, it can be missed. A dedicated full-blown manager mode that gets presented to players may actually see more people take it on. 

Doesn't even need to be a seperate mode really, it could simply be a few toggles in the game setup that basically "grey out" all the non-managerial tasks and controls when turned on. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

12 hours ago, endlessxcircle said:

Doesn't even need to be a seperate mode really, it could simply be a few toggles in the game setup that basically "grey out" all the non-managerial tasks and controls when turned on. 

So, basically the staff responsibilities screen then. 

[Andy1979]

Start as a sunday league footballer with no badges makes it harder to start with. Try joining a online clan and you will soon realise the game is alot harder than you thought. We have 12 human managers in our euc clan. Started L2 no badges and sunday league footballer rep. Takes ages to earn respect off you players.

[rristola]

7 minutes ago, Andy1979 said:

Start as a sunday league footballer with no badges makes it harder to start with.

That is just my kind of playing style.

Only thing is, that SI should make some decisions on these managers with no badges - can they really be managers even in VNL North/South, or in that same level in other leagues...

Should SI divide FM into two parts - leagues with complete staffs and squads, and then ONLY the league structures (with fake players) for the rest. BTW, this way FA Cup  could be complete.

 

Also, FM isn't, IMO, that good with lower leagues. I have suggested things like possibility to get some money with fairs aso. just, because 1 000 pounds (or euros) is a lot of money there.

One interesting point is, that when a lower leagues team has zero pounds in transfer budget, zero in wage budget, it has maybe 10 000 pounds in scouting budget... Really...?

These money making chances still would take time away from training, increase fatigue, aso, so there's also the negative aspect.

This way SI could also get rid of 'greyed' players. It should be clearly pointed out, that some leagues can be played with real players, and choosing more leagues there will also be fake ones. But, please, NO greyed players!

There are also other issues like getting good players to sign too easily (into a lower leagues team), but FM is focused on the main leagues.

 

Would this increase difficulty? Well, as Andy1979 just commented, building your reputation when starting your career takes time. With fake players in lower leagues nobody could make use of premade player lists or use players you already know.

[Dagenham_Dave]

You can already start the game with fake players, and if you tick 'add players to playable teams' at the start, this also gets rid of all the greyed out players. Well, most of them anyway. 

[rristola]

17 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

You can already start the game with fake players

Yes, I got that. But I think that most of players would like to use real players, if possible. It's nice to give orders to Haaland aso.

On the other hand, I just realized that leaving lower leagues out could be a licencing thing, too.

[Matej]

Please, we are talking about this for 20+ years. For lots of players FM is 2 easy and its not fair that SI dont even want to talk about the problem. There are solutions and why all community cant be happy? I dont care if someone who is playin for lets say just 2 years can be first with lets say WBA in few seasons. But please put in the game additional options for experienced players. Let us suffer and let us finally  think again, how to beat the game, because we want that. 

Can we countinue this topic without:

- Start the game from bottom divison ( because we did, many times)

- Dont download super tactic and then talk its easy. Because i didnt download any super tactic, also thousands of other players didnt download great tactics, game is really easy with default tactics.

- Please if someone find this game hard, dont argue with us, we are talking about  additional options for experienced players, you dont have to turn that on, ever. 

 

[Matej]

On 01/12/2023 at 10:11, Andrew Marines said:

I've been playing online for 2 years now. Not playing offline anymore. 

Studying the opponent before and making the right adjustments make those tactics quite normal

Thats best thing to do, to play online. Problem is that for many of us is hard to play online. Im 40+ years old and have 2 children. Its hard for us to be free in the same time. 10 years ago i played online with my friends and had great times, also it was much more harder to beat other player(s), then AI, thats for sure. 

[Matej]

On 30/11/2023 at 16:53, rp1966 said:

For an 'easy game' in which a lot of players will gravitate towards the top level clubs the number of people with the 'won a domestic league' steam achievement seems pretty low at 38% ...

Thats big number. Really big number. There are lots of us who didnt finish single season because we where waiting for december patch. Also im waiting for daveincid mod, or some other mod that makes game harder. 

I dont wanna go in that direction, but they are sayin that game is SIMULATION. Its crazy that every other player won domestic league. Thats for me proof no1 how easy the game is.  

[Dagenham_Dave]

8 minutes ago, Matej said:

Please if someone find this game hard, dont argue with us, we are talking about  additional options for experienced players, you dont have to turn that on, ever. 

But this takes up resources and money to implement something in the game that you can effectively do yourself with a bit of willpower. 

But to play along, what 'additional options' would this be? Make AI opponents harder to beat in-game? Would require an entire recoding of the match engine to include that as an option. Can you begin to imagine the cost and effort this would entail? And for what? So that a few players don't win every week? 

What else can you make 'harder' that's not already possible to do in-game or with mods? I'm genuinely curious. 

And anyway, what does the game being 'more difficult' actually look like? It's a game where you win, you lose or you draw. If a tactic is good enough to beat another team on a given day, why would there be a switch which makes it less effective? That would be incredibly annoying for ANYONE playing the game. That doesn't make things more difficult, it just means you're going to win less games, with the only reason being you're on a different game mode. 

I'm hopeful SI never go down this route. I agree 100% with @SaintEtienne (and not for the first time), SI give you this big open world to play in, with mountains of user options to set things up to make it as easy or as hard as you want it to be. And because it's also highly moddable, there's further options if you feel that's not enough. 

 

[Dagenham_Dave]

9 minutes ago, Matej said:

Its crazy that every other player won domestic league. Thats for me proof no1 how easy the game is.  

You are aware that achievement isn't only for winning the top league in any given country, but it's for winning ANY domestic league? So it could be the Swedish 4th Division, or the Vanarama South, for example. 

[Matej]

19 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

You are aware that achievement isn't only for winning the top league in any given country, but it's for winning ANY domestic league? So it could be the Swedish 4th Division, or the Vanarama South, for example. 

Ofc I am. Again, even if you play Swedish 4th Division, that doesnt mean you automatically win that divison. You dont have money like AI dont have money.

[Dagenham_Dave]

6 minutes ago, Matej said:

Ofc I am. Again, even if you play Swedish 4th Division, that doesnt mean you automatically win that divison. You dont have money like AI dont have money.

Sighs

Because it's open to all leagues and not just the top ones, it's clearly going to be an easier achievement to get overall. The fact that 60% of users haven't managed to win ANY league yet, a month into the game's lifecycle (almost 2 if you include the beta) pretty much blows your argument right out the water I'm afraid. 

Swing and a miss. 

[Matej]

26 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

But this takes up resources and money to implement something in the game that you can effectively do yourself with a bit of willpower. 

But to play along, what 'additional options' would this be? Make AI opponents harder to beat in-game? Would require an entire recoding of the match engine to include that as an option. Can you begin to imagine the cost and effort this would entail? And for what? So that a few players don't win every week? 

What else can you make 'harder' that's not already possible to do in-game or with mods? I'm genuinely curious. 

And anyway, what does the game being 'more difficult' actually look like? It's a game where you win, you lose or you draw. If a tactic is good enough to beat another team on a given day, why would there be a switch which makes it less effective? That would be incredibly annoying for ANYONE playing the game. That doesn't make things more difficult, it just means you're going to win less games, with the only reason being you're on a different game mode. 

I'm hopeful SI never go down this route. I agree 100% with @SaintEtienne (and not for the first time), SI give you this big open world to play in, with mountains of user options to set things up to make it as easy or as hard as you want it to be. And because it's also highly moddable, there's further options if you feel that's not enough. 

 

Tone of your posts is not nice. For example : "So that a few players don't win every week? ". There are not just few of us who find the FM easy to beat. You can search the internet and find 1000s of posts on 1000s of sites sayin that FM is easy.

PaulC and Co wanted to make the game where everyone can be the manager and feel smart. I get it. They wanted to make the game where you can be the Hero, even if your like sucks or you have some problems. I get it. And that game brought big money to the company, i get it and im glad. 

But it would be really nice, for thousands of us, who followed their game and grow up with their game, to give us  additional options to make game harder and more realistic. 

 

[Dagenham_Dave]

1 minute ago, Matej said:

Tone of your posts is not nice. For example : "So that a few players don't win every week? ". There are not just few of us who find the FM easy to beat. You can search the internet and find 1000s of posts on 1000s of sites sayin that FM is easy.

PaulC and Co wanted to make the game where everyone can be the manager and feel smart. I get it. They wanted to make the game where you can be the Hero, even if your like sucks or you have some problems. I get it. And that game brought big money to the company, i get it and im glad. 

But it would be really nice, for thousands of us, who followed their game and grow up with their game, to give us  additional options to make game harder and more realistic. 

 

So, no actual answers then, just another incoherent ramble. Come on man, do better than this. Give me specifics of how difficulty levels would work in FM that wouldn't cost SI money and resources that let's face it, would be better spent elsewhere. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

5 minutes ago, Matej said:

There are not just few of us who find the FM easy to beat. You can search the internet and find 1000s of posts on 1000s of sites sayin that FM is easy.

To add to this, if you drew a venn diagram featuring those 'thousands' of people and 'exploiting the game', you'd almost have a perfect circle. 

[Matej]

1 minute ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

So, no actual answers then, just another incoherent ramble. Come on man, do better than this. Give me specifics of how difficulty levels would work in FM that wouldn't cost SI money and resources that let's face it, would be better spent elsewhere. 

I can, but why you want to hear it? You are here just to troll and you are finding the game hard to beat. Whatever i write you will just say its impossible. You dont think out of the box. If you think that 36 % is small number to beat the game, please never play games with strong AI. You would feel small. Stick to the FM like it is. 

[Freakiie]

Ah, so you have all the answers, we're just not worthy of them. Got it.

[Dagenham_Dave]

3 minutes ago, Matej said:

 If you think that 36 % is small number to beat the game

Winning a domestic league is 'beating the game'? So, if I win the Vanarama North with Scunthorpe, I can just put down the game and brag to my friends that I've beaten FM? Come on sir, did that sound alright in your head? 

4 minutes ago, Matej said:

You are here just to troll and you are finding the game hard to beat

I don't find the game particularly hard or easy, it's pretty finely balanced IMO, especially if you play it the way it's meant to be played and don't use any of the thousands of exploits there are. Of course, I could make it incredibly easy for myself to succeed, but I don't, so I have a good experience with the game.  

6 minutes ago, Matej said:

I can, but why you want to hear it?

I'm genuinely curious, because nobody else has been able to answer this even remotely coherently.  

 

[Matej]

1 hour ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Winning a domestic league is 'beating the game'? So, if I win the Vanarama North with Scunthorpe, I can just put down the game and brag to my friends that I've beaten FM? Come on sir, did that sound alright in your head? 

I don't find the game particularly hard or easy, it's pretty finely balanced IMO, especially if you play it the way it's meant to be played and don't use any of the thousands of exploits there are. Of course, I could make it incredibly easy for myself to succeed, but I don't, so I have a good experience with the game.  

I'm genuinely curious, because nobody else has been able to answer this even remotely coherently.  

 

Ok, Ill write few things

I think SI Policy of "pick in club is your difficulty" doesn't apply. Lower league means it may take some more or less time to get to a top level. It may also mean you may hit a ceiling as far as reputation and stuff are concerned to attract better players. But as far as competing at the top, the level of difficulty is universal. Starting in a lower league doesn't make the game more or less difficult. It will mainly mean you would put in a few more hours (aka patience). And I wish that was different.

I think that AI in FM is like the brain of the 4 year old kid. I think AI in this game is 10% strong as it could be.

 

What they can do? Everthing i write here they can put in FM25. Some things need some time, some need few clicks and they could put it even in this FM24.

1. Smarter AI in match day. 

2. More Agressive AI competition when we are buyin players. In the time when whole world is open book, its unreal how can i buy cheap great players without SERIOUS ai competition. 

3. Additional options at the start of the game to make game harder. Examples on top of my head:

 

3.1  Click so that you cant use player search.  Also scouts need more time to scout real number of the attributes. 

3.2. Option for no stars. I hate the day when they put stars in the game. Now people just dont buy players with lets say bellow 3,5 stars. Before they could make mistake and buy the player with lets say 2 stars.  And i know how stars work, just for trolls sake. 

3.3. Better AI managers. To give to all managers in the leagues you select at the start of the game better attributes ( if that matters at all)

3.4 That you cant buy anymore lets say 10 -15 players per season. Old problem how you get rich fast in the game. You buy 10 players for lets say 5 million per player, but you know they are good enough to sell them for 2x or 3x more. So option at the start of the game that you can buy lets say just 5 players per year. Even better, option that we can choose the number. 

3.5 Realistic injuries- i know people are cry babies about this, so put it as option. 

3.6 One save. call it Ironman or whatever. 

3.7 Other clubs player morale always high

3.8  Owner of the club lets call him " Dictator". So owner of the club that puts much more pressure on you as Manager. example: he says to you that you have to buy some players, or have to sell few players at the end of the season. 
Also he loves few players and puts pressure on you that they must play lets say 30 games per season. 

3.9  AI managers always put their best squad if they play against you. Also use best tactics. 

3.10 If you somehow become filthy rich, players want big big wages.

3.11 AI better using high PA players

3.12 Keeping young  great players at small clubs becomes more difficult

Like i wrote, all things under 3 are OPTIONAL. If you dont like it, dont use it. 

4. More things that can make your job insecure. 

5. Attributes that actually matter in the game. Example: If you have players with low stamina, work rate, then gegenpress will be your grave.

6. Stop SI workers to do media questions, almost noone likes answering Q. In FM22 i just put assistent to answer Q and i won everything i could with Sheffield Wednesday. I dont care about Q, ill beat F. Real Madrid with Sheffield Wednesday 4-0. So it doesnt matter anyway. 
Put them all to work to make smarter AI.

7. Finally make the game where I can see the difference if im the manager of small club or big club ( more mistakes of the players, "ougly" football if you are small team with less talent players).
 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Matej

[Dagenham_Dave]

18 minutes ago, Matej said:

1. Smarter AI in match day. 

2. More Agressive AI competition when we are buyin players. In the time when whole world is open book, its unreal how can i buy cheap great players without SERIOUS ai competition. 

Both of these should be part of the game already, and SI are working towards this. To have this as an option you can toggle would take up ridiculous amounts of time and resources. So, fine idea in theory, but it's something the game is working towards anyway. 

19 minutes ago, Matej said:

3.1  Click so that you cant use player search.  Also scouts need more time to scout real number of the attributes. 

I never use player search. I don't need a button to click to disable this. Also, scouts do take more time to scout real attributes if you have attribute masking on. 

20 minutes ago, Matej said:

Option for no stars. I hate the day when they put stars in the game. Now people just dont buy players with lets say bellow 3,5 stars. Before they could make mistake and buy the player with lets say 2 stars.  And i know how stars work, just for trolls sake. 

Stars are largely irrelevant. If you had no stars, you can still see the scout reports and attributes. Also, there are plenty of external skins that take all these things away, so not needed. 

21 minutes ago, Matej said:

Better AI managers. To give to all managers in the leagues you select at the start of the game better attributes

Neat idea in theory, but again this is something you can do yourself via the editor. And I'm not sure how much of a difference that would make anyway. 

22 minutes ago, Matej said:

That you cant buy anymore lets say 10 -15 players per season. Old problem how you get rich fast in the game. You buy 10 players for lets say 5 million per player, but you know they are good enough to sell them for 2x or 3x more. So option at the start of the game that you can buy lets say just 5 players per year. Even better, option that we can choose the number. 

That's just silly. Putting a limit on things like that takes it completely out of being a simulation and just makes it gamey. Worst suggestion yet. 

23 minutes ago, Matej said:

Realistic injuries- i know people are cry babies about this, so put it as option. 

Injuries should be closer to real life figures anyway. Plus, there's an existing mod that does this already. 

24 minutes ago, Matej said:

One save. call it Ironman or whatever. 

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. 

24 minutes ago, Matej said:

Other clubs player morale always high

Why? If the club you're playing is on a ten game losing streak, why would their morale be high? That makes no sense whatsoever. 

25 minutes ago, Matej said:

Owner of the club lets call him " Dictator". So owner of the club that puts much more pressure on you as Manager. example: he says to you that you have to buy some players, or have to sell few players at the end of the season. 
Also he loves few players and puts pressure on you that they must play lets say 30 games per season. 

There's already certain clubs in the game where the owner forces restrictions on you. Applying this at whatever club you move to is just silly. However, if you feel the need for this to be a thing, you can easily write up a list of restrictions and adhere to it throughout your save. 

26 minutes ago, Matej said:

AI managers always put their best squad if they play against you. Also use best tactics. 

As opposed to what? Also, what if they have injuries, players out of form, etc etc. Again, this is just really gamey and doesn't belong in this type of game. 

28 minutes ago, Matej said:

If you somehow become filthy rich, players want big big wages.

No. Just no. 

28 minutes ago, Matej said:

AI better using high PA players

If this was able to be done effectively, it would be in the game already. They are working towards this. 

29 minutes ago, Matej said:

Keeping young  great players at small clubs becomes more difficult

In what way? I've managed small clubs a lot on FM and on the rare occasion you get a gem, it IS hard to keep them at the club when big clubs want them. How would you make it 'more difficult'? 

30 minutes ago, Matej said:

Attributes that actually metter in the game. Example: If you have players with low stamina, work rate, then gegenpress will be your grave.

Should be in the game already, don't need an extra option for it. 

31 minutes ago, Matej said:

Finally make the game where I can see the difference if im the manager of small club or big club

File under 'overall game improvement'

 

So, a good effort there @Matej , well thought out post and thanks for replying, but the bottom line is, all your suggestions are things you can already do, or just a handful of core improvements that SI are working towards anyway. None of this warrants having specific difficulty levels. 

[Ngoc]

Ironman he means you cannot save is only autosave, so in theory, you remove savescum, but unless you tie it to something like achievements, people can do it by their own will, as Dave said

 

i would like Ironman(autosave) to be the only mode to get achievements so we would see of those 38% that won a league how many actually save scum 

after you remove save scum that percentage will be less than half so his complain that the game is too easy is ridiculous without real data just stop cheating and use some self control as Dave said you can make it hard if you want 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Ngoc

[phnompenhandy]

3 minutes ago, Ngoc said:

i would like Ironman(autosave) to be the only mode to get achievements

I suspect very few of us give a monkey's about achievements.

[Ngoc]

Just now, phnompenhandy said:

I suspect very few of us give a monkey's about achievements.

Than it shouldn't bother you if they do. So why not have it!
Honestly mostly I want it for statistic and to show those whiner “is too easy” crowd that is only really to easy if you cheat or abuse certain specific mechanics like save scum once you remove those only a very very small percentage find it too easy ( and those handful of people could make up their own rule to find challenge without push for feature that only 5% maybe 10% would really use)

[phnompenhandy]

7 minutes ago, Ngoc said:

Than it shouldn't bother you if they do. So why not have it!
Honestly mostly I want it for statistic and to show those whiner “is too easy” crowd that is only really to easy if you cheat or abuse certain specific mechanics like save scum once you remove those only a very very small percentage find it too easy ( and those handful of people could make up their own rule to find challenge without push for feature that only 5% maybe 10% would really use)

I'm not objecting to achievements, although I would like the option to turn them off.

I'm just saying the idea of tying autosaves to them would mean nothing to people like myself.

 

FWIW, after two decades of making my saves harder and harder every year, I'm with the point of view that you can make the game as easy or as difficult as you like. You just need to set your own conditions and stick to them. I don't mind the game being easy for casuals who might only play FM for a few dozen hours in a year - that's not my world and the way they play doesn't interfere with the way I play. It's good that FM caters to such a wide variety of desires and abilities.

[Ngoc]

I agree but so many complain is too easy and they think it's the majority of people when in reality is a tiny minority it would be nice to be able to educate them with some data or an ironman mode to make them stop savescummin and that calling the game easy 
 

It wouldn't save all the problem but is such a small change that would in my opinion make a large impact on the way people understand and view the game that probably is worth it 

 

I am with you i don't think the game is too easy or too hard I can make it as hard as I want and I am happy on how it is and would prefer they focus on AI and bugs rather than listen the “is too easy” crowd they just seem incapable to make their own rule to enjoy the game 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Ngoc

[Costav]

On 30/11/2023 at 16:53, rp1966 said:

For an 'easy game' in which a lot of players will gravitate towards the top level clubs the number of people with the 'won a domestic league' steam achievement seems pretty low at 38% ...

I don't agree.

If you manage to qualify in Champions League the first year after a promotion in one of the top leagues you don't win a title, but you can still think that the game is easy...

[phnompenhandy]

3 hours ago, Ngoc said:

I agree but so many complain is too easy and they think it's the majority of people when in reality is a tiny minority it would be nice to be able to educate them with some data or an ironman mode to make them stop savescummin and that calling the game easy 

There are trolls and entitled idiots everywhere. If people want to cheat then moan the game's too easy, just ignore them. The thread on feedback for FM24 is so overrun with them, I leave them to it and don't bother opening the thread any more. You can't teach them that won't be taught - just leave them to their delusions.

[Costav]

10 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

That's just silly. Putting a limit on things like that takes it completely out of being a simulation and just makes it gamey. Worst suggestion yet

Thanks! 

[Ngoc]

3 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

There are trolls and entitled idiots everywhere. If people want to cheat then moan the game's too easy, just ignore them. The thread on feedback for FM24 is so overrun with them, I leave them to it and don't bother opening the thread any more. You can't teach them that won't be taught - just leave them to their delusions.

Fair point but they may influence other people when in reality the game is quite well balanced if you avoid a couple of glaring player advantage and play fair 

Sad to see how many people just play it wrong that's why I would suggest a couple of guardrail to help people play right 

It's like a referee in soccer we all know the rule but you always need someone that check on them because human tend to bent them if nobody looks.

I see ironman mode as a sort of check in place to boost enjoyment for everybody

Edited December 4, 2023 by Ngoc

[rristola]

I'm not qualified to analyze how difficult FM really is, but I think it could be good to have some kind of a difficulty setup. A bit easier version for new players, and more difficult for veterans (if they wish).

 

First. Opinions from you veterans - are player transfers too easy, and are there tactics which will make you win most of games?

- Like, in pre-season you think that you would like to buy a young star, who just played very well last spring. With your FM experience, do you expect to get him? Even if you are in a 'second class' team?

- Question about 'all winning' tactics. IMO there should always be something that you can do against any tactic - are AI managers really doing all what thay can in FM?

  Does anyone watch whole games in FM? Are there moments where you think something is wrong with the opponent, or like 'what a stupid manager...'.

  With this I'm just wondering, whether tactics are balanced well enough, or could it just be the difference in the quality of those two teams. I don't know.

 

Second. Possibilities to make a difficulty setup.

I do agree that this should be made in a way that is as simple as it can. (I don't know how FM makes these calculations, but maybe you get my idea.) Suggestions:

- Transfers. When you want to buy a player, the factors describing the desire to want to buy that player (by the other teams in line) is multiplied with some number.

  That way all those other teams would be ready to offer more money, but the actual 'worth' of that player wouldn't change.

- Making fatigue a more meaningful factor could make this game more difficult.

  - It would affect your training - with some fatigue multiplier it might be unpossible to keep up players' stamina levels during season, so you would have to give extra physical training for those who don't get minutes on pitch. Those who play much couldn't train effectively.

    Being tired would also have increased effect on sharpness. And getting injured.

    And if the game engine takes (well) into account both tiredness and lacking sharpness, it would be a BAD, BAD decision to put that kind of a player to play.

    Also finding suitable players would need more work - to choose someone with good stamina level, or with good skiil set, but to be ready to give him rest at times.

 

That could be a way to make us, players to be more alert when playing FM. It wouldn't be wise to use any ready training schedule (or ready anything), and leave everything to go on its own. Choosing your team would also be more precise work.

 

My last question is - could this difficulty setup be done as a mod? Do you know any skillful modders?

 

(Sorry my english - not a native.)

[Dagenham_Dave]

28 minutes ago, rristola said:

And if the game engine takes (well) into account both tiredness and lacking sharpness, it would be a BAD, BAD decision to put that kind of a player to play.

This is the problem though. It's currently one of the failings of the match engine, in that it doesn't properly take into consideration tiredness and sharpness, at least not by as much as it should. I know I could leave 11 tired players on the park (despite the warnings) and there would be next to no difference in what happens. But I choose to replace tired players and not start those that aren't fit, as that's what a manager would do. 

Players actually becoming tired and losing sharpness works well enough in the core game, but it's not translated well enough in the match engine IMO. The worst one is if your player takes a knock in-game and has a 'yellow' injury. No matter what that injury is, until you take him off, he'll still run about at full speed, even if its a pulled hamstring (which would be impossible in real life)

So, again, this doesn't need a difficulty setting, it just needs SI to better represent sharpness, fitness and minor injuries in the match/graphic engine. 

[rristola]

10 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

needs SI to better represent sharpness, fitness and minor injuries in the match/graphic engine

Yeah, but wasn't this topic about getting difficulty adjusted.

So, I thought that if those (sharpness, tiredness, fatigue, injuries,...) are taken into account in any way (in game engine), then a little multiplier could enhance them a little bit.

But, how to do it - i don't know. A Mod?

 

I think that this might be the main thing why someones feel that FM is too easy. And if, IF being tired doesn't have (almost) any effect on skills (or using them successfully), then it might feel the same whatever set of players you choose into your first eleven.

Thanks for your answer, Dave.

 

Are there any SI Staff members around? Your opinion on this?

[Dagenham_Dave]

19 minutes ago, rristola said:

Yeah, but wasn't this topic about getting difficulty adjusted.

No, it was more about adding difficulty levels, or arbitrary options to make it harder (although that's in the eye of the beholder, surely), neither of which would be worth the time and/or effort SI would need to put in to achieve it.

[rristola]

45 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

neither of which would be worth the time and/or effort SI would need to put in to achieve it.

Yes, those difficulty levels are for SI to decide.

But, as I wrote in my last comment, I think that many players get that 'too easy game' feeling because of those flaws in the game engine. So, the cause (for easyness) might in fact be those flaws, not the game itself.

Do you agree that GE should be as close to real football as it can? And that tiredness issue needs improvement?

Edited December 4, 2023 by rristola
added a little

[wazzaflow10]

22 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

But this takes up resources and money to implement something in the game that you can effectively do yourself with a bit of willpower. 

But to play along, what 'additional options' would this be? Make AI opponents harder to beat in-game? Would require an entire recoding of the match engine to include that as an option. Can you begin to imagine the cost and effort this would entail? And for what? So that a few players don't win every week? 

What else can you make 'harder' that's not already possible to do in-game or with mods? I'm genuinely curious. 

And anyway, what does the game being 'more difficult' actually look like? It's a game where you win, you lose or you draw. If a tactic is good enough to beat another team on a given day, why would there be a switch which makes it less effective? That would be incredibly annoying for ANYONE playing the game. That doesn't make things more difficult, it just means you're going to win less games, with the only reason being you're on a different game mode. 

I'm hopeful SI never go down this route. I agree 100% with @SaintEtienne (and not for the first time), SI give you this big open world to play in, with mountains of user options to set things up to make it as easy or as hard as you want it to be. And because it's also highly moddable, there's further options if you feel that's not enough. 

 

I think they could go the route of making attributes values based on your scout/coaches JPA/player form etc and hide the actual values. So a 140 CA player might look like a 180 CA player or vice versa. Think it would at least remove some of the "easiness" of buying players you know are good and then brute forcing your way to the top. To me that's the "easy" part of the game that you can definitively know player X is better than player Y. I think it makes scouting and transfer policies much easier to deal with rather than having to decide if your top striker is really replaceable or not when a mega offer comes in. I don't think there's any risk in transfers right now.

But as far as the ME goes, manipulating that to view the human team differently than the AI team for "difficulty reasons" is terrible. There'd be 1000 posts a day of ME is cheating even though the player selected the option.

This is a wishlist item but it'd fun to see the ME evolve randomly over time - moving between positional and relationalism. AI managers could learn how to exploit different functions or have tactics playing styles that the ME favors. We're a long way off anything like that being implemented but in terms of difficulty you'd have to evolve your tactic as the ME favors different movements and patterns of play and theres no one "meta" tactic you can use.

[Dagenham_Dave]

55 minutes ago, rristola said:

Do you agree that GE should be as close to real football as it can? And that tiredness issue needs improvement?

Absolutely, the game can ALWAYS be improved, it will never be perfect. SI knows that as well as anyone. 

[Freakiie]

3 hours ago, rristola said:

Second. Possibilities to make a difficulty setup.

I do agree that this should be made in a way that is as simple as it can. (I don't know how FM makes these calculations, but maybe you get my idea.) Suggestions:

- Transfers. When you want to buy a player, the factors describing the desire to want to buy that player (by the other teams in line) is multiplied with some number.

  That way all those other teams would be ready to offer more money, but the actual 'worth' of that player wouldn't change.

See, the issue when you start talking about these kind of gamey solutions is that the user can completely turn them around on the AI if he wants to. AI interested in some guy that's overpriced, inconsistent and an absolute hothead? Bid on him to force the AI to make a bid as well and then withdraw your bid. Congratulations, good chance you just suckered the AI into buying a player that almost certainly will not be worth the money!

On the other hand, what happens if there is no AI interest? If you multiply zero you still have zero and in a lot of cases the player will swoop in for players long before the AI even starts sniffing around, especially when it comes to young talent, as the player tends to play it far more risky.

And of course you can say, well just don't do that! But then we're basically back to the current conundrum where you can already do a bunch of things if you have the willpower to do so. Coding very specific behaviour for the AI will just make it more predictable and the more predictable it is the easier you can work around it.

[Dagenham_Dave]

6 minutes ago, Freakiie said:

Coding very specific behaviour for the AI will just make it more predictable and the more predictable it is the easier you can work around it.

This 100% 

[Poison]

10 hours ago, Costav said:

If you manage to qualify in Champions League the first year after a promotion in one of the top leagues you don't win a title, but you can still think that the game is easy...

Well promotion achievement sits at 20%, it's even lower as I've pointed in an earlier post.

[rristola]

57 minutes ago, Freakiie said:

issue when you start talking about these kind of gamey solutions

I was talking about the possibility that there could be flaws that SI could fix. In player transfers. Do you think that those transfers in FM are OK?

1 hour ago, Freakiie said:

in a lot of cases the player will swoop in for players long before the AI even starts sniffing around

Oh, you answered already.

 

Yes, I know that in games there can be things you can exploit and... If someone uses them - I don't care. I was talking about the feeling of an average player. And, if this game gets too... anything, it is possible that players won't play this anymore. Not enough money, no...

[Costav]

13 hours ago, Poison said:

Well promotion achievement sits at 20%, it's even lower as I've pointed in an earlier post.

Ok, the comment was just to put in evidence that achievement badges are not a good indicator of the difficulty of the game, although difficulty, for some verse, could be intended as a very subjective concept.

After 20 years of FM I find the game easy, because I understood which are the main dynamics that drive a team to success. On the other side, other users could find it difficult because, for example, they don't mind about training staff and other details that are relevant... 

Edited December 5, 2023 by Costav

[Eccentric_Ed]

My first post in this forum was on this topic, and I got some very interesting responses. Someone said that because SI are always trying to attract new players with every new release they will just keep making the game easier and easier, and I have come to accept that. It was also very interesting hearing from people who have been playing this game for 20 years, and they say that they have definitely noticed the game getting much easier over the last decade or so. In the end I was just relieved that there are people out there who are experiencing the same thing and agree with me. This is the main reason why I'm skipping FM24 this year. I do wonder in the future are SI going to gain new fans quicker or lose older fans quicker by constantly making the game easier.

[Ngoc]

10 minutes ago, Eccentric_Ed said:

My first post in this forum was on this topic...

why do you feel the need to lie?

the post would have worked even without those few starting words... if you want a difficult game force yourself to play in a way that is hard or don't honestly I think it will sell more anyway, especially with FM25 using UNITY it will sell like never before so good riddance. 

[forameuss]

14 minutes ago, Eccentric_Ed said:

My first post in this forum was on this topic, and I got some very interesting responses. Someone said that because SI are always trying to attract new players with every new release they will just keep making the game easier and easier, and I have come to accept that. It was also very interesting hearing from people who have been playing this game for 20 years, and they say that they have definitely noticed the game getting much easier over the last decade or so. In the end I was just relieved that there are people out there who are experiencing the same thing and agree with me. This is the main reason why I'm skipping FM24 this year. I do wonder in the future are SI going to gain new fans quicker or lose older fans quicker by constantly making the game easier.

I know this is often trotted out as fact, but I've always disagreed.  I think SI's antipathy towards difficulty levels in general probably more supports the assertion that they've never really concentrated on making the game "easy" or difficult, or whatever.  They just make the game.  Obviously there's ways you can make certain things accessible, but suggesting like they've somehow gauged how difficult it is and deliberately dumbed it down seems like the usual "SI bad" stuff.  If it has become easier - and I think that's entirely subjective - then it's likely because of the tools that have been made available, rather than any conscious effort.  A human manager is always going to be able to outthink an AI agent, especially when they often struggle with the I part in AI, often the only leveller is just how much power the user is given.  There's a million variables you can affect now, so more opportunity to gain an advantage.

[Dagenham_Dave]

58 minutes ago, Eccentric_Ed said:

Someone said that because SI are always trying to attract new players with every new release they will just keep making the game easier and easier, and I have come to accept that. 

FM12 was miles and miles easier than the current version, so that blows that theory out the water. 

[forameuss]

14 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

FM12 was miles and miles easier than the current version, so that blows that theory out the water. 

And that supports the previous point that "easy" is rarely a conscious design decision.  FM12 was easy because collision detection was yet to be a thing, and quick, direct players could literally ghost straight through defenders with impunity.  Probably the last time you could realistically argue that the ME was "broken".

[Dagenham_Dave]

2 hours ago, forameuss said:

And that supports the previous point that "easy" is rarely a conscious design decision.  FM12 was easy because collision detection was yet to be a thing, and quick, direct players could literally ghost straight through defenders with impunity.  Probably the last time you could realistically argue that the ME was "broken".

It's also the last time I had under 1000 hours in any FM. It got to the point I was deliberately signing slower players to make it seem less nonsensical. I have no idea why that game is revered the way it is. Perhaps because it was so 'easy', who knows?

[Costav]

15 hours ago, Eccentric_Ed said:

My first post in this forum was on this topic, and I got some very interesting responses. Someone said that because SI are always trying to attract new players with every new release they will just keep making the game easier and easier, and I have come to accept that. It was also very interesting hearing from people who have been playing this game for 20 years, and they say that they have definitely noticed the game getting much easier over the last decade or so. In the end I was just relieved that there are people out there who are experiencing the same thing and agree with me. This is the main reason why I'm skipping FM24 this year. I do wonder in the future are SI going to gain new fans quicker or lose older fans quicker by constantly making the game easier.

Mask the attributes of a player and base your judgement on staff reports (without using stars) and on the ability (the octagonal design), you will find the excitement again

Edited December 7, 2023 by Costav