Pointless improving youth setp

[potts9917]

My favourite way of playing FM is bringing through youth players and developing them into the first team over time but despite the fact I have got my youth facilities, youth recruitment, junior training all at 20, and my Youth development officer is the best in the game (I even used the editor to make him the best possible after my first few seasons of annoyance!) and yet every year I still get a poor to average intake of youth players. Meanwhile clubs with much worse set ups than me get players with PA of 170 and above every year. Makes me wonder why bother investing in youth if it makes no difference in the game.

[Elitee]

Pretty sure that the personality of other youth coaches / manager / assistant manager plays a part in the youth recruitment, not just the HOTD. You get a good set of personalities and it can be a golden generation every year. At least it has been in previous titles. 

[herne79]

The HoYD only really influences newgen player personality and type of player, not their PA (there's the odd rare exception but those are real outliers).

Anyway, if you don't think the quality of your facilities have an impact on newgen quality, set all your youth facilities to 1 and see how you get on.  You'll need to dramatically reduce your club's reputation as well as club rep can also have an impact.

[XaW]

Also, remember that the changes to the club infrastructure (youth facilities, youth coaching and youth recruitment) also have an incremental effect, so you won't get the full results of those improvements until some seasons have passed. SI haven't given the exact time frame, but has alluded to that it's over several years before you get the full effect of any improvements.

[Dagenham_Dave]

Gotta love it when someone tries to cheat the game and it doesn't work 

[trviggo]

1 hour ago, XaW said:

SI haven't given the exact time frame, but has alluded to that it's over several years before you get the full effect of any improvements.

Could you provide the statement or at the very least whereabouts of it? Would be helpful in a bug report if someone decides to test whether this is the case. 

Edited November 22, 2023 by trviggo

[XaW]

2 minutes ago, trviggo said:

Could you provide the statement or at the very least whereabouts of it? Would be helpful in a bug report if someone decides to test whether this is the case. 

I have it in my notes, but not saved the link. It was on this forum somewhere.

[enigmatic]

14 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Gotta love it when someone tries to cheat the game and it doesn't work 

Could have saved himself a moan by editing the potential of his players 

[forameuss]

Do some people really want the quality of youth to just be some function of three numbers with the biggest number always producing once-in-a-generation style players?  Not only would that be highly unrealistic, wouldn't it also make the game pretty tedious?  Thousands of clubs in the game, but nah, let's just make sure only the top ones produce anything because big number is big.

[Thebaker]

Saints have had no youth players come through into the 1st team for nearly 10 years IRL even with pretty good facilities so i would say its very realistic.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Thebaker

[Weed07]

There are a lot more factors at play than facilities and HOYD and it can also take several years for changes to take effect, its like the game starts your intakes years before you get them so your cheated HOYD won't start having an effect straight away, you will see it maybe 4 or 5 years later or longer. Your overall youth coaching staff have an effect too not just your HOYD so you want them to all have good personalities and attributes.

Also what is your club reputation? The best youth players will choose the bigger clubs first regardless of your facilities, for example if Luton had the best youth set up the best young kids will still want to join Man City because of their reputation.

You should try doing a youth only save, check out the challenge section on the forums, you will learn a lot about how to produce the best youth players when thats all you have to rely on, but if you do theres no cheating allowed using the editor so it may be too hard for you.

[forameuss]

2 hours ago, Thebaker said:

Saints have had no youth players come through into the 1st team for nearly 10 years IRL even with pretty good facilities so i would say its very realistic.

And furthermore, I'd imagine that if you had a view over every youth player that "graduated" at a club when they were 15, 90% of them would be jobbers who would never amount to anything and be working "proper jobs" by the time they reach adulthood.  6% probably eke out a decent living playing football, although at a much lower level.  3% "make it big" at a big club.  Less than 1% probably go on to be considered world class, and probably once or twice in a generation do you get the sort of talent that people believe should be getting churned out of youth academies in FM as soon as you hit 20 on facilities.

[-Jef-]

20 hours ago, XaW said:

I have it in my notes, but not saved the link. It was on this forum somewhere.

I can confirm this , I also have it in my 'youth development' notes but am without a link. It was in a discussion for fm20-ish iirc?

 

I think it takes about 3-5 seasons that everything gets in full effect

Edited November 23, 2023 by -Jef-

[XaW]

1 hour ago, -Jef- said:

I can confirm this , I also have it in my 'youth development' notes but am without a link. It was in a discussion for fm20-ish iirc?

I think it takes about 3-5 seasons that everything gets in full effect

Yeah, my (admittedly very fuzzy) memory think it might have been Seb who said it, but I'm far from certain.

To give a bit more to it, I think everyone should consider it as a lottery. The better youth setups, the more tickets, but the winners are random after all.

For example looking at the top 15 of this seasons Ballon d'Or we get (based on what club they were at on their 16th birthday as that's the closest to the FM intake)

Lionel Messi - Barcelona (Spain)
Erling Haaland - Bryne (Norway)
Kylian Mbappé - Monaco (France)
Kevn De Bruyne - Genk (Belgium)
Rodrí - Atlético Madrid (Spain)
VinÍ Jr - Flamengo (Brazl)
Julián Álvarez - River Plate (Argentina)
Victor Osimhen - Ultimate Strikers Academy (Nigeria)
Bernardo Silva - Benfica (Portugal)
Luka Modrić - Dinamo Zagreb (Croatia)
Mohamed Salah - Othmason Tanta/Al Mokawloon (Egypt)
Robert Lewandowski - MKS Varsovia Warsaw (Poland)
Yassine Bounou - Wydad Casablanca (Morocco)
İlkay Gündoğan - Bochum (Germany)
Emiliano Martínez - Independiente (Argentina)

Of course, this is just a random sample, but we can see that no club is on the list two times. In fact, only one country has two clubs there (Argentina), and with 3 players the list is shifted due to them winning the WC... And while a few of the clubs on the list are top clubs, there are also very small clubs that has fostered some of the best players around, and I imagine if I had set the age at 14 there would be even more obscure clubs there. Most of the best players in the world aren't picked up until they are older than 16, many times due to child protective laws they are unable to change club until they are older, so it can be a luck of the draw where they start their career. And that is reflected in the game, I think. The best clubs have the best overall intakes, but a gem can be found anywhere. And I also think the game is better for it. What fun would it be if you only had to look at a select few clubs to know who the best talents are?

[-Jef-]

3 minutes ago, XaW said:

Yeah, my (admittedly very fuzzy) memory think it might have been Seb who said it, but I'm far from certain.

 

 

It miiiight be him

 

Also, plenty of people do not realise that 3* player is GOOD starting calibre player

 

This is my mezala in a current save

 

 

Anyone would agree that he's really good, especially for Croatian league.

If I got a player that good every year I would be ecstatic. And he is only 3* CA.

 

Combined with that knowledge I have signed the following players from my 23/24 youth intake graduates

 

 

I have two potential top tier players (I'm talking Kovačić, Mandžukić type players, maybe Modrić level of player). I have three potential stars for my league, two potential regular starters and one potential backup. That is 8 players signed that have prospects to have big role in my club in next 3+ years. Obviously every player could be derailed by injuries and I could end up with 8 duds but if I go with that attitude into every youth intake I will never have anyone from my youth academy in my club...

[Razor940]

Em 22/11/2023 em 18:48, XaW disse:

Also, remember that the changes to the club infrastructure (youth facilities, youth coaching and youth recruitment) also have an incremental effect, so you won't get the full results of those improvements until some seasons have passed. SI haven't given the exact time frame, but has alluded to that it's over several years before you get the full effect of any improvements.

One thing, I improved my youth recruitment and training and usually you have to wait until the change is done, but how much? It feels like I waited 6 months already and still didn't change the numbers.

[Ronnieekelund]

6 hours ago, Thebaker said:

Saints have had no youth players come through into the 1st team for nearly 10 years IRL even with pretty good facilities so i would say its very realistic.

Gallagher, Smallbone, Targett, Obafemi, Valery. Nathan Tella although briefly at Arsenal.

[GreenTriangle]

8 hours ago, Razor940 said:

I waited 6 months already and still didn't change the numbers.

I had players poached by other clubs in 2026 (March-April) who appeared at the intakes of those clubs only in 2028 and 2029.

[potts9917]

On 22/11/2023 at 14:01, Elitee said:

Pretty sure that the personality of other youth coaches / manager / assistant manager plays a part in the youth recruitment, not just the HOTD. You get a good set of personalities and it can be a golden generation every year. At least it has been in previous titles. 

My HoYD has a perfectionist personality, I chose this because they seem to be the best

[potts9917]

On 22/11/2023 at 18:48, XaW said:

Also, remember that the changes to the club infrastructure (youth facilities, youth coaching and youth recruitment) also have an incremental effect, so you won't get the full results of those improvements until some seasons have passed. SI haven't given the exact time frame, but has alluded to that it's over several years before you get the full effect of any improvements.

6 years in and...

[potts9917]

On 22/11/2023 at 19:33, Dagenham_Dave said:

Gotta love it when someone tries to cheat the game and it doesn't work 

More just proving a point, I have another save that I don't use the editor but it has shown that trying to develop a youth system is pointless

[potts9917]

On 23/11/2023 at 10:44, forameuss said:

Do some people really want the quality of youth to just be some function of three numbers with the biggest number always producing once-in-a-generation style players?  Not only would that be highly unrealistic, wouldn't it also make the game pretty tedious?  Thousands of clubs in the game, but nah, let's just make sure only the top ones produce anything because big number is big.

Surely that it is realistic look at Chelsea and City as an example. Year on year top young players coming through the system. In real life if you had the best facilities, the best coaches, the best scouting, the best youth system every year you would get at least one gem and 5 or 6 top players, look at City and Chelsea if you don't believe me. Otherwise clubs would not spend the money on it.

[potts9917]

On 23/11/2023 at 14:21, Thebaker said:

Saints have had no youth players come through into the 1st team for nearly 10 years IRL even with pretty good facilities so i would say its very realistic.

I could do it with any team, I have basically cheated to see what happens and it makes no difference

[potts9917]

On 23/11/2023 at 15:24, Weed07 said:

There are a lot more factors at play than facilities and HOYD and it can also take several years for changes to take effect, its like the game starts your intakes years before you get them so your cheated HOYD won't start having an effect straight away, you will see it maybe 4 or 5 years later or longer. Your overall youth coaching staff have an effect too not just your HOYD so you want them to all have good personalities and attributes.

Also what is your club reputation? The best youth players will choose the bigger clubs first regardless of your facilities, for example if Luton had the best youth set up the best young kids will still want to join Man City because of their reputation.

You should try doing a youth only save, check out the challenge section on the forums, you will learn a lot about how to produce the best youth players when thats all you have to rely on, but if you do theres no cheating allowed using the editor so it may be too hard for you.

I might try to see what happens if I make every one of these features the best and see if it works. I genuinely think it still wont work

[potts9917]

On 23/11/2023 at 16:51, forameuss said:

And furthermore, I'd imagine that if you had a view over every youth player that "graduated" at a club when they were 15, 90% of them would be jobbers who would never amount to anything and be working "proper jobs" by the time they reach adulthood.  6% probably eke out a decent living playing football, although at a much lower level.  3% "make it big" at a big club.  Less than 1% probably go on to be considered world class, and probably once or twice in a generation do you get the sort of talent that people believe should be getting churned out of youth academies in FM as soon as you hit 20 on facilities.

Or the best youth systems like Chelsea- Musiala James Broja Livramento Gallagher Coliwell Mount Rice Tomori Solanke Loftus-Cheek Chalaboa Guehi Abrahams Oliseh Gilmour etc

[craiigman]

EBFM has done some videos, might be worth checking out: https://www.youtube.com/@ebfm

Was for Fm23 but imagine it's the same now

[forameuss]

4 minutes ago, potts9917 said:

Or the best youth systems like Chelsea- Musiala James Broja Livramento Gallagher Coliwell Mount Rice Tomori Solanke Loftus-Cheek Chalaboa Guehi Abrahams Oliseh Gilmour etc

Several of them didn't begin their careers with Chelsea and were brought in later.  Musiala and Broja were Southampton, Gilmour was Rangers.  Several others were brought into Chelsea having been with other clubs at a younger age.  In FM terms, they'd likely be a product of Chelsea, but in reality, not really.  Which is what a lot of clubs with cash do.  Let proper youth academies do their work, keep your ears open, and chuck obscene amounts of money at the clubs so you can bring them in and "finish" them.  And by finish, I mean mostly chuck them out on loan until you're eventually bored, then sell them, since that's what happens most of the time.  

And given it's the post you replied to, are any of those players going to fall into the 1% I mentioned?  Musiala likely, but the rest of them seem like a smattering of Premier League stars, and most will just end up being your standard level player, and will have likely come into the youth academy with hundreds of others who were absolute jobbers.  Which is the point.  That's pretty much exactly what the game currently produces, mostly producing "3 star" players that will go on to be solid options at a certain level.

[Dagenham_Dave]

38 minutes ago, potts9917 said:

Or the best youth systems like Chelsea- Musiala James Broja Livramento Gallagher Coliwell Mount Rice Tomori Solanke Loftus-Cheek Chalaboa Guehi Abrahams Oliseh Gilmour etc

Apart from Billy Gilmour, none of them are remotely world class. 

[fc.cadoni]

Having everything maxed out, does not mean newgen high PA players will spawn at your club every year. Youth Intake Preview is a pointless inbox item for me, actual intake matters where I can see Personality, Media Handling Style and attributes. There some Nation and Club factors for newgens as well.

Nation Factors

Game Importance
Economic Factor
FA Financial Power
State of Development
Youth Rating

Club Factors

Youth Facilities
Youth Coaches
Youth Recruitment
Youth Importance

League and Club reputation playing a role as well. As well as youth coaching staff as other wrote. Also, those things need time to "kick-in" and again, does not 100% guarantee success, because you are not alone in game. 

[JAwtunes]

On 22/11/2023 at 20:26, trviggo said:

Could you provide the statement or at the very least whereabouts of it? Would be helpful in a bug report if someone decides to test whether this is the case. 

It was mentioned in one of those FM Byline articles a while back. There might be some dev quotes too.

MISCONCEPTION #7: THE AI TEAMS ALWAYS GET BETTER NEWGENS THAN ME

Newgen envy is real. While it is true that certain nations and clubs seem to be Golden Boy factories in-game and in real life, that does not mean that you’re consigned to permanent disappointment on Youth Intake Day or that there’s nothing you can do as manager to improve the quality of your Newgens.

This is something we have explored on The Byline previously, but we’ll give you a quick rundown here of some of the steps you can take. Upgrading your Facilities directly impact the quality of your Newgens over time, while improving the natures of your backroom staff will directly impact the personalities of those prospects before they hit the intake screen. Recruiting a great Head of Youth Development in 2022 won’t suddenly give you amazing Newgens in 2023 or even 2024 - their influence is strongest with the younger, more impressionable players hidden in the club's background (think 2025 and beyond). 

Even with the best possible Facilities, Staff and infrastructure, there is still an element of chance on Youth Intake Day. That elusive ‘golden generation’ might happen in your first season or might never materialise at all – that’s part of the fun, though, isn’t it?

[trviggo]

Just now, JAwtunes said:

Recruiting a great Head of Youth Development in 2022 won’t suddenly give you amazing Newgens in 2023 or even 2024 - their influence is strongest with the younger, more impressionable players hidden in the club's background (think 2025 and beyond). 

Considering you can tweak the youth rating, facilities, Head of Youth etc. after the preview date (a feature that seems to serve 0 purpose fwiw) and still improve the quality of your newgens that year such a statement is absolutely bewildering. Does SI really expect us to believe it? Oh well, should be straight forward enough to test. 

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by trviggo

[Dagenham_Dave]

18 hours ago, potts9917 said:

More just proving a point, I have another save that I don't use the editor but it has shown that trying to develop a youth system is pointless

It's not pointless, you just don't understand how it works. A small, but crucial difference. 

[-Jef-]

18 hours ago, potts9917 said:

6 years in and...

Meaningless screen

 

Show us the players - attributes and scouting report

[GreenTriangle]

19 hours ago, potts9917 said:

I might try to see what happens if I make every one of these features the best and see if it works. I genuinely think it still wont work

It works. What is said in various video materials is NOT that it "doesn't work", but that there is a difference between the initial database and the database after 20-30-40 years. In other words, fewer world-class players are generated than would be necessary to maintain the initial level. Others say that the number of players could be similar, but the game's ability to develop those players is less than it should be. All in all, this does NOT mean that very good players would not be generated. In fact, I conducted a test in FM22 and, indeed, the proportion of players with PA of 170 and 150 was 25-30% lower than the one needed to maintain the current level. However, I don't know if the test is still valid for FM23 and FM24, nor if certain factors that I omitted determined this difference.

Edited November 26, 2023 by GreenTriangle

[rjferguson90]

23 hours ago, forameuss said:

Broja were Southampton

Nitpicking but as I Saints fan I have point out this is incorrect. Broja has been at Chelsea since he was 8, after spending a couple of years at Spurs. He was only at Saints for a year on loan when he was 20.

[forameuss]

2 hours ago, rjferguson90 said:

Nitpicking but as I Saints fan I have point out this is incorrect. Broja has been at Chelsea since he was 8, after spending a couple of years at Spurs. He was only at Saints for a year on loan when he was 20.

I think I picked the wrong guy, was there someone else in that list at Southampton?  Broja definitely not it, like you say.

Core point still stands though.  I think the "in vogue" way of developing youth for the biggest (read, richest) clubs is just to let better facilities do it, then buy them when they're a surer thing.  Bit of a miserable state of affairs.

[JimmysTheBestCop]

The most important factor for youth intake outside of England is nation game importance. 

It has about 5 different options from very important to unimportant. But if it's not set to very important basically nothing happens even if youth rating for nation is high. 

Take USA and sim 30-40 tears their national team can be top 3-5. But their 1st team is born overseas. They have a youth rating of around 125. But game importance is unimportant. 

That just doesn't mean they can't produce wonderkids it means they can't even produce average players or even the quantity needed for MLS or their national team. 

This is why dynamic youth rating was bogus. Sure the counter increases but it does nothing to your universe. 

Czech Poland Switzerland have higher youth rating then Denmark. Who produces more 1st team players? Well the 3 countries are important while Denmark is very important. 

It's an absolutely huge difference. 

In essence developing youth in any of the 20 European countries with game importance set to very high is actually completely pointless. Nothing is going to happen. 

Now in those 20 let's use England. They are basically tops for everything youth rated in Europe. Once you max all youth related facilities to get the best shot at top English intake you need to be the reputation team in England. That's how it works. 

I've done llm to Prem in England. Youth is again irrelevant. Because once you are #1 rep in England you've probably won the 3x in a row and the champions league 2-3x and your save is over. 

So even doing LLM in England it's completely up to the rng gods. And for those teams it's basically pointless and a waste of time and resources. 

This is the classic problem build a nation saves have. You can build a league up. Ive done a top 5 with Hungary. But default it's set to important not very important so it can't produce talent equal to the level it becomes. Or basically any talent. The entire national team becomes 3rd rate players who becomes citizens. Cause the intake it produces is like a 10th tier English side. 

Game importance also effects all the overall number of elite players in the future. Because unless the rng gods strike no nations will produce elite outside of the top 20 European and about 5 South America and 5 African teams. 

It's why early game you can find some starting players from Chile or Venezuela depending on your tier but cause they are real. But their game importance is useless so even though chile rating is higher then Paraguay Uruguay and Peru they will produce significantly less average players. Those other nations yup set to very important. 

So a ton of nations who have above average players irl life presently lose the ability to even produce avg players after 10 seasons. 

Game importance kills long terms saves. In my Hungary save it was mid 2050s I had more starting English players then any other nation on my team. More starting English players then any English Prem team. 

So unless you are laying a top or near top team in a top very important nation yeah youth intake mechanics are kinda super irrelevant

[trviggo]

5 hours ago, JimmysTheBestCop said:

 

Why not just change Game Importance of all nations to very important before starting a save then?

Edited November 27, 2023 by trviggo

[yoyobandito]

You should go and play in a tiny league in one of the bigger countries. You'll get 15 year old first team ready players most seasons.

[JimmysTheBestCop]

2 hours ago, trviggo said:

Why not just change Game Importance of all nations to very important before starting a save then?

It would be agonizing slow in the pre game editor to do every nation. But it would probably make long term saves better.  

Then youth rating would actually matter a lot more. And talent should be redistributed more even globally. 

Then the next question would be developing nation or developed nation. It doesn't seem to impact intake but the level of players teams go after. 

Like I'm pretty sure Faroe islands by default is very high game importance and developed nation. While say Hungary is just important and developing. 

 

[phnompenhandy]

There are *.fmf add-ons knocking around that make all nations' youth rating 200, 175 or 150. They were available for FM23 - I'm sure someone will have done the same for FM24. Just need to look around other sites with downloadable mods.

[trviggo]

1 hour ago, JimmysTheBestCop said:

It would be agonizing slow in the pre game editor to do every nation. But it would probably make long term saves better.  

Then youth rating would actually matter a lot more. And talent should be redistributed more even globally. 

Then the next question would be developing nation or developed nation. It doesn't seem to impact intake but the level of players teams go after. 

Like I'm pretty sure Faroe islands by default is very high game importance and developed nation. While say Hungary is just important and developing. 

 

You can batch edit every nation in the PGE. Since that is only what 200 ish nations I reckon it'll take 10 seconds tops. It's  a wonder why it's not an available edit in the IGE though. 

Edited November 27, 2023 by trviggo

[JimmysTheBestCop]

27 minutes ago, trviggo said:

You can batch edit every nation in the PGE. Since that is only what 200 ish nations I reckon it'll take 10 seconds tops. It's  a wonder why it's not an available edit in the IGE though. 

Oh that is some great info. I dont know anything about batch edits. IS there a manual or a link or something? It be cool to do some long term testing

[Thebaker]

On 25/11/2023 at 20:52, trviggo said:

Considering you can tweak the youth rating, facilities, Head of Youth etc. after the preview date (a feature that seems to serve 0 purpose fwiw) and still improve the quality of your newgens that year such a statement is absolutely bewildering. Does SI really expect us to believe it? Oh well, should be straight forward enough to test. 

 

Tweaking the facilities after the preview date has no effect. The youths on preview date have a range of PA and CA, hence they can change on the day they come through

[trviggo]

1 hour ago, JimmysTheBestCop said:

Oh that is some great info. I dont know anything about batch edits. IS there a manual or a link or something? It be cool to do some long term testing

You literally just select multiple nations from the search screen in the pre-game editor and click on edit like you would a single one. All items that can be batch edited will be selectable for edit and any changes made to these will be applied to all individually. 

Editor's Hideout section on these forums is prob your best bet for learning more about it. There's a disgusting lack of information about the editor and how to use it considering the potential it has.

Edited November 27, 2023 by trviggo

[JimmysTheBestCop]

1 minute ago, trviggo said:

You literally just select multiple nations from the search screen in the pre-game editor and click on edit like you would a single one. All items that can be batch edited will be selectable for edit and any changes made to these will be applied to all individually. 

Editor's Hideout section on these forums is prob your best bet for learning more about it. There's a disgusting lack of information about the editor and how to use it considering the potential it has.

how does it feel to be a rock star man!!!!

 

[trviggo]

10 minutes ago, Thebaker said:

Tweaking the facilities after the preview date has no effect. 

This has been proven extensively to in fact change the intake. It's part of why the "Effects gradually increase" thing sounds strange. The preview is basically a sham. 

Edited November 27, 2023 by trviggo

[forameuss]

7 hours ago, JimmysTheBestCop said:

It would be agonizing slow in the pre game editor to do every nation. But it would probably make long term saves better.  

Then youth rating would actually matter a lot more. And talent should be redistributed more even globally. 

Then the next question would be developing nation or developed nation. It doesn't seem to impact intake but the level of players teams go after. 

Like I'm pretty sure Faroe islands by default is very high game importance and developed nation. While say Hungary is just important and developing. 

 

No it wouldn't.  If you're changing all nations to the same value, bulk edit, would take 2 seconds.

[RandomGuy.]

Having a handful of youth players capable of playing EPL football is a sensational intake, based on reality.

[forameuss]

26 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Having a handful of youth players capable of playing EPL football is a sensational intake, based on reality.

Pin this to the top of the thread in big letters.  Now you can argue that this is a game and it shouldn't reflect real life (the age old FM argument of "this isn't realistic/it shouldn't be realistic, it's a game"), but the way it works now is probably more generous than it could be if we were being truly realistic.  Fag-packet calculations, but based on the above, if you're at an EPL club in FM, you would expect that in a series of 6 intakes (to cover for your 21 to 26 range), you would get 3 players (out of 96) that would be considered good enough to make an EPL appearance.  And you'd probably say that "good enough for the EPL" star-wise is, what, 2.5?  And people are expecting to see 4 or 5 star players regularly?  Aye, ok then.