Player valuations still make no sense at all, and it's still a problem

[turnip]

I know that SI still have their immovable position that player valuations are just a guide - but they've never been just that, and it's been an issue for years. And it's never actually been addressed.

A case study.

This is Leozinho. He's my first-choice D(R) or WB(R), or Libero when we play with a Libero. We signed him a couple of years ago from Palmeiras; initially on a loan which we made permanent at the end of the season.

So far, we've had 18 months from him as a very good right-sided defender. 

Also, I have the Editor enabled for this save, so I know not only how well he plays for us, but his CA and PA too. His PA is very very good. Which is why I spent £16m to sign him. It's more than I usually spend at this sort of club, but we had the money, so I thought 'why not'.

But lots of teams want him. Specifically, at the moment, Juventus. And this isn't a random "let's see if we can unsettle him and get him cheap" deal - they really want him. 

So why, when I've spent £16m to sign him, we've got plenty of money, he's got two-and-a-half years left on his contract and is on the verge of a call-up to the Brazilian National Team, are Juventus throwing out insultingly low bids like this for him?

 

Oh yeah, it's because of that utterly arbitrary number the game's just slapped on the player by way of a 'Valuation' (see the first screenshot). Based on some combination of 'value left on contract', 'player reputation', 'club reputation' and 'league reputation'. You could argue - and people have - that those are all very sensible things to base a player's valuation on, but the fact is, there isn't a club in the real world who would sell Leozinho for less than £25m in this same situation. (And honestly, I'd be looking for closer to £40m).

The problem this causes is that it's impossible to do the 'real world thing' and not have your player get royally pissed off at you. And this isn't even the most egregious example from my save at the moment.

My players are all replaceable if the right bid comes in, but because the rules aren't applied evenly, I'd have to go and spend £10m to replace Leozinho with a player I'd be receiving bids of £5m for before the end of the season. 

It's the kind of thing that makes every single transfer window sap my enthusiasm, because despite having more money than the GDP of some small nations, I'm fighting to break even on transfers. 

 

And it's also really frustrating because I do think transfers have improved in FM24. So having to deal with this idiocy for yet another year is disappointing. 

 

Spoiler

And I do realise that the club reputation is probably the biggest factor here. Another thing SI have failed to sort out in years. Here's our performance in the UCL over the last few seasons to show why we shouldn't be sandwiched between Lokomotiv Moscow and Qarabag on the 'Reputation' list.

 

 

[santy001]

So you've used the editor to inform your decision to make a player purchase at a level you wouldn't normally do, because you saw the PA which is something you don't ordinarily have access to through the game.

You're then unhappy that Juventus aren't basing their price on this value that you have access to, but the AI doesn't. He's a decent player who likely in the position he plays doesn't accrue fantastic average ratings and at a club who don't likely have the power long term (particularly if you remove the human manager element) to stay competing at their current level. 

The sensible solution is if you receive an offer you're unhappy with, reject it. If the player becomes unhappy about you rejecting the offer then it does show Juventus have hit a pressure point because the other attributes you likely haven't checked (so not PA) result in a player who would want to make that move. 

[turnip]

No, I'm arguing that the game has set an arbitrary value on the player that is a long way below what any club should expect to pay. And that arbitrary value has a direct impact on what I can do with a bid that comes in. If a player's value is £7m-£10m, then there is a hard limit on what the player will accept as a "reasonable" offer when I explain why I'm turning it down. It's also very much what a club seems to base their first bid on, unless there's been a very public bidding war previously. 

To (hopefully) emphasise the point, this has happened with a lot of the players at my squad. I'm going to show Ricardo Chalá (signed a new contract a week ago; been performing well) and then spoiler the rest so this isn't just an image dump. But can you really argue that any of these players is valued 'well' or 'fairly'?

 

To reiterate: a feature I have no control over (player valuations) is really limiting how much control I have on a part of the game I'm supposed to have a lot of input into (transfers). You'd never normally allow a player to sign with a MFRC significantly lower than the fee you were stumping up for him (because you'd have control over that), so why should I have to suck it up when it's the result of some random algorithm SI have buried in the game and have never actually got right?

 

Spoiler

  

  

 

[obasa_G]

I think the reputation of the league you're in has the most significant effect on the valuation of your players.

[santy001]

You're putting a lot more emphasis on the values than they really have in the game. As you always have the option to reject bids. Players will get unhappy but you can navigate that and if it comes to a head then there are situations in which you'll lose a player. Clubs have to accept this all the time. 

Could the players be valued higher? Perhaps, but they're on very low contracts £20k per week isn't beyond the realms of what top half Championship sides can afford. The league reputation does in turn mean that the achievements of the players carry less weight.

The valuations are still more than double the record for any sale from a Hungarian side in real life. The Stoke signing of Ryan Mmaee from Hungary this summer is one of the biggest transfer fees paid to a Hungarian side. 

[Freakiie]

Mmaee went for €3.5m+ and is not a great player, comparing him to Chalá is just disingenuous. Lisztes is going for €4.5m, with bonuses up to €10.8m and that's an unproven 18 year old. Meanwhile, Chalá is 21, absolute class, worldwide reputation, but is valued at like €13m? That's just absolute nonsense, the guy looks good enough to walk into almost any starting eleven out there. Any club from a top 5 league buys him and the game will value him at €100m+ before he has even played a game.

Also with the OP doing pretty well in Europe Hungary's league rep should have improved quite a bit, his own club rep should be good and the player will have demonstrated his skills on the highest level in the CL. I recall this being a lot better in FM22 (although perhaps a bit too good), but this reminds me of the days where you could buy de Ligt from Ajax with basically any club in a bigger league for like €20m while in real life every top club was after him and the rumors that were around suggested he could very well become the most expensive defender ever. Talking about the OP using the editor and stuff like that really shouldn't matter in this argument, a player of Chalá's calibre, with worldwide reputation and plenty of CL experience should never be valued that ridiculously low regardless of what national league he plays in!

[Xavier Lukhas]

It probably has a lot to do with the expected national transfer/wages values baked in the game. Happened to me in Slovenia eons ago: players who would be asking for millions per week in England were happy at a tenth of that (which is still very solid money mind you) in Slovenia because 1) I found them when they were nothing and cost nothing and 2) expected wages value sin Slovenia are very low. Same for transfer values when selling a player... to a point: when my club became a 5 star reputation club (and soon after the most reputable club in the world), which happens when you win the CL since its reputation is the maximum 200 out of 200, I started having "normal" transfer bids from other big European clubs for my star players even though the Slovenian first division wasn't top 10 in reputation rankings. But until then, it was terrible offers after terrible offers that don't really respect the quality of the player, the financial situation of the club (as you don't need the money at all), the money you've spent bringing him in, nothing. Basically the offers were indexed on the wages and in-editor values the AI should abide by. That being said, obviously if you decide to, say, quadruple his wages, incoming offers will at least reflect that. 20k per week isn't much for a world class player; I'm repeating myself, but that's also partly why you get terrible offers: the players don't cost much to you either.

A lot of aspects in FM are pretty stiff and rigid and don't contort well to fit very unexpected situations, like a club from absolutely nowhere becoming a worldwide superpower. Regarding winning the CL, FM also doesn't value well having excellent consistent runs as much as getting the trophy. There's a huge gap between the reputation earned by winning the CL once (which will skyrocket you to the top of the world) and doing nothing of note for years, and say, getting 3-5 semi-final runs; even if the latter is more reflective of how sound your club actually is. Likewise in Slovenia and until I won the trophy, for like five years in a row the end of season recap for the CL noted our club as the most surprising outfit... even though I was really consistently getting to the latter parts of the competition, which any real life analyst would have noticed. Then I won it, and the game went "oh, they're obviously world class now"... which we already were since it wasn't exactly our first rodeo deep into the competition. Consistency and doing well without quite winning the trophy isn't well rewarded in FM, and there's a lot of inertia regarding reputation.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Xavier Lukhas

[santy001]

45 minutes ago, Freakiie said:

Mmaee went for €3.5m+ and is not a great player, comparing him to Chalá is just disingenuous. Lisztes is going for €4.5m, with bonuses up to €10.8m and that's an unproven 18 year old. Meanwhile, Chalá is 21, absolute class, worldwide reputation, but is valued at like €13m? That's just absolute nonsense, the guy looks good enough to walk into almost any starting eleven out there. Any club from a top 5 league buys him and the game will value him at €100m+ before he has even played a game.

It was an example to reference what you can kind of expect from the Hungarian division however. Most of the bigger sales historically in Hungary have been unproven youngsters with potential. 

Ultimately the situation is reflective of the fact that most clubs in such a situation can put an offer of around £15m on the table and force a clubs hand by leveraging the fact the player will really want to join them. Put either of these players at a lower/midtable Premier league team and they'd probably command closer to £100m for sure. The difference? Much more likely to be tied down to a substantial contract with 7 figure bonuses included and proven performances at a more consistent level. 

You can reject bids ad-infinitum if you can deal with the consequences of that decision. Even with temperamental players through a mixture of interactions, waiting out unhappiness and negotiating new deals at the right time you can maintain control a lot of the time. 

[Freakiie]

9 hours ago, santy001 said:

It was an example to reference what you can kind of expect from the Hungarian division however. Most of the bigger sales historically in Hungary have been unproven youngsters with potential. 

Ultimately the situation is reflective of the fact that most clubs in such a situation can put an offer of around £15m on the table and force a clubs hand by leveraging the fact the player will really want to join them. Put either of these players at a lower/midtable Premier league team and they'd probably command closer to £100m for sure. The difference? Much more likely to be tied down to a substantial contract with 7 figure bonuses included and proven performances at a more consistent level. 

You can reject bids ad-infinitum if you can deal with the consequences of that decision. Even with temperamental players through a mixture of interactions, waiting out unhappiness and negotiating new deals at the right time you can maintain control a lot of the time. 

But that's the issue, that's not realistic is it?!

No club put down a €15m bid on the table for say Frenkie de Jong or de Ligt, even though it's not as if they were earning millions at Ajax, because everyone knew these were two of the greatest talents in the world, every top club was after them and both the club and the player would have laughed you out the room if some PL relegation candidate had shown up with €15m. Also thanks to the CL Ajax's finances wouldn't care about €15m in the slightest, so approaching them financially in the same way as the rest of the Eredivisie again makes no sense. The OP is basically in the same situation, yes his national league isn't the greatest, but with CL knockout stage money his club is going to be pretty wealthy and the players that show a level that gets him to the knockout stages should not be rated as your average guy from the Hungarian league. Admittedly, the players should also take this into account and ask for a bit more than €1m/yr no doubt, as the club can clearly afford that and they are worth it, but this is just another part where things get really awkward when you start doing relatively well as a club from a small league.

And sure, you can keep rejecting bids and probably even keep these players very happy at your club if you butter up to them enough, but that's not really the issue is it? The issue is that a guy with world class attributes, who year after year shows it in the CL, would not be rated as a ~€15m player simply due to playing in Hungary. Especially a Hungary that has a much improved reputation as obviously those CL runs from the OP are gonna do wonders for their league coefficients.

[trevjim]

21 hours ago, turnip said:

I know that SI still have their immovable position that player valuations are just a guide - but they've never been just that, and it's been an issue for years. And it's never actually been addressed.

A case study.

This is Leozinho. He's my first-choice D(R) or WB(R), or Libero when we play with a Libero. We signed him a couple of years ago from Palmeiras; initially on a loan which we made permanent at the end of the season.

So far, we've had 18 months from him as a very good right-sided defender. 

Also, I have the Editor enabled for this save, so I know not only how well he plays for us, but his CA and PA too. His PA is very very good. Which is why I spent £16m to sign him. It's more than I usually spend at this sort of club, but we had the money, so I thought 'why not'.

But lots of teams want him. Specifically, at the moment, Juventus. And this isn't a random "let's see if we can unsettle him and get him cheap" deal - they really want him. 

So why, when I've spent £16m to sign him, we've got plenty of money, he's got two-and-a-half years left on his contract and is on the verge of a call-up to the Brazilian National Team, are Juventus throwing out insultingly low bids like this for him?

 

Oh yeah, it's because of that utterly arbitrary number the game's just slapped on the player by way of a 'Valuation' (see the first screenshot). Based on some combination of 'value left on contract', 'player reputation', 'club reputation' and 'league reputation'. You could argue - and people have - that those are all very sensible things to base a player's valuation on, but the fact is, there isn't a club in the real world who would sell Leozinho for less than £25m in this same situation. (And honestly, I'd be looking for closer to £40m).

The problem this causes is that it's impossible to do the 'real world thing' and not have your player get royally pissed off at you. And this isn't even the most egregious example from my save at the moment.

My players are all replaceable if the right bid comes in, but because the rules aren't applied evenly, I'd have to go and spend £10m to replace Leozinho with a player I'd be receiving bids of £5m for before the end of the season. 

It's the kind of thing that makes every single transfer window sap my enthusiasm, because despite having more money than the GDP of some small nations, I'm fighting to break even on transfers. 

 

And it's also really frustrating because I do think transfers have improved in FM24. So having to deal with this idiocy for yet another year is disappointing. 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

And I do realise that the club reputation is probably the biggest factor here. Another thing SI have failed to sort out in years. Here's our performance in the UCL over the last few seasons to show why we shouldn't be sandwiched between Lokomotiv Moscow and Qarabag on the 'Reputation' list.

 

 

Well said. Not sure why some users are being so argumentative.

 

You signed a player for £16m. You developed him and he has proved his worth. £16m should be the minimum a team is offering.

 

£1.2m is like you say, laughably low.

 

Not sure how some people defend this when you have made a valid point.

 

The fact you are a small club in a league with low rep is irrelevant in this instance due to the development and historical fee of the player 

[-Jef-]

I have a center back that was bought IRL for 2m and he's valued at about 1.5-3m in-game which I'd say is below what I'd sell for. Hoffenheim came in with a bid at 1.2m which I didn't even consider. He threw a fit and I said Hoffenheim lowballed me and I will accept a higher offer. We came to an agrement of 5.75m€

 

[lahnim]

@turnip Checkout Davincid's "Increase Realism" Pack over at the Editor's Hideaway. His files for fm2024 are not yet out, but it think it will be out eventually. Here's a paragraph on his description of one of the features of the mod regarding transfer fees from fm2023. 

Market values
Market values have been adjusted globally to more realistically represent the effective transfer fees paid in nation XY. The market values in larger nations like England are sometimes way too high. (Many players in the range 100-200€m). This was also lowered. The higher reputation of younger players will boost those values a bit again.

[Spallo]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb trevjim:

Well said. Not sure why some users are being so argumentative.

 

You signed a player for £16m. You developed him and he has proved his worth. £16m should be the minimum a team is offering.

 

£1.2m is like you say, laughably low.

You clearly didnt see the actual 9m Fee ...

 

That said - I dont rly get the point here. The game does a rly good job at reflecting player market values and the actual transfer behaviour of clubs. And it does this since ages ago with inceasing realism. Personally for me your situation is, albeit not quite, relatively realistic because of the already said reasons.

 

Are the figures you getting to low? Probably - but def not by a wide margin. Exspecting 40m and higher fee´s in Hungary after a few years moderate too good sucess in the CL is the unrealistic thing to me here. And I ignore, for your own sake, that you use the editor to get information you should not have (its your game, but I dont appriciate such things very much). So what the first replie stated is more than true - you want a fee that you know is fair, where the AI cant know this for sure. I concede, that the int. performances (if they are above 7 or maybe 7.1 on avg.) should get you a bit more - lets say 25m - but thats it. 

 

And you are already winning (albeit it by cheating) in terms of gaming - so why do you even complain?

 

Edit: And, if I may ad ... you are no Ajax - not even close. Ajax has way higher reputation than your club and would have by miles in rl-life for ten or more years, even if you get more advanced in the CL. The Eredevise is clearly a better league and Ajax has way more competition than you for the season. I assume after that few years your league doesnt have smbd like PSV or Feyenoord or even close to that. So your analogy is completely pointless. 

And - you took a risk with your 16m signing, which in rl life the outlets in Hungary would gone crazy of. Perform well the next ten years and you get "your realism"!

Edited November 12, 2023 by Spallo

[eXistenZ]

AI lowballing you constantly but expecting you to pay a kings ransom has been in the game for years and its a very valid point you make.  My personal opinion is that they just throw it in as an artificial difficulty setting (its either that or admit reputation is completly s***ting over everything). The valuations might only be described as "indicative" and "shouldnt be taken at facevalue', but the AI surely does. yes playing in just hungary, but a regular CL knockout contender should have some weight. That you used the editor to know his PA is borderline irrelevant. The player has lost a third of his transfer fee when he obviously hasnt

 

And the absurdity gets compounded even more when you list a player, he gets mad about the asking price and asks to lower it, and in the end you settle on a price thats higher. but hey, there is at least facepaint

[Cobblers]

@ OP, that's a maddening situation you find yourself in right there. I too would equally be annoyed by it.

Though I'm yet to buy FM24 (may wait for sale next year), this isn't a new problem like you suggested.

In the real world that player would go for more than his original purchase price - so 110% you are spot on with your opinion.

 

[Dadecane]

Forget what hes worth in real life. Its a video game, hes a relatively unknown in real life. 
 

so in s video game u went and paid 16m por a player valued at no more than 10m, and now youre mad cuz teams wont offer more…the 10 hes worth?

 

looks like bad management, nothing wrong w the game, you made a terrible signing and way overpaid. 

[eXistenZ]

1 hour ago, Dadecane said:

Forget what hes worth in real life. Its a video game, hes a relatively unknown in real life. 
 

so in s video game u went and paid 16m por a player valued at no more than 10m, and now youre mad cuz teams wont offer more…the 10 hes worth?

 

looks like bad management, nothing wrong w the game, you made a terrible signing and way overpaid. 

Well, since he's a regen, its pretty obvious he is unknown in real life....

we dont know if OP overpaid, because he hasnt disclosed what the game valued him at the moment of purchase. Porbably he has overpaid yes, as it its often the only way to do bussines with this AI.

 

Even if he has overpaid, thats fairly irrelevant. OP isnt the asking party, Juventus is clearly interested to use him as an important player, the player is performing well on a high (although not elite atm) level, he has a fair amount of years left on his contract, is young and has very likely potential to grow into. The AI coming with an offer that just matches his valuation, is just insulting and immersion breaking. He is being asked to make a loss for no good reason

Imagine a guy ringing your doorbell and going "hey bud,  i see youve got a lovely house here, in a very nice neighbourhood and obviously set up for years to come. However, i think you overpaid, and I'll do you a favor by buying it from you for 2/3rds the price you paid for it"

Edited November 13, 2023 by eXistenZ

[LC15]

The problem here is that any league that starts FM with a lower rep compared to the big leagues will never catch up to the big leagues in terms of financial weight in the game. Sure the reputation might catch up, but the game will never treat the Hungarian division as on par with England, Spain, etc, financially. Prize money, tv revenue etc will never reach the heights of the big leagues and as such a club no matter how successful in those other leagues will never be able to compete financially. That's why the wages are lower, because there is no chance that his club could afford to pay 100k+ wages to each of his main players, probably not even 50k+. It would make a loss season on season. That means that big clubs will take notice of the players playing far below the wages that 'should' be being offered for a player of their ability and become interested en masse - pressuring both the players and the club into a selling position. In the same way no matter how much you raise the hungarian division's rep or your club rep, the valuations will never catch up to those it becomes on par with, which isn't realistic - as if that fantasy scenario unfolded in real life, all of those elements would increase to a significant degree.

 

For those who feel the valuations are in line with reality - and above hungarian transfer records - that's the problem, in reality the hungarian league is not a good league, in his game it's likely improved drastically - so it should be treated on par with the leagues around it. The valuations of a club that competes regularly in the champions league, and reaches the knockouts regularly likewise should have player values more closely aligned with similarly successful teams. This just seems common sense to me. I've had the same problem in past editions of FM taking Melgar in Peru to regular Copa Libertadores winners and the best team in south america - or Aalst in Belgium to one of the best teams in the world, CL winners, etc, but the values and financial power of both of these teams never caught up to the top leagues in those continents. 

 

Ultimately the game seems hard coded to remember the league's starting rep rather than dynamically adjusting to realistically represent the changes that can happen in game. 

Edited November 13, 2023 by LC15

[Nacaw]

4 hours ago, LC15 said:

The problem here is that any league that starts FM with a lower rep compared to the big leagues will never catch up to the big leagues in terms of financial weight in the game. Sure the reputation might catch up, but the game will never treat the Hungarian division as on par with England, Spain, etc, financially. Prize money, tv revenue etc will never reach the heights of the big leagues and as such a club no matter how successful in those other leagues will never be able to compete financially. That's why the wages are lower, because there is no chance that his club could afford to pay 100k+ wages to each of his main players, probably not even 50k+. It would make a loss season on season. That means that big clubs will take notice of the players playing far below the wages that 'should' be being offered for a player of their ability and become interested en masse - pressuring both the players and the club into a selling position. In the same way no matter how much you raise the hungarian division's rep or your club rep, the valuations will never catch up to those it becomes on par with, which isn't realistic - as if that fantasy scenario unfolded in real life, all of those elements would increase to a significant degree.

 

For those who feel the valuations are in line with reality - and above hungarian transfer records - that's the problem, in reality the hungarian league is not a good league, in his game it's likely improved drastically - so it should be treated on par with the leagues around it. The valuations of a club that competes regularly in the champions league, and reaches the knockouts regularly likewise should have player values more closely aligned with similarly successful teams. This just seems common sense to me. I've had the same problem in past editions of FM taking Melgar in Peru to regular Copa Libertadores winners and the best team in south america - or Aalst in Belgium to one of the best teams in the world, CL winners, etc, but the values and financial power of both of these teams never caught up to the top leagues in those continents. 

 

Ultimately the game seems hard coded to remember the league's starting rep rather than dynamically adjusting to realistically represent the changes that can happen in game. 

You call this a problem. To me, that's the essence of FM, it's designed to be this way. No matter how much they promote improved league dynamics, there is no version of FM where you end up with the Greek and Turkish leagues dominating Europe. 500 years in the future, nothing really changes. You can fight against it as the user, but there's really only so much you can do because you're fighting against the game itself. I think FM simply doesn't want to create crazy scenarios where the game world changes in a huge way, which to me isn't a problem.

 

To the OP: It seems you've only made 3 CL appearances. It generally takes about 10 years of steady results for club rep and league rep to improve to where you get "fair" values. After playing 15 seasons in the Danish league, I now have 18 players worth £40m+ and 5 players worth £100m+. I'm paying roughly the wages of a low/midsize PL club (wages have a big effect on value). The league itself has grown to the 4th best in Europe with 4 CL spots, but my team is still the only team listed above 3½ star reputation. You need years of better CL results to improve transfer values, but they do improve, eventually.  

[LC15]

10 minutes ago, Nacaw said:

You call this a problem. To me, that's the essence of FM, it's designed to be this way. No matter how much they promote improved league dynamics, there is no version of FM where you end up with the Greek and Turkish leagues dominating Europe. 500 years in the future, nothing really changes. You can fight against it as the user, but there's really only so much you can do because you're fighting against the game itself. I think FM simply doesn't want to create crazy scenarios where the game world changes in a huge way, which to me isn't a problem.

 

To the OP: It seems you've only made 3 CL appearances. It generally takes about 10 years of steady results for club rep and league rep to improve to where you get "fair" values. After playing 15 seasons in the Danish league, I now have 18 players worth £40m+ and 5 players worth £100m+. I'm paying roughly the wages of a low/midsize PL club (wages have a big effect on value). The league itself has grown to the 4th best in Europe with 4 CL spots, but my team is still the only team listed above 3½ star reputation. You need years of better CL results to improve transfer values, but they do improve, eventually.  

You're definitely right, it is designed that way, to keep things in game as close to the real world as possible. For those of us that would like to take lower leagues and clubs and bring them to the same heights as the 5 big leagues and the Man City's, RM's, Munich's etc, that's a design element that restricts our ability to do that. For those people who play the big leagues and big clubs or simply are happy for the football world to stay more or less the same to RL across many many years of simulations, then it's not a problem. It's all about what someone wants out of the game. For me, those limits are a negative thing. For you not. For the OP, i think that design is a limiting factor in his ability to play a hungarian club and remain competitive with the wider footballing world.

[Nacaw]

3 minutes ago, LC15 said:

You're definitely right, it is designed that way, to keep things in game as close to the real world as possible. For those of us that would like to take lower leagues and clubs and bring them to the same heights as the 5 big leagues and the Man City's, RM's, Munich's etc, that's a design element that restricts our ability to do that. For those people who play the big leagues and big clubs or simply are happy for the football world to stay more or less the same to RL across many many years of simulations, then it's not a problem. It's all about what someone wants out of the game. For me, those limits are a negative thing. For you not. For the OP, i think that design is a limiting factor in his ability to play a hungarian club and remain competitive with the wider footballing world.

As I said, one of my recent saves has been 15 years in Denmark, and I have extensive experience managing in smaller European leagues, even outside the top divisions. I love managing small clubs/nations and bringing them to the top. But that things take time and the game world being somewhat static otherwise still isn't a problem for me. 

Design isn't the limiting factor for a Hungarian club. In fact, it's the design that makes it way way too easy to make European powerhouses in small leagues. 

[eXistenZ]

1 hour ago, Nacaw said:

As I said, one of my recent saves has been 15 years in Denmark, and I have extensive experience managing in smaller European leagues, even outside the top divisions. I love managing small clubs/nations and bringing them to the top. But that things take time and the game world being somewhat static otherwise still isn't a problem for me. 

Design isn't the limiting factor for a Hungarian club. In fact, it's the design that makes it way way too easy to make European powerhouses in small leagues. 

I dont question your experience with long term club saves and how fastor slow a club or league's reputation should grow to stay both realistic yet enjoyable is a difficult balance of numbers. no argument there.

For a moment ignore the league, ignore the player, ignore the value, etc... At the end, the AI asking him to make a loss on a player he hasnt put up for sale, has zero realism and serves no other purpose than to be an artificial difficulty barrier/poor design.

 

[Freakiie]

We're going a bit off topic here, but I do feel like people have way too high expectations what a single world class club would actually do for a domestic league/country. I haven't done it in recent versions, but in the past you could drag up a league quite a bit once your team started winning the CL, but in the end you still have just one club with massive reputation and a league that tends to hover from 5-8th place in the coefficient rankings, as the other clubs just come from too far away to be relevant in the CL in the short term. While the automatic CL qualification means some clubs will slowly start getting more income you're still dealing with the AI and they generally play it a lot more save than the user. Maybe if I had kept playing that save the CL wealth would've resulted in some teams in my league actually managing to win some European games, but at some point a save where the only relevant part are the CL KO stages got pretty boring and in the end you are competing with leagues that have multiple clubs that are as good as you and have a massive head start, it's hardly a surprise that you won't catch up to the PL all by yourself, although I did manage to beat France every now and then to become the final 4.5* rep league back then, with all the benefits that came along with that back in the day.

Back on topic, in real life clubs would be focused much more on the performance in the CL than the performance in their domestic league. So, players showing their stuff in the CL/EL/ECL/Euros/World Cup should be rated much closer to what a player playing in a high reputation league should be rated at if they're performing well. Considering the OPs players already have very high individual reputation them playing in the CL is clearly influential in that manner, so it shouldn't be that hard to also tie their values more closely to the CL reputation rather than the Hungarian domestic league.

 

[turnip]

I actually don't mind players having a valuation set by the game. The problem is that not only is the algorithm a black box, it doesn't seem to be nearly complex enough.*

Which is why you can end up in these daft situations. And I don't envy SI trying to come up with a way to make it better, but I really hope it's something they're looking at for FM25 because - as I've said - when you're a successful club in a small league, it can make transfer windows incredibly frustrating in a way that simply isn't any fun. And I've been playing these silly games for like 25 years at this point because: fun. So yeah, here's hoping. 

 

* -

Spoiler

The easiest way to make boatloads of money in the game (if you're not at a Premier League club) is to sell promising youngsters to Premier League teams (or a big European club) with a "+ 50% of Next Sale" clause, negotiating the actual cash value of the sale down as needed for the club to accept. Because the game is so predictable about how it assigns player values to Premier League youngsters (even pretty mediocre ones) that you can sell a player 'valued' at £4m for £2m up front and then get £15m a year later because his value has skyrocketed from warming the bench for Southampton's U-19s. Their value tends to drop rapidly after that first season if they're not playing somewhere, though. 

 

[JimmysTheBestCop]

I've did Hungary until 2050s in Fm23. It is completely based upon league Reputation. You can see it in the pre game editor. If you are a building a nation type of save there is a lot of stuff you have to mod before you start a save because once you get to top 10 leagues stuff just doesnt make much sense.

i would check out second yellow card video and discord they talk a lot about such things and did a huge deep dive for his Fm24 Malta save with lots of modding. Also this reddit post has a lot of info

https://www.reddit.com/r/footballmanagergames/comments/17q5pze/guide_how_to_get_a_dynamic_world_in_build_a_nation/

 

I know when I got Hungry top 10 then to #5 of course the player valuations were completely messed up. Easiest way to tell was to see what the Agent would say his client was happy with. It was often 3x-5x + higher then what was listed. And you could certainly gets teams to buy at that price. But it wouldnt stop the low ball offers based upon the default value.

To me now they import saves are a thing SI has to completely redo almost everything to make everything in the game dynamic or what is the point of playing 50+ years across 3 versions of FM. It should be a starting choice much like transfers are in FM24

Our World should be fully dynamic for people doing fantasy saves or build a nation saves or any of the crazy challenge stuff. A lot of times if you dont heavily mod this pre game it gets really boring when you are in top 10 and realize nothing in game changes and its like you are still ranked 145.

FULL DYNAMIC WORLD SI!!!!!!!!!!!!! LETS GO

FULL DYNAMIC WORLD SI!!!!!!!!!!!!! LETS GO

FULL DYNAMIC WORLD SI!!!!!!!!!!!!! LETS GO

[trevjim]

15 hours ago, JimmysTheBestCop said:

I've did Hungary until 2050s in Fm23. It is completely based upon league Reputation. You can see it in the pre game editor. If you are a building a nation type of save there is a lot of stuff you have to mod before you start a save because once you get to top 10 leagues stuff just doesnt make much sense.

i would check out second yellow card video and discord they talk a lot about such things and did a huge deep dive for his Fm24 Malta save with lots of modding. Also this reddit post has a lot of info

https://www.reddit.com/r/footballmanagergames/comments/17q5pze/guide_how_to_get_a_dynamic_world_in_build_a_nation/

 

I know when I got Hungry top 10 then to #5 of course the player valuations were completely messed up. Easiest way to tell was to see what the Agent would say his client was happy with. It was often 3x-5x + higher then what was listed. And you could certainly gets teams to buy at that price. But it wouldnt stop the low ball offers based upon the default value.

To me now they import saves are a thing SI has to completely redo almost everything to make everything in the game dynamic or what is the point of playing 50+ years across 3 versions of FM. It should be a starting choice much like transfers are in FM24

Our World should be fully dynamic for people doing fantasy saves or build a nation saves or any of the crazy challenge stuff. A lot of times if you dont heavily mod this pre game it gets really boring when you are in top 10 and realize nothing in game changes and its like you are still ranked 145.

FULL DYNAMIC WORLD SI!!!!!!!!!!!!! LETS GO

FULL DYNAMIC WORLD SI!!!!!!!!!!!!! LETS GO

FULL DYNAMIC WORLD SI!!!!!!!!!!!!! LETS GO

It's odd SI have saying the world is dynamic for 4? Versions now but it's really not

[whatsupdoc]

On 12/11/2023 at 01:25, turnip said:

I know that SI still have their immovable position that player valuations are just a guide - but they've never been just that, and it's been an issue for years. And it's never actually been addressed.

A case study.

This is Leozinho. He's my first-choice D(R) or WB(R), or Libero when we play with a Libero. We signed him a couple of years ago from Palmeiras; initially on a loan which we made permanent at the end of the season.

So far, we've had 18 months from him as a very good right-sided defender. 

Also, I have the Editor enabled for this save, so I know not only how well he plays for us, but his CA and PA too. His PA is very very good. Which is why I spent £16m to sign him. It's more than I usually spend at this sort of club, but we had the money, so I thought 'why not'.

But lots of teams want him. Specifically, at the moment, Juventus. And this isn't a random "let's see if we can unsettle him and get him cheap" deal - they really want him. 

So why, when I've spent £16m to sign him, we've got plenty of money, he's got two-and-a-half years left on his contract and is on the verge of a call-up to the Brazilian National Team, are Juventus throwing out insultingly low bids like this for him?

 

Oh yeah, it's because of that utterly arbitrary number the game's just slapped on the player by way of a 'Valuation' (see the first screenshot). Based on some combination of 'value left on contract', 'player reputation', 'club reputation' and 'league reputation'. You could argue - and people have - that those are all very sensible things to base a player's valuation on, but the fact is, there isn't a club in the real world who would sell Leozinho for less than £25m in this same situation. (And honestly, I'd be looking for closer to £40m).

The problem this causes is that it's impossible to do the 'real world thing' and not have your player get royally pissed off at you. And this isn't even the most egregious example from my save at the moment.

My players are all replaceable if the right bid comes in, but because the rules aren't applied evenly, I'd have to go and spend £10m to replace Leozinho with a player I'd be receiving bids of £5m for before the end of the season. 

It's the kind of thing that makes every single transfer window sap my enthusiasm, because despite having more money than the GDP of some small nations, I'm fighting to break even on transfers. 

 

And it's also really frustrating because I do think transfers have improved in FM24. So having to deal with this idiocy for yet another year is disappointing. 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

And I do realise that the club reputation is probably the biggest factor here. Another thing SI have failed to sort out in years. Here's our performance in the UCL over the last few seasons to show why we shouldn't be sandwiched between Lokomotiv Moscow and Qarabag on the 'Reputation' list.

 

 

Well said. 

[AndrikoDS]

For the OP it kind of makes sense - A young player in a middling league with just one continental class team, with interest only shown from one club who did at least offer a percentage of next sale clause. No matter who he is he's not going to get a huge offer in that situation. Imagine if Messi or someone (I don't follow football, fill in 'world's best player' of your choice here) has spent the first part of his career playing for Glasgow Rangers or something (which is perhaps being generous to the Hungarian division). Maybe if several teams want him, but in that case several have mentioned that in those cases the price gets driven up, and in this case maybe only Juventus need a player in that position, and maybe their scouting team don't have an editor to see just how good his potential is.

As for the world being too static, it makes sense enough if you think about it. England is a big rich country, so are France & Spain, they will always attract rich footballers and rich football clubs. For a small nation, the difficulty of making it 'big' is baked into it's size and geography. I could see the MLS becoming the biggest league in the world, but I doubt Hungary or Denmark or wherever ever could. Are the transfers unrealistic? Maybe, but it's also pretty unrealistic that a world class youngster would bury himself in Hungary, or that a non-league team will go from the VNS to the CL in 10 years playing in it's 6,000 seater stadium.

Not that some of the stuff that goes on in game isn't infuriating, it is. But it's a game and there is only so much the developers can do, especially whilst keeping it reasonably fun to play.

[GreenTriangle]

And what will happen if the game will be "fully dynamic"? The entire competition will become extremely rich and the club led by the human player will be able to buy everything it want, when it want and how it want. Very competitive, indeed. After which another conclusion will be reached : "yes, now the game is dynamic, but it's way too easy now". After that, the creation of difficulty levels will be requested. But the difficulty levels assume more restrictions, at which point the player who has reached a high level played with fewer restrictions will abandon simply because he'll discover that the rain of money doesn't help him as he expected.

[eXistenZ]

1 hour ago, AndrikoDS said:

For the OP it kind of makes sense - A young player in a middling league with just one continental class team, with interest only shown from one club who did at least offer a percentage of next sale clause. No matter who he is he's not going to get a huge offer in that situation. Imagine if Messi or someone (I don't follow football, fill in 'world's best player' of your choice here) has spent the first part of his career playing for Glasgow Rangers or something (which is perhaps being generous to the Hungarian division). Maybe if several teams want him, but in that case several have mentioned that in those cases the price gets driven up, and in this case maybe only Juventus need a player in that position, and maybe their scouting team don't have an editor to see just how good his potential is.

Ok lets take that real world example.

Rangers last sale of the transfer window was Glen Kamara(28), who they bought for around 50k 5y prior and sold to Leeds for 5M.

Now offcours, PL/championship money inflates this, but the original point stands. The AI asking you to break even on a player where you are not the asking party, is ludicrous. That has nothing to do with being in hungary, being able to see the potential or whatever.

If this transfer would have gone through, Juventus and MTK would probably be investigated by their respective FA's (kinda ironic its juventus, giving irl events).

And to people saying "you dont need to accept this offer", its borderline impossible to negotiate with the AI as they lock demands or blow up negotiations very fast

[AndrikoDS]

52 minutes ago, eXistenZ said:

Ok lets take that real world example.

Rangers last sale of the transfer window was Glen Kamara(28), who they bought for around 50k 5y prior and sold to Leeds for 5M.

Now offcours, PL/championship money inflates this, but the original point stands. The AI asking you to break even on a player where you are not the asking party, is ludicrous. That has nothing to do with being in hungary, being able to see the potential or whatever.

If this transfer would have gone through, Juventus and MTK would probably be investigated by their respective FA's (kinda ironic its juventus, giving irl events).

And to people saying "you dont need to accept this offer", its borderline impossible to negotiate with the AI as they lock demands or blow up negotiations very fast

Real world examples are a bit hard for me, I don't follow the game anymore, though it seems Kamara was a busted youth prospect by the time Rangers took a chance on him and re-found his potential before flipping him at the peak of his career to a Championship level team for a reasonable sum. In the OP's example, he has a world class youth prospect he paid 16million for, which in itself is arguably unrealistic for a team in Hungary.

From one perspective, the OP overpaid for a prospect, and depending on the stats the player has achieved in a mediocre division, might be worth 'only' 10 million to Juventus. Perhaps the OP just made a bad deal? It happens.

I also think the AI can be infuriating, but at the same time just because you think a player is worth a certain amount, it doesn't mean the AI must agree, just as in real life.

[kopfan1977]

4 minutes ago, AndrikoDS said:

Real world examples are a bit hard for me, I don't follow the game anymore, though it seems Kamara was a busted youth prospect by the time Rangers took a chance on him and re-found his potential before flipping him at the peak of his career to a Championship level team for a reasonable sum. In the OP's example, he has a world class youth prospect he paid 16million for, which in itself is arguably unrealistic for a team in Hungary.

From one perspective, the OP overpaid for a prospect, and depending on the stats the player has achieved in a mediocre division, might be worth 'only' 10 million to Juventus. Perhaps the OP just made a bad deal? It happens.

I also think the AI can be infuriating, but at the same time just because you think a player is worth a certain amount, it doesn't mean the AI must agree, just as in real life.

I've highlighted the part that I 1000% agree with. The AI is absolutely annoying to even negotiate with.

 

They could purchase a player, Never play him, Player gets listed at e.g 3 x what the club paid for him - Try lowballing the AI and you'll get laughed at. Yet it's ok for the AI to come in with lowball offers on unlisted players according to some people on here. 

 

Same goes for trying to negotiate a loan. Club have listed players for loan. So you do your homework, scout and assess the player in question. Come to the conclusion he would make a good addition to the club on loan. So you attempt to broker a loan. Club that wants a player to gain experience then tell you - Important player, Max wages for both playing/not playing and then tell you some silly fee like £250k p.m playing fee, £450k non playing fee. Plus they also want a one off fee for your club either 'Gaining promotion, Avoiding relegation or reaching a set stage in a club competition'.. You try and negotiate with them but their stance WILL NEVER change. Now reverse that role for the wonderkids you would like to gain experience and you either get no offers or AI wants him on loan without paying any wages, fee's and also want to include a mandatory purchase price that is lower than his 'Value'..

 

So yes, In my eyes something is definitely broken. In real life you would at least be able to reach some conclusion as to whether or not you pay a fee or a bonus for avoiding relegation etc.

Just as Juventus wouldn't be lowballing an offer for a star player of a team it would at least be a reasonable one.

[eXistenZ]

1 hour ago, AndrikoDS said:

Real world examples are a bit hard for me, I don't follow the game anymore, though it seems Kamara was a busted youth prospect by the time Rangers took a chance on him and re-found his potential before flipping him at the peak of his career to a Championship level team for a reasonable sum. In the OP's example, he has a world class youth prospect he paid 16million for, which in itself is arguably unrealistic for a team in Hungary.

From one perspective, the OP overpaid for a prospect, and depending on the stats the player has achieved in a mediocre division, might be worth 'only' 10 million to Juventus. Perhaps the OP just made a bad deal? It happens.

I also think the AI can be infuriating, but at the same time just because you think a player is worth a certain amount, it doesn't mean the AI must agree, just as in real life.

Ill repeat the same thing. Ignore the player, ignore the club, ignore the league, ignore the performances, ignore the potential overpaying.

 

its absolutly unhinged that the AI (juventus in this case) is asking him to make a loss on a player he has no intention of selling, or who isnt even close to the end of his contract. Transfer fees are openly communicated (most of the time). Juventus know what the OP paid for him. might be overspent, but nor the player, nor the club, would irl ever accept that the club gets actually worse of. Unless they are totally unhinged.

 

In this case, what should have happened is juventus going" i want to buy a rightback for max 10m, this player fits my criteria. Oh, he was bought for more than 10m, is first team at his club and a long running contract. 10m wont do, I'll look somewhere else". But because of poor programming we get this infuriating stuff. If you want a non transfer listed player from the AI, you will have to pay more than his ingame value, no matter what your reputation is. The reverse should be true as well

[turnip]

In my save, the DR in question stayed. Juve made a couple more slightly higher bids, then backed off and signed a worse DL from Chelsea for £32m. 

I had to sell 3 players for quite a lot less than I should have had to (but managed to stick healthy +% clauses onto them) and sent someone out on loan to Barcelona to shut him up for a bit because he was annoyed at me turning down bids of less than £3m. (Good enough to get game time with Barca... not worth spending more than £3m on )

 

I'm not a fan of the "it's not realistic for a small club to become a big team, so some parts of the game being silly is perfectly fine" argument, though. Being able to turn your local park team into a Champions League side is a huge part of what people play it for, and SI really lean into that with certain aspects of their marketing (even if they don't really test that kind of playstyle as much as they should). 

[JimmysTheBestCop]

7 hours ago, GreenTriangle said:

And what will happen if the game will be "fully dynamic"? The entire competition will become extremely rich and the club led by the human player will be able to buy everything it want, when it want and how it want. Very competitive, indeed. After which another conclusion will be reached : "yes, now the game is dynamic, but it's way too easy now". After that, the creation of difficulty levels will be requested. But the difficulty levels assume more restrictions, at which point the player who has reached a high level played with fewer restrictions will abandon simply because he'll discover that the rain of money doesn't help him as he expected.

 

Fm isn't difficult at all. In fact it's down right easy. Certain scenarios can however be very challenging. But it's mostly because it takes real life time and dedication to pull them off 

Nothing can stop a human from accomplishing anything in FM given enough real world time. 

 

The dynamic world should be an option for long term save players after 30 years the current FM design can't handle it. The in game universe sucks. 

It's a big reason why the realism mod is so popular with long term save players. You need it or the world gets messed up and stale. 

But the realism mod still can't rewrite FM mechanics. For something to be imported the world needs to be fully dynamic and influenced by the human player. 

Now this doesn't have to be easy and it could even be very time consuming. But it needs be an option or there is 0 reason to import. 

[GreenTriangle]

Yes, I know. It doesn't matter how you play, it's enough to open FM to start winning. It doesn't even require any effort. And, indeed, a league in which money flows from all directions will be much more difficult than one in which it is necessary for the player to predict the effectiveness of each transfer he makes.

[zsolt86]

Your players at least get rated around 8-10mil. All my player's price is sealed to 2.5mill, is not going above that not even a penny. I've been managing Ferencvaros for 6 seasons, being in Champions League groups every year and recently made it to the Europa League semifinals. It wouldn't be a problem, if Premier League teams would not come with some really ridicolously low offers and then my players become unsettled. Doesn't make sense that a player is unsettled become I'm not accepting a 1,6mill offer for him. Funny part is that once they are transferred to PL, their value jumps over 20mill. All ********, no way anyone can explain the poor quality of the game engine in this aspect.

To give you an exact idea, look at my squad, look at Solanke's value (yes that's that Solanke). Top 2 players were purchased for over 7mill (first 11mill second 7mill).

[XaW]

31 minutes ago, zsolt86 said:

Your players at least get rated around 8-10mil. All my player's price is sealed to 2.5mill, is not going above that not even a penny. I've been managing Ferencvaros for 6 seasons, being in Champions League groups every year and recently made it to the Europa League semifinals. It wouldn't be a problem, if Premier League teams would not come with some really ridicolously low offers and then my players become unsettled. Doesn't make sense that a player is unsettled become I'm not accepting a 1,6mill offer for him. Funny part is that once they are transferred to PL, their value jumps over 20mill. All ********, no way anyone can explain the poor quality of the game engine in this aspect.

To give you an exact idea, look at my squad, look at Solanke's value (yes that's that Solanke). Top 2 players were purchased for over 7mill (first 11mill second 7mill).

Had a look at Transfermarkt to see what transfers usually go for in Hungary and looked at Ferencvaros specifically. The highest transfer OUT for the club that I could find was Besic to Everton back in 2014/15 for £4.8m. I also found one more for £4.5m this season, but other than that I don't think I saw many over even £2.5m. So if that is the base of the league, then I'd say it seems reasonable.

And most players will have artificially high value in England, have you seen the dross that gets bought for millions there in recent years?

The game tries to mirror that as closely as possible to real life, but of course it can be wrong. If you think you have examples of it, report it in the bug tracker. Based on what I can see from this single screenshot, it doesn't look to bad for me, but it could be more than that and if so, then a bug report is the way to get it improved.

[zsolt86]

2 hours ago, XaW said:

Had a look at Transfermarkt to see what transfers usually go for in Hungary and looked at Ferencvaros specifically. The highest transfer OUT for the club that I could find was Besic to Everton back in 2014/15 for £4.8m. I also found one more for £4.5m this season, but other than that I don't think I saw many over even £2.5m. So if that is the base of the league, then I'd say it seems reasonable.

And most players will have artificially high value in England, have you seen the dross that gets bought for millions there in recent years?

The game tries to mirror that as closely as possible to real life, but of course it can be wrong. If you think you have examples of it, report it in the bug tracker. Based on what I can see from this single screenshot, it doesn't look to bad for me, but it could be more than that and if so, then a bug report is the way to get it improved.

Pointless to compare the real situation of the team in 2014-15 and the state of my team in FM. As said, I played in the group stage of CL in 6 seasons in a row, I played an Europa League quarter final and an Europa League semi-final. My team currently is 22 in the club coefficient ranking. If real life worked like this, then teams like Dinamo Zagreb, Dinamo Kiev or Sahtior Donetk would have no value and players like Mudryk or Dani Olmo would not exist at the highest level. In real life Denis Man(who in my opinion is not a Seria A level player) was sold for more to Parma by FCSB, than Solanke by me to Norwich. I understand why players are more valued in the Premier League, but before I signed Solanke, his value was around 12mill, straight after I signed him that was cut to 2mill, after selling him (I sold him for 6.75mill after around 10 negotiations), it jumped back to over 20mill. We are talking about the same player, this is non sense. If for some reason in real life Solanke decided to play for an East European country now, I'm sure his value wouldn't be affected that much. Good example for this is the Saudi Pro League, all the guys who went there did not lose their value. Not sure if my concern is clear enough here, some improvements need to be done about this .Probably it's not a bug, the way how this algorithm was built is just wrong, and after a while is disappointing that you try build up something with a smaller club, but it's impossible.

[Costav]

On 18/05/2024 at 19:55, zsolt86 said:

In real life Denis Man(who in my opinion is not a Seria A level player) was sold for more to Parma by FCSB, than Solanke by me to Norwich

I don't think this is comparable. When Denis Man was bought by Parma he was a young (20 y.o.) with very good potential, sold for 11M. Here you are discussing about Solanke (27 y.o.) which is at the best of its potential (i.e. in time, it could only worsening).

Market value depends on several factors, that's because 1M in Hungary has not (proportionally) the same value in England.

On 18/05/2024 at 19:55, zsolt86 said:

Good example for this is the Saudi Pro League, all the guys who went there did not lose their value

Although it is not completely true (malcom 60M fee - valuable 45M now on TransferMarkt; Neymar 90M fee - 45M now; Otavio 60M fee, 30M now; etc...), I would not take it as an example. Saudi Pro League offered very high wages to players that are "old" (or, over 30 y.o., besides gabri vega and few other exceptions). The likelihood that European clubs would have gained the same amount of money for those players is very low. 

 

On 18/05/2024 at 19:55, zsolt86 said:

Probably it's not a bug, the way how this algorithm was built is just wrong, and after a while is disappointing that you try build up something with a smaller club

Some can state that you are wrong here. I don't mean to attack you, of course. I am just trying to make you see things from another point of view.

As an example, PSG is always winning la LIgue1 and arriving at the final stages of the UCL. However, beside Verratti and Neymar, they sold a lot of players at less than 15M. Following your reasoning, they should be sold at, at least, the double, because such players were title winners, UCL semi-final players, etc...
 

To conclude, market value includes lot of parameters, and the fact that you participated to the UCL group stage every year can be mainly given to "internal poor" competition (IRL Ferencvaros won the last 6 tournaments) and to the fact that, even if you have a low european ranking as a league, opponents during preliminary rounds may be not as good as your team is. In addition to this, it is also rational to consider that poorer countries will receive lower offers (1M in Hungary has not the same value in England in real terms). However, you can decide not to sell your players, and trying (in the long term, which is at least 8/9 years) to make all the hungarian football movement grow up (in terms of reputation).

[turnip]

PSG is a clown show and using them as an example of anything other than "how not to run a football club" is a bad idea.

I haven't touched this save for a long time because I've been enjoying my other save, but here we go. As a club, we have £314m in the bank with a transfer budget of £140m. We've made £120m net from transfers this season. 

Viktor was signed for his MFRC of £725k from Helsingborgs in the summer. He played all 8 games in the Champions League Group Stage, getting 3 Assists, 1 Goal and an average rating of 7.53 in those matches. In real life, with performances like that against Atletico Madrid, AC Milan, Real Madrid, PSG, Stuttgart, Club Brugge and Schalke, he would be being talked up as one of the best young midfielders on the planet. I expect to get bids of around £5m in the summer for him. 

At 18 years old, Erik Valencsik has 18 caps and 5 goals for a Hungary team who've had quite possibly the worst manager in their history. He has 3 goals and 3 assists in 7 Champions League matches so far this season, with an Average Rating of 7.3. Newcastle offered £3.5m for him in the January transfer window. 

Diego Villalba is a goalkeeper whose only flaw is a better First Touch than half the real-life keepers in the Premier League. He's a couple of weeks away from getting his Hungarian nationality and therefore an EU passport. He's one of the best young goalkeepers in the world. Porto bid £12,25m for him in January. 

Pedro Hernandez is a centre-back with no flaws, other than being average at Passing. As he is, he'd be a reliable 3rd centre-back for any top team in Europe playing with a back four, and that ignores the fact he's accomplished as a DR and WB/R. Dortmund offered £9.5m for him in January.

 

Transfer Values are broken.

[Costav]

7 hours ago, turnip said:

Transfer Values are broken

Did you report all these examples in the bug report forum? 
 

As @XaW said..."it doesn't look to bad for me, but it could be more than that and if so, then a bug report is the way to get it improved"

[NineCloudNine]

9 hours ago, turnip said:

Transfer Values are broken.

Your evidence for this statement includes an offer for one of your players which is roughly double the record transfer fee ever paid to a Hungarian club.
 

[kevhamster]

The transfer value thing works both ways though.

In my first season in the Premier League following promotion with Blackburn, I bought two wonderkids (actually listed as wonderkids in game).

One from Argentina for £6.5m, with a PA of 177 and one from Portugal with a PA of 166 for £5m.  Can't remember their exact CA when signed, but both were over 140 then and are both over 150 now as the next season begins,

I then bought one from Colombia in the summer before my second season for £3.5m, and he has CA of 150 and PA of 179.

Edited May 21 by kevhamster

[wazzaflow10]

15 hours ago, turnip said:

Transfer Values are broken.

On the flip side of this is if you were playing as a big club would you pay £75M for a player in a Hungarian league? Even if they did the impossible and won the CL no team would smash the Hungarian transfer record 16x over. Getting ~3x the transfer record in £12M+ is a testament to 1) how good the player is and 2) the recognition that there is some growth from the baseline values in the game that recognize the improvement in team/league status.

5 years of success isn't nearly long enough to break the normal balance of the world to start commanding top fees up front. There's inherently too much risk involved in the real world of signing players from lower tiered leagues. The game has to represent that risk somehow. A few successful champions league matches would indeed improve a player's profile but not nearly to the degree that it overwhelms the fact that they play in the Hungarian league regularly. The game would quickly become unbalanced if short trends caused massive changes in reputation. One could even argue that despite the success of Man City over the past decade they're still not nearly as popular as Liverpool, Man Utd and Arsenal. What chance does a small team from Hungary have in five years to become a global powerhouse?

The challenge you're having in game is you're looking at values the computer can't and you know the current attributes with certainty. If you didn't know either with 100% accuracy you'd be more cautious about signing players from lower reputation leagues as a big club as well as cash in on players who are performing at a high enough level to get 3x the league transfer record as a lower tiered club.

[deltasfd11]

Em 11/11/2023 em 14:25, turnip disse:

I know that SI still have their immovable position that player valuations are just a guide - but they've never been just that, and it's been an issue for years. And it's never actually been addressed.

A case study.

This is Leozinho. He's my first-choice D(R) or WB(R), or Libero when we play with a Libero. We signed him a couple of years ago from Palmeiras; initially on a loan which we made permanent at the end of the season.

So far, we've had 18 months from him as a very good right-sided defender. 

Also, I have the Editor enabled for this save, so I know not only how well he plays for us, but his CA and PA too. His PA is very very good. Which is why I spent £16m to sign him. It's more than I usually spend at this sort of club, but we had the money, so I thought 'why not'.

But lots of teams want him. Specifically, at the moment, Juventus. And this isn't a random "let's see if we can unsettle him and get him cheap" deal - they really want him. 

So why, when I've spent £16m to sign him, we've got plenty of money, he's got two-and-a-half years left on his contract and is on the verge of a call-up to the Brazilian National Team, are Juventus throwing out insultingly low bids like this for him?

 

Oh yeah, it's because of that utterly arbitrary number the game's just slapped on the player by way of a 'Valuation' (see the first screenshot). Based on some combination of 'value left on contract', 'player reputation', 'club reputation' and 'league reputation'. You could argue - and people have - that those are all very sensible things to base a player's valuation on, but the fact is, there isn't a club in the real world who would sell Leozinho for less than £25m in this same situation. (And honestly, I'd be looking for closer to £40m).

The problem this causes is that it's impossible to do the 'real world thing' and not have your player get royally pissed off at you. And this isn't even the most egregious example from my save at the moment.

My players are all replaceable if the right bid comes in, but because the rules aren't applied evenly, I'd have to go and spend £10m to replace Leozinho with a player I'd be receiving bids of £5m for before the end of the season. 

It's the kind of thing that makes every single transfer window sap my enthusiasm, because despite having more money than the GDP of some small nations, I'm fighting to break even on transfers. 

 

And it's also really frustrating because I do think transfers have improved in FM24. So having to deal with this idiocy for yet another year is disappointing. 

 

  Mostrar conteúdo oculto

And I do realise that the club reputation is probably the biggest factor here. Another thing SI have failed to sort out in years. Here's our performance in the UCL over the last few seasons to show why we shouldn't be sandwiched between Lokomotiv Moscow and Qarabag on the 'Reputation' list.

 

 

it will not be fixed.

fm24 is done...

its ruins all saves, when teams come with proposals for the players and on small clubs you are forced to sell or keep a player sabotaging the team...

its ruined me several long term saves

remember that fm2020 had realistic values, back then it was possible to buy top players, now its ridiculous.

also on current update, teams keep asking for more and more despite you offer what they want.

its terrible having the best wonderkids and be forced to sell for low values because of this issues

[turnip]

13 hours ago, NineCloudNine said:

Your evidence for this statement includes an offer for one of your players which is roughly double the record transfer fee ever paid to a Hungarian club.
 

>90% of the things that happen in Football Manager, where a player is involved, are unrealistic.

Do we prevent teams from the Vanarama North/South from ever reaching the Premier League because it's never happened in real life before? No.

Do we ever see teams from San Marino reaching the Group Stages of the Champions League? No. 

Hell, have PSG ever won the Champions League? No.

 

So why is it somehow unrealistic and stupid to want AI-managed teams to put in appropriate bids for players?

[NineCloudNine]

7 hours ago, turnip said:

>90% of the things that happen in Football Manager, where a player is involved, are unrealistic.

Do we prevent teams from the Vanarama North/South from ever reaching the Premier League because it's never happened in real life before? No.

Do we ever see teams from San Marino reaching the Group Stages of the Champions League? No. 

Hell, have PSG ever won the Champions League? No.

 

So why is it somehow unrealistic and stupid to want AI-managed teams to put in appropriate bids for players?

So because other unrealistic things happen, you want transfer bids to be unrealistic too? 

[Costav]

11 hours ago, deltasfd11 said:

remember that fm2020 had realistic values, back then it was possible to buy top players, now its ridiculous.

Which team are you?
What is your budget?
Where do you want to buy players from?

IRL is difficult to buy top players too, because Premier League teams are way richer than other european clubs. In addition to this, if you consider buying top players when you are not a top team, I think this is exactly what a Football game needs to replicate. IRL there are no such transfers (Mbappe is leaving PSG to go to Reak Madrid, not a "Ï arrived in the semifinal of Europa League three times" club).

 

11 hours ago, deltasfd11 said:

also on current update, teams keep asking for more and more despite you offer what they want.

I figured out it depends mainly by two factors: (i) Market value doesn't align with the price evaluation of the owner team; (ii) the kind of offer you make (or, better, the discount rate of your offer).

Let me expand these concepts:

i) The fact that the market value is X does not mean that a team will sell the player for that price. Of course, this is an indication of the value of the player, and usually the owner clubs follow those values. However, if you think about it, when a club would like to buy your players you may want to ask an higher price because the player is so valuable for you. That's exactly what happens with AI clubs.

ii) If you pay everything cash and at the moment you buy the player, your money have a value. If you want to pay in 3 annual installments, adding bonuses etc...your offer cannot be considered at the same level of one offer giving all money in one solution. This is basic economics. 10M now values more than 10M divided in time. That's why if you make offers including installments and/or bonuses, they will be weighted less than other offers with the same amount.

Edited May 22 by Costav

[whatsupdoc]

Immediately post signing player's valuations seem to skyrocket. Signed this guy on a free in the Champo and he went up to over 40m pounds immediately.