Football Manager 2024 Official Feedback Thread

[El Payaso]

On 15/05/2024 at 11:21, andu1 said:

Can the 3-4-2-1 formation that Leverkusen used all season be improved in FM25?

Right now any AI team that uses this system is crippled by the lack of movement of the front 3 and the 2 wingbacks... It's one of the worst AI formations in FM24...

These kind of things always make you think that the game doesn't treat the AI the same way it does the human players. I have also seen AI using tactics (or just selection of roles) that have "nothing wrong in them" but still underperforming. And then on the other hand human players are able to use tactics that make no sense at all (like me with Palermo) and still do well. 

I know that SI have said that the game treats both human players and the AI equally but I don't see this being the case based on my own experience. 

[themadsheep2001]

13 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Newcastle 3-4-2-1 I just went up against, nothing wrong with this kind of setup from the AI. Both wingbacks as CWB, two WCBs + a BPD, Samardzic AP, Gordan AM, Isak AF. It's run by a Xabi Alonso who has imported his Leverkusen style 3-4-2-1 to Newcastle. Livramento came on for Trippier mid match for a flying aggressive right wingback. 

They're competing for European spots and won the Europa League with Newcastle his first season in charge. 

t

Pretty much what you expect then. Humans are just much better (or should be, certainly not always) and being able to balance setups and adjust accordingly. 

[El Payaso]

46 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Pretty much what you expect then. Humans are just much better (or should be, certainly not always) and being able to balance setups and adjust accordingly. 

This is an interesting claim. Based on what? What do you think the AI is usually doing wrong if they are able to pick a good selection of roles? 

 

[Cloud9]

9 hours ago, El Payaso said:

This is an interesting claim. Based on what? What do you think the AI is usually doing wrong if they are able to pick a good selection of roles? 

 

Most notably on FM24 a human player is able to take advantage of positional play to deal with the opposition's setup. The AI is more reactive than previous versions but the PP changes are slightly overturned and certainly hand the advantage to a player who understands how roles perform.

However, the point is that the 3-4-2-1 isn't something the AI struggles with in particular and that the AI is performing just fine with it (in selection and results, Europa League + challenging for European spots with Newcastle is not an underperformance from the AI). It's worth noting that the Eddie Howe was sacked from underperforming with the same squad of players utilizing a 4-3-3. 

A knowledgeable human player can set up a tactic better than the AI, squad build better than the AI, man manage better than the AI, and make in match changes better than the AI. 

11 hours ago, El Payaso said:

I know that SI have said that the game treats both human players and the AI equally but I don't see this being the case based on my own experience. 

There is no anti or pro player bias in the game. 

Edited May 17 by Cloud9

[Svenc]

11 hours ago, El Payaso said:

These kind of things always make you think that the game doesn't treat the AI the same way it does the human players. I have also seen AI using tactics (or just selection of roles) that have "nothing wrong in them" but still underperforming. And then on the other hand human players are able to use tactics that make no sense at all (like me with Palermo) and still do well. 

 

AI managers have never been like: "This is my tacticz". They've picked their stuff according to opposition (or targeted scoreline), current scoreline in a match and traits edited into the db. I still remember on FM 2016 or thereabouts Guardiola was pretty underperforming with a then hugely dominating Bayern squad in the Bundesliga. Sure, he may have won the thing more oftenly. But still, if you'd simulate lots of seasons (full match details), you'd oft see him losing 7, 8 matches and struggling to score ~60 goals. Looking upon the matches and the changes, he frequently left Lewandowski completely isolated as the lone FWD off a 4-1-4-1 formation and left to rot. If things didn't work out by HT, he changed formation entirelly, which made him still getting results more often than not.

[El Payaso]

2 hours ago, Svenc said:

 

AI managers have never been like: "This is my tacticz". They've picked their stuff according to opposition (or targeted scoreline), current scoreline in a match and traits edited into the db. I still remember on FM 2016 or thereabouts Guardiola was pretty underperforming with a then hugely dominating Bayern squad in the Bundesliga. Sure, he may have won the thing more oftenly. But still, if you'd simulate lots of seasons (full match details), you'd oft see him losing 7, 8 matches and struggling to score ~60 goals. Looking upon the matches and the changes, he frequently left Lewandowski completely isolated as the lone FWD off a 4-1-4-1 formation and left to rot. If things didn't work out by HT, he changed formation entirelly, which made him still getting results more often than not.

Remember that more than well. I think it was also a fairly difficult tactic to play against. 0-0 was easily the most likely result. 

I know there are many moving pieces but in general: if the game treats human players equally compared to the AI, then why are human players able to be get away with totally stupid tactical choices while AI managers struggle even with tactics that seem to make perfect sense? This is something that doesn't add up to me. 

[Rodrigogc]

20 minutos atrás, El Payaso disse:

 

I know there are many moving pieces but in general: if the game treats human players equally compared to the AI, then why are human players able to be get away with totally stupid tactical choices while AI managers struggle even with tactics that seem to make perfect sense? This is something that doesn't add up to me. 

Because the game is made for humans, and people have to succeed at it to have the dopamine boost that makes them feel buying the game was worth their money and, hence, keep buying. In the end it is just a game and most people would not buy it if they faced an AI that is equal or stronger than them. Very few people (I include myself in this group), would buy the game if it is as hard as it can be. 

[santy001]

Pushing a game system to its limits and finding oddities that work within it is par for the course for any game. 

[kiwityke1983]

On 16/05/2024 at 23:56, Nick_CB said:

 I had a player on loan and was using him as IW in the position agreed in his loan contract and respecting his playing time. However, this contract also required (I don't know why or why this is necessary) that he play as a Winger instead of IW.
His team's coach caught my attention because I wasn't using his player in the best way, as he was doing very well as an IW, I said that it didn't matter since he was playing. The coach got angry and asked the player back.
 I am unable to cancel the option of not letting the original team ask for the player back, I am obliged to put in a position and ROLE that the GAME forces me to do.
SI needs to review these interactions and the way in which the contract, especially the loan contract, is drawn up. Immersion in FM 24 is completely ridiculous due to these problems generated by interactions.

This is entirely your own fault for not taking the role out in the initial loan agreement. 

Clubs will pretty much always agree but might demand more wages or loan fee as a result because they want to develop the player to fit their squad not yours.

It's entirely realistic.

[lied90]

On 17/05/2024 at 09:27, El Payaso said:

These kind of things always make you think that the game doesn't treat the AI the same way it does the human players. I have also seen AI using tactics (or just selection of roles) that have "nothing wrong in them" but still underperforming. And then on the other hand human players are able to use tactics that make no sense at all (like me with Palermo) and still do well. 

I know that SI have said that the game treats both human players and the AI equally but I don't see this being the case based on my own experience. 

TI's>roles

Poor AI has no idea what works.

[whatsupdoc]

On 17/05/2024 at 04:08, Cloud9 said:

Newcastle 3-4-2-1 I just went up against, nothing wrong with this kind of setup from the AI. Both wingbacks as CWB, two WCBs + a BPD, Samardzic AP, Gordan AM, Isak AF. It's run by a Xabi Alonso who has imported his Leverkusen style 3-4-2-1 to Newcastle. Livramento came on for Trippier mid match for a flying aggressive right wingback. 

They're competing for European spots and won the Europa League with Newcastle his first season in charge. 

t

 

I hope that fm25 is better balanced in terms of the inherent strength of different formations. Annoying to see city inevitably drop down the table partly because 433 isn't working as well as double DM systems for example. 

[rushdengooner]

Long time player of the CM/FM series.

My enjoyment of this year's edition has been the lowest in a long time.

I'm sick of the issues in this year's game, which SI just don't seem to want to fix with the new FM25 coming out. Just some of my gripes listed below;

1. The whole squad demanding new contracts after you win a promotion.

Even players who aren't good enough to make the step up and have played little in the promotion winning season come moaning about wanting new deals and then upset the whole morale of the squad if they don't get their way. The overreactions with the player - manager communication is so annoying.

2. The amount of disallowed goals, especially when VAR is in play in the PL. Had some frustrating disallowed goals in L1/Championship, but once you get to the PL, it's on another level.

Screenshot attached to give an example and this isn't a one-off.

3. The lack of job offers.

I've took Derby from League 1 to the Premier League in 2 years. Then finished 8th in first season and 3rd in second PL season, getting into the CL. 

Had ZERO job offers or interviews. Totally unrealistic. You can't have a career save on this game. IRL, that sort of success would have you linked with bigger clubs in the PL and abroad. This part of the game seems to have got a lot worse in recent years.

There are some other bugs that annoy me that are still in the game, but are game killers though. Like the shirt numbers and names occasionally going blank during matches 

Just seems that a lot of corners have been cut this year, which is disappointing considering that a lot of the game is really good. It could be so much more enjoyable and immersive. I hope these are being fixed ahead of FM25.

[Nick_CB]

10 horas atrás, kiwityke1983 disse:

This is entirely your own fault for not taking the role out in the initial loan agreement. 

Clubs will pretty much always agree but might demand more wages or loan fee as a result because they want to develop the player to fit their squad not yours.

It's entirely realistic.

Ok. Now tell me where is the realism when the manager asks the player back because I used the player in the AML position instead of ML even though he was in the required role.

Show me a situation where this happened in real football.

[NineCloudNine]

21 minutes ago, Nick_CB said:

Ok. Now tell me where is the realism when the manager asks the player back because I used the player in the AML position instead of ML even though he was in the required role.

Show me a situation where this happened in real football.

You’re not playing real football, you’re playing a game and in that game you agreed to a bunch of optional conditions which you then didn’t fulfil.

[Nick_CB]

3 horas atrás, NineCloudNine disse:

You’re not playing real football, you’re playing a game and in that game you agreed to a bunch of optional conditions which you then didn’t fulfil.

The point is precisely that these options should not exist. In real football this doesn't exist. If you intend to simulate something, you need to pay attention to the details to get closer to reality.

[Rodrigogc]

6 horas atrás, rushdengooner disse:

I've took Derby from League 1 to the Premier League in 2 years. Then finished 8th in first season and 3rd in second PL season, getting into the CL. 

Had ZERO job offers or interviews. Totally unrealistic. You can't have a career save on this game. IRL, that sort of success would have you linked with bigger clubs in the PL and abroad. This part of the game seems to have got a lot worse in recent years.

 

De Zerbi hasn't won anything worth mentioning in his carreer and is always linked to big clubs, in FM that's not the case. I took St Pauli in FM23, got promoted and spent 8 seasons in the bundesliga, didn't win it but won the german cup and was always sitting between 7th~3rd in the league. I got only one job offer, to manage Monchengladbach that was  sitting below us but has more reputation. I decided to resign and got a job managing Swansea in the premier league, fighting against relegation. Meanwhile, in real life, managers like klopp and thomas tuchel went on to manage Borussia without winning anything at Mainz, just by doing a good job. 

That has been the case for a few versions I suppose, the game simply can't see past the reputation to make decisions on which managers to offer jobs, which players to sign, etc...

 

Edited May 18 by Rodrigogc

[Hoffbeck]

 

Wil this ever stop!

[XaW]

41 minutes ago, Hoffbeck said:

 

Wil this ever stop!

Oh, btw, I'm the away team....

[tezcatlipoca665]

8 hours ago, whatsupdoc said:

 

I hope that fm25 is better balanced in terms of the inherent strength of different formations. Annoying to see city inevitably drop down the table partly because 433 isn't working as well as double DM systems for example. 

Playing a new save right now and forgot to set Guardiola's preferred tactic from 4-3-3 to 4-2-3-1 like I usually do in the in-game editor (I'm not playing the PL). You can even see when I made the exact change.

[Cloud9]

2 hours ago, Hoffbeck said:

 

Wil this ever stop!

Looks like you lost to a counter attack system that cut you to pieces. Possession does not indicate that you deserved to win and counter attack systems will often have less XG than the opposition (and here they have more than you).

Check goalkeepers rating after the game, there is little you can do tactically if either goalkeeper has a stunner/shocker. Watch the goals back and make changes to your system.

Not an FM issue I'm afraid. 

Edited May 18 by Cloud9

[Cloud9]

10 hours ago, whatsupdoc said:

 

I hope that fm25 is better balanced in terms of the inherent strength of different formations. Annoying to see city inevitably drop down the table partly because 433 isn't working as well as double DM systems for example. 

4-3-3 is a punishing formation for less experienced players and it's got more things that can go wrong for the AI as well. It offers great upside and versatility (which is why we see many of big teams IRL utilizing it). I wouldn't say it's weaker than a 4-2-3-1 when done properly, just that the 4-2-3-1 is a much more user friendly formation.

Spoiler

Here's an example of the AI setting up a 4-3-3 in a way that causes issues for themselves. The double IWB + HB combo technically creates a 3-2 in buildup play but the IWB's leave a lot of space for opposition to get after in transition.

• If the AI had setup with an IFB(d) + libero (d) and a tall DM(s) they'd have a resolute defensive foundation to play in front of.
• However, If this was a 4-2-3-1 the AI would be fine in most matches setup as above as the double pivot provides protection for the aggressive wingbacks. 

Other formations (5 at the back systems, 4-4-2's etc.) all offer more protection on turnovers and require less need for "complete" players in certain positions (profile on DM + Striker becomes really important w/a 4-3-3). That's not to say that 4-3-3 AI managers are doomed, but that you're much more likely to see them overachieve with a user friendly formation as things stand. I consistently see Big Ange's Tottenham flying in my saves and I think this is a substantial component (along with the strong squad).

• It's worth noting that Arsenal finished second using the above formation in the league and that half the teams in the top 4 utilized a 4-3-3. Elsewhere in Europe Real Madrid won the Champions League, successfully deploying a 4-3-3 to defeat Atlético Madrid (a classic). I wouldn't view underachievement with a 4-3-3 from the AI as inevitable.

Hopefully the AI will continue to improve like we saw in FM24 but there will always be a lot of pitfalls for anyone setting up a 4-3-3.

Edited May 18 by Cloud9

[tezcatlipoca665]

This seems to happen in almost every one of my saves, but has anybody else noticed that Girona never register Savio to play in their squad? He's one of their best players and they just... don't register to use him, even as a sub option for the bench. There's a three non-EU player rule that it can affect, but Girona have only registered two non-EU players. He plays the first two games of the season and then when the registration deadline date comes and goes at September 1st, that's that for him and the end of his season.

Also, I cannot seem to ever get AI-managed Girona to avoid relegation in the first season. I tried to change their player attributes at the beginning of one save to better reflect (in my view) how their players have been performing this season to see if that'd work, and it didn't make a difference, still finishing last in LaLiga. This new save is based on Davincid's latest updates, and Girona are rock bottom once again and have just brought in Rudi Garcia to replace Michel. What is it that makes the AI perform well the most? Is it based primarily on club/manager reputation? Should I be looking into manually editing those attributes to get both Girona and Leverkusen to perform better? It doesn't seem to be the player attributes nor the manager CA/PA, in my experience.

Edited May 18 by tezcatlipoca665

[fat mole]

Bit random, and I'm not necessarily advocating for a change because this would probably reduce the enjoyment for most players. From a realsim point of view players seem to hit hit the target with shots much more often than in the real-world. Just something I noticed.

In-game:

Reality:

 

Edited May 19 by fat mole

[kiwityke1983]

13 hours ago, Nick_CB said:

Ok. Now tell me where is the realism when the manager asks the player back because I used the player in the AML position instead of ML even though he was in the required role.

Show me a situation where this happened in real football.

Happens loads of times where clubs recall players for all sorts of reasons, some of which I'm sure are they were played in the wrong position.

 

The faults yours for not removing the stipulation when setting up the loan, not the games.

If a manager wants a player to play in a certain position and you are playing them outside of that position having agreed previously to do so, of course they are going to be annoyed.

I as a human player have recalled a number of loanees because the AI insisted on playing them in roles outside what we'd agreed and I wanted the player to develop in that role.

 

[kiwityke1983]

12 hours ago, NineCloudNine said:

You’re not playing real football, you’re playing a game and in that game you agreed to a bunch of optional conditions which you then didn’t fulfil.

It happens IRL too so he's not even got that going for him.

[Cloud9]

3 hours ago, tezcatlipoca665 said:

This seems to happen in almost every one of my saves, but has anybody else noticed that Girona never register Savio to play in their squad? He's one of their best players and they just... don't register to use him, even as a sub option for the bench. There's a three non-EU player rule that it can affect, but Girona have only registered two non-EU players. He plays the first two games of the season and then when the registration deadline date comes and goes at September 1st, that's that for him and the end of his season.

Also, I cannot seem to ever get AI-managed Girona to avoid relegation in the first season. I tried to change their player attributes at the beginning of one save to better reflect (in my view) how their players have been performing this season to see if that'd work, and it didn't make a difference, still finishing last in LaLiga. This new save is based on Davincid's latest updates, and Girona are rock bottom once again and have just brought in Rudi Garcia to replace Michel. What is it that makes the AI perform well the most? Is it based primarily on club/manager reputation? Should I be looking into manually editing those attributes to get both Girona and Leverkusen to perform better? It doesn't seem to be the player attributes nor the manager CA/PA, in my experience.

The AI not playing high PA players because they have a lower CA is a long-standing issue that SI attempted to address on FM24 (I detailed my issues with flaws in the updated system earlier in this thread). 

Spoiler

That being said, Savio played consistently for Girona and has developed quite nicely in my own save.

On the rest, Girona underperforms in FM because they over perform in real life. If you're editing player CA/PA that will influence results.

Edited May 19 by Cloud9

[Cloud9]

This is a minor change I'd like to see to the game, but a player playing as an IWB should gain positional familiarity with the DM position.

[Nick_CB]

1 hora atrás, kiwityke1983 disse:

Happens loads of times where clubs recall players for all sorts of reasons, some of which I'm sure are they were played in the wrong position.

 

The faults yours for not removing the stipulation when setting up the loan, not the games.

If a manager wants a player to play in a certain position and you are playing them outside of that position having agreed previously to do so, of course they are going to be annoyed.

I as a human player have recalled a number of loanees because the AI insisted on playing them in roles outside what we'd agreed and I wanted the player to develop in that role.

 

There really is a big difference and the position of AML instead of ML could harm the player

[Mitja]

6 hours ago, tezcatlipoca665 said:

Also, I cannot seem to ever get AI-managed Girona to avoid relegation in the first season. I tried to change their player attributes at the beginning of one save to better reflect (in my view) how their players have been performing this season to see if that'd work, and it didn't make a difference, still finishing last in LaLiga. This new save is based on Davincid's latest updates, and Girona are rock bottom once again and have just brought in Rudi Garcia to replace Michel. What is it that makes the AI perform well the most? Is it based primarily on club/manager reputation? Should I be looking into manually editing those attributes to get both Girona and Leverkusen to perform better? It doesn't seem to be the player attributes nor the manager CA/PA, in my experience.

Increase in mentality attribute could do the trick. 

[NineCloudNine]

2 hours ago, Nick_CB said:

There really is a big difference and the position of AML instead of ML could harm the player

The distinction that FM draws between AML/R and ML/R is a hangover from a time when there was a big difference between a wide midfielder (Beckham) and a winger (Giggs) in a world that mainly played 4-4-2. I agree that it makes little sense now.

That said, the entire position / role system is arguably artificial and restrictive given the fluidity of modern football systems. It’s necessary because SI are coding a game which inevitably has to be a simplistic version of the real thing. Hopefully this will change with the new game engine.

Lots of things in the game are like this - intended to represent rather than replicate some aspect of football. I’m sure real life loan contracts don’t include clauses specifying AM rather than M as playing position, but they do include a clear expectation of how a player will be used in a team and the clauses in FM loan contracts - however clunky - reflect that.

This game module - like so many others - could do with a polish. In  the meantime, don’t agree to clauses in a loan contract that you don’t intend to fulfil .

[El Payaso]

All this talk about AI's tactical choices even strengthens my desire to have the possibility to edit the AI managers' tactics through the editors in a way that you could actually determine what kind of tactics they would use, from role selection to team instructions. There are plenty of threads where players are replicating real-life style of plays and it would be fantastic if we would be able to feed these tactics to the data and thereby make the game both more realistic and challenging. 

[NineCloudNine]

36 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

All this talk about AI's tactical choices even strengthens my desire to have the possibility to edit the AI managers' tactics through the editors in a way that you could actually determine what kind of tactics they would use, from role selection to team instructions. There are plenty of threads where players are replicating real-life style of plays and it would be fantastic if we would be able to feed these tactics to the data and thereby make the game both more realistic and challenging. 

You can do this now. Every manager (indeed every non-player) has a large list of preferences, tendencies and personality traits. Clubs and Boards also have playing style preferences. It’s these which difficulty mods like Davincid’s tinker with.

There are clearly going to be limitations on how these work in-game (ME, player type and quality etc) but in theory all the necessary tools exist to do what you describe.

[El Payaso]

40 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

You can do this now. Every manager (indeed every non-player) has a large list of preferences, tendencies and personality traits. Clubs and Boards also have playing style preferences. It’s these which difficulty mods like Davincid’s tinker with.

There are clearly going to be limitations on how these work in-game (ME, player type and quality etc) but in theory all the necessary tools exist to do what you describe.

But this is still not the same thing as actually being able to create style of plays with the editor. You are able to make guidelines with these options but not actually able to control how certain AI managers set up their tactics. 

[b2khn]

Why "player interactions"? Can you just make a game mode without them? It's getting ridiculous.
When you are in the CL, you have a game every 3-4 days.
Contrary to reality, you cannot let your players play 50 games in a row without a break.
So you start to rotate, you build a squad of 24 good players and they all want to start all the time.
Then they come to you and say "I want to play more!" You try to calm them down, and then every player triggers a meeting with every other player in the squad and says that this particular player should play all the time.

HOW? That is not possible.

The game is not supposed to be like that. It should give you a choice, an option where the player just walks away and accepts your word as a manager.
Either that or just strip the game to bare metal. Training, Tactic, Transfers.

Edited May 19 by b2khn

[NineCloudNine]

59 minutes ago, b2khn said:

So you start to rotate, you build a squad of 24 good players and they all want to start all the time.
Then they come to you and say "I want to play more!" You try to calm them down, and then every player triggers a meeting with every other player in the squad and says that this particular player should play all the time.

It's not possible to keep a squad of 24 players all happy with their game time. Doesn't happen even with the best clubs IRL. Riyad Mahrez made 30 league appearences in Man City's *treble winning* team last year and still left because he didn't start the big games. City have a 22-player squad including 3 keepers. Cole Palmer preferred to leave rather than be part of even that small squad. Every single transfer window players leave clubs because they aren't getting the game time they want.

You don't need to speak to them - Ange Postecoglou doesn't, to give a RL example. Just decline. Then decline the team meeting too. Sell the ones who aren't happy, or send them out on loan. Don't promise playing time you can't give. 24 senior players is too many, have some kids as well.

I agree that this module is twitchy and the team tantrums are tiresome. I'd like it to be tuned down. But meanwhile the tools exist to manage it, while also accepting that this is a fundamental part of managing a team.

Edited May 19 by NineCloudNine

[b2khn]

9 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

It's not possible to keep a squad of 24 players all happy with their game time. Doesn't happen even with the best clubs IRL. Riyad Mahrez made 30 league appearences in Man City's *treble winning* team last year and still left because he didn't start the big games. City have a 22-player squad including 3 keepers. Cole Palmer preferred to leave rather than be part of even that small squad. Every single transfer window players leave clubs because they aren't getting the game time they want.

You don't need to speak to them - Ange Postecoglou doesn't, to give a RL example. Just decline. Then decline the team meeting too. Sell the ones who aren't happy, or send them out on loan. Don't promise playing time you can't give. 24 senior players is too many, have some kids as well.

I agree that this module is twitchy and the team tantrums are tiresome. I'd like it to be tuned down. But meanwhile the tools exist to manage it, while also accepting that this is a fundamental part of managing a team.

I don't agree. This is not a realistic approach.

Figure this; In 1 game there is 1 spot for a winger. The winger who is starting 25 games, says he wanna play 50 games, You say : "no". You can't give him the reason, which is, the winger can't cope with more games, or he will just get jaded.
Then the other winger is coming in, who is also playing 25 games. He then says, "why is the player that is sharing his spot with me not starting all the time? I want him to start all the time!" At the same time he come to you and says "actually I want to play 50 games not 25, why am I not starting all the time? "

Expand this on every spot. This is not plausible, it is just wrong and impossible.

[NineCloudNine]

41 minutes ago, b2khn said:

Figure this; In 1 game there is 1 spot for a winger. The winger who is starting 25 games, says he wanna play 50 games, You say : "no". You can't give him the reason, which is, the winger can't cope with more games, or he will just get jaded.
Then the other winger is coming in, who is also playing 25 games. He then says, "why is the player that is sharing his spot with me not starting all the time? I want him to start all the time!" At the same time he come to you and says "actually I want to play 50 games not 25, why am I not starting all the time? ".

This scenario has ever happened to me. Literally not once, ever. The only time a player complains about not playing every match is when they have been given Star Player status (which I now never do). The only times I am asked for a meeting with a player to discuss playing time is when they are not getting the playing time I have promised them and it is always fair enough. I only recall one or two instances of players demanding a team meeting over another player's playing time and that was when I had just joined and was deliberately trying to upset a player so they would leave. Saying "everyone has to earn their place" or "giving him the playing time he wants means someone else missing out" works almost every time. For those players that do get upset, threatening to sell them usually works, or saying there's lots of competition for their position. If not, sell them.

Now, I play as an experienced manager at top teams. If you're a lower league manager with zero reputation then it's going to be much harder. That's because it is, in fact, much harder.

The team tantrums that I do get which are annoying are when everyone thinks I sould accept a miserly offer from a bigger club for one of our best players. I suspect the 'hold a team meeting' option is intended to reflect what we see reported as 'a clear-the-air' meeting IRL. I don't think it works as a representation of player power and I think the algorithm here is twitchy and over-tuned. However, I don't accept that it is realistic to expect to keep a squad of 24 senior players happy with playing time simultaneously. The only happy players at any club IRL are the ones playing regularly and the kids being given their first chances. Everyone else is grumpy to a greater or lesser extent and managing that is one of the core skills of management.

Edited May 19 by NineCloudNine

[tezcatlipoca665]

11 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

The AI not playing high PA players because they have a lower CA is a long-standing issue that SI attempted to address on FM24 (I detailed my issues with flaws in the updated system earlier in this thread). 

The issue I'm describing isn't related to the AI not playing high PA players, nor an issue with how it's reading CA. I've sent SI multiple saves relating to squad building problems in the beginning during the beta period and (I think) up until December when I just gave up because it wasn't going to be fixed, so I know that's an issue already, and this is why I've been paying particular attention to the hidden attributes in this game more than I'd like to. If you mean that Girona hasn't registered Savio because of his CA, well, his CA is the 3rd highest in this squad. Girona haven't filled in their 25 player slot (they've registered 22 players). They have 3 slots for foreign players and only chose to take up 2 of them. They're also way below the wage cap threshold by £150,000, with Savio's contracted wage being £12,250. Something else is happening here. If they chose not to register him because they filled their 25 player registration limit, and/or their foreign player limit, it'd be easier to figure out what the problem is and see if I can fix it myself. Without those, though, it's much more difficult to figure out why this is happening.
 

 

Spoiler

 

 

11 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

On the rest, Girona underperforms in FM because they over perform in real life. If you're editing player CA/PA that will influence results.

I'm really not trying to get them to perform to the levels they're currently showing irl, but rock bottom with a single win or two almost every save is really far removed from that. If I could even somehow get Girona to win even 10 games in a season, I wouldn't mind.

 

8 hours ago, Mitja said:

Increase in mentality attribute could do the trick. 

I decided to just take over the team in this save and see if I can find anything myself. In LaLiga, Girona is 19th in Aggression, 20th in Stamina, 16th in Strength, 15th in both Pace and Acceleration, 19th in Work Rate, and 14th in Positioning (all out of 20, of course). I think I've figured out why this team is regularly ripped to shreds, at least. An absolutely horrific combination. I'll have to edit the players using the pre-game editor in these areas in particular.

Edited May 19 by tezcatlipoca665

[El Payaso]

Could you please start putting these current and potential ability numbers behind spoilers? Not everyone wants to see them. 

Edited May 19 by El Payaso

[Hoffbeck]

22 hours ago, XaW said:

Oh, btw, I'm the away team....

 

Oh by the way, i am the home team

[XaW]

1 minute ago, Hoffbeck said:

 

Oh by the way, i am the home team

If you see this happen every time or very often, then that's on you poor management. I see it a handful of times per season both for and against. If you see this every game, why not do something about it? Where do the goals come from? Who are involved?  If you are so dominant, does your players reduce their effort? Looking at that only and not at the details is your issue.

[Svenc]

11 minutes ago, Hoffbeck said:

 

Oh by the way, i am the home team

What do your seasonal stats look like? Expected Points and goals.


If you can't to that to an AI manager ever, I direct you to this post.

[El Payaso]

57 minutes ago, Hoffbeck said:

 

Oh by the way, i am the home team

With a low-block, cautious mentality and pure counter-attacking playing style, I am practically never in control of the games based on stats but end up doing well more often than not. 

The stats rarely look like that but in general I am more than happy to let the opposition have the control and pass the ball around and then hit them 1-3 times from high quality chances that are easier to convert than miss. 

Stats, especially the xG is not at telling you the true story. 

@Svenc pfff, checked your examples from the previous page. Luckily the game doesn't create these 30-40 shots on goal per game (per team) matches that often anymore. 

[janrzm]

16 hours ago, Nick_CB said:

There really is a big difference and the position of AML instead of ML could harm the player

 

I get the frustration, there's nowhere near enough nuance around agreeing loan deals and how they play out in game, I made a feature request about this last year. Extract below. 

 

"How do you feel about the inclusion of "expected minutes" in the loan deals.

Also, the option of a second acceptable role, this would allow us to link similar "acceptable"  roles.

Not a fixed rule but manager personality dependant perhaps some more pragmatism around a loan deal if a player has played out of an agreed position but has developed well.

Also the ability to acknowledge when a player has had to be used in a certain way due to injury but has collected more minutes/experience than originally agreed. 

Just thoughts. "

Edited May 19 by janrzm

[whatsupdoc]

On 19/05/2024 at 05:55, Cloud9 said:

4-3-3 is a punishing formation for less experienced players and it's got more things that can go wrong for the AI as well. It offers great upside and versatility (which is why we see many of big teams IRL utilizing it). I wouldn't say it's weaker than a 4-2-3-1 when done properly, just that the 4-2-3-1 is a much more user friendly formation.

  Hide contents

Here's an example of the AI setting up a 4-3-3 in a way that causes issues for themselves. The double IWB + HB combo technically creates a 3-2 in buildup play but the IWB's leave a lot of space for opposition to get after in transition.

• If the AI had setup with an IFB(d) + libero (d) and a tall DM(s) they'd have a resolute defensive foundation to play in front of.
• However, If this was a 4-2-3-1 the AI would be fine in most matches setup as above as the double pivot provides protection for the aggressive wingbacks. 

Other formations (5 at the back systems, 4-4-2's etc.) all offer more protection on turnovers and require less need for "complete" players in certain positions (profile on DM + Striker becomes really important w/a 4-3-3). That's not to say that 4-3-3 AI managers are doomed, but that you're much more likely to see them overachieve with a user friendly formation as things stand. I consistently see Big Ange's Tottenham flying in my saves and I think this is a substantial component (along with the strong squad).

• It's worth noting that Arsenal finished second using the above formation in the league and that half the teams in the top 4 utilized a 4-3-3. Elsewhere in Europe Real Madrid won the Champions League, successfully deploying a 4-3-3 to defeat Atlético Madrid (a classic). I wouldn't view underachievement with a 4-3-3 from the AI as inevitable.

Hopefully the AI will continue to improve like we saw in FM24 but there will always be a lot of pitfalls for anyone setting up a 4-3-3.

 

It's not any of this stuff imo, it's just that in FM24 three things are happening: 

- Majority of goals are coming from advanced strikers and attacking AM roles. 

- the IFs do not cut in enough and do not make enough (or aggressive enough) diagonal runs in behind. 

- double DMs on support duty are OP.

These combine to simply make dropping an AM back to CM, and relying on IFs for more goals a simply inferior setup due to the nature of the engine. 

[XaW]

@skyzekaizo - I removed your post due to profanity. Feel free to repost it without it if you wish.

[skyzekaizo]

nothing in this game works like it should, I've seen a carileiro sitting narrower than a CDM, a WB-a (with PPM hugs the line) sitting in the channel while there is space on the flank, a FB-s with sit narrower sitting as wide as a regular WB, a F9 which should drop in midfield staying as high as possible.

Wingers on away games loose the ball as soon as they touch it, while opposition wingers can carve your defence open like cake. Pressing and tackling does not work on away games (except for opposition), I have played a game with 3 BWMs, 1 PF and everyone on tackle harder (both in PIs and OIs), get stuck in, much more often pressing, and I saw the opposition players moving freely, I barely saw a tackle in that game.

I've seen sides like cadiz or las palmas play with an IWB and IFB like they have the squad for that, I've seen them playing perfect tiki taka passes while my team (barcelona) looses the ball every 5 sec, I can't count how much weaker sides I've seen gegenpressing my team during the whole game like it's free real estate. Also there is no way to play on lower tempo in this game because the opposition automatically presses much more often and manages to do it succesfully (even though they don't have the squad for it).

Almost every opposition use a high def line when you use a supporting striker, making them barely playable, and they barely get punished for it even with hit early crosses and pass into space ticked on.

Positional play is a joke, the CM strata is inexistant during build up, it's either AM or DM, nothing in between.

[XaW]

On 19/05/2024 at 19:30, Svenc said:

What do your seasonal stats look like? Expected Points and goals.

If you can't to that to an AI manager ever, I direct you to this post.

Just found out the game does actually let you discuss xG, as I had this question in a press conference.

The answer in the middle gives away the meta of xG in essence, but also the one left of it goes a bit into the exceptions to xG based on player quality.

This is also a feedback on how questions in the press conferences needs to be more unique, as I trawl through a million identical ones to find gems occasionally. So my feedback to SI is once again; These types of questions are the type we want, remove the fluff and keep the press conferences short and sweet and only have actual contextually sound questions. Please remove the "team x are over/under achieving, what do you think?", "are you trying to buy player y?", "are you happy you won the game?" type questions that are just boring repetitive. Keep questions to a max of 2-3 each time and only have interesting ones. Leave the standard questions out of it and it will be much more interesting to actually attend the press conferences.

[WelshMourinho]

 

 

 

This sort of thing bugs me to no end and it happens so frequently in both the CL and in massive league games. Massive teams who should on paper be quite even turns into these absurd decimations where the away team consistently plays below their actual level. Honestly the attackers for the away team (at least with what the ME presents) look like they've never touched a football before. There's always going to be an advantage when you're at home, but it's like it kicks into overdrive.

[skyzekaizo]

31 minutes ago, WelshMourinho said:

 

 

 

This sort of thing bugs me to no end and it happens so frequently in both the CL and in massive league games. Massive teams who should on paper be quite even turns into these absurd decimations where the away team consistently plays below their actual level. Honestly the attackers for the away team (at least with what the ME presents) look like they've never touched a football before. There's always going to be an advantage when you're at home, but it's like it kicks into overdrive.

So I just played a game vs Espanyol, which got promoted last season, here is the scout report:

Their players are around 125 CA, in terms of attribute they have low passing, work rate, aggression, composure, stamina, concentration and movement.

I'm playing Barcelona, by now even my B team is at least full of 145+ CA players with good levels of passing, composure, movement and concentration.

And yet, espanyol play gegenpress during the whole game, they complete more than 88% passes, they also play with both IWB and IFB of course.

During this game they completely outclassed my team in both defense, pressing, tackling, passing, dribbling and creating occasions.