Football Manager 2024 Official Feedback Thread

[Gh0zt]

Physical attributes have been OP for years now, I don't even look at players with less than 14 pace or acceleration (depending on the league I'm in). There are very few players in the database with perfect 20s though, and it makes some sense that being the fastest footballer in the world would mask poor finishing, but even 15-16 is good enough for most leagues, 17+ is elite. First touch and dribbling also important, but passing, positioning, tackling, off the ball etc? Not so much. The best players in the game like Mbappe, Haaland, Salah, Vinicius Jr. have good technical attributes but they also have good physical attributes. Slower, more technical players in the mould Berbatov or Klose will never perform as well as the pace merchants.

The match engine is ultimately a lot of lines of code and can be exploited like in any other game... Does anyone remember CM0102 legend Maksim Tsyhalka? He could score more than van Nistelrooy because he had high meta attributes in that version of the game.

[fc.cadoni]

9 hours ago, TheVerySpecialOne said:

Have you guys seen this? Apparently, players with 9 'Meta' attributes all at 20/20 and almost every other attribute at 1/20 (This gives each player approximately 80-90 CA, which is about Vanarama National League level) perform great, while on the other hand players with 9 'Meta' attributes all at 10/20, with every other attribute at 20/20 (This gives each player approximately 180-190 CA, which should be enough to walk the Premier League) perform very poorly and is being relegated

I am wondering why this post has been deleted from Reddit group.

[Dotsworthy]

In CM03/04 I once signed Julian Rantier who it turned out had just 120CA, but had rolled 20 Acceleration, Pace and Jumping Reach. 

He would win the ball in the air and chase his own flick ons all day long and the match engine couldn't handle it 

At least FM has attribute weighting, which makes seeing these kind of edge cases impossible in game.

[Mitja]

Why Messi never hadn't been The Meta Player. He was perfect with that weak righ foot. Remember before Messi couldn't catch his real life numbers?

[CAE82]

57 minutes ago, Rodrigogc said:

so basically his decision making doesn't make difference

If you look at the CA attribute weights, ‘Decisions’ is more highly weighted for defensive players (GK 10, DC 10, DM 8) compared to attackers (AM 6, AMRL 5, SC 5). This also holds true for other attributes that could be considered to contribute towards ‘intelligence’. Looking at the weights overall for all positions, I’d say AMRL is the position you can get away with ‘dumb’ players so long as they have good physicals (Pace, Acceleration, Stamina). 

I suppose the ME considers the position/roles as the easiest/simplest to play; get the ball and run as fast as you can up the wing, cross and do this repeatedly.

”Run Forest, Run!” 

[Rodrigogc]

35 minutos atrás, Mitja disse:

Why Messi never hadn't been The Meta Player. He was perfect with that weak righ foot. Remember before Messi couldn't catch his real life numbers?

Has anyone ever tried Messi as a False 9 role ? I'm sure it wouldn't work as much as many other roles, even though it is messi. 

Edited February 9 by Rodrigogc

[santy001]

Lionel Messi scored 7 in 12 at the age of 39 as an Enganche in my side. Sadly I only got him for the last 6 months of his career as he could've easily kept going for a few more years.

[wazzaflow10]

2 hours ago, RDF Tactics said:

Both sides can have a point. Test may be flawed but there could be a point in their conclusion. Same way, other attributes that exist still play its part so not only 9 attributes matter. 
 

if you had a slow technical team then you can still get respectable results using aggressive tactic. That, I’m sure of.

its possible youre still better off playing aggressive than not.

thats just my opinion from experience 

I don't think its a matter of aggression its also what you're asking them to do with the ball. A slow technical team trying to play direct and playing balls into space on top of also trying to gegenpress is likely going to suffer as we saw. If those 9 attributes are actually the only ones that matter then we should be able to take what is supposed to be a poorly designed tactic and dominate.

These sort of tests (again not knowing for sure what tactic was used) seems to stretch the extreme boundaries of the game in all directions. It might be useful in a context of physical attributes are more important than corner kicks but probably isn't useful to SI in terms of smoothing out the edges of the engine. We all know the game has limits. If we're all invested in testing these limits then we should do it constructively and with rigor to help improve the game rather than make claims on reddit for upvotes.  

[wazzaflow10]

1 hour ago, Gh0zt said:

The best players in the game like Mbappe, Haaland, Salah, Vinicius Jr. have good technical attributes but they also have good physical attributes. Slower, more technical players in the mould Berbatov or Klose will never perform as well as the pace merchants.

That's kind of true in real life. Those first four are elite, elite talents. Berbatov and klose were very good players with very good careers but never considered in "best player in the world" tier.

[RDF Tactics]

1 hour ago, wazzaflow10 said:

I don't think its a matter of aggression its also what you're asking them to do with the ball. A slow technical team trying to play direct and playing balls into space on top of also trying to gegenpress is likely going to suffer as we saw. If those 9 attributes are actually the only ones that matter then we should be able to take what is supposed to be a poorly designed tactic and dominate.

These sort of tests (again not knowing for sure what tactic was used) seems to stretch the extreme boundaries of the game in all directions. It might be useful in a context of physical attributes are more important than corner kicks but probably isn't useful to SI in terms of smoothing out the edges of the engine. We all know the game has limits. If we're all invested in testing these limits then we should do it constructively and with rigor to help improve the game rather than make claims on reddit for upvotes.  

These “tests” rarely interest me because it’s never how you’re going to play the game so I take them as a pinch of salt.

it would never change the way I play or who I sign in game.

but just judging from the fact they removed the post from Reddit, I’m not sure it was supposed to be digested in the way it has/was. There has always been a community for this sort of stuff within the FM community. 

[wazzaflow10]

1 hour ago, RDF Tactics said:

These “tests” rarely interest me because it’s never how you’re going to play the game so I take them as a pinch of salt.

it would never change the way I play or who I sign in game.

but just judging from the fact they removed the post from Reddit, I’m not sure it was supposed to be digested in the way it has/was. There has always been a community for this sort of stuff within the FM community. 

Agreed. That's why I consider it an extreme event. None of the kind of players they've created exist in the game so its not possible to even implement. The game isn't meant to be solved in that manner.

 

[Ein]

The test exaggerates what FM players could deduce already: that attributes are either much less or much more effective than they should be. The effects of what the test demonstrates can be observed in the game with the types of players that are OP and types of players that are underwhelming (especially when played by the AI). Someone rightly mentioned Abraham and Kane. I've seen plenty of saves where Kane struggles to reach double figures for pretty much his entire career whereas the likes of Haaland and Abraham will always do well under the AI.

[Mitja]

6 hours ago, wazzaflow10 said:

Agreed. That's why I consider it an extreme event. None of the kind of players they've created exist in the game so its not possible to even implement. The game isn't meant to be solved in that manner.

 

I'm not sure why it matters if such players exist in game? That's why experiments like this exist. It's like comparing a team of fastest NBA players to a all star team of veterans. Yes the test could have been done better and repeated but result is shocking to put it mildly. 

[NineCloudNine]

2 minutes ago, Mitja said:

I'm not sure why it matters if such players exist in game? That's why experiments like this exist. It's like comparing a team of fastest NBA players to a all star team of veterans. Yes the test could have been done better and repeated but result is shocking to put it mildly. 

It matters because it is not a scenario which the game should be expected to cope with. An extreme experiment producing extreme results doesn’t tell us anything about the performance of the ME in normal play.

Remember also that if the test “could have been done better” then the results cannot be “shocking” because we don’t know if the results are an artifact of the test design. 

[Mitja]

23 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

It matters because it is not a scenario which the game should be expected to cope with. An extreme experiment producing extreme results doesn’t tell us anything about the performance of the ME in normal play.

Remember also that if the test “could have been done better” then the results cannot be “shocking” because we don’t know if the results are an artifact of the test design. 

Doesnt tell us anything? How would you test meta attributes than? You need to put extreme values. 

The team of ca 180-190 veterans should walk the league not being relegated. 

Edited February 10 by Mitja

[NineCloudNine]

5 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Doesnt tell us anything? How would you test meta attributes than? You need to put extreme values. 

The team of ca 180-190 veterans should walk the league not being relegated. 

I would like to see a test in which player attribute profiles are within reasonable boundaries, but with different emphases on physical, mental or technical attributes. I’d want the test conducted hundreds of times with different combinations of attribute profiles.

The now-deleted test on Reddit was like eating nothing except pizza for a year then concluding that pizza is bad for you. This tells you nothing about pizza.

[Mitja]

3 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

I would like to see a test in which player attribute profiles are within reasonable boundaries, but with different emphases on physical, mental or technical attributes. I’d want the test conducted hundreds of times with different combinations of attribute profiles.

The now-deleted test on Reddit was like eating nothing except pizza for a year then concluding that pizza is bad for you. This tells you nothing about pizza.

The veteran team is within reasonable boundaries since such players do exist. If anything the op was too generous with them.

I don't agree with the other part of what you said. You need to use extreme values in such test.

[kiwityke1983]

11 hours ago, fc.cadoni said:

I am wondering why this post has been deleted from Reddit group.

Zealand did his own test and found the claims were somewhat true but entirely overblown mainly because they didn't run the ME in full detail would be my guess.

Edited February 10 by kiwityke1983

[NineCloudNine]

4 minutes ago, Mitja said:

 

I don't agree with the other part of what you said. You need to use extreme values in such test.

The more extreme the parameters in a test, the less relevant the test is to normal conditions. Eating pizza for a year tells you nothing about pizza except that it shouldn’t be your whole diet.

If you are deliberately trying to break the ME then for sure you need an extreme test. But that doesn’t tell you anything useful.

Like many posters here I do think - from my own experience - that physical attributes are over-emphasised in the current ME. But the Reddit test doesn’t prove that to be the case in any reasonably replicable in-game scenario and is therefore not helpful in making the case for change.

[g1nh0]

10 hours ago, Rodrigogc said:

Has anyone ever tried Messi as a False 9 role ? I'm sure it wouldn't work as much as many other roles, even though it is messi. 

I have - and it doesn't  Not been able to utilise an F9 well for a few years now.

[santy001]

CA isn't a defining guide to player quality. It has frequently been stressed that is not its intention. It is an overall calculation of a players attributes but does not account for the purpose specific quality those attributes fulfil in a game of football. 

When Stoke were a premier league team I frequently faced situations whereby the club would spend X million on a new player who would come in and be ill-fitted to the team and the premier league. On the other hand, you had a collection limited hardworking players who did perform well. Conventional wisdom would be that these new signings would get their CA's dropped to the 120ish mark and these stalwarts who kept performing should be raised to around 150. 

That didn't happen. The likes of Jon Walters, Glenn Whelan, Charlie Adam - they didn't get the CA's that would fit the "expectation" for mid-table PL team but were still extremely reliable and highly functional players compared to the higher CA's in the squad. Ryan Shawcross and Robert Huth did peak around the 150 mark, but only when they were absolute physical monsters for a couple of years before back injuries caught up with Shawcross. Huth I don't think got dropped too much and proved he wasn't past it by going to Leicester and winning the league anyway. Every moderator on these forums for goodness knows how many years have pointed out the spread of attributes is always more important than CA.

I can easily knock together a 170-180 CA squad that should be ill-fitted to staying in the Premier League and I reckon I could just as easily knock together a 120-130CA squad capable of completing a clean sweep of trophies. Most researchers should probably be capable of this with the knowledge we get provided about the workings of attributes. The fact is though such players practically never emerge during normal gameplay. 

The amount of time it would take to create an ME that handles normal parameters but then can also handle these "extremes" people throw out in testing would probably be a multi-year project in its own right and require sacrifices elsewhere. I don't think Miles pitching the idea to the playerbase that they're gonna spend 4 years working on making sure Random Reddit Test 97 cannot happen. Meanwhile there will be no bugs fixed with the ME/features added to/iteration of the ME during that time.

Realistically the solution to handle extremes being thrown at the ME would be to introduce a degree of scripting outcomes. Run sanity checks before a game and where those rules are breached impose an outcome on the match. A campaign to introduce scripting to the game would be amusing.

[Mitja]

4 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

The more extreme the parameters in a test, the less relevant the test is to normal conditions. Eating pizza for a year tells you nothing about pizza except that it shouldn’t be your whole diet.

If you are deliberately trying to break the ME then for sure you need an extreme test. But that doesn’t tell you anything useful.

Like many posters here I do think - from my own experience - that physical attributes are over-emphasised in the current ME. But the Reddit test doesn’t prove that to be the case in any reasonably replicable in-game scenario and is therefore not helpful in making the case for change.

Ok I could agree the meta team figuration is unrealistic but it doesn't change much. It's a team of extreme athletes who never played football. But let's forget about them.

The vetera team on the other hand was too good if anything. How could they underperform so badly? The pizza analogy makes no sense to me how does eating pizza for whole year compare to playing football is beyond me.

[kiwityke1983]

3 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Ok I could agree the meta team figuration is unrealistic but it doesn't change much. It's a team of extreme athletes who never played football. But let's forget about them.

The vetera team on the other hand was too good if anything. How could they underperform so badly? The pizza analogy makes no sense to me how does eating pizza for whole year compare to playing football is beyond me.

Because they had across the board below average physicals of 10 (Prem average is 14 apparently)

I also think people under estimate just how important physical attributes are to modern football.

Especially in the Prem it's played at a thousand miles an hour a team full of players who lacked pace and strength in every position on the pitch but were technically very good IMO would struggle to compete as they'd get beaten to every 50/50, header etc.

You can maybe carry one of those types of players IRL.

[whatsupdoc]

52 minutes ago, kiwityke1983 said:

Because they had across the board below average physicals of 10 (Prem average is 14 apparently)

I also think people under estimate just how important physical attributes are to modern football.

Especially in the Prem it's played at a thousand miles an hour a team full of players who lacked pace and strength in every position on the pitch but were technically very good IMO would struggle to compete as they'd get beaten to every 50/50, header etc.

You can maybe carry one of those types of players IRL.

Depends on the tactic used but this squad being relegated provides a decent talking point if nothing else. 

[fc.cadoni]

1 hour ago, kiwityke1983 said:

Zealand did his own test and found the claims were somewhat true but entirely overblown mainly because they didn't run the ME in full detail would be my guess.

So the previous one was from the youtuber?

[whatsupdoc]

1 minute ago, fc.cadoni said:

So the previous one was from the youtuber?

He didn't test the more relevant configuration which is the one above ("Meta attributes" 10/20, "Non-Meta attributes 20/20").

[kiwityke1983]

46 minutes ago, fc.cadoni said:

So the previous one was from the youtuber?

I dunno who did the first test.

[dannyo666]

15 hours ago, fc.cadoni said:

I am wondering why this post has been deleted from Reddit group.

Redditt is a strange strange place......the gatekeeping that goes on there is insane....you see posts there from people who have a legit issue and are just looking for answers and these gatekeeper's will absolutely hammer them in the comments because the party line is """FM24 is brilliant-if youve an issue your crap at the game-Stop complaining"""yet these gatekeepers will never start a post themselves if you notice-They will however spend their time dragging other peoples posts down...i wouldn't be surprised if he was getting private messages saying all sorts of negative things  to him....It was a legit test with legit results to an extent but as i said he didnt follow the party line...I dont think too many people are shocked but defo surprised by the results...Id love to see this done on older versions say 15/16/17/18 and see what happens....as someone said these problem's have been there for a few years now but in 24 its really OTT having good mentals/physicals in fairness

[CAE82]

3 hours ago, santy001 said:

CA isn't a defining guide to player quality. It has frequently been stressed that is not its intention. It is an overall calculation of a players attributes but does not account for the purpose specific quality those attributes fulfil in a game of football. 

I've come to believe that for a human-player, CA is pretty much irrelevant. During a match, then it all boils down to attributes (and relevant attributes for roles etc.) This has pretty much be confirmed by devs on the forum.

The main use for CA (for human-players) is that is bascially gives the game a crude approximation/average of their 'overall' ability (based on their attributes). This is then compared to their PA to see if they have room left to develop attributes through training and playing (devs have also confirmed that increasing attributes cause increases in CA, not the other way around - I think that was the case in earlier versions of CM). This method is a fairly blunt tool, but much easier to implement than each individual attribute having a potential maximum. I'd also speculate that staff and AM make suggestions (line-ups, transfer targets etc) based on CA and not individual attributes. Presumably AI teams also use CA in that regard and it is probably used at the start of the season to predict league positions in the season preview and so on. I've not seen it confirmed but there are suggestions that the quick match engine just uses CA and team reputation to calculate results and not individual player attributes.

As a researcher, you'll know for sure, but presumably researchers are given target CAs for squads to try and reflect real-life and then it is down to the skill of the researcher to design the players attribute values to match?

Overall, I thought the test results were interesting but simply confirmed what we already know - physicals are king and can lead to OP performances.

p.s. Height is not CA weighted and thus is 'free' - I'd be interested to see a test with the current EPL squads - all players at 5'6" and then Luton at 6'6".

 

[wazzaflow10]

5 hours ago, santy001 said:

Realistically the solution to handle extremes being thrown at the ME would be to introduce a degree of scripting outcomes. Run sanity checks before a game and where those rules are breached impose an outcome on the match. A campaign to introduce scripting to the game would be amusing.

LOL! Who's bringing the popcorn for the forum meltdown and the 1k comments of "GaMe Is ScRiPtEd"?

[fc.cadoni]

Vicious cycle between Height and Jumping Reach in FM Community. 

[wazzaflow10]

6 hours ago, Mitja said:

Doesnt tell us anything? How would you test meta attributes than? You need to put extreme values. 

The team of ca 180-190 veterans should walk the league not being relegated. 

It tells us that the match engine can't handle something this extreme. That's about it. You can't divide by zero either. The whole world of math isn't broken because of it. You just get extreme values in the form of +/- infinity.

There's no one in the world that has this kind of attribute distribution or would ever have this kind of attribute distribution without editing. As a result, this isn't something that was likely tested during development. You have to remember they have limited time and focus to make things work in the context of the real world. Its not worth the time and computing power to make up some crazy extreme limit test and then spend development time fixing a problem that would never happen organically in the game.

It would be a more compelling test/conclusion using real players or newgen players who fit these two profiles as best as possible. But that's also not the end of the test parameters. There's variables like tactics and morale and a whole bunch of other factors you have to account for too.

CA isn't the be all end all of the game. If it was, then it would just be a matter of getting the top 11 players in the world and clicking any generic tactic and smash every competition. Thankfully for us the game is much more complex than that. It's entirely possible in FM to win with lower CA players if you carefully construct your squad and tailor your tactic to highlight their strengths and hide their weaknesses.

[wazzaflow10]

14 minutes ago, Dotsworthy said:

Height dictates a players min and max jumping reach and does not cost CA. Jumping Reach costs CA and is weighted.

Height itself has no bearing on the ME

Height determines if the player has to jump or not. So it absolutely is a factor in the ME.

[dℍaisa]

A random Chinese goalkeeper made it to the world's top 50 players (10-Nov-2027):

And has a reputation of 5 stars somehow:

[samrnpage]

I know that CA/PA of 180/190 should walk the league - but realistically a team with 1s or 10s in most attributes still wont do well. 

[wazzaflow10]

2 hours ago, Dotsworthy said:

SI have responded in this thread previously to confirm that is not the case.

Originally height and jumping were seperate and did impact the ME but jumping reach was brought in to simplify it.

Yes jumping reach was brought in to simplify jumping crossed with height due to confusion around comparing someone like Crouch v Cahill aerial ability in older versions. It effectively measures how high a player can jump and is more or less bounded by the height of the player. 

How do you determine if someone has to jump if you don't have height included in the engine? Its just basic logic. Additionally, if two players have the same jumping reach a taller player has a small advantage.

[brawler]

On 04/02/2024 at 08:03, Mitja said:

Yes but you're here long enough to know the game's not worth buying before last patch and there's demo to try too. By doing the opposite you are actually supporting SI policy. 

I stopped playing the game after fm21, same issues year after year, minimal progress, defending looks like 12 years old play etc.

Agree. I had the policy of buying the game after the last patch and have done for the last  4 or 5 editions. Skipped last years edition completely though after what i read.

However this time FM24 I thought I will give it a go and buy on release, yep bad mistake, suckered in by wording and features, never again will I buy untill i have read reviews on the last patch.

I echo most of the negative comments on here. This is the most flawed edition out of them all. Not enjoyable unfortunately. 

A big issue for me is player interaction and this is just one of many issues..... as an example, squad player (new to the squad), I leave out of Champions League Squad, not good enough to be in the squad and i tell him so. The player has a meltdown, which then leads to 6 players, 4 of them my best players having mini tantrums because I've left out a new signing who is a squad player (the player hasnt had time to build relationships with the squad as yet). I am then monitored on how I treat players over the coming months and the player has set a goal for me to reduce the amount of unhappy players at the squad (didnt have any unhappy players up until this point, who does he think he is anyway, hes a squad player with zero influence for goodness sake. End result, team starts to underperform.

There isn't a single option you can use to appease the unhappy player, unless you lie and tell them they will be added at the next round of squad registrations, which is just ridiculous.

Feels like Football Morale Manager.

[fc.cadoni]

4 hours ago, dℍaisa said:

A random Chinese goalkeeper made it to the world's top 50 players (10-Nov-2027):

And has a reputation of 5 stars somehow:

I had the same, but from Brazil.

All leagues / nations / players loaded and playable. No custom database.

He end up 27 y/o to play for Amateur club. 

[jeru]

About this experiment however you view it as flawed or unrealistic as players with that attribute spread would not exist, what can’t be argued is the logic that a good big one beats a good small one every time in FM and it’s been that way for ever across all versions. 
 

The reason jumping reach and pace are the most important attributes is linked to the football concepts the engine is programmed to - it’s essentially modelled on 90’s English football, get it wide and get it in the box that is what it is, that’s the reason jumping reach is important the shear number of crosses lofted into the box. Pace is important on counters and the like but you can’t have a small technical team and succeed on FM

This is most seen recently with Pep getting sacked almost every save, why? Because Man City is full of small technical players and those players perform badly in the engine, same reason why FM Ronaldo was always better than FM Messi - FM Ronaldo wins far post headers, Messi doesn’t. 
 

The only reason AI pep has done better last two FM’s is because he signed Haaland in real life - quick and wins headers is enough to keep AI pep his job longer. Exactly the same reason that AI de Zerbi at Brighton always loses his job early this year and quite often Brighton are relegated - they have a squad of small technical players that can’t win headers so the have less chance of scoring and get low match ratings which tanks morale and thus they lose often. 
 

nothing will ever change unless SI bring modern football concepts into the game and realise play goes wide to move defences to make space not to get a wide player to run like forest gump to the byline to either stand up a far post lofted cross or smash it against a defender for a corner, until true possession concepts are implemented and crossing football prevail then jumping reach and pace will always be the most important attributes. 

[janrzm]

Watching my player run away from a pass will always break my heart.......

[akkm]

43 minutes ago, jeru said:

About this experiment however you view it as flawed or unrealistic as players with that attribute spread would not exist, what can’t be argued is the logic that a good big one beats a good small one every time in FM and it’s been that way for ever across all versions. 
 

The reason jumping reach and pace are the most important attributes is linked to the football concepts the engine is programmed to - it’s essentially modelled on 90’s English football, get it wide and get it in the box that is what it is, that’s the reason jumping reach is important the shear number of crosses lofted into the box. Pace is important on counters and the like but you can’t have a small technical team and succeed on FM

This is most seen recently with Pep getting sacked almost every save, why? Because Man City is full of small technical players and those players perform badly in the engine, same reason why FM Ronaldo was always better than FM Messi - FM Ronaldo wins far post headers, Messi doesn’t. 
 

The only reason AI pep has done better last two FM’s is because he signed Haaland in real life - quick and wins headers is enough to keep AI pep his job longer. Exactly the same reason that AI de Zerbi at Brighton always loses his job early this year and quite often Brighton are relegated - they have a squad of small technical players that can’t win headers so the have less chance of scoring and get low match ratings which tanks morale and thus they lose often. 
 

nothing will ever change unless SI bring modern football concepts into the game and realise play goes wide to move defences to make space not to get a wide player to run like forest gump to the byline to either stand up a far post lofted cross or smash it against a defender for a corner, until true possession concepts are implemented and crossing football prevail then jumping reach and pace will always be the most important attributes. 

that's well said. Essentially too much of the core engine is based on english football wide/cross concepts of the past. It's not even modern football concepts more basic concepts of passing and moving and a different vision of the game than the wide/cross nonsense (but I get what you mean with that). I mean in terms of technical and vision attributes you see even at kids level and 5/7/11 aside at any level...FM match engine doesn't simulate these well meaning a fundamental way to create is very often absent or very very limited almost every year.

When changes get made the core elements (wide/cross) become too prominent again. 

It's time for once and for all to teach the AI/simulate better fundamental decision making so the match engine can produce better football and break away from the stuck in mud progress with wide/cross being too much of a crutch to create chances and goals when other aspects are lacking.

At this stage it's difficult to understand why it's not being done. It may well be the view of football isn't seeing it but it's about time things are done better. It's frustrating to keep having to endure repeated patterns over and over again

[Rodrigogc]

16 minutos atrás, akkm disse:

that's well said. Essentially too much of the core engine is based on english football wide/cross concepts of the past. It's not even modern football concepts more basic concepts of passing and moving and a different vision of the game than the wide/cross nonsense (but I get what you mean with that). I mean in terms of technical and vision attributes you see even at kids level and 5/7/11 aside at any level...FM match engine doesn't simulate these well meaning a fundamental way to create is very often absent or very very limited almost every year.

When changes get made the core elements (wide/cross) become too prominent again. 

It's time for once and for all to teach the AI/simulate better fundamental decision making so the match engine can produce better football and break away from the stuck in mud progress with wide/cross being too much of a crutch to create chances and goals when other aspects are lacking.

At this stage it's difficult to understand why it's not being done. It may well be the view of football isn't seeing it but it's about time things are done better. It's frustrating to keep having to endure repeated patterns over and over again

Either they don't know how to change it without messing the other well functioning elements of the engine or they simply don't see the flaws and  think it is okay to keep it that way. I suppose the way they see football has a heavier weight, because football is played and viewed differently in many countries. I'm brazilian, so my concept of dribbling is very different from what FM presents (In FM dribbling is essentially carrying the ball forward. You tell a Central Defender to dribble more, you're telling him to carry the ball forward), in Brazil dribbling is more associated with the attribute Flair, meaning capacity to do something with the ball to get the opposition out of the way and break defenses. I assume (And I may be wrong) englishmen see something like running and crossing effectively is great, and that is fine. Probably Spanishmen think passing the ball effectively is better...

 

This is what lacks in FM. Basically you have to stick to what the ME is about. Different ways of playing are not rewarded the same way if you have the right players to execute them. Like someone said earlier, at this stage we should be discussing what type of playing would be effective in La Liga, what would be effective in Bundesliga, what would be effective in Eredvise, but we are stuck with the same one dimensional football where you just need to figure out what the ME will punish and reward and then make your choice. 

Edited February 10 by Rodrigogc

[whatsupdoc]

Does anyone have a 4-3-3 (one DM) working well in this? 

[jeru]

43 minutes ago, akkm said:

that's well said. Essentially too much of the core engine is based on english football wide/cross concepts of the past. It's not even modern football concepts more basic concepts of passing and moving and a different vision of the game than the wide/cross nonsense (but I get what you mean with that). I mean in terms of technical and vision attributes you see even at kids level and 5/7/11 aside at any level...FM match engine doesn't simulate these well meaning a fundamental way to create is very often absent or very very limited almost every year.

When changes get made the core elements (wide/cross) become too prominent again. 

It's time for once and for all to teach the AI/simulate better fundamental decision making so the match engine can produce better football and break away from the stuck in mud progress with wide/cross being too much of a crutch to create chances and goals when other aspects are lacking.

At this stage it's difficult to understand why it's not being done. It may well be the view of football isn't seeing it but it's about time things are done better. It's frustrating to keep having to endure repeated patterns over and over again

I think the major issue is in software design terms I think it’s essentialy a one vs one challenge based game I don’t think the other players are active in the calculations it’s one vs one. This means that the most major concept of football - defensive team shape doesn’t really exist, the classic two banks of four defence shifting with the play and condensing space between the lines doesn’t exist in FM. Players don’t react to other players in their own team or the ball position it’s basically the nearest two players of each team react to the ball and then there are calculations as to what happens. I think that everything is essentially a one vs one and when trying to simulate a team sport that doesn’t really work. 
 

If defensive shape and lines shifted according to the ball going wide, recycling and pulling teams shape apart would be the name of the game, just like real football but as it is now getting the best meta players - tall quick - that wins you more one vs ones and thus wins you games. 

[wazzaflow10]

7 hours ago, brawler said:

A big issue for me is player interaction and this is just one of many issues..... as an example, squad player (new to the squad), I leave out of Champions League Squad, not good enough to be in the squad and i tell him so. The player has a meltdown, which then leads to 6 players, 4 of them my best players having mini tantrums because I've left out a new signing who is a squad player (the player hasnt had time to build relationships with the squad as yet). I am then monitored on how I treat players over the coming months and the player has set a goal for me to reduce the amount of unhappy players at the squad (didnt have any unhappy players up until this point, who does he think he is anyway, hes a squad player with zero influence for goodness sake. End result, team starts to underperform.

There isn't a single option you can use to appease the unhappy player, unless you lie and tell them they will be added at the next round of squad registrations, which is just ridiculous.

Feels like Football Morale Manager.

What do you think 75% of the job is being a manager? You have to deal with the personalities on your squad. When something bubbles up either you screwed up, the squad doesn't respect you, or your man management/discipline traits are too low for the level you're managing to prevent it from being an issue.

Really if anything there isn't enough unrest in this game of any consequence. Its very easy to just ignore players and wait them out. Especially once you're established at a club.

[Ein]

It's too simplistic and one-dimensional e.g. having a high level of discipline is better -- you just get less player complaints. Instead, it should only rub off on certain personalities and create problems with others. Most things have no trade-offs. So if you want to limit player interactions, ensure your LoD is as high as possible and fill your squad with players with good personalities.

[Mitja]

8 hours ago, jeru said:

About this experiment however you view it as flawed or unrealistic as players with that attribute spread would not exist, what can’t be argued is the logic that a good big one beats a good small one every time in FM and it’s been that way for ever across all versions. 
 

The reason jumping reach and pace are the most important attributes is linked to the football concepts the engine is programmed to - it’s essentially modelled on 90’s English football, get it wide and get it in the box that is what it is, that’s the reason jumping reach is important the shear number of crosses lofted into the box. Pace is important on counters and the like but you can’t have a small technical team and succeed on FM

This is most seen recently with Pep getting sacked almost every save, why? Because Man City is full of small technical players and those players perform badly in the engine, same reason why FM Ronaldo was always better than FM Messi - FM Ronaldo wins far post headers, Messi doesn’t. 
 

The only reason AI pep has done better last two FM’s is because he signed Haaland in real life - quick and wins headers is enough to keep AI pep his job longer. Exactly the same reason that AI de Zerbi at Brighton always loses his job early this year and quite often Brighton are relegated - they have a squad of small technical players that can’t win headers so the have less chance of scoring and get low match ratings which tanks morale and thus they lose often. 
 

nothing will ever change unless SI bring modern football concepts into the game and realise play goes wide to move defences to make space not to get a wide player to run like forest gump to the byline to either stand up a far post lofted cross or smash it against a defender for a corner, until true possession concepts are implemented and crossing football prevail then jumping reach and pace will always be the most important attributes. 

In FM 21 I posted pkms of games where attacking AI teams like Liverpool had 100 crosses in matchwith 40 shots but still lost possession battle. I remind that average crosses per game is around 15 in epl maybe less. I've also shown that a match played on lower mentalities never hits those crazy numbers. Also football starts looking similar to what it should be. I'm talking about FM 21 on control or higher mentality players start running with ball instead of passing. You get that gung ho approach, running down the line to cross the ball like there's no tomorrow.

We had discussions about this as long as I remember. It looks like it so much hard coded into ME it's not possible to get rid of it. But it's also completely outdated from today's football reality and what's even worse is that the ME is capable to degree to play something which looks like football but sticking to outdated underlaying tactical mechanisms is holding back the game. Now with transition instructions being added which is great it should be the other way around, it's the attacking approach which should be patient to control possession in opponents half. Just get rid of mentality work a little on defending and you have a brand new ME. I'm sure PaulC would understand that. 

[Jamieac]

Pretty sure this was one of the best GK displays I have ever seen in my FM career to date....It was from bloody Kepa as well 

[santy001]

Hid a couple of posts since the discussion points don't make any with some of the initial posts in turn having been removed by their posters. Just a general bit of guidance though when it comes to paraphrasing anything an SI employee has posted in the past keep in mind their comments are often in regards to very specific scenarios. 

[zeza]

When are we supposed to expect a new patch/hotfix?

Scouting/Recruitment Focus is broken for almost 3 months and the best answer we got is that our parameters are too narrow.