Football Manager 2024 Official Feedback Thread

[Dadecane]

Daveincid is a legend

[Kevinho7]

2 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

That was the goal of it and I'm glad it worked

I so keen on giving your realism pack a go when the december update has dropped

[tezcatlipoca665]

17 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

4231 gegepress + injury mod. 3rd, 11 points behind Feyenoord, struggling during english weeks.

 

End of the season: Well....i can't say because I was being sacked in March 24. 


Gegepress-tactics are getting way too less punishement (-> not enough injuries). So SI can't please everyone. At least with my injuries-mod, you won't fly through holiday-mode winning everything  

I was wondering before why Gegenpress tactics weren't as successful in my FM23 saves by comparison to other people complaining that it was overpowered, and I guess your mod was the reason. Does your injury mod force the AI managers to consider their tactics more (basically using less intensity), or just give them greater consequences and they keep using the tactics anyway?

[Daveincid]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb tezcatlipoca665:

Does your injury mod force the AI managers to consider their tactics more (basically using less intensity), or just give them greater consequences and they keep using the tactics anyway?

I'm not a dev so I can't answer thr question about how they focus the tactic. Greater consequences 100%

[whatsupdoc]

Is there any way to get an assist map from the data analysts? I.e. where all your assists have come from over a season / many matches.

[craiigman]

28 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Is there any way to get an assist map from the data analysts? I.e. where all your assists have come from over a season / many matches.

Not a map so much, but you can get this still

[whatsupdoc]

16 minutes ago, craiigman said:

Not a map so much, but you can get this still

Cheers, was hoping for more detail! 

With the amount of detail you can get on some stuff I'm surprised it's not possible to see assist locations. 

Those zones are huge and the wide areas include set peices so... yeah.. not saying much is it!

Edited November 25, 2023 by whatsupdoc

[whatsupdoc]

It'd also be great to be able to break down set peices by showing which routines have scored and which haven't.

[Pasonen]

4 hours ago, SaintEtienne said:

Gegenpress is a tactic that should require weeks, months, perhaps even a few seasons to get consistently right. It should require very careful squad building to get the right players for such a high-risk-high-reward set up. It should require extensive training ground preparation and match experience over a long period of time to get it working consistently well. But in FM, gegenpress is too simply implemented: it seems that any side, no matter the standard or abilities of the players, can get good results from it almost instantly. In other words, FM reflects the rewards of gegenpress, but very few of the risks.

You said it perfectly! I think we could even say whole game is a too much rewards and less risks. (Mistakes) Even in twitter SI is constantly asking how many goals have you scored or how many championships you got? Like I've said before AI Vs AI world is the core of this game and the intelligence of AI is the measure how much skills can be demanded from the manager (player). Meaning gegenpress is too rewarding for anyone because SI could easily make it harder to obtain and human would adapt to it in time, but unfortunately AI would be too stupid and they would continue making same mistakes and collapse via not trying.

[whatsupdoc]

On 15/11/2023 at 21:38, whatsupdoc said:

Gave Martial 1 for work rate, stamina, teamwork.

Gave Rashford 20 for work rate, stamina, teamwork.

Default 4-2-4 gegenpress with both players set as pressing forward (attack).

700 metre difference for a total of 57 stat points. The obvious conclusion (which everyone has already come to anyway) is that you don't suffer many serious consequences for putting a totally unsuitable player in a high pressing tactic. 

 

Reloaded, same players, same focus. 4-4-2 park the bus. Rashford (hard worker) set as trequartista, Martial (lazy) set as pressing forward (attack).

2.2km difference. 

I guess the conclusion based on a 2 match test is that stats matter a little, but system matters a lot.

 

Attributes in general don't make enough of a difference. See above.

One could argue that over 90 minutes, if you really forced a lazy player, that he could keep up. 

The stamina would certainly come into play in back to back matches. 

But leaving stamina aside, there clearly needs to be a larger impact for work rate and team work. 

 

This is also true of attributes like tackling and marking for defenders.

Edited November 25, 2023 by whatsupdoc

[akkm]

6 hours ago, Dadecane said:

Gengen press is the most dominant tactic in world football IRL today. The game properly reflects that. My only (minor) issue would be that it should not work as well with just any talent, or small clubs. But still one could argue its still the tactic most teams are finding success with IRL, big league or little league. 

Give examples of the teams using this most dominant tactic please

Do u mean the tactic most used or the tactic that is dominating over others because we know with 100% certainty not the most dominant one success wise as evidenced by man city last year

Edited November 25, 2023 by akkm

[whatsupdoc]

6 hours ago, Dadecane said:

Gengen press is the most dominant tactic in world football IRL today. The game properly reflects that. My only (minor) issue would be that it should not work as well with just any talent, or small clubs. But still one could argue its still the tactic most teams are finding success with IRL, big league or little league. 

It's really not! Argentina won the world cup without pressing high... Madrid have won most of the decades champions leagues with a bunch of 30+ midfielders... 

Klopp's football is devastating when it works but it takes him years to perfect. It's football on a knife edge... One player not nailing it makes it swiss cheese. 

[2feet]

27 minutes ago, akkm said:

Give examples of the teams using this most dominant tactic please

Do u mean the tactic most used or the tactic that is dominating over others because we know with 100% certainty not the most dominant one success wise as evidenced by man city last year

Man City are known for pressing high up the pitch and winning the ball back as quickly as possible if they lose it.

[Kevinho7]

I know patience is a virtue. But mannn this update can’t come soon enough. 

All fired up to finally start the proper longterm save, hopefully with a somewhat fixed game. Come on now! 😋

[akkm]

1 minute ago, 2feet said:

Man City are known for pressing high up the pitch and winning the ball back as quickly as possible if they lose it.

as a complement to their main style. All styles should complement their basic methods with hard work and elements of pressing. I'm not saying you're suggesting man city style is gegenpressing because it's 100% clearly not that at all

There should be more of a distinction between gegenpressing and pressing/hard work. For sure elements of it are more organised these days but there's always been pressing/hard work/closing down by teams...including possession teams who press/press high to win the ball back...but that doesn't mean it's their predominant style. Teams press high/mid/low as well sometimes with working hard/closing down. It's always been a feature of football and it always will be. Didn't Ian Rush press from the front in those Liverpool teams/saachi's Milan...heck even Jack Charlton's Ireland lol .

With klopp over the years his predominant style has been gegenpressing...you can see how in interviews how often he emphasises how good liverpool's counter press is...as that's what he wants...his comment  "No playmaker in the world can be as good as a good counter-pressing situation" sums his view up but of course guardiola's body of work has proved otherwise and that klopp is incorrect in that assertion. 

as @whatsupdochas pointed out gegenpressing is absolutely not the most successful tactic these days. Sure, teams utilise pressing but it's usually complementing their overall style.

One of the reasons why gegenpressing works so well in FM is pass decision making still isn't simulated as well as it could be and therefore elements of intelligent pass choice and creativity to unpick passing traps just aren't there. That's also one of the main reasons why Guardiola tactics within FM just don't do what they do in the real world. Teams just cannot pass & move and operate in tight spaces in FM as well as their skilled counterparts in the real world can. It's the area that requires most work in the match engine as only at that point where pass decision making is simulated as well as it can be then defensive elements can actually be simulated as well as they need to be to counter this.

Until then we will continue to see the difficulty in balancing the engine as efforts to implement pressing/very solid defensive methods will just shut down good play too easily as it wasn't simulated well enough in the first place

[Emozil]

Apologies if its already been answered. but whats wrong with Argentina in full release? seen people say the league needs to be fixed. Planning on a Quilmes save so holding fire until thats sorted. 

[whatsupdoc]

The way to fix the issues with Gegenpress (sadly) isn't a ME / tactical effort. The game hasn't changed much from its base for 6 or 7 years, it would be impossible to make significant changes now without unforseen problems.

Increasing physical penalties when asked to play at high tempo and press all game when you don't have the squad or stats for it seems like a simpler solution and one that could possibly figure in a December update.

Edited November 25, 2023 by whatsupdoc

[themadsheep2001]

Gegenpress might be the most misused term in football. Lots of teams use high pressing and counter pressing, very few use Gegenpressing. Similarly while Gegenpressing might be perhaps too easy to set up, the use of high pressing and counter pressing is widespread and also goes down football pyramids

[Kevinho7]

38 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

The way to fix the issues with Gegenpress (sadly) isn't a ME / tactical effort. The game hasn't changed much from its base for 6 or 7 years, it would be impossible to make significant changes now without unforseen problems.

Increasing physical penalties when asked to play at high tempo and press all game when you don't have the squad or stats for it seems like a simpler solution and one that could possibly figure in a December update.

This is why I’m definitely going to play with Daveincid’s mods in my save after the update drops. He’s given me a very very interesting reply earlier today proving the outcome can differ when higher penalties are given when constantly employing a maxed out intensity tactic 😋

[whatsupdoc]

15 minutes ago, Kevinho7 said:

This is why I’m definitely going to play with Daveincid’s mods in my save after the update drops. He’s given me a very very interesting reply earlier today proving the outcome can differ when higher penalties are given when constantly employing a maxed out intensity tactic 😋

What does his mod actually tweak? 

Pre game editor data or like actual coded stuff?

Edited November 25, 2023 by whatsupdoc

[andu1]

To nerf gegenpress I would just increase the fatigue level of players with stamina under a certain number, lets say 15.Basically make a leap from 14 to 15 so that players under 15 tire quicker and cant run as efficient anymore... Something drastic so if you play gegenpress with Sheff Utd for example you get battered after a certain minute

[StevehFC]

Don't know if anyone else has this issue. I have majority of my players in my squad in the playing time happiness tab stuck at concerned when players have player nearly every single game. 

[whatsupdoc]

What star ratings do you put in for current and potential ability when setting up scouting?

I find asking for anything over 3 stars finds you nobody at all for years.

 

[Dotsworthy]

9 hours ago, whatsupdoc said:

What does his mod actually tweak? 

Pre game editor data or like actual coded stuff?

He changes pre game editor data, but it can be quite impactful.

9 hours ago, andu1 said:

To nerf gegenpress I would just increase the fatigue level of players with stamina under a certain number, lets say 15.Basically make a leap from 14 to 15 so that players under 15 tire quicker and cant run as efficient anymore... Something drastic so if you play gegenpress with Sheff Utd for example you get battered after a certain minute

You could also argue too many players in the game have high levels of stamina.

Given the discussion on here on gegenpress tactics, I wonder if players are just too good at deciding to play it safe and ignore their tactical instructions. It's very rare to actually see teams overpressing and getting caught. I'm not even sure nerfing stamina would work and giving players less autonomy would be the solution.

[bobbyb12345]

11 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Gegenpress might be the most misused term in football. Lots of teams use high pressing and counter pressing, very few use Gegenpressing. Similarly while Gegenpressing might be perhaps too easy to set up, the use of high pressing and counter pressing is widespread and also goes down football pyramids

And none of this happens in the match engine. 

[themadsheep2001]

25 minutes ago, bobbyb12345 said:

And none of this happens in the match engine. 

None of what? If you mean counter pressing and high pressing it does

[whatsupdoc]

1 hour ago, Dotsworthy said:

He changes pre game editor data, but it can be quite impactful.

You could also argue too many players in the game have high levels of stamina.

Given the discussion on here on gegenpress tactics, I wonder if players are just too good at deciding to play it safe and ignore their tactical instructions. It's very rare to actually see teams overpressing and getting caught. I'm not even sure nerfing stamina would work and giving players less autonomy would be the solution.

 

Oh yeah. I made a DB and tweaked all the managers in the EPL to buy more players, as well as adjusting CA. Made it a bit more challenging. 

[andu1]

3 hours ago, whatsupdoc said:

What star ratings do you put in for current and potential ability when setting up scouting?

I find asking for anything over 3 stars finds you nobody at all for years.

 

Dunno man... scouting is bugged for me this year.. Im setting it up exactly like you did it here just that it's only for one nation and i get no hits.. And they're not even scouting anyone. And i have the league loaded, so that's not the issue...

[andu1]

When i leave my chief scout to do the focuses i get results, but he's not doing the focuses i want. And the ones i made myself remain empty...

[whatsupdoc]

2 minutes ago, andu1 said:

When i leave my chief scout to do the focuses i get results, but he's not doing the focuses i want. And the ones i made myself remain empty...

Yeah I find this too. Or if I manually scout youth national teams obviously I'll get results but... creating a focus I typically get nothing or next to nothing.

[andu1]

5 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Yeah I find this too. Or if I manually scout youth national teams obviously I'll get results but... creating a focus I typically get nothing or next to nothing.

Yeah, if i select a bunch of players and i click scout on all they scout them... Focuses are bugged IMO

[Sweecoon]

I feel like the effects of the various tactical instructions (and even player roles to some extent) are too obscure.

FM15 and 16 had a guide someone wrote called Lines and Diamonds which completely changed how I played the game. For example, the pass into space option. The game itself says something vague like “tells players to make more passes into open space”, but lines and diamonds said something like “increases passing risk for all players by one setting, increases passing directness by one setting, and increases forward runs by one setting”. This is so much clearer in terms of what actually gets changed in the match engine.

Returning to the game now having stuck to those older games for years, I appreciate many of the changes but feel so many instructions are just too vaguely described and lack  documentation. Like be more expressive. It seems to be combining the old “be more expressive” instruction with the old “roam from positions” instruction? But I have no idea how or to what extent. Some people seem to think it makes players less likely to follow your instructions and more likely to follow their preferred moves. Some people think it just increases the likelihood of tricks and ambitious passing. I am left not really knowing and not really able to make clear tactical choices.

I feel like if I ever want to properly understand what an option does, I have to go on the forums where I will be met with 3 or 4 different threads containing posts by 11 or 12 different people with about 20 contradictory opinions between them. So I am left frustratingly resetting matches over and over again with different options selected to try and deduce what is actually going on.

Is there any more definitive documentation at all? The manual helps somewhat but still leaves me with lots of questions. 

[RandomGuy.]

There is a genuinely fantastic Football Manager game hiding below the issues with how pressing seems to break something in the ME. This Preston save is exactly what I'd wanted.

Took a while to get going with a 4-2-3-1 shape, but we seemed far too weak defensively ending with West Brom thumping us. Moved the 3-5-2 after that and things improving, helped by the 4/5 injured players coming back into things.

 

[bobbyb12345]

2 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

None of what? If you mean counter pressing and high pressing it does

There's plenty of closing down, but I've never seen a press involving multiple players (on multiple players) in FM.

[craiigman]

1 hour ago, andu1 said:

When i leave my chief scout to do the focuses i get results, but he's not doing the focuses i want. And the ones i made myself remain empty...

 

1 hour ago, whatsupdoc said:

Yeah I find this too. Or if I manually scout youth national teams obviously I'll get results but... creating a focus I typically get nothing or next to nothing.

 

1 hour ago, andu1 said:

Yeah, if i select a bunch of players and i click scout on all they scout them... Focuses are bugged IMO

You know what, I also had this, I have however deleted the save I was playing with it, the only save I have currently is done by the scount. Well worth raising a bug report though.

I honestly just thought it was because there hadn't been enough game time to populate, but it was always empty. If I start a new save I will try it again and add to the report if you make one.

[Jack Joyce]

On 24/11/2023 at 18:21, stopazricky said:

I'm going to go as far as quoting @Jack Joyce into this conversation. A growing portion of players feels more and more like virtually all the mechanics of the games are placebo. Through the work of Evidence Based Football Manager, this is being put to test in a scientific manner and increasingly proven to be true.

I would love to hear official feedback from SI about it. Not necessarily here, not necessarily now, but I believe they simply can't afford to ignore this - from a moral perspective, not monetary, of course.

If there's ONE thing I wish we'll get with Unity-based FM is precisely this - the game actually behaving the way it's supposed to, and the way it says it does. A glaring example is training penalties, which... should improve penalties. How quickly? How much? At what age? I don't know, but it should do something, something at all.

Would need to see specific examples - but I wouldn't call what Evidence Based FM does "proof" by any stretch of the imagination. I've been sent their stuff before.

For example in the post you're replying to - Marking absolutely does have an effect in the ME, almost every aspect of tracking runs and defending against dribbling factors in marking.

It can be very easy for misinformation like this to spread from flawed tests, often without much scrutiny on how those tests were carried out.

[whatsupdoc]

1 hour ago, Jack Joyce said:

Would need to see specific examples - but I wouldn't call what Evidence Based FM does "proof" by any stretch of the imagination. I've been sent their stuff before.

For example in the post you're replying to - Marking absolutely does have an effect in the ME, almost every aspect of tracking runs and defending against dribbling factors in marking.

It can be very easy for misinformation like this to spread from flawed tests, often without much scrutiny on how those tests were carried out.

A lot of his stuff shows a basic lack of football knowledge. 

The one on "step up VS drop off" having no impact on positioning over 90 minutes was silly. 

People are more referring to things like pressing where you can give players 1/20 for work rate, team work and stamina and over the course of 90 minutes their total distance covered will be within 700metres of someone with 20 for all of the same stats. 

Or generally speaking that you can play pressing tactics without the stats required as the players are hard coded to move in a certain way that isn't varied enough by the individual attributes.

Thanks for taking the time to reply btw, and on a sunday

Edited November 26, 2023 by whatsupdoc

[Kevinho7]

Some info for the people who want to vote:

Personally I’ll skip this year tho for known reasons. Redeem yourself, step up the game, so next year my vote will be back again 🙏🏻

This game has now been a significant part of my life for over 22 years, and I still love the game very much. Only this year the game has been a letdown up until now unfortunately.

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Kevinho7

[Leon_fogo]

I fully appreciate an insane transfer market, of course we have to value realism. But as I play in Brazil and here there are many transfers that I think are a good example:
- Players returning to end their careers
- Great football stars coming to play for the country's fame
- Players returning on loan to their original clubs

This could be better represented in the game, I think it's one of the things I dreamed of most whenever I played FM years ago, since 2012 I've been having this idea.

Another fact that could be better explored is social media, more news that influences the game such as:
Fans and polls
City or club situations such as commemorative dates, news from players using social networks that generate repercussions.

The club's atmosphere can become heavier or lighter depending on situations in the championships as well as more celebration of our achievements.

 

[stopazricky]

1 ora fa, Jack Joyce ha scritto:

Would need to see specific examples - but I wouldn't call what Evidence Based FM does "proof" by any stretch of the imagination. I've been sent their stuff before.

For example in the post you're replying to - Marking absolutely does have an effect in the ME, almost every aspect of tracking runs and defending against dribbling factors in marking.

It can be very easy for misinformation like this to spread from flawed tests, often without much scrutiny on how those tests were carried out.

Thanks for the reply. I'll accept the point that "proof" might be excessive.

I'll bring you one more example: here (FM23), and here (FM22), data is provided which seems to suggest that most training sessions achieve slightly different things from what they say they do, and some of them achieve completely different things.

Some of his tests also concluded that Penalty training never achieves anything at all, and most famously, he didn't seem to be able to detect any effect on game results when testing Match Preparation sessions in FM23.

These instances can lead us players to doubt about every single aspect of the game, because it shows that in-game descriptions cannot be taken at face value, and because some mechanics, when tested in a seemingly convincing controlled manner, don't seem to do much.

 

[dℍaisa]

[Domoboy23]

20 minutes ago, dℍaisa said:

Brilliant, actually made me smile. It's clearly in for a laugh (if you're unsure look at the DHOTYA on twitter). I bet everyone stood up and applauded afterwards!

[XaW]

2 hours ago, dℍaisa said:

[WelshMourinho]

Considering there was a focus on tactical styles and how ai managers were going to look to recruit in line with those, I can't help but feel I'm seeing very little of these different styles in game. 

I want to see a wing play style absolutely bombarding me down the wing, and I want to see a vertical tiki taka team slicing through me straight up the pitch. But none of this is happening, Every single team I have played against with a 'wing play' style has used inverted full backs, inverted wingbacks and inverting wingers. I have played Castilla I think 4 times over the previous 3 seasons, and the first time all 4 wide players were inverting. They did finally introduce a winger in the season season but the other 3 were all inverting. I've played Celta, and again, everyone inverting. 

Like it doesn't matter if I play Real Madrid or a team near the bottom, it's just very repetitive. Throw ins and corners just seem to be the focus, no matter what the style of the opposition utilises. I'm not sure how much can even be done about that with this current engine, but that's just how it plays right now.

[craiigman]

12 minutes ago, XaW said:

[Matej]

23 hours ago, krkyseventwo said:

It took Klopp a number of years to achieve success with his heavy-metal football style at Liverpool. He needed the right players and eventually struck gold. This is nowhere near reflected in-game and it's a sad state of affairs. You can just walk into any club at any level, pick gengenpress as your tactic and regardless of your players individual qualities or attributes, they will succeed beyond their capabilities. 

Not to mention that Klopp with his  gengenpress in Premiership won 1 title in 8 years. Just one. So please, i dont know whats Man City formation and tactic in FM ( control possession?)  , but it must be better by default then gegenpress. And belive me i really dont like Man City, but facts are facts. 

[Kingsls]

Random question, has anyone seen retired players being hired as managers or staff by clubs in FM24?
 

This used to be a common occurrence in past FMs in my experience, but I haven’t seen it much this year. Granted, I’m three seasons in, so not too far yet but I’m sure I’ve seen retired players land jobs after that timeframe before in past FMs (especially those that retire after the first season)

So yeah…has anyone seen stuff like that in FM24 yet?

Edited November 27, 2023 by Kingsls

[StevehFC]

2 hours ago, Kingsls said:

Random question, has anyone seen retired players being hired as managers or staff by clubs in FM24?
 

This used to be a common occurrence in past FMs in my experience, but I haven’t seen it much this year. Granted, I’m three seasons in, so not too far yet but I’m sure I’ve seen retired players land jobs after that timeframe before (especially those that retire after the first season)

So yeah…has anyone seen stuff like that in FM24 yet?

I had a player retire at the end of my first season and signed him as a staff member. 

[Kingsls]

30 minutes ago, StevehFC said:

I had a player retire at the end of my first season and signed him as a staff member. 

Oh I didn’t mean you sign him, I mean the AI clubs sign them

[Sunstrikuuu]

4 hours ago, Matej said:

Not to mention that Klopp with his  gengenpress in Premiership won 1 title in 8 years. Just one. So please, i dont know whats Man City formation and tactic in FM ( control possession?)  , but it must be better by default then gegenpress. And belive me i really dont like Man City, but facts are facts. 

I don't think Liverpool v City is a referendum on tactics; I think it's simply that more money enables more resilient squads.  Bigger wage spend = more players of higher CA, in FM terms.  Liverpool's first eleven is a match for City's.  Liverpool's second eleven is not.  No one's is.