Goals Galore

[Myuhas42]

Hey I am a long time player of FM, and just wondering if anyone else is experiencing this. I'm playing as Hull City and playing a 4-4-2 wing play formation. Slightly modified, I am noticing that my team is highly clinical. Like almost too clinical if i get 3 shots on goal, I score 3. I don't take a lot of shots overall and my team doesn't have alot of possession. But no matter what I do I am still letting up 1 to many and losing 4-3. It just seems like every game this is the score and I am unsure how to remedy this or if it is a known issue as many of the opposing goals are from 25 yards out curlers into top corner. I can post pictures of my tactic when I get home if anyone wants to see that.

[KeiranShikari]

I think it's pretty universal. I'd be surprised if it wasn't one of the things that gets a big change going into the full release.

[Jonthedon26]

2 hours ago, Myuhas42 said:

Hey I am a long time player of FM, and just wondering if anyone else is experiencing this. I'm playing as Hull City and playing a 4-4-2 wing play formation. Slightly modified, I am noticing that my team is highly clinical. Like almost too clinical if i get 3 shots on goal, I score 3. I don't take a lot of shots overall and my team doesn't have alot of possession. But no matter what I do I am still letting up 1 to many and losing 4-3. It just seems like every game this is the score and I am unsure how to remedy this or if it is a known issue as many of the opposing goals are from 25 yards out curlers into top corner. I can post pictures of my tactic when I get home if anyone wants to see that.

I play the same formation with Birmingham City and I am experiencing the same as you. 

[alian62]

Are not goals being greater because of bringing on more super subs later in the game and extra time stretches out to 10 minutes

[Myuhas42]

I mean I guess the extra time may have something to do with it. I just cant figure out how to stop someone from curling one from 30 yards out with a defender closing them down. I mean there has to be a way. But I am in 16th place, lead the championship with goals scored but also leading in goals allowed. I don't want to have to swap to a 4-1-4-1. I just dont see that working for my tactic. Glad to see I'm not the only one with this problem though.

[andu1]

It seems there is an issue with 4-4-2. All AI teams in my save that play a 442 have the most goals conceded...

[Butters76]

I started a new game yesterday and saw lots of goals and shady goalkeeping. Then today I imported my FM23 game and scores are 1-0, 0-0 and 1-1 in the 3 matches I have played.
Goalkeepers have been living walls with Jedi reflexes. Might be coincidence or there is something in the database with GK's in FM24.

Another thing I noticed with the imported game was Set piece coaching. There was no coach with over 14 in set piece coaching, and only one with 14, five with 13. In the entire gameworld

[Mars_Blackmon]

10 minutes ago, andu1 said:

It seems there is an issue with 4-4-2. All AI teams in my save that play a 442 have the most goals conceded...

There's no cover in the midfield CMs should be DMs

[MBarbaric]

5 ore fa, Myuhas42 ha scritto:

Hey I am a long time player of FM, and just wondering if anyone else is experiencing this. I'm playing as Hull City and playing a 4-4-2 wing play formation. Slightly modified, I am noticing that my team is highly clinical. Like almost too clinical if i get 3 shots on goal, I score 3. I don't take a lot of shots overall and my team doesn't have alot of possession. But no matter what I do I am still letting up 1 to many and losing 4-3. It just seems like every game this is the score and I am unsure how to remedy this or if it is a known issue as many of the opposing goals are from 25 yards out curlers into top corner. I can post pictures of my tactic when I get home if anyone wants to see that.

i play 442 and don't see the problem with leaking goals while still being the top of the league scoring. that being said, there could be an infinite number of reasons. however, i'd suggest you try (if you didn't already) the following:

- balanced mentality

- very narrow shape (the narrower the better)

- no high press, normal line of engagement, normal depth

- force play wide/allow crosses, protect the middle

- don't step out (defensive line)

-   one D duty in CM, the other can be either attack or support

- both wide midfielders on support, full backs can both use attack duty

 

[andu1]

14 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

There's no cover in the midfield CMs should be DMs

I know but in FM23 the 442 teams were not this exposed like in this version. Some teams concede double the goals like the other teams which have a DM...

They should put 4-4-2 DM in the game since it's closer to IRL tactics

[Myuhas42]

13 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

i play 442 and don't see the problem with leaking goals while still being the top of the league scoring. that being said, there could be an infinite number of reasons. however, i'd suggest you try (if you didn't already) the following:

- balanced mentality

- very narrow shape (the narrower the better)

- no high press, normal line of engagement, normal depth

- force play wide/allow crosses, protect the middle

- don't step out (defensive line)

-   one D duty in CM, the other can be either attack or support

- both wide midfielders on support, full backs can both use attack duty

 

So to answer you question. 

- I usually fluctuate between cautious and positive. 

- Standard width ( I will try more narrow)

- I do not do a high press.

- Normal line of engagement and depth

- I will try that, i always thought if i trapped inside it would cause more turnovers and protect it more instead of leaving it open. i dont know why i thought that way.

- i do step out. i thought if they stepped out they would put more pressure on the player as hes moving towards shooting.

- i always use one cm on defense.

- i will try wide midfielders instead of wingers

[wazzaflow10]

1 hour ago, andu1 said:

I know but in FM23 the 442 teams were not this exposed like in this version. Some teams concede double the goals like the other teams which have a DM...

They should put 4-4-2 DM in the game since it's closer to IRL tactics

There weren't enough goals scored in 23 for away teams so they definitely had to increase the rate at which they scored anyway. I think we're all going to find out this version you need to set up your defensive structure properly or you'll get exposed by players in half spaces or overloads much more than in previous versions. 

I've been man marking IWB with same sided wingers with good effect or using wingers to man mark a DM if there's an IFB on their side to keep the balance in my favor in the midfield. I do think they'll have to come up with some better defensive tools over time to counter the new movement. I think we should enjoy the goalscoring though because if they tone it down too much a lot of people will complain about their striker not finishing their 1v1s again.

[MBarbaric]

14 ore fa, Myuhas42 ha scritto:

- i do step out. i thought if they stepped out they would put more pressure on the player as hes moving towards shooting.

- i will try wide midfielders instead of wingers

just to reiterate on this... all the instructions have positives and negatives and there are no right or wrong answers here. it comes down to how you want to play, what players you have, what they are good/bad at and who is on the opposite end.

that being said,  I didn't mean wide midfielders as a role but as a position. currently, i use Ws and WPs. it just ensures they are more inclined to track deep when on support. 

Step-out is fine if you want to reduce time and space for the opposition, it usually works well with a higher d line and generally more aggressive defensive approach. on the downside, they need to be fast with a gk with good 1v1 as this strategy is prone to balls into space.

regarding trap inside - it is better when you have more central midfielders than the opposition and the backline/gk that isn't good with dealing with crosses into the box. otherwise, it is usually better to protect the centre and allow the opponent to dominate the flanks.

[lied90]

Flat 442s in the beta suffer from CMs not occupying the space between midfield and defense, even with defensive roles/duties. 442 with two DMs do not have the same problem, even if it's a volante duo on attack.

Edited November 1, 2023 by lied90

[andu1]

On 01/11/2023 at 10:07, lied90 said:

Flat 442s in the beta suffer from CMs not occupying the space between midfield and defense, even with defensive roles/duties. 442 with two DMs do not have the same problem, even if it's a volante duo on attack.

Thats why they should replace it with 2DM..

 For AI teams i mean

[lied90]

2 hours ago, andu1 said:

Thats why they should replace it with 2DM..

 For AI teams i mean

Defending in a flat 442 is a very solid way to defend in real football, so it shouldn't be needed to drop CMs to DM.

[andu1]

1 hour ago, lied90 said:

Defending in a flat 442 is a very solid way to defend in real football, so it shouldn't be needed to drop CMs to DM.

Yeah but irl those 2 central midfielders are in general holding midfielders

[lied90]

10 hours ago, andu1 said:

Yeah but irl those 2 central midfielders are in general holding midfielders

Holding when i possession yes, but when defending the mid and wingers are flat, which is not the case when using 442 DM in FM as the DMs wil be lower than the wingers.

[andu1]

22 minutes ago, lied90 said:

Holding when i possession yes, but when defending the mid and wingers are flat, which is not the case when using 442 DM in FM as the DMs wil be lower than the wingers.

Is it though? I think it happened in previous FM's? Haven't tried 4-4-2 in FM24

[lied90]

9 minutes ago, andu1 said:

Is it though? I think it happened in previous FM's? Haven't tried 4-4-2 in FM24

When out of possession in a 442 DM the DMs are lower than than the wingers, leaving a gap in front of the DMs. In a flat 442 the CMs and wingers are aligned when defending. The latter is solid irl but leaks goals in FM, even with compressed lines. I think they should fix this instead of just hiding the problem by making the AI use 442 DM.

 

[Domoboy23]

I think we have our issue here.

AVERAGE CONVERSION RATES ACROSS THE ENGLISH CHAMPIONSHIP

IRL

22/23: 8.2%

21/22: 8.1%

20/21: 7.6%

3 YEAR ROLLING AVERAGE: 7.96%

FM SIMULATIONS

SEASON 1: 14.37

SEASON 2:  13.91

SEASON 3: 15.01

3 YEAR ROLLING AVERAGE: 14.43%

THIS TEST HAS BEEN RUN ACROSS MULTIPLE NATIONS AND LEAGUES, ALL WITH EXCEPTIONALLY HIGH CONVERSION RATES. THIS IS A UNIVERSAL, NOT LEAGUE SPECIFIC ISSUE.

[andu1]

6 hours ago, Domoboy23 said:

I think we have our issue here.

AVERAGE CONVERSION RATES ACROSS THE ENGLISH CHAMPIONSHIP

IRL

22/23: 8.2%

21/22: 8.1%

20/21: 7.6%

3 YEAR ROLLING AVERAGE: 7.96%

FM SIMULATIONS

SEASON 1: 14.37

SEASON 2:  13.91

SEASON 3: 15.01

3 YEAR ROLLING AVERAGE: 14.43%

THIS TEST HAS BEEN RUN ACROSS MULTIPLE NATIONS AND LEAGUES, ALL WITH EXCEPTIONALLY HIGH CONVERSION RATES. THIS IS A UNIVERSAL, NOT LEAGUE SPECIFIC ISSUE.

Wow nice find... So the conversion rate is almost double... hopefully it gets fixed in the Monday release

[Domoboy23]

2 hours ago, andu1 said:

Wow nice find... So the conversion rate is almost double... hopefully it gets fixed in the Monday release

My understanding is that the conversion rate has always been higher on FM. But around the 9.4% mark on FM23 across the same sims. So yes, needs reducing! Even a reduction down to an average of around 11% would make a considerable noticeable difference 

[andu1]

42 minutes ago, Domoboy23 said:

My understanding is that the conversion rate has always been higher on FM. But around the 9.4% mark on FM23 across the same sims. So yes, needs reducing! Even a reduction down to an average of around 11% would make a considerable noticeable difference 

Might be higher in FM but 15.01% in a season is just too much... It's too far from reality.

[Dagenham_Dave]

I'll put up with the extra goals if it keeps the current match engine as tight as it is now. Once they go changing stuff, that way madness lies. 

[andu1]

It only needs minor tweaks. Not something drastic.

[DarJ]

5 hours ago, Domoboy23 said:

But around the 9.4% mark on FM23 across the same sims

I'm not sure about that. I went to look at my FM23 save in the Danish 3rd division and this is the conversion rate. it isn't that different from FM24

[Dagenham_Dave]

3 hours ago, andu1 said:

It only needs minor tweaks. Not something drastic.

Butterfly effect. It's a fragile beast, the match engine. 

[andu1]

52 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Butterfly effect. It's a fragile beast, the match engine. 

To be honest i only have 2 issues with the ME... The number of corner per games is i think around 3-4 on average higher than IRL and the AI's 4-4-2 which i found is the cause of many of the high scoring games.

If no changes are made to the ME i will just use the editor to change the teams playing flat 4-4-2 to another formation.

[Domoboy23]

On 04/11/2023 at 16:02, DarJ said:

I'm not sure about that. I went to look at my FM23 save in the Danish 3rd division and this is the conversion rate. it isn't that different from FM24

That is 10.8% fwiw. So inbetween both which is quite significant.

[Domoboy23]

On 04/11/2023 at 15:23, Dagenham_Dave said:

I'll put up with the extra goals if it keeps the current match engine as tight as it is now. Once they go changing stuff, that way madness lies. 

It's bordering on "unplayable" for me atm. The matched are far too unpredictable and border down to pure luck at the moment.

If it is (and it looks like it) just the sheer conversion rate that needs to be toned down, that should be doable without altering anything else in the ME. As it would be the end point of a move. It's not as if it's a case of changing the amount of chances (which would be a big thing) etc

[Domoboy23]

Latest and most complete test yet. Will update the below as soon as the ''full' release occurs tomorrow and testing has been done to allow us to see if there have been any changes.

 

 

 

 

Please note for FM24 some teams had a conversion rate of up to 21% (so 1 in 5 of their shots goes in the back of the net) come the end of the season!

 

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Domoboy23

[DarJ]

@Domoboy23 When you actually watch the games in the ME do you feel like there are big issues with how the game plays out? 

The reason I'm asking is because personally, when I watch the game actually playing out I don't see big issues with it (although there are things here and there that annoy me) and to me that's better than if the numbers at the end match up 1 to 1 with real football. I think that this year SI have done a good job with the ME because it plays really well and looks closer to actual football then any other version of FM.

My second question is would you be happy if the stats and numbers were 1 to 1 with real football but it plays bad in the ME?

Now I understand that you spent your money on the game just like me so you expect your expectations to be met and there are 6 million of us so you can understand that they are never going to make all of us happy so we need to find a middle ground some how.

[Domoboy23]

@DarJ

I'd want it so that the GPG is brought down. Happy medium by just lowering the conversion rate (as the rest of the ME seems fine) down to 12% from the current 14% (IRL 7-8%, FM23 9-10%) would solve it imo.

I need to have realistic results and be able to grind out results and clean sheets.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Domoboy23