Please help to adapt my 433 tactic for FM24

[Novem9]

It was in FM22. Tactic was really powerful and beautiful:

 

I tried to adapt this for FM24:

But now this not only gives worse results, but in a conditional half of cases the possession is either slightly higher than the opponent, or even lower.

Any advices how to improve this tactic in FM24 please!

[coach vahid]

It's very annoying. I won't play on fm 24. I can't help you...

But it's very annoying.

[Novem9]

22 минуты назад, coach vahid сказал:

It's very annoying. I won't play on fm 24. I can't help you...

But it's very annoying.

Not without it

By the way, this tactic is also good in FM21. I think an issue is that the new FM has changed tactical instructions out of possession. Unfortunately, I don't really understand these new instructions, maybe the key is here

[Os]

Turn your LB role to IFB and stick overlap right on.

 

I have found in harder games the right sided CM to be too advanced as a B2B and give them a more static defensive role to stop the opposition playing through my lines constantly.

 

P.s you have no defensive stability on your right hand side.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Os

[crusadertsar]

I found that what works the best right now in Beta with 433 is using inverted wingbacks and fullbacks to create 3-2-5 shape in attack. It worked wonders so far for me in LaLiga with Real Sociedad. Managed to reach 1/16th stage in Champions League by beating Athletico Madrid and AC Milan. And I'm now starting to test it in Turkish league with similar results. You need a pretty good team for it to work however.

If you are interested, I started to chronicle my tactical journey in this thread:

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by crusadertsar

[coach vahid]

Just a few words for tell you that i enjoy your tactic on fm 22.

[Novem9]

В 22.10.2023 в 19:31, Os сказал:

I have found in harder games the right sided CM to be too advanced as a B2B and give them a more static defensive role to stop the opposition playing through my lines constantly.

 

Does this sound like giving up the desire to dominate and control the ball?

 

В 22.10.2023 в 19:31, Os сказал:

P.s you have no defensive stability on your right hand side.

Interesting note. In FM22 I didn’t have any big problems with this, and WB(a) was one of the best assistants. What do you recommend to fix the stability?

 

P.S. Lost in translation. Do you mean 'right on' as use overlap on IFB flank or 'right on' as use overlap on the right flank?  

Edited October 26, 2023 by Novem9

[skyzekaizo]

Hey mate, I have used your tactic in FM23 and I think it was insanely good.

In this edition I think there are a couple of problems that inherently cripple your F9 and therefore nerf down the tactic.

Due to positional play, it does not matter which traits you teach your F9 or which instructions you give him in order to drop deep, roam and move into channels. Your F9 is pushed into staying central and will play like an inefficient spearhead. I'll explain myself:

I'm 100% sure that the ME uses some kind of repelling potential between players so that they don't occupy the same zones, as well as making sure there is a player in each of the five channels.

Due to the fact that the 4-3-3 formation spans the field as efficiently as possible, you will generally always have deeper or wider players that either occupy (or are hard coded to move into) zones that the F9 could possibly roam into. So the only space your F9 can and must occupy is the "spearhead".

Other than that, your IW-a is pushed wide by your MEZ-a (even during build up) and I don't think the FB-s will be able to help him once you get to the flank. So I think that your IW-a will frequently get into situations where he is hugging the byline and does not have an easy passing option to recycle, and will therefore get pressed easily during away games where the AI is more aggressive.

Edit: It's even worse than I thought, the F9 can't drop lower than in between the opp defenders and the defensive midfielders. I've just made the test playing a 5-2-3 with no DM running forward. Even with acres of space in the midfield and nobody hard coded to occupy it, the F9 stays high. The role is completely bugged.

Edited December 5, 2023 by skyzekaizo

[crusadertsar]

18 hours ago, skyzekaizo said:

Hey mate, I have used your tactic in FM23 and I think it was insanely good.

In this edition I think there are a couple of problems that inherently cripple your F9 and therefore nerf down the tactic.

Due to positional play, it does not matter which traits you teach your F9 or which instructions you give him in order to drop deep, roam and move into channels. Your F9 is pushed into staying central and will play like an inefficient spearhead. I'll explain myself:

I'm 100% sure that the ME uses some kind of repelling potential between players so that they don't occupy the same zones, as well as making sure there is a player in each of the five channels.

Due to the fact that the 4-3-3 formation spans the field as efficiently as possible, you will generally always have deeper or wider players that either occupy (or are hard coded to move into) zones that the F9 could possibly roam into. So the only space your F9 can and must occupy is the "spearhead".

Other than that, your IW-a is pushed wide by your MEZ-a (even during build up) and I don't think the FB-s will be able to help him once you get to the flank. So I think that your IW-a will frequently get into situations where he is hugging the byline and does not have an easy passing option to recycle, and will therefore get pressed easily during away games where the AI is more aggressive.

Edit: It's even worse than I thought, the F9 can't drop lower than in between the opp defenders and the defensive midfielders. I've just made the test playing a 5-2-3 with no DM running forward. Even with acres of space in the midfield and nobody hard coded to occupy it, the F9 stays high. The role is completely bugged.

For your information, False9 role is not affected by positional play changes in FM24. That's only for IFD, IWB, Halfback, SV, Mezzala, Advanced Playmaker (in CM strata), RPM, and other Midfielders in CM and DM strata. And Libero. They all had their behaviour modified to accommodate positional play. But False 9 should still behave as it did in FM23. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by crusadertsar

[skyzekaizo]

15 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

For your information, False9 role is not affected by positional play changes in FM24. That's only for IFD, IWB, Halfback, SV, Mezzala, Advanced Playmaker (in CM strata), RPM, Mezzala and other Midfielders in CM and DM strata. And Libero. False 9 should still behave as it did in FM23

Exactly it should, but it doesn't. Try it in both versions (in a 4-3-3 or 5-2-3 formation) and you'll notice that in FM23 the F9 drops deeper and more frequently, and moves into channels if instructed to do so. While in FM24 he stays rather static. 

[crusadertsar]

7 minutes ago, skyzekaizo said:

Exactly it should, but it doesn't. Try it in both versions (in a 4-3-3 or 5-2-3 formation) and you'll notice that in FM23 the F9 drops deeper and more frequently, and moves into channels if instructed to do so. While in FM24 he stays rather static. 

It might be something to do with your tactic. Because False9 in my 433 works just as well as he did in FM23. And drops just as deep. 

[04texag]

29 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

It might be something to do with your tactic. Because False9 in my 433 works just as well as he did in FM23. And drops just as deep. 

It also could be the player. Player traits obv make a big difference to these movements. 

[skyzekaizo]

2 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

It might be something to do with your tactic. Because False9 in my 433 works just as well as he did in FM23. And drops just as deep. 

Hmm, I'd like to see your tactic and compare it to the one I use, as well as how your F9 looks like. Mine has comes deep to get ball as well as arrives late into box and generally he never drops past the opposite DM/CM.

Also I'd like to see photos where we can see the F9 drop into midfield during build up.

Edit: yeah no mate, I think we're playing different games. I just simulated a game on FM24 vs a lower division opponent playing a 4-4-2, my F9 is playing the whole game like a bad poacher even though he has the space, the instructions and the PPMs to drop deep. He has on his right side a MEZ-a and a W-s, on his left side an IF-s and a DLP-s and he barely dropped lower than the opp deeper midfielder.

Edited December 6, 2023 by skyzekaizo

[leb]

yeah F9 is bugged, i used players with high off the ball, comes deep ppm and all and the F9 isn't involved in play, sometimes only making 10-20 passes a game in a possession system while everyone else is involved.

 

 

[avenger22]

On 13/12/2023 at 10:43, leb said:

yeah F9 is bugged, i used players with high off the ball, comes deep ppm and all and the F9 isn't involved in play, sometimes only making 10-20 passes a game in a possession system while everyone else is involved.

 

 

All support roles in striker strata don't work at all, they should have implemented also backwards positional play as they did with the other, also few rotations are missing but being able to defend with 2 strikers and have one become a AM or get involved in buildup would be great

[whatsupdoc]

On 22/10/2023 at 12:42, Novem9 said:

It was in FM22. Tactic was really powerful and beautiful:

 

I tried to adapt this for FM24:

But now this not only gives worse results, but in a conditional half of cases the possession is either slightly higher than the opponent, or even lower.

Any advices how to improve this tactic in FM24 please!

New engine loves an IWB. I can't get a stable defence without one. I'd change the left back to an iwb (s or d). 

"Mentality" (risk) is in a tricky spot to figure out. For a possession oriented 433 I like using lower mentalities (fb instead of wb) and adding "get further forward" as a PI. So yeah, I'd change the RB to a FB a or s with get further forward PI. 

Front 3 doesn't make sense to me. F9 drags the CBs out of position but nobody attacks the space? I'd change both wide players to IFs, one support one attack. Get further forward PI if it isn't already locked. 

Mezzala (a) is almost a prerequisite for this system. Plays much more like a 10 than an "advanced playmaker" does (AP is terrible in a 433 if you want him to receive between their defence and midfield). I'd try playing around with a mezzala: cross less and the "play through the middle" TI which might get the mezzala playing narrower, like a normal 10 would in a 433.

Short passing f9 433 is really hard to get working at the moment. Try adding a HB if you want a next level challenge

Interested to hear how you've been going!

Edited December 21, 2023 by whatsupdoc

[skyzekaizo]

On 21/12/2023 at 08:45, whatsupdoc said:

New engine loves an IWB. I can't get a stable defence without one. I'd change the left back to an iwb (s or d). 

"Mentality" (risk) is in a tricky spot to figure out. For a possession oriented 433 I like using lower mentalities (fb instead of wb) and adding "get further forward" as a PI. So yeah, I'd change the RB to a FB a or s with get further forward PI. 

Front 3 doesn't make sense to me. F9 drags the CBs out of position but nobody attacks the space? I'd change both wide players to IFs, one support one attack. Get further forward PI if it isn't already locked. 

Mezzala (a) is almost a prerequisite for this system. Plays much more like a 10 than an "advanced playmaker" does (AP is terrible in a 433 if you want him to receive between their defence and midfield). I'd try playing around with a mezzala: cross less and the "play through the middle" TI which might get the mezzala playing narrower, like a normal 10 would in a 433.

Short passing f9 433 is really hard to get working at the moment. Try adding a HB if you want a next level challenge

Interested to hear how you've been going!

The MEZ-a sits way too high and leaves a hole in your midfield, against good opposition generally you get punished for that. In the previous edition this was mitigated because the F9 would sometimes drop deep and rotate with the MEZ-a, but in this edition he's not doing that anymore and this is a problem. While the AP-a frequently drop deep to receive a pass and is less inclined to leave a hole in the midfield during build up.

Also, IF and IW roles are basically identical in this game, the only thing that makes a difference are traits. An IW will behave just like an IF if you teach him to move into channels, and the only way you'll get your IF/IW to cut inside is if you teach him the trait, otherwise he'll run to the byline and cross or lose the ball like a regular winger.

Finally, I think that having 2 IF makes the width collapse too early.

[Novem9]

В 21.12.2023 в 09:45, whatsupdoc сказал:

Interested to hear how you've been going!

So far FM24 has disappointed me. The game has charm, but I'm waiting for the final patch... and may never play the big save of this edition.

% of possession in some games just makes me crazy  the same issues in this game again and again...

 

After some tests, it seemed to me that now DLF(a) is much more suitable for the role of L9 than L9 himself. I agree with those who talk about the ineffectiveness of the MEZ(a). He was my main weapon in both assists and goals. Now I don't see this unstoppability

I used the 433 made by Zidane and it looks more effective. Possibly because it doesn't use short passing or maximum pressing:

W(s) - F9(s) - IF(a)

MEZ(a)-DLP(s)

---DM(d)---

IWB(s)-CB-CB-CWB(s)

TI: Play out def.

Counter, Pressing

Higher, Higher, More Pressure

It's simple, but balanced.

 

P.S. IW(a) looks worse too for me. 

When I changed FM21 to FM22, I had to learn a lot of things all over again. Some rules and habits have lost their meaning. Perhaps now I need to do the same after the transition from FM22 to FM24.

[Novem9]

В 25.12.2023 в 13:27, skyzekaizo сказал:

Finally, I think that having 2 IF makes the width collapse too early.

While I'm no tactical guru, my experience is that this is a bad idea. I wouldn't use two insiders even for the best team in the world

[whatsupdoc]

12 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

So far FM24 has disappointed me. The game has charm, but I'm waiting for the final patch... and may never play the big save of this edition.

% of possession in some games just makes me crazy  the same issues in this game again and again...

 

After some tests, it seemed to me that now DLF(a) is much more suitable for the role of L9 than L9 himself. I agree with those who talk about the ineffectiveness of the MEZ(a). He was my main weapon in both assists and goals. Now I don't see this unstoppability

I used the 433 made by Zidane and it looks more effective. Possibly because it doesn't use short passing or maximum pressing:

W(s) - F9(s) - IF(a)

MEZ(a)-DLP(s)

---DM(d)---

IWB(s)-CB-CB-CWB(s)

TI: Play out def.

Counter, Pressing

Higher, Higher, More Pressure

It's simple, but balanced.

 

P.S. IW(a) looks worse too for me. 

When I changed FM21 to FM22, I had to learn a lot of things all over again. Some rules and habits have lost their meaning. Perhaps now I need to do the same after the transition from FM22 to FM24.

Yeah the false 9 isn't good enough because it doesn't trigger the IFs to attack the space he leaves enough. 

[Novem9]

В 28.12.2023 в 17:01, whatsupdoc сказал:

Yeah the false 9 isn't good enough because it doesn't trigger the IFs to attack the space he leaves enough. 

How F9 worked in FM23? I skipped this edition

[whatsupdoc]

3 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

How F9 worked in FM23? I skipped this edition

Me too.

[Cloud9]

2 hours ago, Novem9 said:

How F9 worked in FM23? I skipped this edition

If you're not liking the results with a F9 I would recommend a DLF who can hold up the ball for the IF's to play off of. I haven't been having issues with the F9 on FM24 for what it's worth, although I usually prefer to pair one with a Poacher or a SS.

[Novem9]

9 часов назад, Cloud9 сказал:

If you're not liking the results with a F9 I would recommend a DLF who can hold up the ball for the IF's to play off of. I haven't been having issues with the F9 on FM24 for what it's worth, although I usually prefer to pair one with a Poacher or a SS.

What I don't like about DLF is his friendliness. He's like that guy who wants everyone to like him. F9 has healthy egoism and initiative, he takes the game and solves the episodes. At least that's how I saw him before.

I wonder if the final FM24 patch will affect it.

[Novem9]

So, I finally got to FM24.

It seems that the engine has become much more flexible and fluid. It was similar in FM22 compared to FM21. What does this mean in practice?
That there is no need to use accented roles. For example, the winger began to use the space in front of him much more wisely. This means that the IW becomes a more highly specialized role, while the winger becomes more universal.

Pair of MEZ-IW in FM22 did not cause a conflict (although on paper I expected this). In FM24 this already works differently.
Perhaps someone will argue that ME worked like this before. I'm just sharing my impressions based on the fact that after a huge number of hours in FM22, I had to rethink the interaction of roles in FM24.

For example, I used MEZ(a) in FM22, to focus him on attacking decisions. But MEZ(s) does the same in FM24:

This is how the new version of my tactics turned out:

This is not final version. But it works much better. The main issue is LB role. Don't like how FB works right now. He doesn't really helpful in attack and really poor in defensive phase. IWB(s) looks more interesting, especially in DM zone. But in some moments he lost left wing and it was key mistake for the attacks. IFB(d) is fine, but in this specific team (AC Milan) LB is one of the best team players. I'm not sure it's even legal to use Theo Hernandez in such a limited role  

 

And I don't know what is wrong with possession? @crusadertsar Could you share your impressions of the possession percentage numbers? It seems to me that many teams use "garbage" possession in their half, and this ball control has no meaning or benefit at all.

[crusadertsar]

30 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

So, I finally got to FM24.

It seems that the engine has become much more flexible and fluid. It was similar in FM22 compared to FM21. What does this mean in practice?
That there is no need to use accented roles. For example, the winger began to use the space in front of him much more wisely. This means that the IW becomes a more highly specialized role, while the winger becomes more universal.

Pair of MEZ-IW in FM22 did not cause a conflict (although on paper I expected this). In FM24 this already works differently.
Perhaps someone will argue that ME worked like this before. I'm just sharing my impressions based on the fact that after a huge number of hours in FM22, I had to rethink the interaction of roles in FM24.

For example, I used MEZ(a) in FM22, to focus him on attacking decisions. But MEZ(s) does the same in FM24:

This is how the new version of my tactics turned out:

This is not final version. But it works much better. The main issue is LB role. Don't like how FB works right now. He doesn't really helpful in attack and really poor in defensive phase. IWB(s) looks more interesting, especially in DM zone. But in some moments he lost left wing and it was key mistake for the attacks. IFB(d) is fine, but in this specific team (AC Milan) LB is one of the best team players. I'm not sure it's even legal to use Theo Hernandez in such a limited role  

 

And I don't know what is wrong with possession? @crusadertsar Could you share your impressions of the possession percentage numbers? It seems to me that many teams use "garbage" possession in their half, and this ball control has no meaning or benefit at all.

I could share but not sure if it would be helpful. I use a different narrow shape. I don't have the exact number but last time I checked it was in low 60s. Would need to check how many passes we are getting on average. But I also think it's usually hovering around 500-600 per game. My approach is much more vertical tiki-taka to get the ball close to opposition goal with as few touches as possible and cut out sideways and backwards passes. But game tends to label our approach as "possession football" anyway.

Edited January 18 by crusadertsar

[Novem9]

1 минуту назад, crusadertsar сказал:

I could share but not sure if it would be helpful. I use a different narrow shape. I don't have the exact number but last time I checked it was in low 60s. Would need to check how many passes we are getting on average. But I also think it's usually hovering around 500-600 per game. My approach is much more vertical tiki-taka to get the ball close to opposition goal with as few touches as possible and cut out sideways and backwards passes. But game tends to label our approach as "possession football" anyway.

My average possesssion in FM22 was 60-68%, something like that. In FM24 the upper value is even higher. It was 75% at the end of the match! 

But in some matches of FM24, as in the screenshots, AI clubs start using something strange - they have huge possession without any real domination. I see this especially often in formation 3421 with 2DM.