FM24 - British lower league leagues

[Russell10]

Is there any reason the next tier down from the conference north/south or even the Scotland lowland leagues not been added?

Lots of users start in the bottom tier of England especially, I thought they would add even more.

[FrazT]

The amount of work involved in researching and adding a new lower league has to be matched by additional revenue being generated, so, given that there are community updates with these leagues available, I suspect that it is not economically viable.

[Bigpole]

51 minutes ago, Russell10 said:

Is there any reason the next tier down from the conference north/south or even the Scotland lowland leagues not been added?

Lots of users start in the bottom tier of England especially, I thought they would add even more.

They are in the game and when the game will officially launch and editor will be available - lower leagues will be created.

Remember that each level of each country requires a quality research and resources, so a lot of leagues and teams are in the game, they simply need to be activated in the editor.

[DanRolls94]

13 hours ago, Russell10 said:

Is there any reason the next tier down from the conference north/south or even the Scotland lowland leagues not been added?

Lots of users start in the bottom tier of England especially, I thought they would add even more.

To be fair, at levels 7/8 in the English system have a fair few researchers doing some really good work and have fleshed out those levels a fair bit. Once the full release is out it's fairly simple to activate those levels and you'll usually see a fair amount of databases knocking around on here and other systems.

I forget who does it but their is always a brilliant Scottish lower league database that gets released every year which really fleshes that out. 

[kingjericho]

I believe the OP was asking why aren't these tiers included if they're well researched and are easy to activate using the editor.

Not everyone is comfortable using the editor, and in my opinion the more leagues and divisions available from the start, the more interesting the game becomes. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

26 minutes ago, DanRolls94 said:

I forget who does it but their is always a brilliant Scottish lower league database that gets released every year which really fleshes that out. 

Guy's name is Mozza. Former work colleague of mine. He always does a terrific job with the lower league Scottish database. 

[Russell10]

16 hours ago, FrazT said:

The amount of work involved in researching and adding a new lower league has to be matched by additional revenue being generated, so, given that there are community updates with these leagues available, I suspect that it is not economically viable.

I do get that and understand but would hope the popularity of people starting at the bottom tier particularly in England would hopefully mean the guys who make the game would like to expand the game.

I prefer playing the leagues provided by the game than downloading databases.

[DMaster2]

16 ore fa, Russell10 ha scritto:

Is there any reason the next tier down from the conference north/south or even the Scotland lowland leagues not been added?

Lots of users start in the bottom tier of England especially, I thought they would add even more.

I've been expecting Serie D (Italy's 4th division) for like 15 years now...

[Thebaker]

i would like to know why leagues are in the game but you cannot manage teams in those leagues. French National2 and the bottom Norwegian leagues are examples of this.

[Bigpole]

3 hours ago, DMaster2 said:

I've been expecting Serie D (Italy's 4th division) for like 15 years now...

Serie D has 9 divisions, and these divisions must be very well researched. So it's hard.

 

6 hours ago, kingjericho said:

I believe the OP was asking why aren't these tiers included if they're well researched and are easy to activate using the editor.

Not everyone is comfortable using the editor, and in my opinion the more leagues and divisions available from the start, the more interesting the game becomes. 

It's hard to tell if they are well researched, and as above - 12 divisions that must be very well done by the researchers.

 

I can give a small hindsight as a researcher - a lot of big countries don't have that many people involved in research. The leagues are superbly done, like French, German, Portuguese. But at the end - it's all about licensing. And if you license a league, it just has to be top-notch.

The players may appreciate good quality research and details, but it has to be maintained as well. And researchers can come and go, so one year you have a full division done by someone and next year he's gone, and you have to do an extra work to update the whole league/division.

 

Each year I can see hundreds of league files for various countries across the globe, so I'm certain that England level 10 file or Italian Serie D file will be available after the full game is released.

[Russell10]

3 hours ago, Bigpole said:

Serie D has 9 divisions, and these divisions must be very well researched. So it's hard.

 

It's hard to tell if they are well researched, and as above - 12 divisions that must be very well done by the researchers.

 

I can give a small hindsight as a researcher - a lot of big countries don't have that many people involved in research. The leagues are superbly done, like French, German, Portuguese. But at the end - it's all about licensing. And if you license a league, it just has to be top-notch.

The players may appreciate good quality research and details, but it has to be maintained as well. And researchers can come and go, so one year you have a full division done by someone and next year he's gone, and you have to do an extra work to update the whole league/division.

 

Each year I can see hundreds of league files for various countries across the globe, so I'm certain that England level 10 file or Italian Serie D file will be available after the full game is released.

Thanks for explaining, love FM and I appreciate adding Serie D would be very difficult, but thought another english tier would be achievable. 

[santy001]

I'm only offering some partial speculation, but below a certain level in football getting all the relevant agreements in place probably becomes more difficult due to the fact the various set-ups aren't professional. Licensing agreements for those leagues to be actively included in the game may be a barrier. One thing that always works against any kind of historical database file officially is the difficulty in pursuing rights because of how it works. How the rights of retired players vs active players would be handled etc. 

The difficulty of research, licensing it, accurately representing it in game and testing it would all be potential barriers. 

[rristola]

On 20/10/2023 at 00:27, Bigpole said:

They are in the game and when the game will officially launch and editor will be available - lower leagues will be created.

19 hours ago, santy001 said:

The difficulty of research, licensing it, accurately representing it in game and testing it would all be potential barriers. 

I am one of those, who would like to start their careers from the bottom. I have never understood how is it possible to choose to be a Manager with no badge at all and only a Sunday leagues player, and still get a job from VNL North/South or even higher.

Game has been made to include also lower leagues! But, I also understand those reasons mentioned above... And there are countries with pretty good researching level, and those... not.

 

Could this be avoided or made easier to handle, if mods would be divided into two separate groups - another for stuff that won't change like league rules and data like cities and stadiums, and another for all player and staff data.

That could also need a new thing (as far as I know) - dependencies. Meaning: with a set of mods different mods MIGHT use same UID's, and therefore some UID's would have to be changed (when starting a new game). Then a league wouldn't find its database stuff (at least in a correct way).

 

What would we get with this? You could start your game with any league rules mod, and 1) if there's no database for it, just use "Added players", OR 2) choose also a database for that league.

This way those league mods wouldn't EVER need updating! I hate when one of mods uses 23.0 or 23.1 database and it just won't work with 23.2 or 23.4 databases. Waiting for updates...

 

This also would make sure that new added graphics for mods are usable (helping all the graphics makers and users).

I have made some kits myself for a mod, and it's really annoying when with any mod update all that stuff might have to be re-named (UID number is also that file's name).

[Bigpole]

On 21/10/2023 at 19:16, rristola said:

I am one of those, who would like to start their careers from the bottom. I have never understood how is it possible to choose to be a Manager with no badge at all and only a Sunday leagues player, and still get a job from VNL North/South or even higher.

Game has been made to include also lower leagues! But, I also understand those reasons mentioned above... And there are countries with pretty good researching level, and those... not.

 

Could this be avoided or made easier to handle, if mods would be divided into two separate groups - another for stuff that won't change like league rules and data like cities and stadiums, and another for all player and staff data.

That could also need a new thing (as far as I know) - dependencies. Meaning: with a set of mods different mods MIGHT use same UID's, and therefore some UID's would have to be changed (when starting a new game). Then a league wouldn't find its database stuff (at least in a correct way).

 

What would we get with this? You could start your game with any league rules mod, and 1) if there's no database for it, just use "Added players", OR 2) choose also a database for that league.

This way those league mods wouldn't EVER need updating! I hate when one of mods uses 23.0 or 23.1 database and it just won't work with 23.2 or 23.4 databases. Waiting for updates...

 

This also would make sure that new added graphics for mods are usable (helping all the graphics makers and users).

I have made some kits myself for a mod, and it's really annoying when with any mod update all that stuff might have to be re-named (UID number is also that file's name).

The good thing about this game is that you can create basically everything in terms of lower league football. And the only problem is to keep this up do date. 

That's why modders are doing only leagues and clubs/cities/stadiums, they're not creating players.

I'm a lower league enthusiast, have done Spanish 10th tier, German 6th, Polish 4th and Tunisian 4th. And all researchers are trying to at least create all clubs in regional/local level for us to create or activate league rules in editor. 

[rristola]

1 hour ago, Bigpole said:

And the only problem is to keep this up do date.

That is important. But, at least for me, I could always start my new games from the start of pre-season. Database X.0 or X.1 is fine. But sometimes later on comes a nice new league mod, which can use only database X.4.

 

I was just wondering if there could be any method to avoid these database version conflicts. It's not nice when you just can't use the "best" set of mods. When looking mods in Steam, there are many with comments "Update, please!"

And, you might have guessed - I don't know how to use the Editor! I don't know what stuff is included in them, and what is not. BTW, why those league rules mods need re-validating with new database versions?

 

And, thanks to all modders and yeah to lower leagues.

[XaW]

11 hours ago, rristola said:

BTW, why those league rules mods need re-validating with new database versions?

An example of what I have seen is when I created my Norway lower league is that I've created 2nd or 3rd teams, or in other nations it would u23s that don't exist in x.0 and the like. But when the update comes along SI (or rather the researcher) has created the same team. So suddenly my file will break because you can't have two 3rd teams! Or what if a team has folded in real life, but my file adds their 2nd team? These things would cause the game to break. Most of the time, you can just re-validate without needing anything else, and what that does is it implies there are no illogical states my file can set based on the database used. If the validation fails, you can fix those and revalidate again.

Also, I think you can select what database version to validate against, based on what you load before you load the file, but don't quote me on that, as I've never actually tried it myself.

[rristola]

1 hour ago, XaW said:

So suddenly my file will break because you can't have two 3rd teams!

Hmmm, shouldn't mod always rule over vanilla game? Like, if you take all money away from Man City using a mod...? Or, using a FM23 save in FM24?

 

Another problem. Like I wrote, I love lower leagues, and therefore I have quite a lot of added league files. (Not all loaded in one game, thou.)

When I'm starting a new game (save), as far as I know, it is then that the vanilla game allocates UID's to everything needing it.

Somehow some mods try to use same UID's, and then the vanilla game has to re-organize those UID's.

Is there a way to "order" mod to use a certain set of UID's?  And, BTW, how to change loading order of mods?

 

Do you know, if there is any way to be sure to use unique set of UID's in your own mod?

Why - I have tried to make added graphics for a league mod, and what works for me (and all my league mods), won't work for the others trying to use my graphics packs. And that means a lot of extra work.

[XaW]

2 hours ago, rristola said:

Hmmm, shouldn't mod always rule over vanilla game? Like, if you take all money away from Man City using a mod...? Or, using a FM23 save in FM24?

 

Another problem. Like I wrote, I love lower leagues, and therefore I have quite a lot of added league files. (Not all loaded in one game, thou.)

When I'm starting a new game (save), as far as I know, it is then that the vanilla game allocates UID's to everything needing it.

Somehow some mods try to use same UID's, and then the vanilla game has to re-organize those UID's.

Is there a way to "order" mod to use a certain set of UID's?  And, BTW, how to change loading order of mods?

 

Do you know, if there is any way to be sure to use unique set of UID's in your own mod?

Why - I have tried to make added graphics for a league mod, and what works for me (and all my league mods), won't work for the others trying to use my graphics packs. And that means a lot of extra work.

Honestly, I've just only started dabbling with the editor, so I really don't know. Your best bet would be to ask in the editors section.

[Fola]

Any idea how quick a lower league database for England will be released after official release?

I don't want to transfer over from fm23, I mean an fm24 one. Cheers

[DazRTaylor]

14 minutes ago, Fola said:

Any idea how quick a lower league database for England will be released after official release?

I don't want to transfer over from fm23, I mean an fm24 one. Cheers

The best I have seen down to tier ten is by @lionel messiand I am sure he will repeat for FM24.  His is so good because he doesn't release it until it is ready.  Much better as considerably reduces the chances of the database going wrong. If you want to go even lower, Dan goes down to level 22 but that takes him nearly a year so won't be available for a while.

[phnompenhandy]

15 minutes ago, Fola said:

Any idea how quick a lower league database for England will be released after official release?

I don't want to transfer over from fm23, I mean an fm24 one. Cheers

A 'quick' one can be released in a few days. A good quality one that gets all the details right takes a month or so - see 'LeoMessi's thread in the Editors' Hideaway. How long did it take him for FM23?

[forameuss]

People that don't use the editor, but really want the editor files themselves need to realise that the Editor itself can be absolutely awful to use, and, at best, is not at all set up to be able to efficiently create large edits.  Like, not at all.  As a tool for being able to basically crack open the guts of the game and change anything, it's great, but using it is a pain, and I take my hats off to those that make these files that have not just thousands of changes, but also delve into the advanced rules.  Because it's incredibly painful.

[Fola]

Okay cheers guys. I only have one save per FM so I'll just start NLS level. Don't think I'll have the patience to wait haha