Superleague above champions league.

[Fire0Fart]

Hello. Is it possible to create a superleague in continental cup rules with teams not playing in their own nation? So for example Barcelona play in this superleague but not in la liga (edited one) and if they get relegated from the superleague they go back to la liga. And let's say semifinalists of champions league get promoted to the superleague?

[themodelcitizen]

It's possible, depending on how you'd want La Liga to handle promotions, especially in years where Barca (or whoever) didn't finish anywhere near the bottom. Just lots and lots of work in the editor

[rusty217]

Nope, not possible. Teams need to have a nation and a division set. Not to mention figuring out how to do promotion/relegation with it would be near impossible. People usually do superleague stuff by doing it all based in a specific nation and using nation rules, you could do it that way and still have lower divisions split by nation, everything would have to be moved to that nation though and the promotion/relegation would still be a nightmare to get right.

It would be possible to setup a superleague in addition to teams continuing to compete in their national leagues though. It's a bit of work, but it's definitely possible.

[themodelcitizen]

 

1 hour ago, rusty217 said:

Nope, not possible. Teams need to have a nation and a division set. Not to mention figuring out how to do promotion/relegation with it would be near impossible. People usually do superleague stuff by doing it all based in a specific nation and using nation rules, you could do it that way and still have lower divisions split by nation, everything would have to be moved to that nation though and the promotion/relegation would still be a nightmare to get right.

It would be possible to setup a superleague in addition to teams continuing to compete in their national leagues though. It's a bit of work, but it's definitely possible.

Could you use "ignore teams" to tell Spain to leave out teams in this thing, with a variable number of entrants? Then each season have the Superleague draw first, with only the top 17 or so (out of 20) having qualified for the next year. So it still thinks Barca are a la Liga team and they make signings, but they don't play any fixtures and don't get a ranking that year. Obviously pro/rel would still be a disaster

Edited October 17, 2023 by themodelcitizen

[Wolf_pd]

1 hour ago, rusty217 said:

It would be possible to setup a superleague in addition to teams continuing to compete in their national leagues though. It's a bit of work, but it's definitely possible.

Doesn't kill it their performance in the national league, or do bloated teams fix that?

[rusty217]

1 hour ago, themodelcitizen said:

 

Could you use "ignore teams" to tell Spain to leave out teams in this thing, with a variable number of entrants? Then each season have the Superleague draw first, with only the top 17 or so (out of 20) having qualified for the next year. So it still thinks Barca are a la Liga team and they make signings, but they don't play any fixtures and don't get a ranking that year. Obviously pro/rel would still be a disaster

Possibly, but you'd have to think it would create a whole host of issues. You'd have to set the league up to be dynamic and adjust for fewer teams (although if like 8 Spanish teams end up in the Superleague because none get relegated and they keep doing well in Europe you could end up with like a 12 team league though). Also have to wonder how it would affect club expectations. If the board are expecting you to win the league, or qualify for the UCL, and you don't even participate in the league, is that a guaranteed sacking or something?

1 hour ago, Wolf_pd said:

Doesn't kill it their performance in the national league, or do bloated teams fix that?

I've only tried it with Africa, where I also cut all the leagues down to just 14 teams and reduced cup fixtures to in order to account for the Superleague fixtures. It wasn't an issue there, but I imagine if you're still playing full 20 team leagues plus all cups it would be an issue, yeah.

[themodelcitizen]

 

6 minutes ago, rusty217 said:

Possibly, but you'd have to think it would create a whole host of issues. You'd have to set the league up to be dynamic and adjust for fewer teams (although if like 8 Spanish teams end up in the Superleague because none get relegated and they keep doing well in Europe you could end up with like a 12 team league though). Also have to wonder how it would affect club expectations. If the board are expecting you to win the league, or qualify for the UCL, and you don't even participate in the league, is that a guaranteed sacking or something?

I've only tried it with Africa, where I also cut all the leagues down to just 14 teams and reduced cup fixtures to in order to account for the Superleague fixtures. It wasn't an issue there, but I imagine if you're still playing full 20 team leagues plus all cups it would be an issue, yeah.

Good questions. I know lots of people handle teams coming into leagues after a year or two (typically MLS and CanPL) by using "ignore teams" for the first season or two but I've never been truly comfortable with it for a lot of the same reasons.

Using team pools you could restrict it to, like, max 3 Spanish teams per year, after already setting an instruction to ignore anyone who finished 17th or lower last season.

Either way it needs lots of work and loads of testing, maybe something for FM24 after the last patch.

I recall your African stuff mainly because of the valuable testing it provided with using B teams in top leagues 

[rusty217]

10 minutes ago, themodelcitizen said:

Good questions. I know lots of people handle teams coming into leagues after a year or two (typically MLS and CanPL) by using "ignore teams" for the first season or two but I've never been truly comfortable with it for a lot of the same reasons.

Using team pools you could restrict it to, like, max 3 Spanish teams per year, after already setting an instruction to ignore anyone who finished 17th or lower last season.

Either way it needs lots of work and loads of testing, maybe something for FM24 after the last patch.

I recall your African stuff mainly because of the valuable testing it provided with using B teams in top leagues 

hmm, with the finished 17th or lower I suppose there's another what if there. The OP intended for a good UCL run to result in Superleague qualification, it's unlikely but what if a team went far in the UCL and also got relegated? Would you need to set it up to block their Superleague qualification for that? Block their relegation from La Liga? Or also setup ignore instructions and dynamic league sizes for the 2nd tier just in case. There really are a lot of things that could go wrong with it.

The African stuff was good fun. Actually made a few different versions with varying numbers of teams. Too bad all the FM patches kept making me have to re-do things. Was also trying to figure out how to have an overall table for all the groups and award two trophies, one for that winner and one for the knockout winner, just like the MLS. Never managed to get it working right though.

Gonna try and update it for FM24 when it releases. I wonder if the actual African Football League will make it into FM now though (it's due to start this week!). Ended up just being an 8 team knockout competition this year though, so not really what was originally planned.

Edited October 17, 2023 by rusty217

[themodelcitizen]

Yeah, my AFL file has the new 8-team tourney and then expands to 24 next year. It can run alongside domestic league files but the fixture congestion will be bonkers.

Your two trophy setup would rely on "other competition to use" for the league or cup stage? I was never really sure how to use rankings that way and would be reluctant to try and copy MLS because of all the weird moving parts. With all the format changes over the years it feels pretty patched together now and maybe not the best base anyway. You could always do the league as a separate stage with "don't rank teams using this stage" and "add history" so they get the history record but it's not the cleanest method to award competition wins 

[Samuel77]

I tested something a while ago, and it's possible to send teams from a continental competition to a national (secondary) division.

[Samuel77]

I found some screenshots that I sent to @Wolf_pd that were 3-4 years old. They were tests without pushing the envelope to see what was feasible.

 

 

 

The error message shows that Serie A has 5 clubs too many, which are the ones sent there from the continental cup (Plus Atalanta, who were already in Serie A)

I imagine that with a refined team selection system it should be possible to manage teams in the right divisions.

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Samuel77

[themodelcitizen]

At one point Rusty was experimenting with a scenario where (I think) if a team was in the Super League, their reserves were automatically selected for the domestic league instead. Interesting idea, just weird for history entries and such. Maybe a dedicated 'B' team (like the Spanish B teams that are a different club entirely) would work better

[Fire0Fart]

So I decided to give up this idea until fm24 and for now do it in a single nation file. 3 tiers (not sure about format and number of clubs yet), regional subdivisions below and a mini tournament with champions of those subdivisions for promotion. So, does the reputation of each subdivision change with time? For example england league reputation is 160 and Croatia at 120 and would those reputations change with time? There would be a lot of different cups with different reputations in the database.

[rusty217]

1 hour ago, Fire0Fart said:

So I decided to give up this idea until fm24 and for now do it in a single nation file. 3 tiers (not sure about format and number of clubs yet), regional subdivisions below and a mini tournament with champions of those subdivisions for promotion. So, does the reputation of each subdivision change with time? For example england league reputation is 160 and Croatia at 120 and would those reputations change with time? There would be a lot of different cups with different reputations in the database.

As far as I'm aware dynamic league reputation is tied directly to the default continental competitions. If you're not using the UCL etc. or you're using custom versions of them then league reputations are no longer dynamic (same with prize money since that changes alongside rep), so no they won't change.

I haven't tested it with Europe yet, but it's definitely the case in Asia at least. Using custom continental competitions there breaks dynamic league rep, so I'm assuming the other continents work the same way.

[Fire0Fart]

59 minutes ago, rusty217 said:

As far as I'm aware dynamic league reputation is tied directly to the default continental competitions. If you're not using the UCL etc. or you're using custom versions of them then league reputations are no longer dynamic (same with prize money since that changes alongside rep), so no they won't change.

I haven't tested it with Europe yet, but it's definitely the case in Asia at least. Using custom continental competitions there breaks dynamic league rep, so I'm assuming the other continents work the same way.

I thought so. I hope they improve editor a lot when FM25 comes out. What do you think the reputation and prize money should be for lower tiers? I just can't decide those things.

[themodelcitizen]

10 hours ago, rusty217 said:

As far as I'm aware dynamic league reputation is tied directly to the default continental competitions. If you're not using the UCL etc. or you're using custom versions of them then league reputations are no longer dynamic (same with prize money since that changes alongside rep), so no they won't change.

I haven't tested it with Europe yet, but it's definitely the case in Asia at least. Using custom continental competitions there breaks dynamic league rep, so I'm assuming the other continents work the same way.

Custom how? Like rebuilding the whole thing? My edited ACL (rules accessed via pasting the entire list like I described in the other thread) still has the variable coefficients/qualifying places, and competitions are still going up and down in the reputation list (just checked a test file from 2038)

My FIFA CL file has edited ACL and UCL as well (no final round) and the coefficients still "work" (just not well given all my changes), that needs some tweaking but they haven't broken like I thought they would. Wonder if it's because I didn't change "qualified teams" at all (just manually added Russian teams to ACL)

Edited November 1, 2023 by themodelcitizen

[rusty217]

5 hours ago, themodelcitizen said:

Custom how? Like rebuilding the whole thing? My edited ACL (rules accessed via pasting the entire list like I described in the other thread) still has the variable coefficients/qualifying places, and competitions are still going up and down in the reputation list (just checked a test file from 2038)

My FIFA CL file has edited ACL and UCL as well (no final round) and the coefficients still "work" (just not well given all my changes), that needs some tweaking but they haven't broken like I thought they would. Wonder if it's because I didn't change "qualified teams" at all (just manually added Russian teams to ACL)

As in one that replaces the original competition. The coefficients/qualifying places are the important part. If you create a new competition, even if you include coefficients and variable qualification places, reputations won't change. Teams will gain/lose places still though based on the coefficients. And the coefficients/qualifying places aren't visible anymore. Really wish custom continental competitions still had full functionality.

If you've just edited/added to the default competition then dynamic reputation/coefficients still work. I've edited the CONCACAF CL, Libertadores, ACL, and CAF CL without issue in that regard, it's only when I tried replacing the default ACL with my own qualifying setup that dynamic rep broke.

[themodelcitizen]

Ahh, OK,  I suppose if you had a file for every country enabled with "continental cup rules" set to qualify teams to the new competition, it might be worth testing to see if coefficients keep working. If you use the UCL unique ID and change just about everything else but still have enough room to accommodate the default qualified teams, I wonder if the co-efficients and "places" screen would keep adjusting

Edited November 1, 2023 by themodelcitizen

[Fire0Fart]

On 01/11/2023 at 06:54, rusty217 said:

As in one that replaces the original competition. The coefficients/qualifying places are the important part. If you create a new competition, even if you include coefficients and variable qualification places, reputations won't change. Teams will gain/lose places still though based on the coefficients. And the coefficients/qualifying places aren't visible anymore. Really wish custom continental competitions still had full functionality.

If you've just edited/added to the default competition then dynamic reputation/coefficients still work. I've edited the CONCACAF CL, Libertadores, ACL, and CAF CL without issue in that regard, it's only when I tried replacing the default ACL with my own qualifying setup that dynamic rep broke.

So, what if i change number of nations qualifying for the champions league and number of clubs would it still work?

[rusty217]

7 hours ago, Fire0Fart said:

So, what if i change number of nations qualifying for the champions league and number of clubs would it still work?

No, that would be a change to the qualifying system so it would break dynamic league rep and make coefficients not display properly. Coefficient changes should still work, they'll just be hidden in the background.

Everything else other than that should still work fine though.