What do you think of the new European competitions format?

[Stone Cold]

As we know, it will change next season. The only experience we've had with it was in FM23 so far.

I am not a big fan of the concept. First of all, I love the Champions League group stage and its draw, and I am definitely going to miss that. FM23 is the game we finally get the UEFA competitions licensed and the whole atmosphere of the group stages draw and are only able to experience it in the first couple of seasons of a save. Second, is there not match-up draw? All I get is a mail telling me the teams I face. There's no public draw ceremony. How do we know UEFA isn't just hand picking match-ups in order to favour the more powerful clubs? Third, 2 extra games just add to more fixture congestion in the game and will do irl as well. As if we haven't had enough of a problem in European football with that already. And finally, the position you finish the league stage in doesn't seem that relevant. As in, it doesn't matter if you finish 1st or 8th. You're going through and can face any of the teams that finished 9th-24th and survived the play-off round. Which means you can finish 1st and draw the 9th placed team while the team that finished 8th can draw the team that finished 24th. I'm glad there's still draws in the knock-out rounds but the whole concept is flawed. The group stage was more straight forward and fairer. You finish 1st? You get to face teams that finished 2nd. 

One positive thing I can say, though: No more dropping down to other UEFA competitions. That's going to be a lot more interesting. I haven't been keeping track, but I'm pretty sure the majority of the clubs that won the UEFA Cup/Europa League in my lifetime were teams that finished 3rd in the Champions League group stage. At least there always seems to be a team that came from the CL in the EL final. You can never predict who's winning the competition when it begins because you gotta wait for those 8 3rd placed CL teams to join it after December, and there's always at least a strong contender among those. The Conference League is going to become more interesting too. In the 2025/2026 season of my current save. the final of the ECL is going to be SC Herenveen vs. Brighton. It will be interesting if the Dutch side win it.

But basically, UEFA just want more games to increase profit. They don't care if it's hell on the players bodies since football is a business for them and profit is all that matters. It also feels like some sort of compromise between UEFA and the big 5 top clubs. This seems close to the European Super League those guys wanted to form.

That being said, I'm going to wait to see how it pans out in real life to see how it works. And perhaps UEFA will do a few tweaks in their new system some years down the road, who knows. I'm not against change, per se. But are things really changing for the best? The only major flaw I can find in the current system is the fact 3rd placed CL teams drop down to the EL and 3rd placed EL teams drop down to the ECL. But that could easily have been fixed without needing to change the format of the European competitions.

[Carmi88]

Much more dramatic than the group stage and I really like it. UEFA are moneygrabbers no doubt, but I much prefer the new format to the old

[Stone Cold]

15 minutos atrás, Carmi88 disse:

Much more dramatic than the group stage and I really like it. UEFA are moneygrabbers no doubt, but I much prefer the new format to the old

Well, there is potential for very emotional last match days, true. While in the current system there will be one or maybe two groups at best that are still open after 4 matches.

[Stewart91]

I didn't know there would be no dropping down of teams. I definitely prefer this.

It should never have been a thing in the first place.

[ElJuanvito]

I'll reserve final judgment until I see it in real life, but based on how it works in FM I kinda like it. I'd make a few tweaks, though.

[Zapoleon]

not sure on the new system yet. But the group stage I think was defo stale and needed a revamp. 

[bigmattb28]

It's all about those TV games and the extra £££

[Stone Cold]

1 hora atrás, Stewart91 disse:

I didn't know there would be no dropping down of teams. I definitely prefer this.

It should never have been a thing in the first place.

Yeah. It never made sense. You finish 3rd in the group stage and are rewarded with dropping down to the "lower division" European competition. What? 

1 hora atrás, Zapoleon disse:

not sure on the new system yet. But the group stage I think was defo stale and needed a revamp. 

Was it really? I don't think so. We've had some surprising results in the CL group stage in the past several seasons. I never was fond of the rebranding of the UEFA Cup to Europa League and adding a group stage, though. But I guess UEFA wanted to add some consistency to their competitions.

38 minutos atrás, bigmattb28 disse:

It's all about those TV games and the extra £££

Well, duh. That's all UEFA cares about. Doesn't matter if the quality of the football suffers from it. Clubs like Real Madrid and Manchester City will have more matches to play in the Champions League, which will make millions of people around the world happy and UEFA and those clubs even wealthier than they already are. 

[Dreambuilder]

3 hours ago, Stone Cold said:

As we know, it will change next season. The only experience we've had with it was in FM23 so far.

I am not a big fan of the concept. First of all, I love the Champions League group stage and its draw, and I am definitely going to miss that. FM23 is the game we finally get the UEFA competitions licensed and the whole atmosphere of the group stages draw and are only able to experience it in the first couple of seasons of a save. Second, is there not match-up draw? All I get is a mail telling me the teams I face. There's no public draw ceremony. How do we know UEFA isn't just hand picking match-ups in order to favour the more powerful clubs? Third, 2 extra games just add to more fixture congestion in the game and will do irl as well. As if we haven't had enough of a problem in European football with that already. And finally, the position you finish the league stage in doesn't seem that relevant. As in, it doesn't matter if you finish 1st or 8th. You're going through and can face any of the teams that finished 9th-24th and survived the play-off round. Which means you can finish 1st and draw the 9th placed team while the team that finished 8th can draw the team that finished 24th. I'm glad there's still draws in the knock-out rounds but the whole concept is flawed. The group stage was more straight forward and fairer. You finish 1st? You get to face teams that finished 2nd. 

One positive thing I can say, though: No more dropping down to other UEFA competitions. That's going to be a lot more interesting. I haven't been keeping track, but I'm pretty sure the majority of the clubs that won the UEFA Cup/Europa League in my lifetime were teams that finished 3rd in the Champions League group stage. At least there always seems to be a team that came from the CL in the EL final. You can never predict who's winning the competition when it begins because you gotta wait for those 8 3rd placed CL teams to join it after December, and there's always at least a strong contender among those. The Conference League is going to become more interesting too. In the 2025/2026 season of my current save. the final of the ECL is going to be SC Herenveen vs. Brighton. It will be interesting if the Dutch side win it.

But basically, UEFA just want more games to increase profit. They don't care if it's hell on the players bodies since football is a business for them and profit is all that matters. It also feels like some sort of compromise between UEFA and the big 5 top clubs. This seems close to the European Super League those guys wanted to form.

That being said, I'm going to wait to see how it pans out in real life to see how it works. And perhaps UEFA will do a few tweaks in their new system some years down the road, who knows. I'm not against change, per se. But are things really changing for the best? The only major flaw I can find in the current system is the fact 3rd placed CL teams drop down to the EL and 3rd placed EL teams drop down to the ECL. But that could easily have been fixed without needing to change the format of the European competitions.

I like it because more games and less random table positions. On the other hand, that probably is better news for the rich teams than the small teams. Damn.

[XaW]

In real life I like it in theory, but we'll see. In FM, I really dislike it and think the old style were much better.

[Stone Cold]

2 horas atrás, Dreambuilder disse:

I like it because more games and less random table positions. On the other hand, that probably is better news for the rich teams than the small teams. Damn.

What do you mean by random table positions?

36 minutos atrás, XaW disse:

In real life I like it in theory, but we'll see. In FM, I really dislike it and think the old style were much better.

When I get FM24, I think I'll download a mod that keeps the previous format. But on the other hand, I do like the idea of teams not dropping down anymore. And I also don't think it would be a good idea to live through a virtual reality farther away from real life than it already is.

 

[\'Appy \'Ammer]

Rubbish. It's a step closer to a super league. Too many teams qualifying for it from individual countries. It all started going downhill after 1992 ☹️

[irish kopite]

I think the new Swiss format is a totally ludicrous concept which undermines the integrity of European competition. As Appy says above, they have gone downhill progressively since 1992, especially the European Cup. What has happened to that once great competition is borderline criminal.

[Stone Cold]

3 horas atrás, \'Appy \'Ammer disse:

Rubbish. It's a step closer to a super league. Too many teams qualifying for it from individual countries. It all started going downhill after 1992 ☹️

 

36 minutos atrás, irish kopite disse:

I think the new Swiss format is a totally ludicrous concept which undermines the integrity of European competition. As Appy says above, they have gone downhill progressively since 1992, especially the European Cup. What has happened to that once great competition is borderline criminal.

Yeah, it doesn't make sense in a league of 36 teams for each team to only face 8 of the other 35 teams. I forgot to mention that.

Well, being 32 years old, I am obviously not old enough to remember the European Cup and football pre-Bosman rule. My earliest memory of football is watching the 1998 World Cup. It is odd indeed to call a competition Champions League when a lot of non-champions get in it every season. But sadly, the precedent has been set a long time ago and now there's no going back. 

I also disliked UEFA increasing the Euro from 16 to 24 teams. And FIFA increasing the World Cup from 32 to 48 countries from 2026 on is also not a good idea, imo. 

I do wonder what the football will look like 30 years from now on. By then, if I'm still around, I'll probably be too old to care anymore.

[Pafnus]

New format is so good.. i like it. A team plays 8 different teams instead  3 diffirent trams ( 2 match).. it give much more match potential..

 

Also legue table ensures all teams should struggle until last minute. 

 

Very creative and nice changes.

[USASoundersFan]

I really don't like a format in which the schedule is unbalanced. Every team should play every other team in their group an equal number of times. I know that they're aiming to have everyone play roughly equal schedules compared to everyone else as far as the strength of their fixtures lists goes, but there's absolutely no guaranteeing that.

I remember when CONCACAF did this type of format for qualifying for their first Nations League, and I thought that was a really stupid format as it was going on.

I do like no dropping down to other competitions, but, of course, that could have been implemented with the current system pretty easily.

[rusty217]

I really like it. I have a couple issues with it. For starters I don't like the removal of drop down to the lower competitions (hoping it's editable this yeah, so I can add it back in myself. My plan is for the knockout playoff to just be 1 leg, winner goes through to the R16, loser players a 2nd 1 leg playoff with a Europa League team to get into the Europa R16). I did prefer the original proposal of 10 games as well, rather than the 8 it ended up as. I'd also like a few more teams (via the qualifying playoffs) to give it a bit more diversity.

But yeah, other than that I love the idea. The extra games isn't really an issue. The French Ligue 1 contracted to 18 teams partially to account for the extra European fixtures (it was also so TV revenue would be shared between less teams giving each team a bigger share) and I don't see the issue with other leagues following suit. That's 4 less league games with only 2 more European games (they voted on the contraction while it was planned to be 10 league stage games, so they would've played the same number of games, just changed some league ones to European ones instead). I actually edited England, Spain and Italy in my FM23 game to contract to 18 teams from the 24-25 season too.

Edited October 16, 2023 by rusty217

[Dagenham_Dave]

It's an awful idea, driven by money and nothing else. 

A 36 team league is just fundamentally stupid, even more so when you consider 24 of these teams will make it to a knockout round. There is now zero chance that the bigger teams will not progress. Compare that to now - In Newcastle's group, one team is going out and another will drop to the Europa League - None of these 4 teams would be in any danger of not making it to at least the playoff knockout round in the new format. It just devalues the whole group/league stage whilst adding in an extra 2 games to make more money. 

Rubbish. 

[CLS]

Controversial, but I actually really like it.

 

The Group Stage had honestly got very dull and predictable. The disparity in quality between teams was amplified by the fact that, by definition, the better teams will have easier opponents because they don't have to face themselves, and vice-versa for the lower-quality sides. The new format fixes that precisely by not having everyone play everyone else in a group. On top of this, it creates a much bigger bigger incentive to do very well and finish in the Top 8 rather than just scrape through - skipping a knockout round is a much bigger deal than the reward for winning a CL group of playing a runner-up away from home first. And finally, it gets rid of the teams dropping down to the Europa League, while still avoiding dead-rubbers by giving bottom-half sides a chance to still make the Playoff round.

It gets criticised for the fixture congestion, but it's worth noting that between 1999 and 2003, the Champions League had a Second Group Stage. This meant that sides reaching the final would play 17 games, and potentially 19 if they came in at the 3rd Qualifying Round as the 3rd and 4th placed teams from England did at the time.  Under the new format meanwhile, sides reaching the final will play either 15 or 17 games depending on whether they finish in the Top 8 or need a playoff. Given we're now in an era of bigger squads and enhanced fitness, I don't think that's a huge problem - managers will just need to rotate a little more.

Edited October 17, 2023 by CLS

[Stone Cold]

3 horas atrás, rusty217 disse:

I really like it. I have a couple issues with it. For starters I don't like the removal of drop down to the lower competitions (hoping it's editable this yeah, so I can add it back in myself. My plan is for the knockout playoff to just be 1 leg, winner goes through to the R16, loser players a 2nd 1 leg playoff with a Europa League team to get into the Europa R16). I did prefer the original proposal of 10 games as well, rather than the 8 it ended up as. I'd also like a few more teams (via the qualifying playoffs) to give it a bit more diversity.

But yeah, other than that I love the idea. The extra games isn't really an issue. The French Ligue 1 contracted to 18 teams partially to account for the extra European fixtures (it was also so TV revenue would be shared between less teams giving each team a bigger share) and I don't see the issue with other leagues following suit. That's 4 less league games with only 2 more European games (they voted on the contraction while it was planned to be 10 league stage games, so they would've played the same number of games, just changed some league ones to European ones instead). I actually edited England, Spain and Italy in my FM23 game to contract to 18 teams from the 24-25 season too.

Why do you dislike the removal of dropping down to lower competitions?

Well, Ligue 1 was smart. I wish Primeira Liga did the same. We used to have 16 teams in it between 2006 and 2014 and  then went back to having 18 teams. 18 teams is too much for such a small country.

2 horas atrás, Dagenham_Dave disse:

It's an awful idea, driven by money and nothing else. 

A 36 team league is just fundamentally stupid, even more so when you consider 24 of these teams will make it to a knockout round. There is now zero chance that the bigger teams will not progress. Compare that to now - In Newcastle's group, one team is going out and another will drop to the Europa League - None of these 4 teams would be in any danger of not making it to at least the playoff knockout round in the new format. It just devalues the whole group/league stage whilst adding in an extra 2 games to make more money. 

Rubbish. 

Oh yeah good point. 

28 minutos atrás, CLS disse:

Controversial, but I actually really like it.

 

The Group Stage had honestly got very dull and predictable. The disparity in quality between teams was amplified by the fact that, by definition, the better teams will have easier opponents because they don't have to face themselves, and vice-versa for the lower-quality sides. The new format fixes that precisely by not having everyone play everyone else in a group. On top of this, it creates a much bigger bigger incentive to do very well and finish in the Top 8 rather than just scrape through - skipping a knockout round is a much bigger deal than the reward for winning a CL group of playing a runner-up away from home first. And finally, it gets rid of the teams dropping down to the Europa League, while still avoiding dead-rubbers by giving bottom-half sides a chance to still make the Playoff round.

It gets criticised for the fixture congestion, but it's worth noting that between 1999 and 2003, the Champions League had a Second Group Stage. This meant that sides reaching the final would play 17 games, and potentially if they came in at the 3rd Qualifying Round as the 3rd and 4th placed teams from England did at the time.  Under the new format meanwhile, sides reaching the final will play either 15 or 17 games depending on whether they finish in the Top 8 or need a playoff. Given we're now in an era of bigger squads and enhanced fitness, I don't think that's a huge problem - managers will just need to rotate a little more.

Dull and predictable? In the last few years you've had Barcelona, Manchester United, Borussia Dortmund and Juventus finishing 3rd, and Atlético de Madrid and AC Milan finishing 4th. And also debutant Moldovan side Sheriff beating Real Madrid away. The CL gets predictable in the QFs, but not so much in the group stage. And the new format isn't going to make the QFs and beyond less predictable, imo. We all know that it's going to be the usual suspects contending for the trophy.  

I remember that period. I was a kid, so I didn't think about the consequences of fixture congestion at the time, in addition to the fact that Benfica was going through its worst period in history and did not make the Champions League in those years. But if you want an example of consequences then look at the 2002 World Cup. Players like Figo, Zidane and Henry were physically in shambles by the time that competition arrived. There must have been a reason for UEFA to scrap that format after 4 seasons only.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Stone Cold

[irish kopite]

5 hours ago, Stone Cold said:

Why do you dislike the removal of dropping down to lower competitions?

Well, Ligue 1 was smart. I wish Primeira Liga did the same. We used to have 16 teams in it between 2006 and 2014 and  then went back to having 18 teams. 18 teams is too much for such a small country.

Oh yeah good point. 

Dull and predictable? In the last few years you've had Barcelona, Manchester United, Borussia Dortmund and Juventus finishing 3rd, and Atlético de Madrid and AC Milan finishing 4th. And also debutant Moldovan side Sheriff beating Real Madrid away. The CL gets predictable in the QFs, but not so much in the group stage. And the new format isn't going to make the QFs and beyond less predictable, imo. We all know that it's going to be the usual suspects contending for the trophy.  

I remember that period. I was a kid, so I didn't think about the consequences of fixture congestion at the time, in addition to the fact that Benfica was going through its worst period in history and did not make the Champions League in those years. But if you want an example of consequences then look at the 2002 World Cup. Players like Figo, Zidane and Henry were physically in shambles by the time that competition arrived. There must have been a reason for UEFA to scrap that format after 4 seasons only.

From memory, it was scrapped for a few reasons. The main reason being there were just too many games for the big clubs and big players. By 2002, the globalization of the European game had accelerated to the point that the big European clubs had started to hoard the world's best players. The 2002 World Cup highlighted this and the 02/03 CL was the last 2nd round group stage.

It was also felt an entirely post- Christmas knockout competiton would create even more interest and excitement. Football fans identify more with the 32 team World Cup format and again from memory, UEFA wished to sprinkle its blue-chip competition with some of its gold dust.

 

[rusty217]

11 hours ago, Stone Cold said:

Why do you dislike the removal of dropping down to lower competitions?

Well, Ligue 1 was smart. I wish Primeira Liga did the same. We used to have 16 teams in it between 2006 and 2014 and  then went back to having 18 teams. 18 teams is too much for such a small country.

Because most teams in the competition don't have a realistic chance of winning it. The last underdog winner we had was Porto in 2004, and even at their worst they'd still be in the top 50% of teams in the competition. Being able to aim for 3rd and a Europa League run still gave those teams a realistic target. Like in this years UCL, how far can teams like Copenhagen, Feyenoord, Celtic, Young Boys etc. really hope to go? Even the R16 will be hard for them and it's unlikely they'd get beyond that, but dropping down to the Europa they have a decent chance of quarters or even later there.

Without that it feels kind of futile as the teams that would usually finish 3rd/4th in their groups. Even if you perform above expectations and get through to the next round, you're probably just going to get thrashed by a big team and go straight out, at least with drop down performing above expectations could have rewarded you with a crack at the Europa League, where even if you still lose it should at least be a closer game.

Specific to FM, sometimes I'd even intentionally target 3rd, rather than 2nd, knowing that my team was no way good enough to win the competition, but maybe with a bit of luck we could win the Europa.

[CLS]

6 hours ago, rusty217 said:

Because most teams in the competition don't have a realistic chance of winning it. The last underdog winner we had was Porto in 2004, and even at their worst they'd still be in the top 50% of teams in the competition. Being able to aim for 3rd and a Europa League run still gave those teams a realistic target. Like in this years UCL, how far can teams like Copenhagen, Feyenoord, Celtic, Young Boys etc. really hope to go? Even the R16 will be hard for them and it's unlikely they'd get beyond that, but dropping down to the Europa they have a decent chance of quarters or even later there.

Without that it feels kind of futile as the teams that would usually finish 3rd/4th in their groups. Even if you perform above expectations and get through to the next round, you're probably just going to get thrashed by a big team and go straight out, at least with drop down performing above expectations could have rewarded you with a crack at the Europa League, where even if you still lose it should at least be a closer game.

Specific to FM, sometimes I'd even intentionally target 3rd, rather than 2nd, knowing that my team was no way good enough to win the competition, but maybe with a bit of luck we could win the Europa.

The thing is that those sides don't have any realistic hope of winning the Europa League in the current format, either. The last time someone of that stature won it was way back in 2009 with Shakhtar Donetsk. And part of the reason behind that is that the 3rd place teams dropping down regularly include big sides from wealthy leagues who've either had a tough draw or underperformed in the CL group stage - on 5 of those occasions since 2009 it's been such a team who've won the Europa League. Those kind of sides you've mentioned won't be in the CL every year, they'll often be in the EL, and when they are, they'll have better prospects with the new format.

[Dotsworthy]

In addition to a lot of good points above, the other issue I have is the lack of variety. The previous format meant you could play against unique teams every year at the group stage level, and then encounter the usual suspects at the later stages. You would think the league format would have more variety but in my current game I seem to play Real Madrid in the league stage every year without fail.

[metallimuse]

On 15/10/2023 at 20:34, \'Appy \'Ammer said:

Rubbish. It's a step closer to a super league. Too many teams qualifying for it from individual countries. It all started going downhill after 1992 ☹️

It's gone too far now and will never recover, I doubt we will see anyone outside of the 5 big markets win it now. Even now who was the last one? Mourinho's Porto? That was like near 20 year ago.

They made a mistake by trying to maximize the teams from the big markets playing as a right to try and increase the commercial market and they should have made the majority of the profits given to the FA's not the clubs themselves. Sporting integrity and healthy competition has been lost because of these things.

[rusty217]

5 hours ago, CLS said:

The thing is that those sides don't have any realistic hope of winning the Europa League in the current format, either. The last time someone of that stature won it was way back in 2009 with Shakhtar Donetsk. And part of the reason behind that is that the 3rd place teams dropping down regularly include big sides from wealthy leagues who've either had a tough draw or underperformed in the CL group stage - on 5 of those occasions since 2009 it's been such a team who've won the Europa League. Those kind of sides you've mentioned won't be in the CL every year, they'll often be in the EL, and when they are, they'll have better prospects with the new format.

Rangers in 2022? They didn't win it, but they got to the final. I definitely think teams like Celtic and Feyenoord are at a similar level to that Rangers side. They're not among the favourites to win it, but they certainly have a shot at getting far even if they don't. Feyenoord were actually quarter finalists just last year and only lost after extra time, so were awfully close to being in the semis. I don't see why they couldn't get that far, or potentially even a bit further, again this year if they do drop down.

You mention Shakhtar winning in 2009 and since then 6 of the 13 teams that have dropped down from the UCL and made the final have been from outside the top 5 leagues. Even if they haven't won it, getting to a European final is much better for those clubs than their European season just ending in January. Granted, those teams also include teams that dropped down from the qualifiers, which will still happen, but some did come from the Group Stage and will no longer have that opportunity.

TBH it's probably worse for the Conference League than it is the Europa League, it's just too new a competition to have much data to show that. The teams from the top 5 leagues are going to be overwhelming favourites to win it. Teams dropping down from the Europa mixes that up a bit and actually gives them a challenge. Last season, it doesn't look like any of the teams that dropped down to the ECL actually did that well, but you have the likes of Ludogorets (strongest club in Bulgaria), Sheriff (strongest club in Moldova), Braga (one of the strongest teams outside Portugal's big 3) & Trabzonspor (one of Turkey's big 4) in there. I definitely think the ECL is better off with those clubs. They add some more diversity and are potential cup winners, giving the teams from the top 5 leagues some tougher competition. It's partially meant as a European trophy for the strongest clubs from the weaker countries, right? But that doesn't really work if those clubs get stuck in the Europa League or something and can't drop down to it when they're not good enough for the Europa.

[burbigo3]

I really prefer the new format, I like it.

 

_{Mini Militia App Lock}

Edited October 26, 2023 by burbigo3

[USASoundersFan]

On 17/10/2023 at 17:41, rusty217 said:

TBH it's probably worse for the Conference League than it is the Europa League, it's just too new a competition to have much data to show that. The teams from the top 5 leagues are going to be overwhelming favourites to win it. Teams dropping down from the Europa mixes that up a bit and actually gives them a challenge. Last season, it doesn't look like any of the teams that dropped down to the ECL actually did that well, but you have the likes of Ludogorets (strongest club in Bulgaria), Sheriff (strongest club in Moldova), Braga (one of the strongest teams outside Portugal's big 3) & Trabzonspor (one of Turkey's big 4) in there. I definitely think the ECL is better off with those clubs. They add some more diversity and are potential cup winners, giving the teams from the top 5 leagues some tougher competition. It's partially meant as a European trophy for the strongest clubs from the weaker countries, right? But that doesn't really work if those clubs get stuck in the Europa League or something and can't drop down to it when they're not good enough for the Europa.

When I first heard about the Conference League, I was intrigued/excited as I thought that it would only include the bottom half of the countries in the coefficient or something like that, but once I heard that teams from the top leagues would take part too, I quickly lost interest (what's the point?) and was amazed that many were shocked that the first final featured fairly big name clubs.

They should have had the Europa League change to being only for clubs from the top half of the countries in the coefficient and then have the Conference League for the bottom half countries.

[Arijit]

All I'd say, I am excited to see it in real life and play it in FM24.

[rusty217]

8 hours ago, USASoundersFan said:

When I first heard about the Conference League, I was intrigued/excited as I thought that it would only include the bottom half of the countries in the coefficient or something like that, but once I heard that teams from the top leagues would take part too, I quickly lost interest (what's the point?) and was amazed that many were shocked that the first final featured fairly big name clubs.

They should have had the Europa League change to being only for clubs from the top half of the countries in the coefficient and then have the Conference League for the bottom half countries.

That would've been cool. It's also how Asia will be doing it (hopefully their new formats are in FM24 too).

But the point is money. The Conference League simply earns a lot more money by having 1 team from England, Germany, Spain etc. than it would without it. The EFL Cup is the same. It includes EPL clubs because it needs them for the money. League One and Two clubs get massive paydays if they end up playing an EPL club, even for the Championship clubs the TV revenue etc. is higher due to EPL clubs being involved. The EFL were strongly against the superleague for that reason actually, they were worried the superleague clubs would ditch the EFL Cup and lose their clubs a bunch of revenue (with many EFL clubs struggling for cash already). I imagine if UEFA ever suggested removing the top countries from the conference league the other countries would be against it for the same reasons.

[DMC-12]

Its awful, and its designed purely to benefit the top 5 leagues to ensure their sides remain in the Champions League as long as possible. And my making the same changes to the Europa League and the Conference League, it means that winners from outside of those top 5 leagues are now highly unlikely. 

Which is what Uefa wants. 

[USASoundersFan]

3 hours ago, rusty217 said:

But the point is money. The Conference League simply earns a lot more money by having 1 team from England, Germany, Spain etc. than it would without it.

Yeah. Unfortunately.

3 hours ago, rusty217 said:

I imagine if UEFA ever suggested removing the top countries from the conference league the other countries would be against it for the same reasons.

I'm not sure if this is true as those countries being able to realistically win a European competition is a definite positive. But perhaps you're right.

And I don't think that lower-league teams wanted top-tier youth sides in the EFL Trophy. I'm not sure if they would want top-tier first sides.

[irish kopite]

7 minutes ago, USASoundersFan said:

Yeah. Unfortunately.

I'm not sure if this is true as those countries being able to realistically win a European competition is a definite positive. But perhaps you're right.

And I don't think that lower-league teams wanted top-tier youth sides in the EFL Trophy. I'm not sure if they would want top-tier first sides.

My original thinking on the Conference was teams from the Big 5 leagues should be kept out of it but commercial reasons alas mean that'll never will happen. If it did, it may kill off the competition for good.

A third competition is good. The unintended consequences of commercial necessity though is teams from those very same big leagues who may never win a CL or even the Europa have a good chance of winning a European trophy and I was delighted to see West Ham do so back in May, memories that will last a lifetime @'appy 'ammer. That has to be a good thing as seeing the same old teams winning European trophies gets boring.

[rusty217]

19 minutes ago, USASoundersFan said:

Yeah. Unfortunately.

I'm not sure if this is true as those countries being able to realistically win a European competition is a definite positive. But perhaps you're right.

And I don't think that lower-league teams wanted top-tier youth sides in the EFL Trophy. I'm not sure if they would want top-tier first sides.

I was talking about the EFL Cup (I refuse to use some silly sponsor name that I've never even heard of!), not the EFL trophy. They definitely don't want to lose the top sides https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/european-super-league-efl-league-cup-fears-b930514.html

Edited October 19, 2023 by rusty217

[\'Appy \'Ammer]

49 minutes ago, irish kopite said:

A third competition is good.

Yes, and that used to be the European Cup Winners' Cup ! I've been reading "A Tournament Frozen In Time" by Steven Scragg. For anyone who's a fan of the old European competitions, his trilogy are a cracking read. And how I wish UEFA didn't get rid of the 'away goal' rule. Can't believe they opted for replays before that rule, and penalties to decide matches, were brought in. 

[\'Appy \'Ammer]

@'appy 'ammer isn't me @irish kopite, I've had to put these stupid \ signs into my username! However I'm sure they were equally delighted to see West Ham lift the Conference trophy which gave us Europa League qualification. ⚒️⚒️⚒️

[irish kopite]

1 hour ago, \'Appy \'Ammer said:

Yes, and that used to be the European Cup Winners' Cup ! I've been reading "A Tournament Frozen In Time" by Steven Scragg. For anyone who's a fan of the old European competitions, his trilogy are a cracking read. And how I wish UEFA didn't get rid of the 'away goal' rule. Can't believe they opted for replays before that rule, and penalties to decide matches, were brought in. 

I got the title to my thread in the FM23 editor forum from that book! He has a book on each of the three old comps, great reads. 

[\'Appy \'Ammer]

1 hour ago, irish kopite said:

I got the title to my thread in the FM23 editor forum from that book! He has a book on each of the three old comps, great reads. 

Yeah then I stole it for the title of my career forum save 😁

[Pafnus]

8 saat önce, rusty217 said:

That would've been cool. It's also how Asia will be doing it (hopefully their new formats are in FM24 too).

But the point is money. The Conference League simply earns a lot more money by having 1 team from England, Germany, Spain etc. than it would without it. The EFL Cup is the same. It includes EPL clubs because it needs them for the money. League One and Two clubs get massive paydays if they end up playing an EPL club, even for the Championship clubs the TV revenue etc. is higher due to EPL clubs being involved. The EFL were strongly against the superleague for that reason actually, they were worried the superleague clubs would ditch the EFL Cup and lose their clubs a bunch of revenue (with many EFL clubs struggling for cash already). I imagine if UEFA ever suggested removing the top countries from the conference league the other countries would be against it for the same reasons.

How eill be afc champions league format?

[rusty217]

1 hour ago, Pafnus said:

How eill be afc champions league format?

It's going to a 3 tier format like Europe.

The 1st tier (Champions League Elite) is exclusively for the top 6 leagues from the East/West regions (so 12 countries total). It will have 2 groups of 12 (one East and one West) with teams playing 8 matches each. Top 8 from each group advances to R16. QFs onwards are held at a host country.

The 2nd tier (Champions League 2) is for the top 12 leagues from East/West and uses the traditional 32 team group stage, 8 groups of 4 with top 2 advancing to R16.

The 3rd tier (Challenge League) excludes the top 10 leagues from East/West and only has the ones below that (it does have the teams that lose the CL2 qualifying playoffs though, so will have a couple teams from the 8th/9th and 10th places leagues). It will be 5 groups of 4 for the group stage. With teams playing each other just once in a host country. The best 8 proceed to the QFs. QFs and SFs are 2 legged home and away matches. Then the final is a one off match at a host stadium.

[Pafnus]

1 saat önce, rusty217 said:

It's going to a 3 tier format like Europe.

The 1st tier (Champions League Elite) is exclusively for the top 6 leagues from the East/West regions (so 12 countries total). It will have 2 groups of 12 (one East and one West) with teams playing 8 matches each. Top 8 from each group advances to R16. QFs onwards are held at a host country.

The 2nd tier (Champions League 2) is for the top 12 leagues from East/West and uses the traditional 32 team group stage, 8 groups of 4 with top 2 advancing to R16.

The 3rd tier (Challenge League) excludes the top 10 leagues from East/West and only has the ones below that (it does have the teams that lose the CL2 qualifying playoffs though, so will have a couple teams from the 8th/9th and 10th places leagues). It will be 5 groups of 4 for the group stage. With teams playing each other just once in a host country. The best 8 proceed to the QFs. QFs and SFs are 2 legged home and away matches. Then the final is a one off match at a host stadium.

Oh thankss

[Yuko]

Not a fan of the new system. 

 

I much preferred the CL era with 2 group stages from 1999 to 2003. Can genuinely say it's the only CL era I have good memories of as a neutral. 

 

If we hadn't abandoned that, I don't think we'd be in this situation of disparity that we currently witness. This and the disastrous Platini path where teams that should be playing in CL were cancelled out by playing other CL worthy teams just for the sake of adding minnows that would probably never beat the teams from the other paths in a KO situation. That watered down the level of CL after 2009.

Adding more "big league" teams came because of the KO system where teams that managed to reach the last 16 got battered by a top contender.

Had we still gave them a chance to play 4 more games at that level without the do or die situation, we'd still see teams from the "minorities" advance to the last 16, but not only we stopped doing that, we stopped giving them a chance to participate.

For example 1999-00 we had 21 teams from 6 leagues entering but only 18 reached the first groups as Parma, Lyon and Mallorca failed to qualify. If the setup was different. Different era of course, quality gap wasn't as big.

Four teams that weren't in the top 6 reached the last 16 and 1 managed to get through the 2nd group (Porto).

Next year that was 5/16. Again one in quarters (Galatasaray)

Third time, again 5/16. Panathinaikos reached quarters.

Final season this was applied, just 2/16 and no QFs.

 

The CL has turned into an affair of 2-3 leagues and two outsiders (Bayern and PSG). 

There's nothing to like when they're handing more spots to these leagues and keep this segregated qualification system.

[USASoundersFan]

19 hours ago, rusty217 said:

I was talking about the EFL Cup (I refuse to use some silly sponsor name that I've never even heard of!), not the EFL trophy. They definitely don't want to lose the top sides https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/european-super-league-efl-league-cup-fears-b930514.html

I know you were. I intentionally brought up the EFL Trophy.

[arthurbf10]

On FM? Like it a lot. Hate it in real life, calendar is already overloaded as is, if anything the number of games should be reduced

[DMaster2]

Il 16/10/2023 in 13:02 , Dagenham_Dave ha scritto:

It's an awful idea, driven by money and nothing else. 

A 36 team league is just fundamentally stupid, even more so when you consider 24 of these teams will make it to a knockout round. There is now zero chance that the bigger teams will not progress. Compare that to now - In Newcastle's group, one team is going out and another will drop to the Europa League - None of these 4 teams would be in any danger of not making it to at least the playoff knockout round in the new format. It just devalues the whole group/league stage whilst adding in an extra 2 games to make more money. 

Rubbish. 

There will be definitely teams that will miss out on qualifying on the knockout stage if not failing the league completly. Rare thing, but it will happen. And let's not pretend that right now the top 2 of each group doesn't go on anyway, because 90% of the groups end up like that exactly. The Milan/Dortmund/Newcastle situation is the exception, not the rule (and it's not like Newcastle is an european glory in the first place lmao).