There needs to be an AI overhaul...

[ScotchWhisky]

...And I don't mean for the match engine.  I mean for the board and player personalities.  Let's focus on the board.  I leave my beloved football team for the greener pastures of Flekkerøy football.  A team struggling to stave off relegation in the Norwegian Second Division with a few matches to play.  I succeed and the next year I am promoted to the First Division.  I am then relegated in a First Division where only two of 16 teams, including mine, were semi-pro.  I come back for my third full season in the Second Division and am easily promoted again.  A cinderella mid-table finish, one spot shy of a playoff for promotion, was my fourth season.  Then a disappointing playoff victory to stave off relegation my fifth season.

The sixth season, my goal was to stave off relegation.  A good start that quickly turned poor.  Finally, the board starts talking to me.  "Improve or you're gone."  I think they were more upset I lost to a lower league rival in the second round of the Norwegian Cup.  The second time they talk to me, I tell them give me a month to improve.  My next four matches contain two very winnable fixtures.  Oh, but dummy me.  I didn't look at the dates.  After my second match, I go into a three week break!  So, I lose my first match as expected then draw the second.  Well shoot, the board is not happy.  I get fired three days before the third match.  I load the save before the second match.  I'm trying not to cheat, but the open jobs I wanted stopped taking apps.  So I replay the second match and this time I win!  That puts me into a tie for 14th out of 16th.  The board is so happy at the teams improvement, so I figure I will stick with it.  What's a small bit of cheating after all?  10 days or so later, the 16th place team faces the 2nd place team and somehow wins (how come I never have any luck?).  This drops me back into 15th.  The board is suddenly mad again.  "YOU DID NOT REALLY IMPROVE EVEN THOUGH WE INITIALLY BELIEVED YOU DID!"  This time in a pre-emptive strike, I had applied for Tromsø and left three days before I was fired while taking every single coaching staff member with me, except one (I did save to ensure I would actually be fired.  I was, again). 

Why does this bother me?  Because I want to tell them:

1)  We are one of five semi-pro teams in a league of 16. 

2)  Before me, you all had never been in the First Division.  I've had you there four of six years and the first I couldn't control.

3)  With me, you upgraded both the youth and main training facilities, and installed underground heating, while remaining cash positive.

4)  You slashed my budget last year to $8k p/w because you were too stupid to realize the upcoming televised matches would make your "unstable" financial situation "okay".  They weren't even cash flow negative.  I could afford the players I had, but couldn't add anyone new of value.

5)  You doubled my budget this year to $22k, with a record $150k transfer budget.  Yet despite spending only $10k p/w, wouldn't let me sign the excellent striker who wanted $2500 p/w.  For what it's worth, my budget with Tromsø is $53k per week with a $3.5 million transfer budget.  

And now I think I mistakenly saved over the autosave where I could go back and try again if I want.  Now, it's either stick with Tromsø, or quit the game.  I have vowed not to cheat, but it really pisses me off and makes me not want to play anymore.  I get the whole "get better results, or you're fired."  But I'd think at lower levels, loyalty is more important.  Especially for a team never expected to do much.

Hopefully when FM '25 comes out.  Rather than worry about women's leagues (did anyone, as in a sizable number of people, really want this?) and newgen appearance, how about SI overhauls the AI that's been virtually the same since I first started playing in 2009?  The match engine is vastly improved (no more alligator/roadrunner legs to ensure the proper player reaches the ball first), but all the backroom stuff is virtually the same and just as irritating as ever.  Like I can't tell the media the reason I have so many center backs is because one is going to play left back and one is going to play right back?  Instead I have to make some dumb comment about "depth."

[ScotchWhisky]

As a follow-up, I did have a save right before the 16th place team played their match.  They won again.  I reloaded again.  They lost.  Funny how my job status goes from stable to very insecure if they win.  If they lose, it's stable.  Gee, like the board couldn't see I won one, lost one, and probably should give me a couple more matches by realizing "give me one month" wasn't to be taken 100% literal.

[enigmatic]

There are plenty of ways that the AI leaves a lot to be desired, but team facing relegation fires manager who got them promoted and kept them there is, to put it mildly, not exactly a rare situation IRL.

[ScotchWhisky]

4 hours ago, enigmatic said:

There are plenty of ways that the AI leaves a lot to be desired, but team facing relegation fires manager who got them promoted and kept them there is, to put it mildly, not exactly a rare situation IRL.

It's not so much that I got fired.  It's more the idea that they gave me a month to improve my results, were ecstatic after my win, then fired me because another team won as well.  Granted, I am the dummy who made the promise without knowing the schedule (which would not happen IRL).  But I'm far more likely to ask for three or four matches rather than a month.  A month doesn't make sense when the first two matches occur within the two weeks then there is no fixture after that.  I think the most frustrating thing is how so many of these things haven't changed in the past decade+. 

I mean, read their Future of Football Manager post.  All they do is talk about Unity with enhanced graphics and animations.  Those are great... FM has never been about graphics, but hey, a graphics upgrade is great.  I remember when Tiger Woods (Rory McIlroy) golf went to the Unity engine.  It made a huge difference graphically.  Then they talk about the UI navigation.  Sure, if there are improvements that can be made there, that is great too.  Then they go on about adding Women's Football.  Great, that shouldn't be that hard to add for those that want it.  Just another set of leagues and players.  But how about the meat and potatoes of the game?  You know, the managerial aspect?

*addition*

Or the fact that the game doesn't distinguish the difference of getting a red card at 5' vs 85'.  I just got one at 55'.  I was already down 3-1, but the team was getting some chances (key plays).  I get to the tunnel after a 4-1 loss.  "What happened out there?"  Gee...  I don't know.  I had a player sent off with a red card?  "how come you didn't sub so and so?"  Ummm...  because I had a red card and it really didn't matter? 

Edited August 21, 2023 by ScotchWhisky

[Brasilia88]

We can write a book about how awful the AI outside game day and probably will be quite a read. Hence, why hopefully the new engine also brings some new alterations to the game as well. I mean, imagine the graphics look amazing, but you´re still clicking on ´demand more´ or ´throw water bottle´...? With all due respect, but if ChatGPT has taught us something it´s that the AI is more than capable of creating it´s own story. Surely, any interview with a manager or player usually sounds the same, but we´re playing a game, which allows us to send our assistant, because we couldn´t care less about the questions asked due to them being redundant and pointless.  

[ScotchWhisky]

On 21/08/2023 at 18:44, Brasilia88 said:

We can write a book about how awful the AI outside game day and probably will be quite a read. Hence, why hopefully the new engine also brings some new alterations to the game as well. I mean, imagine the graphics look amazing, but you´re still clicking on ´demand more´ or ´throw water bottle´...? With all due respect, but if ChatGPT has taught us something it´s that the AI is more than capable of creating it´s own story. Surely, any interview with a manager or player usually sounds the same, but we´re playing a game, which allows us to send our assistant, because we couldn´t care less about the questions asked due to them being redundant and pointless.  

I've attended every interview, but I don't know why.  I should just send my assistant.  Though the interviews can impact player morale.  And you are right.  If they use some AI bot, we probably will get better conversation.  But then, you get an AI like snapchats AI that will (or at least used to) argue with you that Boris Johnson is the present PM of the UK. 

And I also don't get the point of gestures.  Throw water bottle sounds pretty weak for a manager.  At least they have "kick chair" in team meetings.  I want "expletive filled rant."  More importantly, I want a board that can assess the realistic future situation!

Edited August 23, 2023 by ScotchWhisky

[Lindhoffen]

There really isn't much wrong with the AI. In most cases, as I've seen over the many years I've played FM, it's down to user error or incompetence. Let's face it, none of you are as good as you pretend to be. 

The AI, however, is. 

[forameuss]

16 hours ago, Lindhoffen said:

There really isn't much wrong with the AI. In most cases, as I've seen over the many years I've played FM, it's down to user error or incompetence. Let's face it, none of you are as good as you pretend to be. 

The AI, however, is. 

This is probably one of the wildest takes I've seen on this forum in a long time.  We're not talking about the little things where "it's your tactics" is a valid retort, we're talking about the many, many holes and complete lack of context that most of the game suffers from.  In fact I'd probably say that "the AI" (which is a pretty nebulous concept to start with and covers a lot of bases admittedly) is easily the part of the game most needing attention.

[ScotchWhisky]

On 23/08/2023 at 12:54, Lindhoffen said:

There really isn't much wrong with the AI. In most cases, as I've seen over the many years I've played FM, it's down to user error or incompetence. Let's face it, none of you are as good as you pretend to be. 

The AI, however, is. 

I just had a streak of 11 matches without a loss snapped.  Started the next match against a generally superior rival and quickly went down 1-0.  Team came back and by about the 65th minute, was up 2-1.  Dude gets a second yellow card.  I go very defensive and use defensive tactics hoping to at least salvage a draw.  Things are going well for about 10 minutes then I get a straight up red card.  Now it's 11-9 and still up 2-1.  I pull my forwards (I am not sure this is wise) and sure enough, I wind up losing 3-2 with a goal in the 91st minute.  I get into the tunnel and first thing the reporter asks is "what happened?" Once again, no option to say "I was leading then got two red cards."  Instead I have to say something about preparation.  Another similar question before they finally addressed one of two red cards.  Now, you may find this to be something about a lame interview.  But, if the interviewers think this, then player morale is probably factored in the same way.  And since morale is the most important thing in this game it seems, that IS important.  I just held a team meeting and said don't worry about the last result.      

 

On 24/08/2023 at 05:17, forameuss said:

This is probably one of the wildest takes I've seen on this forum in a long time.  We're not talking about the little things where "it's your tactics" is a valid retort, we're talking about the many, many holes and complete lack of context that most of the game suffers from.  In fact I'd probably say that "the AI" (which is a pretty nebulous concept to start with and covers a lot of bases admittedly) is easily the part of the game most needing attention.

I'll give an example.  The season is over and a player has a month left in his contract.  No new contract has been offered.  He then threatens to leave the team if his demands are not meant.  So, I have the option to try and sell the player...  ok, I am going to "sell" a player with a month left, sure.  Or, he/I can threaten to run down his contract.  Hey, you moron!  You have one left then you are free of all obligations.  Take your $500 per week and enjoy the time off!

[SPE3D]

On 23/08/2023 at 18:54, Lindhoffen said:

There really isn't much wrong with the AI. In most cases, as I've seen over the many years I've played FM, it's down to user error or incompetence. Let's face it, none of you are as good as you pretend to be. 

The AI, however, is. 

I don't know about you but AI squad building is so dire and has been for years.

[K94]

Il 23/8/2023 in 19:54 , Lindhoffen ha scritto:

There really isn't much wrong with the AI. In most cases, as I've seen over the many years I've played FM, it's down to user error or incompetence. Let's face it, none of you are as good as you pretend to be. 

The AI, however, is. 

Honestly I find praising the AI pretty wild as, in the vast majority of cases, it's exactly any interaction with said AI that completely breaks how immersive the simulation feels.

Whether it's unbelievably stupid AI squad building, player/squad/board talks or press conferences, the AI is by far what should be top of the list for a revamp.