Help me turn my 4231 into a possession tactic

[Rooney1010]

So this tactic is great for me defensively solid and gets goals however for my personal preference I really want to dominate and maintain possession more without losing my attacking bite. 
 

I have played with both wingbacks on support, I’ve tried high pressing, counter pressing but nothing seems to help me maintain possession. 
 

I’ve come up against team who’s solely played in their own half and we still cannot get the ball. 
 

I chose fullbacks after reading some articles and decided to stick with them because they do not bomb forward early in possession so they are a extra body to find however against any team I play Im still constantly in the 40% marks for possession. 
 

I have also attempted to have both my DM’s on DM (s) but as you can tell I’m running out of ideas I know if it ain’t broke don’t fix it but I want possession  

[dazza11]

To me it looks like your possession problems are not with the ball but without it. Your possession stats will suffer because without the ball you are incredibly passive and probably struggle to win it back.   You play a midblock, no counter press, no closing down instructions. So it’s incredibly easy for the opponent to maintain possession, especially in their own half. 
With Man utd a midblock can work well as you have so much pace up front, but I’d add counter & counter press to utilise them better. You could also make one of your DM’s a bwm to encourage winning the ball back. 

[Johnny Ace]

Came in to say basically what @dazza11has already said

Your setup looks like it'll keep the ball well but when the other team have the ball, you're kind of letting them have it. With the mid block and and non urgent pressing triggers, they'll wrack up possession in their own third 

[bosque]

7 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Came in to say basically what @dazza11has already said

Your setup looks like it'll keep the ball well but when the other team have the ball, you're kind of letting them have it. With the mid block and and non urgent pressing triggers, they'll wrack up possession in their own third 

But isn't that what the mid block does? Letting opposition have the ball in their own third and start pressing when their enter the middle third?

[Johnny Ace]

Just now, bosque said:

But isn't that what the mid block does? Letting opposition have the ball in their own third and start pressing when their enter the middle third?

Yeah, that's what I'm saying, he's allowing the opposition to keep the ball, if they're in no hurry to go forward they won't trigger the press. The longer they have the ball, the more possession they will have. To win the possession game it can help to push your lines up and put more more urgency into the pressing triggers   

[Rooney1010]

14 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

Yeah, that's what I'm saying, he's allowing the opposition to keep the ball, if they're in no hurry to go forward they won't trigger the press. The longer they have the ball, the more possession they will have. To win the possession game it can help to push your lines up and put more more urgency into the pressing triggers   

Sometimes the simplest solutions are the best ones. 
 

But I still have trouble with teams who play very defensive formation like any with a 3atb or 3atb with 2 dms even with me pressing like crazy upping lines pressing heavy I can have 30%. 
 

what’s you guy’s solutions for formations such as that 

[Johnny Ace]

39 minutes ago, Rooney1010 said:

what’s you guy’s solutions for formations such as that 

Bain of my life the back 3/5 and 2 DMs. 

Are you talking about purely possession still? 

 

[Rooney1010]

15 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Bain of my life the back 3/5 and 2 DMs. 

Are you talking about purely possession still? 

 

Tell me about it. 

Yeah just purely from a possession stand point of view 

[Jack Sarahs]

I would also ask in what way do you want to dominate possession?

If it's the raw possession stat, this is calculated by passes completed. Ball share is how much time you spend on the ball versus the opposition, and then pitch/field tilt is another metric that can be used to analyse how domiant you are being in matches.

[dazza11]

That 3atb with 2 dm’s is probably the toughest to breakdown. 
I find I have to utilise the space out wide, so high wingers pushed up forcing their wb/ outer cb’s to be pressured, focus play down wings, slow down the tempo a notch to move their players around and be more aggressive with your own full backs as they will have more space with the opponent effectively having 7 defenders. Midblock can work well to draw their back 5 out. 
Or even switching to say a 424 formation sometimes helps to pressure their back line 

[Rooney1010]

9 minutes ago, Jack Sarahs said:

I would also ask in what way do you want to dominate possession?

If it's the raw possession stat, this is calculated by passes completed. Ball share is how much time you spend on the ball versus the opposition, and then pitch/field tilt is another metric that can be used to analyse how domiant you are being in matches.

I would probably say raw possession stat because the issue has never been creating chances but the fact that with my quality vs there’s how they can maintain high levels of possession is baffling. 
 

im at a crossroads at where yes I do want to dominated possession but I also don’t want to mess up a good chance by going to slow hence why I keep my tempo the same. 

[Rooney1010]

8 minutes ago, dazza11 said:

That 3atb with 2 dm’s is probably the toughest to breakdown. 
I find I have to utilise the space out wide, so high wingers pushed up forcing their wb/ outer cb’s to be pressured, focus play down wings, slow down the tempo a notch to move their players around and be more aggressive with your own full backs as they will have more space with the opponent effectively having 7 defenders. Midblock can work well to draw their back 5 out. 
Or even switching to say a 424 formation sometimes helps to pressure their back line 

In this particular case it’s not so much the breaking down but possession I’m after I may try at 424 see if I’m able to stop them from clearly playing it in there half then hoofing it back to me. 

[gunnerfan]

I play a 4-2-3-1 that usually dominates possession. I use a customized tiki-taka style: very short passing, low tempo, fairly narrow, play out of the back, working the ball into the box. I like using a high block, but that varies based on the side I’m facing.

I don’t like the two DMs at the double pivot. I use one playmaker—either a vol or a regista—paired with a BWM (which I sometimes make an anchor when I need to go more defensive). You also may want to play your AMC as an AP.

[Karlo]

37 minutes ago, gunnerfan said:

I use one playmaker—either a vol or a regista

Don't you mean RPM? The VOL is not a playmaker. It's basically a BBM from the DM strata.

[Rooney1010]

6 hours ago, gunnerfan said:

I play a 4-2-3-1 that usually dominates possession. I use a customized tiki-taka style: very short passing, low tempo, fairly narrow, play out of the back, working the ball into the box. I like using a high block, but that varies based on the side I’m facing.

I don’t like the two DMs at the double pivot. I use one playmaker—either a vol or a regista—paired with a BWM (which I sometimes make an anchor when I need to go more defensive). You also may want to play your AMC as an AP.

Why don’t you like the double DM pivot? Do you not find the VOL get in the way in a 4231 especially if you have to wingers coming inside? 

[gunnerfan]

1 hour ago, Rooney1010 said:

Why don’t you like the double DM pivot? Do you not find the VOL get in the way in a 4231 especially if you have to wingers coming inside? 

I use an IW/A on the left and an IF/S on the right. A good Vol has strong attributes in passing, finishing, and technique. I don't find him getting in the way at all, and I've used this system for seven seasons, and for two different teams. I would think two DMs would be too static and not create enough on the attack. To maintain meaningful possession, you need to do more than just play keepaway from the opponent. I suggest you check out Cleon's "Art of Possession" thread.

One other suggestion, an idea I borrowed from Rashidi: using BPDs in both central defender spots. It creates a lot of options in attack.

[Rooney1010]

30 minutes ago, gunnerfan said:

I use an IW/A on the left and an IF/S on the right. A good Vol has strong attributes in passing, finishing, and technique. I don't find him getting in the way at all, and I've used this system for seven seasons, and for two different teams. I would think two DMs would be too static and not create enough on the attack. To maintain meaningful possession, you need to do more than just play keepaway from the opponent. I suggest you check out Cleon's "Art of Possession" thread.

One other suggestion, an idea I borrowed from Rashidi: using BPDs in both central defender spots. It creates a lot of options in attack.

 Could you link me to the rashidi one I’ve always been under the assumption that two BPD is like suicide unless you’re the much better team due to the risk they take in possession 

[gunnerfan]

2 hours ago, Rooney1010 said:

 Could you link me to the rashidi one I’ve always been under the assumption that two BPD is like suicide unless you’re the much better team due to the risk they take in possession 

It's in his FM23 Book of Tactics (available on Dropbox) in the section on Possession. He uses what he calls a Bishop 4-3-3, but I find it works equally well with the 4-2-3-1. I have copied-and-pasted the paragraph on BPDs, but you should check out the whole chapter:

Ball Playing Defenders
 I want defenders comfortable with bringing the ball out, I want to progress the 
ball through the tiers so one BPD will be given the instruction to dribble more. 
Both defenders are expected to get to the ball ahead of threats when balls are 
played through the line. So both of them will have tight marking on. The other 
BPD does not have dribble more assigned.  First Touch, anticipation, 
concentration and positioning are the key attributes here. Acceleration and 
raw physicality are good attributes that will make sure our defence will be hard 
to beat.