Popular Post Fox-7- Posted May 31, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted May 31, 2023 (edited) Hi guys, this Is a quite long post...of you don't want to be annoyed by theory, just bypass point 1 & 2 and start directly from point 3 1. INTRODUCTION Over the past 15 years, Positional play (PP or JdP) has definitely conquered football. Although it has distant roots, from Guardiola onwards everyone talks about it, everyone studies it more and more in detail and everyone practices it (or thinks they do). But like all things, the more you know it, the more you are exposed to it and the more you get used to it, making the debate (and in the case of football, the matches) saturated, with few new starting points for discussion. Lately, therefore, the attention of the football world has been moving towards the theme of "Functional play" (FP, also defined by the term "Relativism") as opposed to PP. In reality, the two philosophies are not antithetical, as FP was not born as a countermeasure to PP but also has its own almost parallel development in chronological terms, well rooted in the South American football culture of the last century (just think of the Brazilian national teams which has dominated the football scene since the '50s with iconic teams such as "the five No. 10" team in 1970 or that of 1982, or Menotti's Argentina in '78 with "la Nuestra"). By Functional play we therefore mean a football based mainly on the relationships that naturally intertwine between the players (both between teammates and with the opponents) on the playing field when the team is in possession of the ball, where the protagonist is absolute is the ball and not the space. Or rather, it is the technical skills and intuitions of the players that govern and send the ball towards the opponent's goal in the spaces that are continuously created instant by instant with the movements of the players, and therefore decree the development of the actions. There is therefore a tendency to play with and within the chaos of a football match rather than wanting to govern and eliminate it as happens in PP. In fact, one of the main aspects of FP is the almost total absence of pre-established patterns, given that with the change of even just one player, the relationships on the pitch inevitably change and therefore consequently also the development of the game. However, this style of play cannot be trivialized by the mere concept that "the players are free to do what they want", to be effective it must be practiced in training to increase the level of knowledge among individual players (and therefore develop the best their emotional connections) and establishing a collective way of thinking, making everyone speak the same language to move towards the common goal. A different language from that of the others, more instinctive, but not for this reason easier to learn. The challenge of the coach who pursues FP is therefore twofold: one is to "be there" to create the right environment to organize the strong collective starting from respecting the freedom of interpretation and therefore of the individual's response to what happens on the pitch (and of the various players as they "enter" the action, multiplying this freedom and vastness of choices), and at the same time that of "hiding" when the game has to be created, giving basic references but again making players responsible to understand and synchronize with each other on the pitch without too many structured impositions. From these assumptions the "Approximation Play" ("Jogo de Apoio" in Portuguese, which later took on the term Functional play) was born, a way of playing where the players are asked to relate to each other by approaching as much as possible and in high numbers to the ball carrier, instead of making the most of its amplitude and symmetry to statically occupy the best and most dangerous spaces in which to wait for the ball (with the result therefore of having better positioned but distant players and therefore with " relationships" more difficult to establish). Adrian Cervera Garcia, football coach, in a writing by him identifies three types of spaces in which the JdA develops: -Intervention space: the space between whoever has the ball and his immediate vicinity, where he can be subjected to pressure from one or more opponents who try to win the ball and close the passing lanes -Mutual aid space: the space between the ball carrier and the closest teammates who can find the right place to get served -Cooperation space: the largest space where some distant companions can still be found as a passage option. Whoever has the ball therefore enters into a relationship with his teammates and with the opponents within these spaces that continuously change in terms of extension and location on the field, trying to play in those left free by the opponents who try to take the ball away (therefore space is seen as dynamic, and not static as instead in the JdP. A space where to arrive and not where to be). The goal is to move up the field trying to play in these small spaces behind the pressing player, looking for the constant search for numerical superiority in the immediate vicinity of the ball carrier which gives you the possibility of maintaining possession with short and rapid exchanges and movements continue of the players. The player is therefore no longer closely linked to a position on the field that tends to always move in the same way in the same areas and to do the same things, but from time to time depending on the situation he assumes a different function in relation to the context of the action . However, from the theory of philosophy it is impossible to get to the practice of a pure Functional play without using a minimum of pre-established patterns and the use of positions (just as it is impossible to make a pure Positional play effective without granting a minimum of freedom to the players), but it is interesting how the same concepts in the two approaches have completely different meanings. Indeed, there is also in the JdA a basic organization studied and practiced in training, for example in terms of positions, but it is far from the obsession with total control over every aspect of the game typical of the JdP. In the game of approximation, the example of the "escadinhas" (ladder) is striking, a widely used game pattern in which two or more players line up on the same diagonal line respect to the ball carrier, who makes a pass towards the closest player to him. The latter goes towards the ball and then performs a "corta-luz" (dummy) letting it slide towards the second player behind him and running around into the space beyond the opponent, evading the pressure and placing the final receiver in an area of the field free from opponents. So this is a use of positions studied in the Functional game, but in the Positional game instead you should never see two or more players on the same line, because this would mean having fewer passing lines available the ball carrier. As mentioned, the debate between these two philosophies is more open than ever, and also takes on a wider meaning from a cultural point of view as a profound difference between South America and Europe, also going beyond the football context. I close the discussion by borrowing two quotes from two great authors of the 20th century. Quote “Like tango, football flourished in the favelas. On the courts of Montevideo and Buenos Aires, a style was born. A unique way of playing football was opening the way, while a unique way of dancing was asserting itself in the milonguero courtyards. The dancers drew filigrees, making flourishes on a single brick, and the soccer players invented their language in the space where the ball was not kicked, but held and possessed, as if the feet were hands gripping the leather. And in the feet of the first virtuous natives, touch was born: the ball plays as if it were a guitar, a source of music.” Eduardo Galeano Quote "There are two types of football: prose and poetry. Europea team are prose, tough, premeditatet, systematic, collective. Latin American ones are poetry, ductile, spontaneous, individual, erotic." Pier Paolo Pasolini 2. THE COACH Functional play is also arriving in Europe, or rather some coaches are starting to instill some typical concepts of this football philosophy in their tactical contexts, thus contaminating the Positional play. Examples have been made for Schmidt at Benfica, Ancelotti at Real Madrid, Spalletti at Napoli. Even Juanma Lillo (yes, I wrote Juanma Lillo, really him!) one of the "fathers" of PP in his current spell at Al-Sadd is adopting principles much closer to the FP But for once let's keep our eyes on South America, where in addition to Scaloni's Argentine national team there is another coach who is causing a lot of talk about himself Within this debate, recently, the name of Fernando Diniz, current coach of Fluminense, is making its appearance (again) on the international football scene. Former player with a career with many teams in Brazil at the turn of the millennium (including Palmeiras, Corinthians, Fluminense, Flamengo, Cruzeiro, Santos), he retired in 2008, and put himself in the role of coach, starting with small teams. After his exploit at the helm of Audax in 2016, where he reached the final of the Campeonato Paulista (lost on penalties to Santos) with a team on paper not equipped for this type of goal, his experiences with Athletico Paranense, Fluminense, Sao Paulo , Santos and Vasco da Gama had gone almost unnoticed by the general public outside of Brazil despite the fact that he were recognized for making their teams play good football, mainly due to the lack of results and the frequent team changes even with some sackings suffered. His second assignment at Fluminense which started in April 2022, however, is going much better in terms of results (last April he won the State Championship beating Flamengo) and quality of play, and for a few months now the so-called "Dinizism" is going viral on many specialized sites and posts on social networks that talk about football. But what is meant by "Dinizism"? Obviously the reference is to the style of play that his teams express on the field, which has intrigued many insiders and enthusiasts. Diniz himself, in an interview, answered a question by giving a brief description of his philosophy which refers to the Approximation play, and how it is erroneously associated with "Guardiolism" due to the search for ball possession, even if it Diniz himself says he is a great admirer of Guardiola. Quote "Because we both like to have possession, people associate my style with Guardiola's. But that's where it stops. The way he likes to have possession is the opposite of mine. His style is positional, mine is almost anti-positional. Watching Guardiola's games, it takes two minutes to understand that the players obey their given space. There are lines on the field, whoever is on this side stays on this side, whoever is on that side stays on that side. The players move within their spaces, and the ball comes into their spaces. We are anti-positional. Players are allowed to change positions, the pitch is more open. At certain times all the players move together in the same parts of the field, and with that section of the field the players also swap positions. These are the key differences, (in Guardiola's style) the players are "imprisoned" in their sections of the pitch, our players has more freedom, which has a lot to do with our culture here (in Brazil)." His style of play has therefore taken the easy name of "Dinizism" despite him, given that labeling something that instead professes freedom of expression and execution is somewhat paradoxical. After his career as a footballer, he also completed studies in Psychology, and has repeatedly brought to light the very dear theme of the mental well-being of the footballer, first as a person and then as an athlete. In fact, by his own admission he declared that he had struggled to manage the constant pressure to seek maximum performance during his career as a footballer, and therefore in his way of working he focuses a lot on the relationship with people, because only if the individual is in a perfect mental state is truly free to express itself and can therefore give its best even on the football pitch. In fact, here are various scattered statements by Diniz regarding this: Quote "The most important thing is to establish good relationships with the players: they are what determine the result and the development of the matches. I try to establish this as quickly as possible. My intention is to improve the players. The player is an extremely intelligent being and psychic. Culture and school may be lacking, but intelligence is not lacking" Quote “Today everything is reduced to tactics, to the superficiality of the game. It's a line of four, low block, mid block… People learn half a dozen specific terms, which change as football posts come out, and we lose the heart of football. Football, for me, has a lot to do with life. So when people only look at the tactical part, it's difficult. Because in general they only talk about the tactical part and the final result, and that's not what football is about. The human relations that are established in a soccer team are far ahead of the tactical part. People are the heart of football, not the tactics. The game is much more than the tactical part. What determines most of the time, as in any human activity, is the relational question, helping each other, having a lot of willingness, a lot of solidarity. All this corrects tactical errors. There is no tactical solution for the lack of willingness." Quote "My team plays open football, which provides advice and leaves room for you (the player) to create things, to evolve. So over time, if you do things right, you start to recognize what kind of players you have and how you can organize the game to have an advantage over the opponent, like attacking a lot without being vulnerable. It's something I'm trying to improve over time." Quote "Take chances even if you lose the ball, be brave, take risks. Learn to live with risk, don't fear it, it prepares you for big moments" 3. THE PHILOSOPHY TRANSPORTED ONTO THE FOOTBALL PITCH But let's move from theory to practice, let's see how Diniz make his Fluminense play. The cornerstones of Diniz's game are essentially 3: 1. Build-up play from the bottom to attract opponents and free up space behind them to attack 2. Consolidated possession and progression towards the opponent's goal through the approach of many players in the ball area (search for numerical superiority) with short and rapid passes and continuous movement of the players 3. Intention to recover the ball immediately in case of loss of possession BUILD-UP PLAY The "Jogo de apoio" can be seen immediately from this stage of the game. When the action starts from the goalkeeper, the outfield players form a 4+2 structure, with the double pivot positioned just outside the box ready to support the side the ball is going towards, and with the goalkeeper acting as a further possession option in the circulation of the ball to increase numerical superiority, luring and evading the first line of opposing pressure. This also happens with the approximation of the more advanced players, who slowly move back towards the ball while it circulates in the defensive third, to be found behind the defenders and be able to advance on the field in full control of the ball with fewer opponents to face. PROGRESSION THROUGH THE FIELD Once out of the defensive third, the team tries to bring the ball to the most advanced areas of the field through a dense network of short but rapid passes, which as mentioned is made possible by the fact that most of the players move close to the ball by moving in small spaces between opposing players offering numerous solutions to maintain ball possession. In fact, it is not uncommon to see 6/7 or even more players close to the flank where the ball is. Continuous unmarking and rotations of position, with a high level of coordination of thought between the players and complexity of reading for the opponent due to their frequency and unpredictability, further favor the success of this intent. The progression is initially slow, many passes take place in the central third of the field in order to attract the opponents and then play through their pressing. According to Soccerment data, in Brasileirao 2022 Fluminense excelled for total number of passes (20290, almost 700 more than the second team in this ranking), for accuracy of passes (87%) and for ball possession (61%). In this phase of the game there is probably the maximum expression of this football philosophy: small rondos, one-twos, wall passes, ladders, dummies, back-heel passes and yo-yo passes are some of the main plays with which the players move the ball and progress towards the goal, unleashing the maximum imagination in the service of the technique. However, dribbling remains an option, left to the player's choice, but it is not systematically sought after with 1vs1 isolations. In fact, if space allows it, ball conductions are often exploited to gain meters and get the opponent out of his defensive position, forcing him to free up space behind him. (In fact in 2022 league Fluminense also was first for successful dribbles in league, 445) As we can see from this map, the exchange of passes takes place almost uniformly along the entire field between the two areas with a natural increase in the opponent's half given the control exercised over the match. And from this other we can see how the greatest outburst is on the flanks, in order to move the opponent's defensive block and free up tons of space on the opposite side, which is exploited with a deep run and a switch of play Even once they have arrived near the opponent's goal, there's a tendency to control and wait for the right opportunity (60.14% of Field Tilt, 3rd of Brasileirao 2022). However, when they manage to overcome the front lines of pressure and open up space to attack the opponent's goal, they don't linger in the action, and with ball carries they get close to the opponent's area in control to organize the attack on goal. With many players arriving near the ball carrier in dangerous areas, decoy runs are practiced in an offside position to distract the opponents and deep insertions are frequently sought on the blind sides of the opposing defenders to be served with through balls, sending a teammate directly on goal or putting him in condition to play a cutback pass for an easy gol PRESSING With so many players close to the ball when in possession, the most natural thing to do in the event of losing the ball is an immediate re-attack on the opponent, who given the situation often finds himself outnumbered. Often finding themselves close to the flanks to develop the game, in case of loss of the ball the lateral foul line is exploited as an extra-defender and they compress the opponent towards it, closing the passing lines towards the inside of the field. (53.55% of Gegenpressing Intensity, 3rd in Brasileirao 2022) When the opponent restarts with a goal kick, the intent is to press immediately, making it difficult to play out of the defense. Then an approach based on a high block with many players in the opposing half is adopted, and a pressing that aims to mirror the disposition of the opponents by going man vs man. (2nd in Brasileirao 2022 with PPDA of 9.31) If the opponent manages to resist the first pressing and advance on the field, the team regroups with a medium block with two lines of 4 and Ganso and Cano who pair up trying to shield the game towards the center On the other hand, the generally aggressive and asymmetrical tactical approach can sometimes be unstable from a defensive point of view (in Brasileirao 2022 they only had the 8th defense with 41 goals conceded in 38 games) FORMATION Although Diniz does not have a strict choice of line-up, having also occasionally fielded players in 4-3-3, 4-3-1-2 and 4-2-2-2, by far the most used formation is the 4-2-3-1. But with the fluidity of the style of play, applying the principles described above and thanks to the freedom of movement granted to the players, the end result is a compact and often not very recognizable structure to the eye, as shown for example by some maps on average positions and passing networks from different games. In this system, the player who is fundamental in organizing the game with the ball is undoubtedly Paulo Henrique Ganso. With his excellent technique and brilliant vision he is able to direct the flow of the game and involve his teammates masterfully, applying all the techniques to control the game. One-twos, close exchanges, pauses, back-heel passes, illuminating through balls... anything can start from his feet suddenly and destabilize the opponent (in Brasileirao 2022 1st for through balls, 4th for total passes and 5 ° for Expected Threat). Think of Riquelme, often called "the last No. 10", always in the heart of the game and technically and not physically dominant, in slow but perpetual motion in search of feeling with the ball. The other prominent player is Andrè Trinidade, on paper positioned on the center-right in the double pivot but who literally acts across all the pitch, offering constant support to the defenders for building from below, right and left in the progression along the flanks and even finishing, ball carrier or incursor without the ball in the area in the final third (1st for total passes and 3rd for successful dribbling in Brasileirao '22). Arias and Cano were also exalted by Diniz's game, the first is a Colombian winger who has collected 17 assists in 2022 and 10 to date (4th for chances created and for successful dribbling in the last championship), the second is a Argentine striker who has become a goal machine like never before in his career (44 in 2022 and already 24 this season, in all competitions). 4. CARRYING EVERYTHING ON FM For the starting formation, as mentioned, I stick to the 4-2-3-1 used the most. Since FM is a video game, obviously a faithful reproduction of such a fluid and not very repeatable system in reality is almost impossible, given that you have to select instructions that tend to emphasize some behaviors to the detriment of others, and so some compromises are necessary. The fixture's arrangement in the first matches of the Carioca Championship, with matches against much lower level teams, came in handy allowing me to experiment with the instructions without worrying about the outcome of the match. So, after a few games I was able to get a fairly solid tactical base that seems to me to best reflect Dinizism. According to the in-game description, the most faithful mentality would be the Attacking one, since as we have seen in his statements Diniz encourages players to take risks. Furthermore, the concept of freedom of expression and movement of the players is underlined, but there is still an inherent point in which control is privileged if the spaces are closed. But on this mentality I saw too many direct passes and a lack of control over the game, so I went down a notch and went with Positive In possession: Fairly narrow width of play: Keeps players close together, which is what we want. But according to the setup description, this concentrates play in the central area of the pitch, so to mitigate this fact I have added the instruction to focus play on both flanks. Much shorter passes, slightly higher tempo, dribble less (with the Positive mindset there will still be many), play out of defense, work the ball in the box, and above all be more expressive are self-explanatory and integrate well into the philosophy described so far In Transition: Counter-press as a cornerstone, hold shape to prioritize control when we get the ball. GK will slow down the game to allow teammates to better position themselves for the build-up play, with short distribution towards the CBs Out of possession: If counterpress fails we will rearrange ourselves in a Medium Block with Much Higher defensive line in order to compresse the space but without being too passive, so the pressing trigger is set on Much More Often with the aim to Trap Outside the opponents, and the defensive line has been instructed to Step Up More. From opponents goal kicks we try to Prevent GK distribution (integrated with man-marking instructions in PIs) Let's see the roles chosen SKd: Simple, I want a controlled distribution without forcing things too much FB-s: More suited for build-up play, doesn't bomb forward immediately but evaluates well when to do it if the opportunity arises, with the instruction go further forward and cross from the byline CBs-d: From them I simply want defense and short passes aimed at maintaining possession CWB-s: On his side, I want him to be able to enter the field from time to time thanks to his freedom of movement (we have Marcelo's qualities at our service, let's use them) RPM-s: The first metronome of the team, he can decide whether to keep possession or risk more advanced passes between the lines, without neglecting his duties in the defensive phase. CM-s: Placed on the CML spot to leave more room for RPM to also go to the left side to play the ball, with the instruction to press less often sits a little deeper in the non-possession phase pairing with RPM as a double pivot T-a: He has to do a bit of everything, free to create overload on the centre-right with RPM, FB and AP, to face the defense with the ball at his feet or to run behind the defense without the ball. APs: I want him to manage possession and organize the offensive maneuver in the last third of the pitch, I have given him freedom of movement with the roam from position instruction IWs: Among the players he is the one who has a little more license to dribble to upset the opposing defenses a bit. I told him to stay wider in order to give space for CWB to tuck inside. AFa: His main job is just to keep the opposing defenders engaged and to score, but sometimes he'll still come and play with his teammates. A bit tricky and maybe not so realistic, but i told AML/R to switch positions to make them play on both flanks Now let's see some in-game situations from the first match with this "final" version of the tactic, against Vasco da Gama: In this screen we see how there is a 4+2 setup for build-up play, with Ganso (#10) positioning himself behind the first line of pressure to provide a first outlet to break the pressure Here, for example, you can see ball possession on the right flank with the concentration of 6 players near the ball to keep possession vs 4 opponents Here instead we are in the non-possession phase, you can see the 4-4-2 defensive shape with Ganso e Cano pairing up covering the passing lines towards the midfielders and Keno end Arias guarding the fullbacks Match Stats and Ratings We controlled the game most of the time Here is the passing map at the end of the game, similar to those we have seen before with many players in the same zones This is my interpretation of the Functional Play as proposed by Diniz at Fluminense, but consider the thread as if it were yours in the sense that you can, indeed you must, give me advice, different points of view and even criticize things that you think are really wrong, to improve things. First, because I'm not an FM guru at all, in fact, I'm an absolutely average player with still a lot to learn despite 15+ years of FM. And then because, as Diniz says, things evolve through dialogue and knowledge, and this tactic can certainly evolve into something better than its first version with everyone's contribution. As an Italian, I apologize for some errors in the translation or if some words or phrases may sound a little strange All Credits & References (a lot of stuff!) in spoiler: Spoiler https://breakingthelines.com/player-analysis/andre-trinidade-the-modern-day-defensive-midfielder/ https://footure.com.br/guia-tatico-do-brasileirao-2023-fluminense-de-fernando-diniz/ https://ge.globo.com/blogs/painel-tatico/post/2023/05/12/veja-alguns-conceitos-taticos-que-explicam-o-dinizismo-no-fluminense.ghtml https://jogada10.com.br/o-dinizismo-e-realidade-e-faz-a-torcida-do-flu-sonhar/ https://jornalfloripa.com.br/geral/ler/51127 https://lagabbiadiorrico.com/2023/03/24/positional-and-functional-play-interview-with-caio-miguel-pontes/ https://lagabbiadiorrico.com/2023/04/10/fernando-diniz-ha-ribaltato-il-flamengo/ https://lagabbiadiorrico.substack.com/p/vecchi-e-nuovi-maestri https://ludopedio.org.br/arquibancada/os-altos-e-baixos-do-dinizismo-no-santos/ https://medium.com/@jonmackenzie/taking-a-position-on-relation-in-football-bd6e0bee989a https://medium.com/@jonmackenzie/taking-a-position-on-relation-in-football-bd6e0bee989a https://medium.com/@Jozsef_Bozsik/a-excepcionalidade-do-futebol-brasileiro-43bca650138 https://medium.com/@Jozsef_Bozsik/entre-a-bola-e-o-homem-há-o-espaço-e-o-tempo-ataque-posicional-jogo-de-posição-e-ataque-89fd98088355 https://medium.com/@Jozsef_Bozsik/entre-a-bola-e-o-homem-há-o-espaço-e-o-tempo-ataque-posicional-jogo-de-posição-e-ataque-funcional-6c70bc622931 https://medium.com/@Jozsef_Bozsik/sobre-o-jogo-de-aproximação-quando-joão-saldanha-e-adrián-cervera-se-encontram-eabe6854f1d2 https://medium.com/@stirlingj1982/fernando-diniz-vs-the-man-machine-134bde05d0d0 https://medium.com/@stirlingj1982/what-is-relationism-c98d6233d9c2 https://medium.com/@toni_Gagliardi/is-the-era-of-the-position-game-coming-to-an-end-b5a341011017 https://premierleaguebrasil.com.br/tragam-pra-europa-logo-analistas-estrangeiros-vao-a-loucura-com-fernando-diniz/ https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1621934494876835845.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1651417914392690688.html https://totalfootballanalysis.com/article/tactical-analysis-the-concept-of-space-in-functional-play-tactical-analysis-tactics https://totalfootballanalysis.com/head-coach-analysis/fernando-diniz-at-fluminense-2022-tactical-analysis-tactics https://totalfootballanalysis.com/player-analysis/andre-trindade-at-fluminense-2022-scout-report-tactical-analysis-tactics?fbclid=IwAR2kmFCYMOxDrAMh6b5Kg0Bg9B4Qdt9BKN7WHuLZq8VUPF3kt9685atPIqY https://twitter.com/BeGriffis/status/1645212290675867649 https://twitter.com/BeGriffis/status/1634959475844218884 https://twitter.com/BeGriffis/status/1600125021757661186 https://twitter.com/BeGriffis/status/1640378655787417600 https://twitter.com/DataFutebol https://twitter.com/IJaSport/status/1653803204499451920 https://twitter.com/maurisaldana/status/1590568626616401922 https://twitter.com/maurisaldana/status/1651420671468077056 https://twitter.com/maurisaldana/status/1653648878007099392 https://twitter.com/maurisaldana/status/1657639712893313024 https://twitter.com/olaranjaoficial https://twitter.com/osegundovolante/status/1545923180354740225?cxt=HHwWgoCx8aO8nPQqAAAA https://twitter.com/Scout_FFC https://twitter.com/stirling_j/status/1614710939093463041 https://twitter.com/stirling_j/status/1650126808950398978 https://twitter.com/stirling_j/status/1658750541613203456 https://twitter.com/the_elastico/status/1616112018032922626 https://twitter.com/tikitaka_br/status/1650641510541541378 https://www.antenadosnofutebol.com.br/times/vida-longa-ao-dinizismo-colunista-do-uol-celebra-vitoria-do-fluminense-com-gol-de-nino-e-compara-estilo-de-jogo-do-tricolor-com-psicodelia-55357-20230420-ANF-55357.html https://www.atribuna.com.br/opiniao/vladir-lemos/mundo-da-bola-o-dinizismo-em-alta https://www.espn.co.uk/football/sao-paulo/story/4224369/sao-paulos-fernando-diniz-is-brazils-next-great-coaching-hope https://www.futebolnaveia.com.br/dinizismo-estilo-de-vida/ https://www.itsjustasport.com/articles/2023/5/8/relationism-vs-positionism https://www.ofutebolero.com.br/seriea/O-Dinizismo-mas-dito-nas-palavras-do-proprio-Fernando-Diniz-20220821-0008.html https://www.rivistaundici.com/2023/04/27/fluminense-fernando-diniz/ https://www.saudacoestricolores.com/analise-tatica-um-resumo-do-dinizismo-no-brasileirao-2022/ https://www.sportellate.it/2023/05/03/fluminense-fernando-diniz-analisi-brasile/ https://www.tiempoar.com.ar/deportes/diniz-fluminense-brasil/ https://www.tupi.fm/esportes/jornal-ole-elogia-dinizismo-e-chama-atencao-do-river-plate/ https://www.youcoach.it/articolo/dal-gioco-posizionale-al-gioco-funzionale-la-scuola-sudamericana?Newsletter_ITA https://youtu.be/jf11lMB_bRo https://youtu.be/LoxtcO9WH6o https://youtu.be/Sb-SJ51IpqI Edited June 2, 2023 by Fox-7- 32 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coach vahid Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 Just brillant. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutumba Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 Wow, incredible OP! I hate to say it tho, but there is already an (also excellent) post about the same manager and system I suggest merging the two and let the discussion flow. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irn Rvd Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 Absolute tremendous post. Well done! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMartello Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 Great post! Which PI´s do you use? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox-7- Posted June 2, 2023 Author Share Posted June 2, 2023 (edited) Il 31/5/2023 in 17:29 , coach vahid ha scritto: Just brillant. Il 31/5/2023 in 18:57 , Irn Rvd ha scritto: Absolute tremendous post. Well done! Thank you guys! Il 31/5/2023 in 18:36 , Mutumba ha scritto: Wow, incredible OP! I hate to say it tho, but there is already an (also excellent) post about the same manager and system I suggest merging the two and let the discussion flow. Thanks mate! Yeah, I've read that thread and has great ideas, but lacks some analysis on some aspects of the way Diniz make Fluminense play (not a fault from the user that made the thread, but a lot of interesting in-depht analysis came over in the last months when the name of Fernando Diniz has popped out and went "viral"). User didn't add or has updated the thread since it's creation and it went dead in a couple of weeks, so I thought could be useful make a new thread (hoping in more discussion and engagement ) Il 31/5/2023 in 20:46 , TheMartello ha scritto: Great post! Which PI´s do you use? Thank you! I've edited OP and underlined PI's in the role description, but since there are few additions to the default ones, I'll rewrite them here: FBs: get further forward, cross from the byline CMs: Press less often IWs: stay wider APs: Roam from position AML/R: switch positions Edited June 2, 2023 by Fox-7- 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Collectivism Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 Absolutely fantastic write up. Im about to enter preseason and am thinking of switching up my tactic to adopt this - how are you finding the results? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc577 Posted June 3, 2023 Share Posted June 3, 2023 Amazing post on a topic I've been following for months, been waiting for an FM translation like this! Great work @Fox-7- Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox-7- Posted June 4, 2023 Author Share Posted June 4, 2023 (edited) Il 2/6/2023 in 23:58 , Collectivism ha scritto: Absolutely fantastic write up. Im about to enter preseason and am thinking of switching up my tactic to adopt this - how are you finding the results? Thank you! As mentioned in OP, at the moment I've played literally three matches against level teams, because actually I'm playing in Carioca Championship with only Botafogo, Vasco da Gama and Flamengo as Brasileirao teams and the other are all minor teams. So the results aren't very significant yet... I won with Botafogo and Vasco da Gama and just lost with Flamengo, but the feeling having seen the whole match is that they are simply stronger in individual players, their Gerson-Pulgar-Thiago Maia midfield in 4-3-3 DM canceled my double pivot and Ganso always intercepting passes and by anticipating myv players, so much so that I only made 3 shots in the whole match. But the general stats on passing, positions and occupied zones weren't bad. Now that Brasileirao and Libertadores will start, I'll try to give continuity to this tactic for a few games in order to clearly see strengths and weaknesses with more consistent data, and then think about any changes in roles or instructions. Keep in mind that my primary goal is not result, but to have a tactic that replicates Diniz's Fluminense IRL game as closely as possible. Later on with the work I could also think about adding other tactics like 4-2-2-2, 4-3-1-2 or 4-3-3 that have sometimes been used, now I'm focusing exclusively on the 4-2-3-1. And obviously by igradually improving the team with better players we hope to have better results Il 3/6/2023 in 10:23 , jc577 ha scritto: Amazing post on a topic I've been following for months, been waiting for an FM translation like this! Great work @Fox-7- Thanks mate! Edited June 5, 2023 by Fox-7- 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeepyourGuardiolaup Posted June 7, 2023 Share Posted June 7, 2023 I've implemented this tactic myself, but mirrored. So the CWB is for example on the right side and so on. When it works, it's a really good tactic that provides lots of scoring and a tight defense. But the high defensive line naturally also caused me some goals, where the opponent's striker simply outran my defenders. But also I have the feeling you really need a Haaland type of striker to be really successful. Many times, my strikers miss plenty of 1vs1s or headers and end up with a 6.3 rating or worse. My team also bunches up in the middle and they can't really figure out a way to unlock tight defenses. What I tried from the other thread that linked here, was to remove the team instruction of shorter passing, giving it to most players as a player instruction instead. I also told most players to shoot less, in the hope of creating more quality chances. But the results haven't really changed so far. I'm playing the Console Edition, so once my team's morale tanks, it's hard to get it back up again. I have a bad run of results and I'm afraid I'll be sacked soon in my second season. But I don't blame your tactics. As I said, when it works, it's really good football. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox-7- Posted June 8, 2023 Author Share Posted June 8, 2023 22 ore fa, KeepyourGuardiolaup ha scritto: I've implemented this tactic myself, but mirrored. So the CWB is for example on the right side and so on. When it works, it's a really good tactic that provides lots of scoring and a tight defense. But the high defensive line naturally also caused me some goals, where the opponent's striker simply outran my defenders. But also I have the feeling you really need a Haaland type of striker to be really successful. Many times, my strikers miss plenty of 1vs1s or headers and end up with a 6.3 rating or worse. My team also bunches up in the middle and they can't really figure out a way to unlock tight defenses. What I tried from the other thread that linked here, was to remove the team instruction of shorter passing, giving it to most players as a player instruction instead. I also told most players to shoot less, in the hope of creating more quality chances. But the results haven't really changed so far. I'm playing the Console Edition, so once my team's morale tanks, it's hard to get it back up again. I have a bad run of results and I'm afraid I'll be sacked soon in my second season. But I don't blame your tactics. As I said, when it works, it's really good football. HI! Thanks for the comment, I too believe that one of the potential problems with this replication could be the difficulty of scoring against teams that manage to defend well. With the current ME relying too much on possession with certain instructions can make the offensive maneuver absolutely sterile, on the other hand increasing the risk level with higher mentalities or other instructions can lead to wasting too many opportunities or creating low quality ones. In the end, almost all of the construction of the game is done by the first 10 players, while scoring is almost exclusively the task of the central forward. The risk with FM is that it is too one-dimensional and predictable to be successful over the long term. I think the key to really getting the most out of this tactic is to have players who excel in technical and mental stats (quite obvious), and the lone striker is one of the key ones, as you rightly said. In fact, IRL Cano also contributed significantly to the success of Fluminense, given that in Brasilieirao 2022 he scored 26 goals without penalties against 20.39 xG according to Soccerment (even 18.4 xG according to Fbref). In the current state of the tactic, I still have to find the optimal balance, taking into account any limitations of the ME in replicating this very particular (almost unique) style of play. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 One of the best OPs I have seen on here and I am following to see how it evolves. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpecanha Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 (edited) Really nice thread. I have tried to recreate some Diniz-esque tactic (but also with my own touch) playing with Osasco Audax in my last save. I've managed to reach back to back promotions, started in the Paulista Série A3 (São Paulo's third division) and got promoted to Brazilian Série A in 2026. Unfortunately, my file got corrupted and I lost my save. 2023: Paulista Série A3 (winners, promoted), Copa Paulista (winners, qualified to Brazilian Série D and Brazilian Cup). 2024: Paulista Série A2 (semifinalists), Brazilian Série D (winners, promoted), Brazilian Cup (3rd round, lost 1-3 against Atletico Mineiro on aggregate). 2025: Paulista Série A2 (winners, promoted), Brazilian Série C (runners up, promoted) 2026: Paulista Série A1 (8th), Brazilian Série B (4th, promoted). In terms of roles it is kinda different, but when it comes to shape and instructions, it's very similar. This is how my tactic looked. Pressing Forward is a personal preference, but it could be Advanced Forward. Also Attacking Midfielder is not what Diniz does at Fluminense, but since I've selected three playmakers, I wanted to have an attacking midfielder with more focus on scoring goals. I've used a Segundo Volante - Support as well, it's a very common role in Brazil, although I think CM - Support is also a great fit. These two roles are almost the same thing, actually. Here I think it's almost 100% like yours, but I wanted to use Run at Defence, because I felt that my players needed this freedom sometimes. It helped a lot, specially with wing backs going forward with the ball and then retreating to find good passes and open up lines. I used to switch between Narrow/Fairly Narrow attacking width, Much Shorter/Short passing and Slightly Higher/Higher tempo, but this is the basic shape. I also changed crosses depending on who I was using as a striker, but usually they were whipped. Here I just haven't ticked the Slow Pace Down, but I don't think it makes a lot of difference, it's just a matter of resting players a little bit more. Here I opted to use Standard defensive line because my wing backs weren't good defensively, I had one of the worst teams in Serie B and got promotion. If I used Much Higher line, they would give spaces and concede a lot of goals. And sometimes I see his teams resting a little and not pressing extremely hard, so that's why I opted to use "only" high press. But it's kinda close to your tactics anyway. === Also, a comment apart from FM. I support Vasco da Gama, we are rivals with Fluminense, and I have to say: when Fluminense is in a good day, they are really great to watch. Quick, well made passes with lots of technical players and a clinical striker (German Cano), he just needs one touch to score goals and even scored an amazing halfway line goal against us in the Rio State championship - I was at Maracanã, unfortunately. In the Brazilian league we got absolutely trashed against them, somehow Vasco scraped a 1-1 draw. We're in a s*** form currently, but this match against Fluminense was crazy, Vasco scored within 50 seconds and then got dominated for 90 minutes. However, Fluminense needs their full team to play well. They haven't enough good options in the bench and sometimes need to rotate due to our crazy calendar. Usually, when rotating players, Fluminense tends to be more error prone. Edited June 14, 2023 by bpecanha 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox-7- Posted June 16, 2023 Author Share Posted June 16, 2023 Il 13/6/2023 in 06:24 , Crazy_Ivan ha scritto: One of the best OPs I have seen on here and I am following to see how it evolves. Thanks mate! Il 14/6/2023 in 02:01 , bpecanha ha scritto: Really nice thread. I have tried to recreate some Diniz-esque tactic (but also with my own touch) playing with Osasco Audax in my last save. I've managed to reach back to back promotions, started in the Paulista Série A3 (São Paulo's third division) and got promoted to Brazilian Série A in 2026. Unfortunately, my file got corrupted and I lost my save. 2023: Paulista Série A3 (winners, promoted), Copa Paulista (winners, qualified to Brazilian Série D and Brazilian Cup). 2024: Paulista Série A2 (semifinalists), Brazilian Série D (winners, promoted), Brazilian Cup (3rd round, lost 1-3 against Atletico Mineiro on aggregate). 2025: Paulista Série A2 (winners, promoted), Brazilian Série C (runners up, promoted) 2026: Paulista Série A1 (8th), Brazilian Série B (4th, promoted). In terms of roles it is kinda different, but when it comes to shape and instructions, it's very similar. This is how my tactic looked. Pressing Forward is a personal preference, but it could be Advanced Forward. Also Attacking Midfielder is not what Diniz does at Fluminense, but since I've selected three playmakers, I wanted to have an attacking midfielder with more focus on scoring goals. I've used a Segundo Volante - Support as well, it's a very common role in Brazil, although I think CM - Support is also a great fit. These two roles are almost the same thing, actually. Here I think it's almost 100% like yours, but I wanted to use Run at Defence, because I felt that my players needed this freedom sometimes. It helped a lot, specially with wing backs going forward with the ball and then retreating to find good passes and open up lines. I used to switch between Narrow/Fairly Narrow attacking width, Much Shorter/Short passing and Slightly Higher/Higher tempo, but this is the basic shape. I also changed crosses depending on who I was using as a striker, but usually they were whipped. Here I just haven't ticked the Slow Pace Down, but I don't think it makes a lot of difference, it's just a matter of resting players a little bit more. Here I opted to use Standard defensive line because my wing backs weren't good defensively, I had one of the worst teams in Serie B and got promotion. If I used Much Higher line, they would give spaces and concede a lot of goals. And sometimes I see his teams resting a little and not pressing extremely hard, so that's why I opted to use "only" high press. But it's kinda close to your tactics anyway. === Also, a comment apart from FM. I support Vasco da Gama, we are rivals with Fluminense, and I have to say: when Fluminense is in a good day, they are really great to watch. Quick, well made passes with lots of technical players and a clinical striker (German Cano), he just needs one touch to score goals and even scored an amazing halfway line goal against us in the Rio State championship - I was at Maracanã, unfortunately. In the Brazilian league we got absolutely trashed against them, somehow Vasco scraped a 1-1 draw. We're in a s*** form currently, but this match against Fluminense was crazy, Vasco scored within 50 seconds and then got dominated for 90 minutes. However, Fluminense needs their full team to play well. They haven't enough good options in the bench and sometimes need to rotate due to our crazy calendar. Usually, when rotating players, Fluminense tends to be more error prone. Hi, thank you so much for your contribution. What a pity for your save, it seemed you could get even more important results in Brasileirao. The tactic seems good to me, even if respectfully I don't agree with the choice of the AM attack role in the #10 spot (if I think about how Ganso plays), but just as you said in your version given the three playmakers already present, it makes perfect sense. The Run at defence option is something I'm thinking about too in order to add some unpredictability , as rewatching some games ball carries are used a lot once they manage to open up space with possessione in their half to run towards the last defensive line and allowing the other teammates to arrive. The option to distribute to a specific teammate is also something I'd like to try, as I've seen it's often one of the two pivots who drops into the penalty area to start build-up play from the GK, thus making it a 3+3 setup instead of 4+2, but I've never tried it on FM yet. But It could be and on and off option according to specific opponents positions in the first pressing Even with the defense line I have to try and see how it works and what spaces I give if I drop the defensive line or if I go for the high block --------- I totally agree with your comment on Fluminense IRL. I'm not that expert on the average level of players in the Brasileirao, but from some games I've seen and from the results, the difference in level between the 11 starter and the bench players seems quite evident to and external observer like me Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanofafan Posted June 19, 2023 Share Posted June 19, 2023 Hello I have been following this thread and think it is absolutely amazing. This is definitely the best OP on the site. I have been trying to do this for months with mixed results so this has cleared a lot of things up. A question I have is, what would be the problem with putting basically every possible player (so lets say 4 of the attackers and 1 midfielder) on roam from position? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivosaurio Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 Hey! I have been trying your tactic in my Nordsjaelland save for a few preseason friendlies, because i had been using a three at the back that won me a “treble” the season earlier (it was conference league tho lol), but i didn’t really enjoyed watching the games, it was a very automatic style and had no room for crazy passing sequences or stuff like that. So i decided to give your tactic a try, since my squad was built for a barcelona inspired tactic (short, creative and technical players). so far, i haven’t seen many problems in attack or defense, with the caveat that they were games against bottom half clubs. we scored some beautiful goals, and incidentally, we have a really good rest defense thanks to the support fullback and my RPM has looked like prime kimmich. I think i will keep it for the beginning of the season and see how it fares in the champions league. now to the questions. i can see that more often than not my players look for long balls to the AF, which is fine because he gets to them most of the time, the problem is that it isn’t very on brand. i have tried setting every outfield player to Pass it short PI, and Take fewer risks to the usual suspects, but i haven’t noticed a difference quite yet. any idea how to work around it? also, it’s really hard to get the players to clump up on the flanks, probably due to the ME, has anyone found a way to make it work? i thought about off setting the AP but that would forces down one side i think. in terms of the wide players with the switching position instruction, sometime it works and sometimes it’s just like nothing happened. in some transitional moments they get stuck half switch and end up on the same side of the pitch but very briefly only. i thought about maybe moving them to AM position, but i didn’t want to sacrifice the passages of play when we keep the ball on one of the flanks and the trequartista is completely free in a one on one against the opposition fb. just a few thoughts, and i wanted to know what more experienced people like you lot would think about it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivosaurio Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 (edited) this thread has some interesting ideas maybe worth trying, i’m specially intrigued by the claim that play out of defense TI makes your players pin back the opposing defense instead of coming near the ball https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/572366-which-instructions-i-can-use-to-make-my-players-come-near-the-ball/ i don’t mean this as spam, i’m just too invested in making this work lol Edited July 3, 2023 by ivosaurio Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeepyourGuardiolaup Posted July 4, 2023 Share Posted July 4, 2023 I've found an interesting article on Twitter, which our very own @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! shared. Thanks a lot! Though on the matter of functionalism, only the first paragraph is really interesting. https://medium.com/@clarissabarcala/julian-nagelsmann-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-20a425016fe9 Didn't watch Bayern that much over the past season. But some bits of the article ring a bell, especially in the context of this thread. 4-2 shape in buildup, players being clustered in the middle or focusing one side in attack. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
04texag Posted July 4, 2023 Share Posted July 4, 2023 On 31/05/2023 at 09:59, Fox-7- said: things evolve through dialogue and knowledge, and this tactic can certainly evolve into something better than its first version with everyone's contribution. Love the post and what you've done. Thanks for illustrating this tactical approach so well. Can't wait to give this a go! I had ideas in my head before seeing your tactics screen, a lot similar though some differences. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc577 Posted July 4, 2023 Share Posted July 4, 2023 53 minutes ago, 04texag said: Can't wait to give this a go! I had ideas in my head before seeing your tactics screen, a lot similar though some differences. Very eager to see this! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
04texag Posted July 4, 2023 Share Posted July 4, 2023 6 minutes ago, jc577 said: Very eager to see this! Played one game, tweaked things throughout, and landed on a first version to keep messing with. My my, there were some really beautiful phases of play that looked on point. This was quite a fun new thing to find and play with. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc577 Posted July 4, 2023 Share Posted July 4, 2023 2 minutes ago, 04texag said: Played one game, tweaked things throughout, and landed on a first version to keep messing with. My my, there were some really beautiful phases of play that looked on point. This was quite a fun new thing to find and play with. Love this! I've read so much on this topic since the turn of the year and I'm obsessed. Somehow, this style has made it over to Sweden, with Malmo playing an exceptional style of football. Tempted to start a new save to have a play around myself as my Frankfurt team are geared towards high pressing/quick transitions... any recommendations? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox-7- Posted July 5, 2023 Author Share Posted July 5, 2023 Il 19/6/2023 in 19:39 , fanofafan ha scritto: Hello I have been following this thread and think it is absolutely amazing. This is definitely the best OP on the site. I have been trying to do this for months with mixed results so this has cleared a lot of things up. A question I have is, what would be the problem with putting basically every possible player (so lets say 4 of the attackers and 1 midfielder) on roam from position? Hi, thanks for the reply. The main problems that I can imagine are essentially two: - In the possession phase, players could make bad decisions and move with the wrong times and spaces, failing to organize an effective attacking action - In the non-possession phase, areas of the field could be left very open and exposed to rapid counter-attacks if the ball is intercepted or lost. Il 2/7/2023 in 19:13 , ivosaurio ha scritto: Hey! I have been trying your tactic in my Nordsjaelland save for a few preseason friendlies, because i had been using a three at the back that won me a “treble” the season earlier (it was conference league tho lol), but i didn’t really enjoyed watching the games, it was a very automatic style and had no room for crazy passing sequences or stuff like that. So i decided to give your tactic a try, since my squad was built for a barcelona inspired tactic (short, creative and technical players). so far, i haven’t seen many problems in attack or defense, with the caveat that they were games against bottom half clubs. we scored some beautiful goals, and incidentally, we have a really good rest defense thanks to the support fullback and my RPM has looked like prime kimmich. I think i will keep it for the beginning of the season and see how it fares in the champions league. now to the questions. i can see that more often than not my players look for long balls to the AF, which is fine because he gets to them most of the time, the problem is that it isn’t very on brand. i have tried setting every outfield player to Pass it short PI, and Take fewer risks to the usual suspects, but i haven’t noticed a difference quite yet. any idea how to work around it? also, it’s really hard to get the players to clump up on the flanks, probably due to the ME, has anyone found a way to make it work? i thought about off setting the AP but that would forces down one side i think. in terms of the wide players with the switching position instruction, sometime it works and sometimes it’s just like nothing happened. in some transitional moments they get stuck half switch and end up on the same side of the pitch but very briefly only. i thought about maybe moving them to AM position, but i didn’t want to sacrifice the passages of play when we keep the ball on one of the flanks and the trequartista is completely free in a one on one against the opposition fb. just a few thoughts, and i wanted to know what more experienced people like you lot would think about it. Il 4/7/2023 in 01:58 , ivosaurio ha scritto: this thread has some interesting ideas maybe worth trying, i’m specially intrigued by the claim that play out of defense TI makes your players pin back the opposing defense instead of coming near the ball https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/572366-which-instructions-i-can-use-to-make-my-players-come-near-the-ball/ i don’t mean this as spam, i’m just too invested in making this work lol Hello, thanks for the contribution to the thread, I look forward to reading the continuation in your save. I try to follow the order of the answers: -AF with his movements calls the balls behind the defensive line, and on higher mentalities even players are more encouraged to try that type of pass that is risky but with high reward in case of success. Perhaps WBIBs and PIs like the ones you mentioned can mitigate this, but only up to a point. -I'm not fully satisfied with the play on the flanks too. The most I've been able to achieve so far with this setup is to have 6 players close to the ball (ball carrier included). I don't know if it's a limitation of the ME or if trying a different approach I could get more, I'm thinking for example of putting a lot of playmaking roles like a BPD at the back, a RGA/RPM double pivot, an AP-EG-Treq trio in the AM strata...But even if it was I would consider it an unrealistic move -As I wrote in a previous reply, the fact of having selected the option to have AML/R swap positions between them is basically a trick, I believe that in ME it is not possible to make a player completely cut the field from a flank to the other during the normal development of the game. Here too, one could try to put three narrow AMs juggling between roles, duties and PIs, but I don't think we can still arrive at a satisfactory result (and in any case IRL players like Arias and Keno clearly start as AML/R in the field) Finally, the thread you linked is interesting, it would be wonderful if someone could explain whether PoD actually makes the more advanced players move away from the ball, even if being a simple on/off instruction you will probably immediately notice any difference. Even the fact of not selecting playmaking roles to involve more players in the possession is an alternative point of view, even if everything needs to be verified 19 ore fa, KeepyourGuardiolaup ha scritto: I've found an interesting article on Twitter, which our very own @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! shared. Thanks a lot! Though on the matter of functionalism, only the first paragraph is really interesting. https://medium.com/@clarissabarcala/julian-nagelsmann-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-20a425016fe9 Didn't watch Bayern that much over the past season. But some bits of the article ring a bell, especially in the context of this thread. 4-2 shape in buildup, players being clustered in the middle or focusing one side in attack. Thanks for the link, it's a long read but as soon as I get some time I'll definitely check it out 18 ore fa, 04texag ha scritto: Love the post and what you've done. Thanks for illustrating this tactical approach so well. Can't wait to give this a go! I had ideas in my head before seeing your tactics screen, a lot similar though some differences. 17 ore fa, 04texag ha scritto: Played one game, tweaked things throughout, and landed on a first version to keep messing with. My my, there were some really beautiful phases of play that looked on point. This was quite a fun new thing to find and play with. 16 ore fa, jc577 ha scritto: Love this! I've read so much on this topic since the turn of the year and I'm obsessed. Somehow, this style has made it over to Sweden, with Malmo playing an exceptional style of football. Tempted to start a new save to have a play around myself as my Frankfurt team are geared towards high pressing/quick transitions... any recommendations? Thank you all, @04texag could you share some screenshots to see the differences and the things in common? PS i loved your threads about Positional Play of some editions ago! -------------------------------------------------------------------- Unfortunately, in these weeks I had very little time to play FM, I only played seven more games in the season, finished the Carioca championship and started the Libertadores with the first two games of the group stage. Contrary to some of your recent feedback, I'm having a bad run and, regardless of the results, I'm not happy with what I'm seeing on the pitch. In some matches the game is beautiful to watch with fantastic exchanges, many goal chances and constant control over the game (even without a result, for example in Libertadores I lost to Boca Juniors 2-1 conceding two situational goals, one due to an individual error of my RB with bad ball control that opened the way for the attacker and the other from their GK's long clearance with my CB who gets overtaken by the ball leaving a 1vs1 against the GK, but I dominated the match), in others I am totally unable to create anything leaving the game completely to the opponents (I'm thinking of the first leg of the Carioca semifinal against Vasco da Gama or the double final against Flamengo, in theset three games I've put together 10 total shots and conceded 50+). I haven't been able to collect and study all the data of these matches in detail, the thing I noticed by eye are the many passes intercepted and the balls stolen from my players' feet. The feeling I have, as I have already said previously, is that with this type of approach the first technical and then mental attributes of the players are fundamental, and in this my team does not excel, so without good ball control and passing precise the game plan goes down the drain. Also, having started a series of bad results (at least this reflects well the current IRL Fluminense trend), I also don't want the deteriorating morale to affect the attitude of the players during the matches. Now the Brasileirao will start and I'll wait a few more games until I reach the maximum of tactical familiarity, then I could try to do some tweaks. Possible changes in the instructions (initially one at a time in this order) -Drop the tempo by one notch -Raise passing lenght a notch to shorter passes -Remove WBIB (something not actually systematic IRL) -Remove dribble less (also not so suitable with IRL Fluminense) -Drop mentality to Standard. And then, some thoughts on the roles. IRL double pivots play in a very similar way in terms of involvement in possession, maybe André in a more horizontal way and Martinelli in a more vertical way, and with Ganso they form the nucleus that keeps the team going...do you think I should maybe try a sort of triangle RGA (more horizontal)-RPM (more vertical)-AP (or EG, I have to see if EG makes more horizontal movement towards the flanks looking for the ball despite having hold position hardcoded)? I don't like too much this idea but could be a solution... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivosaurio Posted July 8, 2023 Share Posted July 8, 2023 thanks for your input! @Fox-7- so, a couple of thoughts. since your latest post, i haven’t played my main save, so no news on that front, but i set up a “test save” from the same point of the season. the idea is to use it to try out all this little tweaks in a more “systematic” way. i’m playing on the touch version, so there’s no tactical familiarity to worry about, and the ME is pretty much the same, but correct me if i’m wrong of course. something we can all agree on is that you definitely need a certain kind of players to pull this off. in our league the average attribute level is 11, and my team is way above it in both technical and mental attributes (we are mostly below average physically tho), so this provides a great starting point. so far i have played two games, again, against lesser teams, both fairly emphatic wins. i tried some of the changes you talked about; implementing a REG and RPM for the double pivot, plus an EG mostly to look at his movements, since i’m actually pretty happy with the original AP. ticked off WBIB, Drible Less and Play out of defense. changed to Balanced mentality, standard tempo and shorter passing. what i have noticed from the two games, purely by the eye test: -much more direct, a bit too much, without WBIB, my players are always looking for the AF with long balls and early crosses -definitely need to find an alternative to the AF role, he makes us a bit too direct, but i will actually look more closely to Cano’s profile first, because i want to stay as true as possible to the source material. i’m thinking maybe a poacher? let me know what you think -it seems like we really are dependent on the striker to score the goals, every open play goal we have scored since changing to this style has been from this position. but i’m happy to inform that i have tried three different players here, and they all have scored multiple goals, so we must be creating quality chances. -i have some problems with the EG-RPM-REG core. the double pivot seems to be working okay, in terms of vertical and horizontal movement, although i’m yet to test it against stronger opposition, because my players tend to loose a lot of duels, thus making us really vulnerable to turn overs. the EG is a no no for me tho, he is just too static in the center of the pitch, perfect for relationist play through the middle, but a ghost if we try to play down the flanks. i find the AP’s roaming to be more suitable to this specific style. -thinking of maybe changing the REG, because he plays way too many long passes instead of keeping the ball -a bit of tweaking is needed to play out without the actual instruction, it is definitely possible, but for example i haven’t seen my CDs as deep as the goalkeeper during a goal kick -it needs further testing, but play out of defense ticked off seems to make the attacking players come infield during goal kicks. there were some passages of play where both wide players were in the AM area when playing out, and the AP dropped really deep, almost like a central midfielder. also, the trequartista gets in some really nice pockets of space in this AM positioning, sometimes offering a passing option for a more direct pass from the defender or the pivots, ala De Zerbi. -thinking about switching one or both of the CDs to BPD with dribble more, because it’s something Diniz asks his center backs to do if i remember correctly from a few analysis i’ve read about him. plus, correct me if im wrong, but this would help us maybe be more direct against deeper blocks but without sacrificing possession, and maybe sometimes opening passing lanes to more attacking players, leading to passing sequences involving the center backs as well? let me know what you think, i’m no expert lol that’s all for now, but i will create a bigger sample size to give you stronger data please feel free to give your opinion on any of these claims, and let’s keep this feedback loop going! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivosaurio Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 hey guys! so, after lots of testing, i accidentally came up with a this version of @Fox-7-’s tactic, and let me say, it has been by far the closest thing i have seen to the source material in the match engine, with really fluid movement, tabelas, first touch passes, and most importantly, building up play down the flanks!!! just a few things: i think you need a certain kind of player for this style, definitely high first touch, technique, anticipation, maybe even flair. for example, first touch is a priority in my recruitment strategy, even for my center backs. Spoiler also, this tactic is relies on the striker to score the goals and chance quality over quantity. in the matches i’ve played it, we created lots of really high quality chances against weaker teams, im talking literal tap ins from inside the penalty box that any striker would score, but you really need more of a clinical profile (very much like IRL Cano) to score against better teams, when chances will still be high quality but much scarcer. there’s quite a few PI’s too, but i don’t really have time to write them down right now, i’ll do it later, don’t worry. also, i recorded a few videos of some beautiful passing sequences to show you how it plays out in the ME, but it’s like seven of them, and since it’s my first time posting i have no idea how to share them. thought about turning all of them into really bad quality gifs, but i didn’t think you would appreciate that lol, so any recommendations on how to do it would be great! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hehehemann Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 (edited) Just a quick possible change you could make as I have also been trying to replicate the Diniz style but on FM21. I dont like the AF position at all. It encourages too many long balls. Instead I settled on the Poacher role. My poacher has the dwells on the ball PPM and although his passing isnt the best I find him to be holding up the attack and then laying off the ball to his comrades sprinting forward. He then moves into typical poacher positions drawing the defenders with him which allows the two wide men (IWa and T) to come into the middle and offer an alternative goal scoring threat. I also use a balanced approach and switch this to positive or cautious depending on the scoreline/aim of my match outcome. Great write up and really good follow ups! Edited July 9, 2023 by hehehemann 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivosaurio Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 sorry about the wait, just a busy sunday these are the PI’s for this tactic above: 20 hours ago, ivosaurio said: SK: Pass it shorter, Take fewer risks (this is in the attempt of making him play out the back without the actual instruction, but sometimes he will still just punt it long, any suggestion?) FB: Pass it shorter, Cross from byline, Shoot less often, Get further forward BPD: Pass it shorter, Dribble more CD: Pass it shorter, Take fewer risks CWB: Pass it shorter, Dribble more, Shoot less often REG: Pass it shorter, Shoot less often, Stay wider RPM: Pass it shorter, Shoot less often, Dribble more, Run wide with the ball, Close down less T: Pass it shorter, Shoot less often AP: Pass it shorter, Roam from position, Move into channels IW: Pass it shorter, Shoot less often, Stay wider AF: Pass it shorter NOTE: i’m not an expert in this at all, and i’m sure some of this are redundant or even actively affecting the way we play, but i honestly wouldn’t know, so please let me know what you think! which ones should stay or go? 13 hours ago, hehehemann said: I dont like the AF position at all. It encourages too many long balls. Instead I settled on the Poacher role. thank you for your input! that’s a good call, it’s just silly that when the ball carrier has quite literally 5 players around him to play a pass, he decides to launch the ball into stratosphere in hopes of the AF getting to it. i was already thinking of a poacher as an alternative, gonna give it a try. 13 hours ago, hehehemann said: I also use a balanced approach and switch this to positive or cautious depending on the scoreline/aim of my match outcome. yep, that’s something i’ve played around now that we have started the league games in the test save. there’s some matches were the players just go haywire and pretend they are playing on very attacking, so i turn it down to balanced until we get more control of the match and then maybe go back up to positive if we haven’t scored yet by then. as of the videos, ended up posting them on youtube, please enjoy! maybe these will encourage you to try this for yourselves and hopefully improve upon it https://youtu.be/UvbkiiZD5Dw https://youtu.be/wnY6PztYtqU https://youtu.be/7pHAmO8B6zs https://youtu.be/_WL3i_CIBkk https://youtu.be/PKLnxARwnUY https://youtu.be/JA9lXXbkXso https://youtu.be/Quxq6Wx-9mU 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeepyourGuardiolaup Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 So basically, what this boils down to, is having one playmaker being surrounded by five or six players, giving him plenty of passing options in theory. Maybe we can "cheat" a bit, by using a positional play light? I.e. sort of imagining the positions the players may have to end up, to be fully effective? As for the striker: I also had my problems with the Advanced Forward, as he wasted too many chances. As I said, you probably need a Haaland-type of striker. But maybe a Complete Forward on attack could do the trick? Still scoring goals, but also being more involved in build-up and perhaps also playing more one-two passes? I may try that out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc577 Posted July 15, 2023 Share Posted July 15, 2023 (edited) Hey guys, I’ve found some more interesting reading material which thought you might like! https://medium.com/@stirlingj1982/dice-games-e05bded72596 https://www.osegundovolante.com/post/tactical-analysis-henrik-rydström-malmö-tactics-analysis https://youtu.be/UqIzAmSadd0 Let me know what you think! *Edit* @Cleon has also just released 5 in-depth articles on the topic over on twitter!! Been waiting for this 😍 Edited July 15, 2023 by jc577 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopfv Posted July 15, 2023 Share Posted July 15, 2023 @Fox-7- brilliant work! Do you mind share the tactic? Thanks a lot! And let's see the "dinizmo" in brazilian squad! Spoiler Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyKjr Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 (edited) Love this thread, and some excellent tactical analysis by OP that is rivalled only by one or two other write-ups I've seen on the subject. I've spent the last week or two trying to recreate this style of football in FM, and have tried multiple different ways to make it work. First things first, you CAN get 7 players, including the ball carrier, to tilt to the ball-side of the pitch. The downside is you need to use wide center backs, which are exactly what this tactic needs. However, to do this in game we have to have a third CB, meaning we have to sacrifice somewhere else on the pitch. For this example, I was playing strikerless, with Ganso as a CAM Treq. With strikerless not being as strong as in previous games, this seems to, on average, lead to fewer goalscoring opportunities than having a striker involved. For the CD I went with Libero, with the idea being that they would push up the center channel whilst facing the ball-side. This didn't really work, as the Libero is very keen to stay central and doesn't show for the ball often, and will get stuck hanging behind the midfielders. It can work sometimes, but infrequently. I had better examples of the Libero coming to the ball than this that I didn't capture as screenshots, but these instances were limited to only a few times per match. This appears to be about as far as we can push the match engine, without getting into stuff I personally don't want to do, like stacking one side of the pitch in the formation itself (this can work as shown by RDF Tactics, but I'd prefer a team that can tilt to either side). A few other observations from my testing across multiple formation variations: 1. Escadinhas actually appear very frequently, but are never utilized. Cool to see but I'd love to see them actually work in a future FM title. 2. Not only does this strategy need the right players, but I suspect they need to have the right PPMs. I have a hunch that with a number of players with "plays one-twos," "tries tricks" and "comes deep to get ball," this could end up looking a lot closer to the real thing. I'm tempted to grab an FMRTE license just to test this, but I might just do it the hard way by building a team around this tactic over a few seasons. 3. You need two 8s to really pull this off in any capacity, or at least two DMs who are willing to roam and run. The midfield players will score a lot of goals/have a lot of shots, so for the sake of actually winning football matches, try to find players with good long shots. 4. I suspect "be more expressive" is contributing to players semi-frequently making the decision to go more direct, and the midfielders shooting from distance as often as they do, but it seems too counter-intuitive to the philosophy of the tactic to turn it off. Edited August 12, 2023 by DannyKjr 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyKjr Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 (edited) Apologies for the rapid posts, but I threw one last attempt at the wall today and actually got some promising results. Having noticed that in my two-striker systems, my strikers seem willing to roam pretty far from their designated side, I figured I'd go a little wild and try a double trequartista at striker. This is only based on 55 minutes of football (watching full match), but the far-side treq is very willing to drift to the ball side and create an 8-man tilt. In this case, Arias is the STCL, and is the one unmarked player (I couldn't seem to click on him behind his marker). Possession has just been played back to Guga by Pirani, to be yo-yo'd back into the tilt. Definitely some experimentation to be done with F9s, DLFs or CFs and some player instructions, I think. You can see though that the gaps in our shape have been exploited for a number of high-quality chances by solid opposition. The wide press actually works well, since in systems without wing presence, midfielders will shift across to cover off the wide passing lanes. Once they find a central option and switch the ball though, we've been punished frequently, so some more tweaks might be needed. I think this could look like something really dynamic with, again, the right PPMs and full tactical familiarity, and good team cohesion. Edited August 12, 2023 by DannyKjr 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Germaniac Posted September 7, 2023 Share Posted September 7, 2023 (edited) On 12/08/2023 at 11:41, DannyKjr said: Love this thread, and some excellent tactical analysis by OP that is rivalled only by one or two other write-ups I've seen on the subject. I've spent the last week or two trying to recreate this style of football in FM, and have tried multiple different ways to make it work. First things first, you CAN get 7 players, including the ball carrier, to tilt to the ball-side of the pitch. The downside is you need to use wide center backs, which are exactly what this tactic needs. However, to do this in game we have to have a third CB, meaning we have to sacrifice somewhere else on the pitch. For this example, I was playing strikerless, with Ganso as a CAM Treq. With strikerless not being as strong as in previous games, this seems to, on average, lead to fewer goalscoring opportunities than having a striker involved. For the CD I went with Libero, with the idea being that they would push up the center channel whilst facing the ball-side. This didn't really work, as the Libero is very keen to stay central and doesn't show for the ball often, and will get stuck hanging behind the midfielders. It can work sometimes, but infrequently. I had better examples of the Libero coming to the ball than this that I didn't capture as screenshots, but these instances were limited to only a few times per match. This appears to be about as far as we can push the match engine, without getting into stuff I personally don't want to do, like stacking one side of the pitch in the formation itself (this can work as shown by RDF Tactics, but I'd prefer a team that can tilt to either side). A few other observations from my testing across multiple formation variations: 1. Escadinhas actually appear very frequently, but are never utilized. Cool to see but I'd love to see them actually work in a future FM title. 2. Not only does this strategy need the right players, but I suspect they need to have the right PPMs. I have a hunch that with a number of players with "plays one-twos," "tries tricks" and "comes deep to get ball," this could end up looking a lot closer to the real thing. I'm tempted to grab an FMRTE license just to test this, but I might just do it the hard way by building a team around this tactic over a few seasons. 3. You need two 8s to really pull this off in any capacity, or at least two DMs who are willing to roam and run. The midfield players will score a lot of goals/have a lot of shots, so for the sake of actually winning football matches, try to find players with good long shots. 4. I suspect "be more expressive" is contributing to players semi-frequently making the decision to go more direct, and the midfielders shooting from distance as often as they do, but it seems too counter-intuitive to the philosophy of the tactic to turn it off. I've actually seen my team doing the escadinhas, but it seemed that the receiver was indeed the designated receiver and the dummy was only a player whom the ball just happen to run across. As such, the dummy didn't actually do anything since the opponents seemed to already know who's going to receive the ball. Now escadinhas is a fairly complex and understudied technique so I can excuse its absence in FM, but I believe one-twos and pass-and-move should be something we can implement with our tactics, especially when the former is already a PPM, I don't think there'd be problems in an option to encourage one-twos through player/team instructions. Hopefully SI will consider it for this year's FM. Edited September 7, 2023 by Germaniac Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
milenec11 Posted September 12, 2023 Share Posted September 12, 2023 Very good article analysis and tactical approach to replicate a tactic . bu I believe that is not a plug n play tactic and the team has to have a certain type of players to play with this . so by your knowledge what kind of players need by position which are the most crucial characteristics? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Germaniac Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 On 12/08/2023 at 11:41, DannyKjr said: First things first, you CAN get 7 players, including the ball carrier, to tilt to the ball-side of the pitch. Had been getting similar results, but there's way too much flank switching. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivosaurio Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 hey guys, what’s your take on what combination of passing directness, tempo and mentality works best for this style? because from what i understand, the idea is to play risky passes into congested areas, which normally would be avoided, but this doesn’t really happen in the current ME. i’ve been playing with higher tempo, much shorter passing and positive mentality, but i found that it made us loose the ball too often to miss placed passes or long balls. then i tried lowering the tempo and mentality and it’s okay, but anything below balanced is too different of an approach for me Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordluap Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 12 hours ago, ivosaurio said: hey guys, what’s your take on what combination of passing directness, tempo and mentality works best for this style? because from what i understand, the idea is to play risky passes into congested areas, which normally would be avoided, but this doesn’t really happen in the current ME. i’ve been playing with higher tempo, much shorter passing and positive mentality, but i found that it made us loose the ball too often to miss placed passes or long balls. then i tried lowering the tempo and mentality and it’s okay, but anything below balanced is too different of an approach for me I think Player Traits will play a large part here... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carambau Posted September 19, 2023 Share Posted September 19, 2023 Wonderful thread! Thank you for providing this insight Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Rashidi Posted October 9, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted October 9, 2023 It’s time to take a deep dive into understanding how Fluminese play. It’s a style of football that appears in stark contrast to other predominant styles of football. There are plenty of good sources of information on this including work by Jamie Hamilton, Jozef Bozsik, Caio Miguel, the writers at the Athletic, Total Football Analysis, Purist Football and the technical information from the analysts over at Between The Posts and Ben Griffis over at Bundesliga Analytics. So if you want to do your own research I would recommend them as the best sources of information. As far as FM content creators are concerned, bloggers and youtubers, it’s @RDF Tactics research that stands out from the pack. Not forgetting as well the forum post from @Fox-7- As always raw data is from fbref.com. I do not pretend to be an expert at this and a lot of my observations are based in part on how other coaches and analysts have arrived a their conclusions. Some of you may not agree but hey everyone is entitled to an opinion. This is a journey on trying to see if I can get this style working on FM24. Most modern managers like Xavi, and Guardiola are fixated by controlling space. They have clearly defined roles for players to control The most common tactical approach in Europe is positional play, where the individual movements of players serve the team as a whole. Creativity takes a back seat to structure and control of space. In these kind of systems coaches want their players working within a clear structure. While it looks like a lot of movement between players, they are just switching jobs between zones. These zones are defined, like the commonly seen box shapes that Guardiola uses. This allows for repeatable passing moves and is the predominant style of football practised by coaches like Roberto De Zerbi, Pep Guardiola, Jurgen Klopp and quite a few others. Their goal is to control and attack space. Positional football does this by a form of zone attack - targeting specific zones for control and attack. Coaches that attack zones in this way are trying to make the players play within a system which focuses more on the unit than relying on the individual’s need for a moment of brilliance. The Evolution of Escadinhas (Diagonal Lines) What is an Escadinha? It is basically a diagonal line. It happens in football when players make forward movements relative to other players after passing the ball. A player passes the ball forward to someone else then runs vertically up. This movement creates a step ladder of sorts called an Escadinha. To understand it in detail I would suggest reading Jamie Hamilton's post on medium. We have offensive and defensive diagonals and he explains it very well in that brilliant post. At Fluminense, Fernando Diniz is bringing “street football’ back. His style of football brings back memories of the great Brazilian sides of the past, free flowing yet functional, creating patterns of play that lead to staggered diagonal lines of attack through midfield - its a system where the team positions itself in such a way that it creates asymmetries called “escadinha’s for the progression of play. Roles are not confined to zones, in fact players have a lot of creative freedom to move around the pitch and form relationships with players. In a match played against Flamengo, their right winger moved to the left flank and formed a relationship with the left winger. Creating these kind of relationships to build up play using short passing at a high tempo is a key facet of their play. Some have called it chaotic football, but it is anything but. There is a clear structure to how they play. To understand this we need to understand its origins. The goal in football is simple: Teams that have the ball have to move up the pitch to score and down the pitch to defend. In an effort to move the ball up the pitch, mid 20th century Brazilian teams began to have diagonal orientations in their systems. Flavio Costa developed a system where sides would set themselves up along the diagonals of the football pitch creating asymmetric relationships between players. These asymmetries were called Escadinhas otherwise known as diagonals or symbolically understood as a step ladder. Defining Costa’s system would be impossible, you could call it a 343, 235, 325 or 424. Players performed functions on the field while covering for each other. When one player moved forward another would assume his function. This is how Brazil played in 1950. Players had the freedom to move, change space, dribble and risk moments with individual brilliance. Seeing this play out as a 424 was not uncommon, it allowed for those asymmetries to develop easily. As the team moved up the pitch with the left back, the, left midfielder would drop back and begin the ‘escadinha’, the left midfielder in this example, Danilo would turn into a playmaking midfielder. If the diagonal shifted to the other side, then the reverse would happen and the right sided midfielder would drop back and the ladder would form again. The next Brazilian manager to take this further would be Zagallo. When the team was without the ball they would drop into a 442. They would be organised depending on which side the ball was on. It was the beginning of the pendulum attack. If the right sided fullback went up the left sided fullback would be on the defensive diagonal. In the next image Everaldo forms the base of the defensive diagonal while the offensive diagonal is attacking down the right. Functional football, or Fernando Diniz’s brand of football, isn’t new, its just a return to the roots. After years of systemic football, they needed a return to the basics of street football. UNDERSTANDING THE DIFFERENCES What’s the key difference between the European style of positional football and this form of street football? In positional football, symmetry is essential, this creates spaces for movement within offensive zones. Each player moves into a fixed area and assumes the position in that area. For example a fullback could move into a channel, the inside forward could drop between the lines and the central midfielder would then move to the base of that move to cover for the fullback who has moved up into a channel. In positional football, there are fixed zones, players simply move in and out of these zones to control them, with the ultimate goal of moving into a better zone to attack from. Positional systems basically are a form of zone attacks. Even Pep Guardiola makes that distinction calling them positional attacks. Positional attacks are just one way to attack space in the game of football. Functional football does it differently. In the functional game, asymmetry is key. The movement in going forward creates diagonal lines between the players to receive the ball. The players use that staggered shape to move the ball up the pitch. Attacking space is fundamental to both positional football and functional football. While positional play does it with fixed zones, functional players uses the asymmetric positioning of players to create diagonal passing lines. Functional play is intrinsically Brazilian in flavour. For nearly 40 years they dominated world football playing a brand of asymmetrical football built around the exceptional skills of their players. FOCUSING ON FLUMINENSE - Stats and Patterns - Dominates possession - Playing out from the back - Dictating the tempo of games - Passing directness is short, tempo is quite high averaging around 14.8 passes per minute of possession (Caio Miguel) - Lowest longest passes per 90 at 31.14 despite having 418.98 per 90. Fourth highest in the Brasilero in 2022 - Overpowers the flanks with numbers for counterpressing - In possession they have no clearly defined shape that players need to follow In their 4-1 win over at Flamengo, Ben Griffis did some pretty good analytical illustrations off OPTA showing their heat maps and average positions. I am very interested in where their penetration passes into the end zone start from. You can find his work, unfortunately there are very limited items on Fluminense. I will zoom in on the one I am more interested in. Final third penetration happens primarily through the half spaces. In that match against amongst their central midfielders Andre had 6 passes longer than 30 yards, while Alexander mostly played shorter passes. The backline of Felippe Melo, Nino, Samuel Xavier and Fabio their keeper also completed longer passes in the game with Melo raking in 7 and Nino 6. In the attacking 3rd, their strikers mostly attempted shorter passes in general. Ganso playing largely in the middle of a 4 man attack had a decent distribution of short and medium passes with 38 in total, attempting at least 4 passes that were longer than 30 yards with a 50% success ratio. Whatever tactic I create needs to have the majority of its final third entries happening from the halfspaces. It is also important to establish the amount of carries and progressive distance covered by these players, as some want me to believe that they “dribble less” by default. A carry in football is basically any attempt by a player to control the ball with their feet. Progressive carries bring the ball forward. No 12 Marcelo had the most carries as a player from their own half. In most games you will see his heatmaps have a substantial focus. What I like to do is compare these to carries per match and pass locations for a season. To do that we cor-relate these to the data from fbref.com, to basically determine the proportion of passes he makes forwards and laterally. I do this to find out what role he should be assigned. When replicating a tactic, I am not fixated of choosing the role he plays in real life, I am fixated on choosing the role that best produces that kind of movement in the game. In his case it will be the complete wingback on support. On the opposite flank its going to be a wingback on defend. Finally Ganso’s influence. He is a playmaker and more importantly the final third link. Most of the final third action goes through him like a conductor. Once again you could go to totalfootballanalysis to get the specific pass diagrams for Ganso, they will just show that a lot of passes go through him, however based on fbref.com data, we know that he doesn't make the most number of passes, nor is he the highest pass receiver We now have most of the data we need to build the replication. Next I isolate the style and phases of play. FLUMINENSE STYLE OF FOOTBALL Fluminense players will move across a pitch creating numerical overloads. And while they might have 4 defenders at the back, more players could shift to one side of the pitch for buildup up. This creates congestion and while some have intimated that they only play through congested areas, I disagree. There are plenty of matches that have shown that they do attack open space when its good idea to do so. I have included images from some matches later. They use basic principles of pass and run and a simple one-two to move the ball. They do this very well using a staggered buildup in midfield creating 3rd man runs. It creates entertaining football. They also focus play exclusively down the flanks to counter press the ball against teams that are sitting back and defending all day. How do we achieve this kind of intricate movement? First stop thinking that it needs to be a specific formation, the moment you do that you run into trouble. Ask yourself what kind of roles will give me those staggered diagonals across the pitch. Then you have created a functional attack built around asymmetric movement of players. We do not need to force an asymmetrical system, like a 442 onto the team, there are plenty of roles in football manager that can give us an asymmetrical attacking shape while defending in symmetry. While I know what I am trying to achieve, I need to recognise certain limitations. The game of Football Manager loves to move the ball into available spaces. You could be patiently building up play down the right, its congested and then it switches to the left flank, where it isn’t crowded, let me delve into expected shapes I want to see. SHAPES THEY CAN TAKE UP To understand what kind of formation would be our starting point we need to establish certain patterns. This is what they might look like when they go attack down the right flank. There are some diagonal patterns in attack. These kind of shapes can be attained by several formations, 4231, 442,4222 and even the 433 And if they are going down the other side, they could look like that DEFENSIVE PHASE When defending, they can appear fairly disorganised and frequently found wanting down the flanks. This was in evidence in their 2023 Conmebol Libertadores game against Internacional. They press aggressively in packs and frequently along the flanks. They defend in a high block and play a variety of defensive lines, this defensive line actually has one defender in their penalty area. MIDFIELD TRANSITION PHASE In a lot of fm tactics, I’ve seen people deciding that they do not dribble at all. In reality they do, at least during certain phases. The ball playing defenders do bring the ball out of defence, and they also transition the ball through midfield with a carry too. Against better sides they do switch the ball to empty flanks and play longer passes as well. In their Libertadores game, one of their players carried the ball a good 35 yards bringing the ball from their defensive third all the way to the edge of the oppositions defensive third. This was his starting position. He laid the ball off here to a player behind him who played it out to another player on the right who took a shot from outside the area. So while its nice to paint a perfect picture of Fluminense, we have to recognise that the fundamental feature of their game is their staggered buildups, and while they do like to play “street football” on a pitch, like many sides they do adapt. A distinct challenge for playing like this is when sides reduce space in the channels. You can clearly see from the picture above that while they may have numerical superiority, transitioning through them will be difficult with average players in a team. BUILD OUT PLAY They have a 4-2 buildup from the back involving their keeper. Depending on who they face, the could play it out with 2 ball playing defenders less than 2 yards away from the keeper with both defensive midfielders deep. Out of defence at least one of their defensive midfielders will help to build play out from the back. He is sitting between the two central defenders. Or they could look like this, either way at least one defensive midfielder drops very deep. As they move the ball out of defence, the play shifts to the right. There is always constant movement from their players to create optimal passing lanes, this is done by having more players in closer proximity. Players higher up the pitch will also drop deeper to support play, giving them an extra man to build out with. Players do attack space, here one of their central midfielders instantly attacks space. They can make these kind of runs with the ball and without the ball. When they do this without the ball its to make space for others to make themselves available for passes. It can also happen when a player carries the ball out from one zone into the next, drawing players to him whilst making space for others. The action from the last image continues here. The ball leaves defence and is now carried by Andre Trindade the number 7 in midfield, with play being supported either side. Its interesting it looks almost like a 433 with a halfback and a slightly more adventurous role that works in the defensive midfield and central midfield zones. He passed the ball when he reached central midfield. This buildup is a big clue on the roles we can use, and the way they defend is another clue on where those same players might end up sometimes. This move led to their winner, Andres simple pass to central attacking midfield then kicked in 3 one touch passing moves that led to the winner. The narrow buildup attracts a significant number of opposition players to one area which leaves space elsewhere which they do take advantage of. They do occasionally play the diagonal to attack these spaces. Their attack patterns aren’t always about going through the path of greatest resistance with short simple passes, but also involve passes into space. ATTACKING PHASE In the final phase of attack, players are given more latitude to express themselves, attacking play can be patient and probing. HOW THEIR MIDFIELD TRANSITION AFFECTS THEIR DEFENDING Some teams notice how they like to have extra numbers on one side during some of their buildup phases, here the Internacional keeper elects to kick the ball long to start a quick attack, and because the Fluminense players have drifted towards the side where the ball is heading, space opens up down the right. This attack led to a shot on goal, which was parried out for a corner that gave Mercado the chance to put Internacional into the lead. In the image above you should be aware of the defensive shape of the backline, its a similar outcome for most box buildups. When a formation has a box buildup in midfield or out of defence, the outer backs come inside and in doing so they leave space down the flanks. This is something other teams will exploit with direct attacks. As they push their defensive lines higher they leave themselves open to numerous counters and in each one you can see the effect of having players either roaming or inverted can have on their defence. In both images their defenders in the lighter colored jerseys are trying to prevent goal scoring chances. FOOTBALL MANAGER TACTICAL TRANSLATION Key features to achieve in the translation to football manager: Defending - Press after losing possession, aggressive press around the flanks Offense - Slow buildup, possession orientated. During the buildup some dribbling and carrying the ball, during the attack phase little dribbling, more 1-2 passes and 3rd man runs. Attacks that can leave them vulnerable down the flanks Keepers - Play the ball on the ground and come out to claim crosses Fullbacks - Generally play a balanced game of football, not overly aggressive, but do under and overlap Both centre mids are expected to shut down passing lanes, support attack and defence, defend the wingers and drift wide Strikers are sometimes decoys, they roam and often times swap positions. The rest of this appears when FM24 drops, let's get the bulk of the research out of the way. 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashidi Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 **Reserved** FM 24 Replication Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashidi Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 **Reserved** Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
04texag Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 Looking forward to this. I've personally been debating running something along these lines, or reverting to my usual of a JdP recreation. I think with the new updates and positions, I'll be doing a positional play go first, but I'll be closely following this as I'll inevitably do a save with this approach second. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashidi Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 22 hours ago, 04texag said: Looking forward to this. I've personally been debating running something along these lines, or reverting to my usual of a JdP recreation. I think with the new updates and positions, I'll be doing a positional play go first, but I'll be closely following this as I'll inevitably do a save with this approach second. Yeah I know a lot of people have tried to do the team, and I have often said its impossible. So I thought I'd chronicle it here while doing the same thing on a video eventually. With the positional play feature I am worried that it becomes too rigid. So I may update the research section which is the one I just posted with more key pass combinations from Ben Griffis. And also specific heatmaps for individual players to show which parts of the pitch they influence. I already have the with ball passing diagram which shows the ratio of passes for each player, length and direction. So I wanna give this a good go. Credit to the rest though who have done a similar thing. Initially wanted to add this to their threads or merge them, but I was concerned it would appear as if I were hijacking it, seeing how its almost a 2000 word essay. Hopefully this doesnt end up like my theory of mentality thesis which i did in 2004. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashidi Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 @Fox-7-Can we merge the Fluminense replication threads. I have just started one, there might be another l, we could merge all three with yours being the main thread. My goal is to see how far I can get replicating it for FM24. This way we have the discussion centred in your thread. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashidi Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 Great work on this thread, I had no idea it was this good, I normally never read another person's thread if I am planning a similar topic. I always read after the fact, and was surprised to find so many similarities. I have to admit Ben Griffis key maps are not easy to find. I only managed to find two for the team. My goal was to replicate their left sided emphasis. and also the tactical weakness of having Marcelo playing so high up in many transitions. Guga I found a lot less adventurous. This fluminense system is definitely not rock solid, its transitions always point to a colossal problem against teams that play direct with high tempo. They usually look like they are struggling. More and more times are now closing the channels to make it harder for them to go through them vertically. It will be interesting to see how Diniz adapts. So like I said I had that left sided focus and achieved something I was happy with The tactic ended up looking like this the first time. I chose the TM(S) because of how the transitions affect him when he has lots of players around. He drops very deep lays off, and passes it to some one. Very much a give and go role. Yeah it scores some of the best goals I have seen on FM23, but its crazy weak down the left. I like to call that the Marcelo issue. I also created something a bit different. With the next tactic, its the left sided focus again to get a similar heatmap with those diagonals using Guga as the focal point of the defensive diagonal, but I also wanted the "boxes" which were such a hallmark of latin football. In this tactic we will have a box form in the defensive phase and then another box in the midfield phase. I really enjoyed this and wanted to thank everyone who was egging me on to do a Fluminense replication. Ooh forgot to add, the keeper should be a sweeper keeper 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox-7- Posted October 13, 2023 Author Share Posted October 13, 2023 Il 10/10/2023 in 21:10 , Rashidi ha scritto: @Fox-7-Can we merge the Fluminense replication threads. I have just started one, there might be another l, we could merge all three with yours being the main thread. My goal is to see how far I can get replicating it for FM24. This way we have the discussion centred in your thread. It is a great honor for me to receive this degree of consideration from you @Rashidi. Unfortunately at the moment I can't play FM as much as I would like and dedicate the time and attention needed to test and fine-tune things. Furthermore, I see that you are already prepared for a replication on FM24, which I don't know if I will be able to do. For this reasons I believe that the main thread on Diniz's football should be yours, which you will most likely have the opportunity to keep constantly updated unlike mine, and with a depth of knowledge of FM that is certainly better than mine. Thanks also to all the users who have enriched the discussion in recent months 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashidi Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 Nah I dont want to take any credit from the work you initially did, you got things off to a great start. With positional play being such a big part of FM24, I am not even sure functional play can even work. My gut tells me its going to be a strikerless system so i can get the escadinhas going. I will merge our threads together, so I can keep this going. At least all the information will be current, and it will still be your thread :-) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashidi Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 So I've merged both threads to keep it centralised, with FM24 coming I thought it would be a better idea to collate threads that are a similar topic. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivosaurio Posted November 10, 2023 Share Posted November 10, 2023 hey, how have your systems fared since the update? i have found that the development on implementing positional play has really affected the way we play :/ i’m yet to tweak anything with the old system, but from watching a few matches, i can see that we play way more rigidly and not close enough to form short passing plays or counter press effectively. it’s funny, because i always thought that players getting in the same positions helped to this cause, but that seems to have been ironed out have you found a way to make it work? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craiigman Posted November 11, 2023 Share Posted November 11, 2023 Also this one here, although not as in depth: It’s been great to learn about the style, I’ve not yet tried to replicate it, but it’s very interesting Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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