Advice: Cannot beat teams in relegation zone

[Grunners]

I'm playing a multiplayer game with a friend. I'm more of a consistent tactician, he's more of a tinkerer, so between us most bases covered. What unites us is an inability, even when we're running away with the league, to beat teams at the bottom of the division. Anecdotally we both felt these games were _always_ banana peels, and so I started monitoring it. Even as a top four Premier League side, no matter how long a winning streak I'm on, _every time_ I play a side in the bottom three I struggle; a smattering of draws but usually I lose these games. I haven't won one since I started monitoring.

I'm becoming really frustrated with what's happening. I've tried tweaking tactics, bringing in fresh players, all to no avail. I feel like there's a complacency mechanic or something behind the scenes, and I haven't got a clue how to combat it. Obviously as with real life, being an FM manager means ups and downs, but losing yet again to a side that hasn't collected a point in eleven games is starting to take some of the fun out of it. I'm certain it's not chance; there's a game mechanic I'm being beaten by. On the flip side, I will not infrequently beat big clubs (Arsenal, Man City etc) by five goals. Feels like the same mechanic but flipped. Any advice?

[phd_angel]

I feel your pain. I think complacency is an overpowered feature in FM. To solve that, I may rotate my starting team with a couple of eager subs, make lots of warnings in press interviews and pre-match talk, shout like hell during the match, and change mentality more radically (from defense to attack and back, etc.). But nothing is guaranteed...

[santy001]

Limited information to work with when there's no tactics, or screenshots from matches etc. If its such a persistent issue then it seems like you're mismanaging your squad going into these games and indeed bringing about complacency. 

I use a formation that defends like a 5-2-3, switches to a 4-3-3 and eventually attacks as a 4-1-5. So for very aggressive games the average position tends to have my front line quite even in a line. I can make a quick assessment about 20 minutes into a game. Based on the average position, adjust the mentality. That would be the thing I'd suggest at least taking a look at in your games. 

This is from my match against 20th placed Sunderland, I got an early goal 4 minutes in so I wasn't paying too much attention as I was already winning.

However, you can clearly see the average position has my team way too far up the pitch. I got a second just after half time though and saw out a 2-1 win. 

A couple games later I had 19th placed Leicester, and I noticed things were following a similar trend so I dropped my mentality from Balanced to Defensive: 

It allowed Leicester to push up a bit more, my team were a little deeper. Not hugely, but having that extra 10-15 yards to work with is often times the difference maker. Especially with the best players. This game was a much more comfortable 8-1 win. 

Should the average position for the defensive line reach the point where its on the half way line that is an entirely negative scenario in my mind. It means you're pushing the opposition back so much they've got little hope other than a long ball out and turning it into a straight up sprint between their forward & your defender. 

[Mst82]

14 hours ago, santy001 said:

Limited information to work with when there's no tactics, or screenshots from matches etc. If its such a persistent issue then it seems like you're mismanaging your squad going into these games and indeed bringing about complacency. 

I use a formation that defends like a 5-2-3, switches to a 4-3-3 and eventually attacks as a 4-1-5. So for very aggressive games the average position tends to have my front line quite even in a line. I can make a quick assessment about 20 minutes into a game. Based on the average position, adjust the mentality. That would be the thing I'd suggest at least taking a look at in your games. 

This is from my match against 20th placed Sunderland, I got an early goal 4 minutes in so I wasn't paying too much attention as I was already winning.

However, you can clearly see the average position has my team way too far up the pitch. I got a second just after half time though and saw out a 2-1 win. 

A couple games later I had 19th placed Leicester, and I noticed things were following a similar trend so I dropped my mentality from Balanced to Defensive: 

It allowed Leicester to push up a bit more, my team were a little deeper. Not hugely, but having that extra 10-15 yards to work with is often times the difference maker. Especially with the best players. This game was a much more comfortable 8-1 win. 

Should the average position for the defensive line reach the point where its on the half way line that is an entirely negative scenario in my mind. It means you're pushing the opposition back so much they've got little hope other than a long ball out and turning it into a straight up sprint between their forward & your defender. 

You switched from balanced to defensive and won 8-1? How on earth does that work?

[santy001]

1 hour ago, Mst82 said:

You switched from balanced to defensive and won 8-1? How on earth does that work?

I'm far from the best person to explain it, but various things change based on your mentality. 

On Attacking Mentality:

On Defensive Mentality:

The instructions, Mid Block and Standard Defensive Line are the same. However, the point at which the team engages changes. The natural defensive line is augmented. By switching to Defensive I'm giving the opponent more space in their half to have possession. I'm also better mitigating that long ball over the top for two reasons. One my own defensive line is deeper, and secondly they're more likely to have a better/more sensible passing option available.

In any given situation, with the ball what is the worst thing you can do with it? You give it away carelessly that results in a goal. If a team is worse than yours, give them the ball. Let them maximise the number of worst possible instances. Let these inferior players make mistakes, let them push players forward to try and attack you and create space at the back. It's the best possible thing to do. So I went defensive and won 8-1. 

When you press a team relentlessly you're forcing them to keep 8/9/10 players back and defend in numbers. It restricts space and often times negates your own teams speed because there isn't enough room to open up the taps. More attacking mindsets can fall into this trap against weaker teams. 

[wazzaflow10]

23 hours ago, santy001 said:

Limited information to work with when there's no tactics, or screenshots from matches etc. If its such a persistent issue then it seems like you're mismanaging your squad going into these games and indeed bringing about complacency. 

I use a formation that defends like a 5-2-3, switches to a 4-3-3 and eventually attacks as a 4-1-5. So for very aggressive games the average position tends to have my front line quite even in a line. I can make a quick assessment about 20 minutes into a game. Based on the average position, adjust the mentality. That would be the thing I'd suggest at least taking a look at in your games. 

This is from my match against 20th placed Sunderland, I got an early goal 4 minutes in so I wasn't paying too much attention as I was already winning.

However, you can clearly see the average position has my team way too far up the pitch. I got a second just after half time though and saw out a 2-1 win. 

A couple games later I had 19th placed Leicester, and I noticed things were following a similar trend so I dropped my mentality from Balanced to Defensive: 

It allowed Leicester to push up a bit more, my team were a little deeper. Not hugely, but having that extra 10-15 yards to work with is often times the difference maker. Especially with the best players. This game was a much more comfortable 8-1 win. 

Should the average position for the defensive line reach the point where its on the half way line that is an entirely negative scenario in my mind. It means you're pushing the opposition back so much they've got little hope other than a long ball out and turning it into a straight up sprint between their forward & your defender. 

Do you mind posting your starting tactic? Just curious how you get this transformation.

The drop in mentality is such a counter intuitive thing but makes complete sense in the context of how the game has to be played. Brilliant work though.

[santy001]

There are too many variations to post and a lot of it is stuff I've borrowed from far more illustrious tactical minds than my own so I'm not too comfortable sharing it when I couldn't accurately give credit to the big influences behind it. It is by no way original on my behalf. 

In reality any back 4 with a DM in the centre will function more like a 5 in defence. In midfield there are a number of permutations. DM + 2 CM's with the right instructions, either play a wide front 3 and have the CM's making the narrow runs forward. Or you set them up to get wider & run into the wings. Use wide midfielders & then have the runs from midfield down the flanks and a narrow front 3. 3 DM's with 2 Segundo Volante's on attack and an AML/AMR.

 

[Mst82]

12 hours ago, santy001 said:

I'm far from the best person to explain it, but various things change based on your mentality. 

On Attacking Mentality:

On Defensive Mentality:

The instructions, Mid Block and Standard Defensive Line are the same. However, the point at which the team engages changes. The natural defensive line is augmented. By switching to Defensive I'm giving the opponent more space in their half to have possession. I'm also better mitigating that long ball over the top for two reasons. One my own defensive line is deeper, and secondly they're more likely to have a better/more sensible passing option available.

In any given situation, with the ball what is the worst thing you can do with it? You give it away carelessly that results in a goal. If a team is worse than yours, give them the ball. Let them maximise the number of worst possible instances. Let these inferior players make mistakes, let them push players forward to try and attack you and create space at the back. It's the best possible thing to do. So I went defensive and won 8-1. 

When you press a team relentlessly you're forcing them to keep 8/9/10 players back and defend in numbers. It restricts space and often times negates your own teams speed because there isn't enough room to open up the taps. More attacking mindsets can fall into this trap against weaker teams. 

I just tried it out, beat Bayern 2-0 and Frankfurt 4-1 🤷🏼‍♂️ 

[wazzaflow10]

7 hours ago, santy001 said:

There are too many variations to post and a lot of it is stuff I've borrowed from far more illustrious tactical minds than my own so I'm not too comfortable sharing it when I couldn't accurately give credit to the big influences behind it. It is by no way original on my behalf. 

In reality any back 4 with a DM in the centre will function more like a 5 in defence. In midfield there are a number of permutations. DM + 2 CM's with the right instructions, either play a wide front 3 and have the CM's making the narrow runs forward. Or you set them up to get wider & run into the wings. Use wide midfielders & then have the runs from midfield down the flanks and a narrow front 3. 3 DM's with 2 Segundo Volante's on attack and an AML/AMR.

 

fair enough thanks.

[Jack722]

I see the positive -> defensive advice passed around a lot for FM, but to me it doesn't really make any sense. From the point of view of the underdog, if the other team goes defensive and stops pressing me so high, i'm gonna have my FB's and CM's on defend staying back and just passing between each other, running down the clock until we get pressed - when we'd just clear it.

Personally, in these situations i always make sure to demand a win in the team talk. Not just a good performance, not wishing them luck - but a win. Any press question you get, also choose the option that puts most pressure on the players. 

• "Is the bad weather going to make it difficult to play?"
  • "No, my team is prepared for every scenario"
• "is it going to be hard playing without x player being injured?"
  • "No, the rest of my team can manage"
• "How important is it to get an early goal?"
  • "It's extremely important to start well"

From a tactics point of view, I either use positive or attacking. If i start with postiive but am drawing at half time, i'll switch to attacking as well as press higher. I also tend to push both my fullbacks up to attacking (depending on my tactic) and / or switch my defensive midfielder from defend to support. Think about it, if the other side are just parking the bus and putting 10/11 men behind the ball, you don't really need fullbacks and DM's staying back to stop a counter attack, your CB's should manage just fine. In attack with the extra numbers, your fullbacks can help overload the flanks and the DM can step up into postions outside the box unmarked to take a long shot.