Can you realistically re-create the new tactical craze 3-2-4-1/ "W M" Pep/Xavi/Arteta

[samrnpage]

Simple question - is the game advanced enough to recreate The new Pep style of tactic with Stones moving into the middle pivot, creating a 3-2-2-3?

This new (or re-creation of the 1920s WM) from Pep is starting to take world football by storm. We are seeing Pep pioneer it, Klopp, Arteta, Xavi all starting to do it now and it seems to be the new wave of tactics that will dominate football for a decade - Not since the original Pep Tikki Takka have we seen this level of trend in a new style of tactic for a long time. It is actually an adaptation of a very old tactic from the early 1900s called the WM tactic. 

The basics of it

1) You start with a back four and an attacking formation like 4-1-2-3.  
2) You then move a player from somewhere to the middle to create a box four in the middle and turns it into a back 3, with a 4 player box in midfield and overload up top. It looks something like this:



The box is created by the two CDMs and two CAMs, current teams are doing it by:

Man City - moves Stones to the Right CDM spot and spread out the LB/CB/CB as their back three
Arsenal - moves Zinchenko to the Left CDM spot, spreading the remaining RB/CB/CB as their back three
Liverpool - Started to move Trent to the RCDM spot and spread out the LB/CB/CB as their back three
Barcelona - They do it differently, they are dropping their LW Gavi to the Left CAM spot and push their LB up to LW - RB/CB/CB are the back three

3) Because of this, you always have men over in nearly every scenario  - Video below explains the rest
 

Man city and Arsenal are even using their GK as part of the play to get an extra player on either wing

So can you create this in FM or not?

Edited April 27, 2023 by samrnpage

[paracoolo]

3 hours ago, samrnpage said:

Simple question - is the game advanced enough to recreate The new Pep style of tactic with Stones moving into the middle pivot, creating a 3-2-2-3?

This new (or re-creation of the 1920s WM) from Pep is starting to take world football by storm. We are seeing Pep pioneer it, Klopp, Arteta, Xavi all starting to do it now and it seems to be the new wave of tactics that will dominate football for a decade - Not since the original Pep Tikki Takka have we seen this level of trend in a new style of tactic for a long time. It is actually an adaptation of a very old tactic from the early 1900s called the WM tactic. 

The basics of it

1) You start with a back four and an attacking formation like 4-1-2-3.  
2) You then move a player from somewhere to the middle to create a box four in the middle and turns it into a back 3, with a 4 player box in midfield and overload up top. It looks something like this:



The box is created by the two CDMs and two CAMs, current teams are doing it by:

Man City - moves Stones to the Right CDM spot and spread out the LB/CB/CB as their back three
Arsenal - moves Zinchenko to the Left CDM spot, spreading the remaining RB/CB/CB as their back three
Liverpool - Started to move Trent to the RCDM spot and spread out the LB/CB/CB as their back three
Barcelona - They do it differently, they are dropping their LW Gavi to the Left CAM spot and push their LB up to LW - RB/CB/CB are the back three

3) Because of this, you always have men over in nearly every scenario  - Video below explains the rest
 

Man city and Arsenal are even using their GK as part of the play to get an extra player on either wing

So can you create this in FM or not?

Yes you can, theres many ways to do it tho

[pedrosantos]

Not possible to replicate faithfuly. The simple 4141 / 433 from Pep's Barcelona was not also possible to make a real / faithful replication, because at the time FM did not have the player roles. But more than the player roles, it's about player and team dynamics (player behaviour with and without the ball / team with and without the ball), it's just an area that lacks development.

[_mxrky]

Simple answer is no. Wingers don’t stay high and wide nor does you have the fullback. becoming a third cb properly. Tactical creator is still 10 years behind tactical developments

[julle17]

I personally don't think it's possible to get it faithful to what Pep or Arteta do irl.
If the goal is to just get the shape though. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to achieve the right shape from a 3-4-2-1 or 3-4-3 formation

[The3points]

While I agree a really faithful replication won't work, you can easily make a "Walmart" version quite easily in a 4-3-3. The biggest issue is the back 3 as no role really makes a a symmetrical 3 at the back: you get a version that's a little bit wonky

[autohoratio]

The closest you can get it using an IWB, but I've found it doesn't behave quite right still, with the issues others have described being impossible to overcome.

I made a feature request last week for implementing the box midfield (it would've been nice to be left open for additional comments but SI staff already locked it as reviewed 😆)

 

[paracoolo]

3 hours ago, _mxrky said:

Simple answer is no. Wingers don’t stay high and wide nor does you have the fullback. becoming a third cb properly. Tactical creator is still 10 years behind tactical developments

that is false. Wingers stays wide and high and you can make a fb play as a 3rd cb I did it with my 1860 munchen save.

[paracoolo]

4 hours ago, autohoratio said:

The closest you can get it using an IWB, but I've found it doesn't behave quite right still, with the issues others have described being impossible to overcome.

I made a feature request last week for implementing the box midfield (it would've been nice to be left open for additional comments but SI staff already locked it as reviewed 😆)

 

Okay ! Time to do some variations now. Let's start!

1:  Man City's 3421 

This is its shape when in possession

 

I think it replicates well Guardiola's City ( 22/23)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2023 by paracoolo

[paracoolo]

2. Xavi's Barca

Now this one is a bit more difficult , Im trying Koundé as a IWB-D but I think that IWB-D goes a bit forward compared to FB-D and Baldé does not get high enough to form the 4 line behind the striker

So I changed Koundé to FB-D and put baldé in the WB strata

Now it looks good at the back , problem is Gavi as a IW-SU doesnt go narrow as much.

So I changed Gavi to AP-SU and now this is the shape:

 

3241!

 

 

 

 

 

[paracoolo]

My conclusion: 

Although I agree that it should be easier to replicate those sides, I think that there's a more efficient way of Replicating a 3-2-4-1.

You can either do it by making a pure 3421

or

This:

( Alternative)

 

 

[Lemon_Head]

4 hours ago, paracoolo said:

My conclusion: 

Although I agree that it should be easier to replicate those sides, I think that there's a more efficient way of Replicating a 3-2-4-1.

You can either do it by making a pure 3421

or

This:

( Alternative)

 

 

Can you show the Team Instructions and Player Instructions for the tactics? Are they all different or the same, just different formations? 

I also feel like with Pedri drifting too wide as an IW-S, you can train him with the trait to cut with the ball inside from the right so he can dribble in narrower when he has the ball and add the sit narrower PI on the position. I'm not sure if you already did all of that but lmk what you think.

[paracoolo]

4 hours ago, Lemon_Head said:

Can you show the Team Instructions and Player Instructions for the tactics? Are they all different or the same, just different formations? 

I also feel like with Pedri drifting too wide as an IW-S, you can train him with the trait to cut with the ball inside from the right so he can dribble in narrower when he has the ball and add the sit narrower PI on the position. I'm not sure if you already did all of that but lmk what you think.

CM-At: Roam From Position, Take More Risks

AP-AT: Roam From Position, Get Further Forward

FB-D: Dribble Less, Shoot Less Often , Sits Narrower

Iw-su: Tackle Harder,Sits Narrower, Roam From Position

WB-At: Dribble More, Stays Wider

 

[_mxrky]

12 hours ago, paracoolo said:

that is false. Wingers stays wide and high and you can make a fb play as a 3rd cb I did it with my 1860 munchen save.

The 3 atb is wonky and pushed towards one side and wingers stil narrow in the final third.

[The3points]

2 hours ago, _mxrky said:

The 3 atb is wonky and pushed towards one side and wingers stil narrow in the final third.

Yeah but wingers are supposed to cut in in the final third to make runs in behind etc. Anyway, a wide width stops this altogether

[Gunnersmoke]

I've managed to get somewhat close albeit in the attacking phase and not the defensive with a 3421 with the wing backs providing the width

[Halbraum]

On 28.04.2023 at 04:31, paracoolo said:

that is false. Wingers stays wide and high and you can make a fb play as a 3rd cb I did it with my 1860 munchen save.

No they don't. They only stay wide until the final third. So they don't stay HIGH and wide. Among the images you uploaded, there was only one screenshot that your players  were in advanced positions, and surprise! Wingers were in the half spaces.

[chucklehead]

Hi folks

I've wanted to create one of these 'advanced' formations / tactics for a while, but don't really have the know-how to do it, so this is really helpful, cheers. 

Quick question if you don't mind though: would I be right in thinking you need a pretty competitive team to pull this off? Not, for example, a 1st season in the prem team? 

[julle17]

1 hour ago, chucklehead said:

Hi folks

I've wanted to create one of these 'advanced' formations / tactics for a while, but don't really have the know-how to do it, so this is really helpful, cheers. 

Quick question if you don't mind though: would I be right in thinking you need a pretty competitive team to pull this off? Not, for example, a 1st season in the prem team? 

I don't see why you wouldn't be able to do it first season with any prem team. Obviously depends on what you expect to achieve. Should be able to create a tactic based on the ideas and do well with anyone i'd think honestly

[The3points]

On 30/04/2023 at 15:43, Halbraum said:

No they don't. They only stay wide until the final third. So they don't stay HIGH and wide. Among the images you uploaded, there was only one screenshot that your players  were in advanced positions, and surprise! Wingers were in the half spaces.

That screenshot was of Barcelona, where Gavi should be in the halfspace, and Dembele is in an appropriate position considering the ball is in the centre of the box. That screenshot isn't very illustrative of wingers in the final third

[Amarante]

What you need to remember is that formations in FM are your off the ball shape, you can then use roles to create a different on ball shape. 

So first you need to understand what is each players role when off the ball, what are their roles on the ball once you know those two things you can create a specific shape.

[_mxrky]

Been doing some more testing and imo this is the closest you can get to an arteta/pep way replication whilst getting good results (albeit i am on fm21). It mirrors the off the ball shape of a 442 which arteta and pep often use as their shape off the ball.

This is more based on pep tactics before he moved to 3 at the back system with stones in dm (although it can be tweaked to suit this). Wingers stay high (and mostly wide) although not as wide as in a true positional play tactic. Worth tweaking using a fb-d or fb -s with sit narrow/ hold positon to recreate the 3atb if you want a closer replication:

 

Results:

 

 

Striker stats (Haaland role):

 

[tk23]

7 hours ago, _mxrky said:

Been doing some more testing and imo this is the closest you can get to an arteta/pep way replication whilst getting good results (albeit i am on fm21). It mirrors the off the ball shape of a 442 which arteta and pep often use as their shape off the ball.

This is more based on pep tactics before he moved to 3 at the back system with stones in dm (although it can be tweaked to suit this). Wingers stay high (and mostly wide) although not as wide as in a true positional play tactic. Worth tweaking using a fb-d or fb -s with sit narrow/ hold positon to recreate the 3atb if you want a closer replication:

 

Results:

 

 

Striker stats (Haaland role):

 

What player instructions do you use? Gonna try it out on FM23!

[_mxrky]

11 hours ago, tk23 said:

What player instructions do you use? Gonna try it out on FM23!

P - attack - mark specific position - dcr

AMCR -  support - move into channels, roam from position, move into channels, take more risks, run wide with ball

Mez - attack - close down less, mark tighter, run wide with ball (would also add cross more often if i was on fm23)

WM - attack - close down less, mark tighter, stay wider, 

 

[_mxrky]

Just scored this beauty. 

 

[paracoolo]

GUYS! Got an update on the 3241 of Pep:

This was the official starting formation:

I dont know if you can see that well but Rodri is a LCM , Gundo is a cm and debruyne is RCM. Akanji is lb, dias is cb , stones is rcb and walker rb

so this could help for the 3-2-4-1 Shape.

[paracoolo]

went with this:

è

maybe for gundogan i'll use RPM with move into channels.. im not so sure.

its the same for grealish ( same for kdb too)

 

 

 

 

[paracoolo]

First 13 seconds this is what it looks like:

and afterwards i saw that rodri went too much wide as a cm-d so i decided to switch the formation to this:

by focusing play on the left, we see gundogan going to the left halfspace much more!

the only problem now is that the LB is too wide and the rb doesnt cut inside:

 

but now, it seems to work:

Edited May 12, 2023 by paracoolo

[paracoolo]

This is the result:

Now i will make a thread(post ) on Galtier's PSG Tactic! 

Edited May 12, 2023 by paracoolo

[ChrisKjf]

One way to do it could be to just play a 5-2-3, with retrained wingers as complete wingbacks on their wrong footed side. Obviously doesn't recreate the same off ball principles but the box teams mostly play a 4-4-2 off the ball anyway, not a 4-3-3.