Unashamed Save Scummer

[Oggimon]

So, after months sorting leagues, testing them, getting updates and making sure it all works, I finally began my main save, eager, as always, to drown thousands of hours into the game as I always do.

As the title says, I am unashamedly a save scummer in the way that I play this game in past installments. Over the many years playing this game in this way, I have noticed that overall, there are only a few things you can tweak that will change the outcome of the game.

I took lower division teams to glory (promotion really) but have always found that, no matter what, larger reputation = more wins, lower reputation = less wins. It isnt rocket science. I have seen some incredible things too (and this is why I was upset here at not being able to save scum, my first game with a lower Swedish team had my guys missing absolute sitters whereas the opposition had to simply get to my goal to score, it seems - so the mechanics and formula has not changed with the game). [Updated, played another game with the same Swedish team; they had 2 red cards and somehow, we still couldnt beat them, 94th minute they scored an equaliser despite being down to 9 men!! I mean, this doesnt happen that often in real life, and yet, Football Manager always has a way of the team that is MEANT to win the game, always winning the game].

Here is my analogy of why this game needs the ability = playing football manager is akin to playing Heroes of Might and Magic (pick any installment, they are the same). You go towards goal, and you a sprinkled with bad luck and some movement disability. They go towards goal, and the magic wand sprinkles them with the greatest of luck. They kick the ball falls somewhere to one of their players and he takes a shot and scores what would be the goal of the year - every game nearly. You go in front of goal, shoot at point blank range, and someone shoot AT the keeper!!!! I mean, for years I knew the game cheats! So, my justification for save scumming was that IF the game can cheat, so can I?

So, my question (and thus rant) is, instead of save scumming (because why allow people to play the way THEY want when you want to dictate the way YOU want the game played), what other ways do you minimise the incredible way in which the computer wins games?

Thanks

Disgruntled long-time fan

Edited April 24, 2023 by Oggimon

[HUNT3R]

No issues with you save scumming. It's your game. You play it however you want to. As long as you're getting some enjoyment out of it - great. This however:

22 minutes ago, Oggimon said:

I mean, for years I knew the game cheats!

The game doesn't cheat. It's the same ME for both human and AI. It CANNOT distinguish between human and AI. It's there to be a giant calculator, which is a disservice for something that's 2-3 million lines of code, but it makes it easier to understand.

If the opposition has a better conversion rate than you, you can do something about it. This isn't to boast, because I'm not even the best, but it does show that I'm overachieving a bit - I was predicted to finish 5th as well.

 

This season, I've gone with a very risky way of playing (and it shows in the xGA) but it is paying off for now:

 

Compare your stats. I know I have taken general stats, so it will be against the best teams, but also the worst. There may be a trend. You might be underperforming against the better teams or it might be against the worst teams. Or it may be a specific player who isn't converting consistently enough. Or your tactic isn't producing chances that are good enough and/or creating chances that are blocked, which xG doesn't take into account.

All I'm saying is that there isn't a magical cheat and that if you dig enough, you can find the root of the issue and that's the start toward fixing it.

[Lord Rowell]

50 minutes ago, Oggimon said:

 You go in front of goal, shoot at point blank range, and someone shoot AT the keeper!!!! I mean, for years I knew the game cheats! So, my justification for save scumming was that IF the game can cheat, so can I?

Direct question for you.

Why would SI want to make a game that cheats, and hence alienates their customer base?

What possible motive could they have for this?

Over to you.

[Oggimon]

Okay, i was using hyperbole with the word 'cheating'. I always had games where I would hit the post 5 times and the opposition 2-3 times yet still manages to beat me.

Is there a way to save scum now, or once you are in the match, you have to wait it out? I am trying different things but the outcome of the game is always the same. 

Any ideas?

[Oggimon]

58 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

No issues with you save scumming. It's your game. You play it however you want to. As long as you're getting some enjoyment out of it - great. This however:

The game doesn't cheat. It's the same ME for both human and AI. It CANNOT distinguish between human and AI. It's there to be a giant calculator, which is a disservice for something that's 2-3 million lines of code, but it makes it easier to understand.

If the opposition has a better conversion rate than you, you can do something about it. This isn't to boast, because I'm not even the best, but it does show that I'm overachieving a bit - I was predicted to finish 5th as well.

 

This season, I've gone with a very risky way of playing (and it shows in the xGA) but it is paying off for now:

 

Compare your stats. I know I have taken general stats, so it will be against the best teams, but also the worst. There may be a trend. You might be underperforming against the better teams or it might be against the worst teams. Or it may be a specific player who isn't converting consistently enough. Or your tactic isn't producing chances that are good enough and/or creating chances that are blocked, which xG doesn't take into account.

All I'm saying is that there isn't a magical cheat and that if you dig enough, you can find the root of the issue and that's the start toward fixing it.

What tactics are you using and how on earth did you manage to get a smaller league side to the top? I am failing at the simplest of tasks at the moment.

Mind you, I havent updated my game since 2017.

Thanks

[HUNT3R]

4 minutes ago, Oggimon said:

Is there a way to save scum now, or once you are in the match, you have to wait it out? I am trying different things but the outcome of the game is always the same. 

All that points to is the changes you're making aren't great. That's not the end of the world. You can always go to the tactics forum, provide as much detail as you can and there are plenty of great users who can help advise you, based on what you've given them.

4 minutes ago, Oggimon said:

What tactics are you using and how on earth did you manage to get a smaller league side to the top? I am failing at the simplest of tasks at the moment.

I use many different tactics. At this point, and I'm in the 2030s, I have moved to different clubs (starting at the bottom) and have based the tactics on the team I have and the situation we're in. Referring to the earlier comment, I've turned around a lot of matches I was losing initially. I must concede, I have had the opposite happen too.  My decisions are more often than not, good ones, but my point is, you are able to influence matches. Maybe even more than you think.

The important part of this is to get out of the thought tunnel of 'it's rigged against me', but treat it as something within your control. You may not always succeed, but we're never going to be perfect. It's a process to learn to analyse matches (especially in real time) and then applying the 'correct' changes to turn things around. To tell you the truth, I am very into analysis and watching what's unfolding in real time. I don't get it right every time. That's part of the game.

[Oggimon]

52 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

All that points to is the changes you're making aren't great. That's not the end of the world. You can always go to the tactics forum, provide as much detail as you can and there are plenty of great users who can help advise you, based on what you've given them.

I use many different tactics. At this point, and I'm in the 2030s, I have moved to different clubs (starting at the bottom) and have based the tactics on the team I have and the situation we're in. Referring to the earlier comment, I've turned around a lot of matches I was losing initially. I must concede, I have had the opposite happen too.  My decisions are more often than not, good ones, but my point is, you are able to influence matches. Maybe even more than you think.

The important part of this is to get out of the thought tunnel of 'it's rigged against me', but treat it as something within your control. You may not always succeed, but we're never going to be perfect. It's a process to learn to analyse matches (especially in real time) and then applying the 'correct' changes to turn things around. To tell you the truth, I am very into analysis and watching what's unfolding in real time. I don't get it right every time. That's part of the game.

the X tables are new to me. Any indicators of how they are to be analysed?

And in terms of lower league football, any suggestions as to the tactics that could work. I have one decent midfielder and 1 striker, everything else is average and I have no money to offer any contracts.

I also used to play by having 5-15 managers in one save, but without save scuming there is no way I can play like that anymore. Something I have to come to terms with but whatever.

[Lord Rowell]

I agree with @HUNT3R start by posting your tactic on the tactics forum, just say you're struggling to get results (many do, its a difficult game with a learning curve even for those with experience) and let the community give you some pointers.

Just do one thing at a time though, data analysis etc can probably wait for now.

Also, LLM is tough. Don't be hard on yourself and if you're trying to improve your use of tactics, not a good place to start as lower ability footballers will make mistakes, giving you the wrong impression of your tactics.

Whenever a new FM comes out, with some changes to the ME, I always start with a big club, top players, so I can get a more reliable feel of the ME. After that, I do whatever I fancy next which can be anything (I'm on a retro-database at the moment!)

Edited April 24, 2023 by Lord Rowell

[phd_angel]

Yes, FM is predictable in the sense that is an incremental franchise. It basically is a database platform with annual updates and minor feature upgrades (marketed as "revolutionary"...).

I'd say most fanatic gamers here find FM to be too easy. I have no idea if they cheat but if you coach Real Madrid or Chelsea your chances are pretty good.

I rarely scum save (last time was with a red card into 10 seconds of a trivial match, which I found quite unrealistic).

Despite being frustrated with FM sometimes, I feel much better never scum saving the game (unless you are doing some intentional 'test and learn').

Anyhow, as Buddha once said, "Keep Calm and Carry On".

 

[SergeiG]

I dont know for sure if the game "cheats" but I do know that we got selective memories when it comes to remembering good and bad stuff.

So, for every shot you take you mostly remember all the great or bad shots straight to the keeper's hands.

In the last version of FM I remember managing Manchester United and I was dominating the league with 15 or so wins in a row and when I played Arsenal they were winning 2-0 and in the last 15 minutes or so I subbed Ronaldo for Greenwood and he scored 3 goals and won the game for me in the 95th minute so often times it happens the other way too.

[gunnerfan]

Am I correct in assuming that “save scumming” denotes quitting a game in which something disagreeable has occurred without saving, and then playing again?

[Jonthedon26]

14 hours ago, gunnerfan said:

Am I correct in assuming that “save scumming” denotes quitting a game in which something disagreeable has occurred without saving, and then playing again?

Yes

[Ngoc]

The game doesn’t cheat it’s percentage of chance of winning you can tweak stuff and modify strategy it raise your chance but will never be 100% and in a roll of dice even if you are 80% winning you can still lose 

 

If you save and reload and are patient enough you can win all matches if the si cheated that would be impossible 

[CoffeeFueledCurmudgeon]

On 24/04/2023 at 20:56, Oggimon said:

Okay, i was using hyperbole with the word 'cheating'. I always had games where I would hit the post 5 times and the opposition 2-3 times yet still manages to beat me.

Is there a way to save scum now, or once you are in the match, you have to wait it out? I am trying different things but the outcome of the game is always the same. 

Any ideas?

Recall several teams hitting the post several times a game in the last season alone and losing games with 70%+ possession, camped in the opposition half, raining down shots and crosses and STILL losing the game, either by the odd goal, or sometimes losing 2-0 when the opposition scored from their two shots on goal.

Looking at this weekend, Forest ran Liverpool close despite being dominated, and scored both goals from deflections. Had the game finished 2-2 Liverpool would have felt robbed, but you'd be amazed how often a team doesn't win through sheer luck or misfortune.

[Mike J]

If you're constantly save scumming there's a pretty good chance you're not really learning how to play the game properly, so any judgement about whether the game's "cheating" or not is going to be suspect. If you approach the game with the assumption the AI is cheating, you're not going to improve. So the best way to "minimise the incredible way in which the computer wins games" is to learn from each game, win or lose, and try to apply that to your subsequent matches. You also need to be aware that freak results happen in football all the time and you need to resist the urge to blame them on the AI being a cheater.

[iAlwaysWin]

Winning and Losing has that butterfly effect, everytime you reset the game because your not happy with a loss has effect on future games good and bad. Just accept your losses and move on and good things will happen regardless as long as your team is actually good and your competent enough to get the best out of them.

[gunnerfan]

8 hours ago, iAlwaysWin said:

Winning and Losing has that butterfly effect, everytime you reset the game because your not happy with a loss has effect on future games good and bad. Just accept your losses and move on and good things will happen regardless as long as your team is actually good and your competent enough to get the best out of them.

Can you explain this? If you close the game without saving, how can that have an effect on future matches?

[eXistenZ]

I find due to the chaos in this edition, which has been multiplied to earlier  years (or the dicerolls have a higher impact), its a lot harder to dissect you tactic and to see where it goes wrong. I personally dont believe you can test a tactic by going on holiday or even playing a season. as said above, momentum (and morale) has such a big impact. Id say the best way to test a tactic is playing the same match over and over again. But it looks like this year playing the same match outcomes can be extremely wide in scope.  Match 1 you produce nothing, match 2 you win 5-0, match 3 you lose 0-3. all with the same tactic... And sometimes you dont even get a single hightlight (or they are all for the opposition), which makes it even harder to dissect issues.

 

 

Personally im on a break of FM myself. After a few rough careers that ended because there was no joy in it anymore and felt stuck (board stops you, finances in a small league,..) I had a new career that was going really well, a tactic that produced good football. And then the season turned over. kept the most important players (two who had most assists, my topscorer, my goalie, main defender), got rid of the mediocre players. Got a season preview of 2nd. Good results in the friendlies. And you guessed it. Nothing of last season was working anyore and no proper indication where it went wrong....

 

is it the tactic? is it the new players? is it bad luck? is it the game being a d1ck? all possible and very difficult to analyze

 

 

[jeru]

I think the thing here is that this year more than ever you get hit with the one shot at goal one goal syndrome more than ever, if anyone can post a single Game from a top 5 league this year where I see a team drop points from a team with a single shot then I would be impressed.

It has been said a million times that the ME can’t distinguish between AI and the human which I believe but what isnt commented on enough Is how some of the outside of the ME stuff that feeds into the ME ONLY affects the human player NOT the AI. 
 

I believe that the morale module acts as a balancing algorithm, complacency acts as a balancing mechanism, team cohesion only affects the user, things like this feed into the ME making it not an equal experience. This is proved by an earlier edition in beta having bug where the human player had too much of a boost going into the match. That could only be possible if the code exists to do specific things to the human player and not the AI. So all the posts on the ME is the same are correct but what they all fail to mention is the outside of the ME is not equal. 

[Mst82]

7 hours ago, eXistenZ said:

I find due to the chaos in this edition, which has been multiplied to earlier  years (or the dicerolls have a higher impact), its a lot harder to dissect you tactic and to see where it goes wrong. I personally dont believe you can test a tactic by going on holiday or even playing a season. as said above, momentum (and morale) has such a big impact. Id say the best way to test a tactic is playing the same match over and over again. But it looks like this year playing the same match outcomes can be extremely wide in scope.  Match 1 you produce nothing, match 2 you win 5-0, match 3 you lose 0-3. all with the same tactic... And sometimes you dont even get a single hightlight (or they are all for the opposition), which makes it even harder to dissect issues.

 

 

Personally im on a break of FM myself. After a few rough careers that ended because there was no joy in it anymore and felt stuck (board stops you, finances in a small league,..) I had a new career that was going really well, a tactic that produced good football. And then the season turned over. kept the most important players (two who had most assists, my topscorer, my goalie, main defender), got rid of the mediocre players. Got a season preview of 2nd. Good results in the friendlies. And you guessed it. Nothing of last season was working anyore and no proper indication where it went wrong....

 

is it the tactic? is it the new players? is it bad luck? is it the game being a d1ck? all possible and very difficult to analyze

 

 

I watch literally every game in my save in full. Reason being, I like to enjoy the journey, rather than watching the odd highlight and going on holiday. The save takes longer and you’re not 10 years into the future in an instant.

Anyway, the point I wanted to make is, by watching every game I can clearly see where my tactic is not suitable or requires tweaking, depending on the oppositions approach.

I recently posted in another thread how I finally managed to get the better of Bayern in my Dortmund save, altering my approach to counteract theirs. I knew what I had to do, I just wasn’t aware that pressing worked the way it does in FM23 - weirdly I’ve won loads without even knowing this.

So in my opinion, by watching every game (I know it’s not for everyone) I can see exactly where my tactics don’t work, most of the time it does, but occasionally you have to alter in game to combat oppo’s strengths or exploit their weaknesses.

Game management is hugely exaggerated in FM23 too, so you also need to be good at closing out games, particularly in the last 20 minutes or so.

My advice would be pay more attention and enjoy the journey, rather than wanting too much too soon.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Mst82

[Wavelberry]

7 hours ago, eXistenZ said:

I find due to the chaos in this edition, which has been multiplied to earlier  years (or the dicerolls have a higher impact), its a lot harder to dissect you tactic and to see where it goes wrong. I personally dont believe you can test a tactic by going on holiday or even playing a season. as said above, momentum (and morale) has such a big impact. Id say the best way to test a tactic is playing the same match over and over again. But it looks like this year playing the same match outcomes can be extremely wide in scope.  Match 1 you produce nothing, match 2 you win 5-0, match 3 you lose 0-3. all with the same tactic... And sometimes you dont even get a single hightlight (or they are all for the opposition), which makes it even harder to dissect issues.

 

 

Personally im on a break of FM myself. After a few rough careers that ended because there was no joy in it anymore and felt stuck (board stops you, finances in a small league,..) I had a new career that was going really well, a tactic that produced good football. And then the season turned over. kept the most important players (two who had most assists, my topscorer, my goalie, main defender), got rid of the mediocre players. Got a season preview of 2nd. Good results in the friendlies. And you guessed it. Nothing of last season was working anyore and no proper indication where it went wrong....

 

is it the tactic? is it the new players? is it bad luck? is it the game being a d1ck? all possible and very difficult to analyze

 

 

While I agree that form and momentum and dynamics can seriously affect what your tactic looks like in the ME you can still see if a tactic is good via the quick match engine with your U21s/U18s etc. If that team is playing your tactic, winning well and beating teams regularly your tactic, at its core, is good. 

[eXistenZ]

57 minutes ago, Mst82 said:

I watch literally every game in my save in full. Reason being, I like to enjoy the journey, rather than watching the odd highlight and going on holiday. The save takes longer and you’re not 10 years into the future in an instant.

Anyway, the point I wanted to make is, by watching every game I can clearly see where my tactic is not suitable or requires tweaking, depending on the oppositions approach.

some of us have a daytime job and stuff to do around the house so can't afford to spend one hour/match

 

55 minutes ago, Wavelberry said:

While I agree that form and momentum and dynamics can seriously affect what your tactic looks like in the ME you can still see if a tactic is good via the quick match engine with your U21s/U18s etc. If that team is playing your tactic, winning well and beating teams regularly your tactic, at its core, is good. 

The AI is so bad at developping youngsters that a few years in you're just beating them on quality of players rather than quality of tactic

[Mst82]

12 minutes ago, eXistenZ said:

some of us have a daytime job and stuff to do around the house so can't afford to spend one hour/match

Yeah I have neither, I just sit in a dark cupboard playing FM 24/7

[SergeiG]

6 hours ago, Mst82 said:

I watch literally every game in my save in full. Reason being, I like to enjoy the journey, rather than watching the odd highlight and going on holiday. The save takes longer and you’re not 10 years into the future in an instant.

Anyway, the point I wanted to make is, by watching every game I can clearly see where my tactic is not suitable or requires tweaking, depending on the oppositions approach.

I recently posted in another thread how I finally managed to get the better of Bayern in my Dortmund save, altering my approach to counteract theirs. I knew what I had to do, I just wasn’t aware that pressing worked the way it does in FM23 - weirdly I’ve won loads without even knowing this.

So in my opinion, by watching every game (I know it’s not for everyone) I can see exactly where my tactics don’t work, most of the time it does, but occasionally you have to alter in game to combat oppo’s strengths or exploit their weaknesses.

Game management is hugely exaggerated in FM23 too, so you also need to be good at closing out games, particularly in the last 20 minutes or so.

My advice would be pay more attention and enjoy the journey, rather than wanting too much too soon.

Dude, I am unemployed and even I aint got no time for that.

[Mst82]

12 minutes ago, SergeiG said:

Dude, I am unemployed and even I aint got no time for that.

 

[Daniel Evensen]

On 24/04/2023 at 15:58, Oggimon said:

What tactics are you using and how on earth did you manage to get a smaller league side to the top? I am failing at the simplest of tasks at the moment.

If you're struggling, you might want to check out one of the Knap tactics.

[Brother Ben]

On 01/05/2023 at 08:50, Mst82 said:

Yeah I have neither, I just sit in a dark cupboard playing FM 24/7

You know there's gotta be someone on this forum that this is true of  

(me given half a chance!)

[Mst82]

1 hour ago, Brother Ben said:

You know there's gotta be someone on this forum that this is true of  

(me given half a chance!)

It’s the dream brother!

[Pompeyboyz]

I would ask, if you are save scumming, where is the save point?  Is it the day of the match? Do you make any changes from the last try?

There are so many variables at work in this game and the further out from a matchday you return from the more chances of things changing.