How to soak up pressure and hit a team on the counter as an underdog? [UPDATED for FM24]

ultrAslan · April 21, 2023

Hello everyone,

I'm playng FM a while now and enjoying this game very much. However, I often struggle against high-pressing teams who dominate possession and put a lot of pressure on my players. I was wondering if any of the experienced managers out there have some tips on how to soak up this pressure and hit them on the counter.

Specifically, I'd like to know:

What formation and tactics do you use when facing a high-pressing team as an underdog?
How do you set up your team defensively to minimize the space and time for the opposition's attackers? adjustment on the team instructions? or other roles and duties? Mentality change?
How do you transition from defense to attack quickly and efficiently to exploit the gaps left by the high-pressing team?
What are some common mistakes that inexperienced managers make when facing a high-pressing team, and how can I avoid them?

So for example in my save I am managing Galatasaray and in the knockout fase Im playing against Manchester City.
They are a high pressing team so I want to soak the pressure and hit them on the counter.

I put some photos of my team and instructions , I have no PI's only for my playmaker to play a directer pass.
My tactic is working well against similar opponents or opponents that are slightly better then me, but this is the big test. I dont have any other formations with 5 defenders or 3-5-2.

My tactic:

Spoiler

Scout report of Man City:

Spoiler

Primary tactic is working well, but didnt had the big test against a strong opponent:

Spoiler

Edited February 7 by ultrAslan

Cloud9 · April 23, 2023

On 21/04/2023 at 16:22, ultrAslan said:

Hello everyone,

I'm playng FM a while now and enjoying this game very much. However, I often struggle against high-pressing teams who dominate possession and put a lot of pressure on my players. I was wondering if any of the experienced managers out there have some tips on how to soak up this pressure and hit them on the counter.

Specifically, I'd like to know:

What formation and tactics do you use when facing a high-pressing team as an underdog?
How do you set up your team defensively to minimize the space and time for the opposition's attackers? adjustment on the team instructions? or other roles and duties? Mentality change?
How do you transition from defense to attack quickly and efficiently to exploit the gaps left by the high-pressing team?
What are some common mistakes that inexperienced managers make when facing a high-pressing team, and how can I avoid them?

So for example in my save I am managing Galatasaray and in the knockout fase Im playing against Manchester City.
They are a high pressing team so I want to soak the pressure and hit them on the counter.

I put some photos of my team and instructions , I have no PI's only for my playmaker to play a directer pass.
My tactic is working well against similar opponents or opponents that are slightly better then me, but this is the big test. I dont have any other formations with 5 defenders or 3-5-2.

Haaland has an injury so against all odds I have chance to win I think haha.

I'd recommend crafting a totally new tactic for it.

Basically the only two things that you must have are "pass into space" and "counter" if you want to play on the counter.

I'd recommend starting as a midblock/mid defensive line as a starting point. Everything else is workable to how you want to play. More direct passing and a high tempo can be useful as well. If you have quick players, play wider. "Counter press" should be left off, it'll see your players getting beaten. Same goes for "tackle harder" Flick both on for periods of the match where you have the momentum. Mentality is a choose your own adventure, but you can counter w/ a defensive or positive mentality regardless of it feeling counterintuitive. Play around with the passing meters to get your best players to pass it direct and your technical potatoes to pass it short. This way you'll launch counterattacks effectively and waste precious possession less. Don't try to play out from the back unless you want to suffer.

Put the players on attack duty that you want to surge forward for the counter attack. AF/TF are a superb for counterattacking and I'd recommend a striker partnership for such an approach. 4-4-2, asymmetrical 4-3-3 and a 5 at the back system are all excellent options in my experience. Pacey wingers(a/s) can work very well as well. Get a defensive line that can actually defend.

Side note: Zaniolo is a superstar IF(A), but he'll struggle as an IW(s). They've given him terrible passing and decision making so you really just want him looking to score for himself. IW Get involved in the buildup play which is exactly where you don't want Zaniolo to be

Edited April 23, 2023 by Cloud9

ultrAslan · April 23, 2023

13 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

I'd recommend crafting a totally new tactic for it.

Basically the only two things that you must have are "pass into space" and "counter" if you want to play on the counter.

I'd recommend starting as a midblock/mid defensive line as a starting point. Everything else is workable to how you want to play. More direct passing and a high tempo can be useful as well. If you have quick players, play wider. "Counter press" should be left off, it'll see your players getting beaten. Same goes for "tackle harder" Flick both on for periods of the match where you have the momentum. Mentality is a choose your own adventure, but you can counter w/ a defensive or positive mentality regardless of it feeling counterintuitive. Play around with the passing meters to get your best players to pass it direct and your technical potatoes to pass it short. This way you'll launch counterattacks effectively and waste precious possession less. Don't try to play out from the back unless you want to suffer.

Put the players on attack duty that you want to surge forward for the counter attack. AF/TF are a superb for counterattacking and I'd recommend a striker partnership for such an approach. 4-4-2, asymmetrical 4-3-3 and a 5 at the back system are all excellent options in my experience. Pacey wingers(a/s) can work very well as well. Get a defensive line that can actually defend.

Thank you for taking time to comment on this thread. I thought also for a similar approach, but then I saw that the wing backs of Man City has over 15 acceleration. Walker has 18 for acceleration. How would this help me when they have faster back players. I was thinking of lowering the tempo and keeping the ball and slowly move my players to the final third. How would another fomation help me better then a 4-3-3 DM?

13 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Side note: Zaniolo is a superstar IF(A), but he'll struggle as an IW(s). They've given him terrible passing and decision making so you really just want him looking to score for himself. IW Get involved in the buildup play which is exactly where you don't want Zaniolo to be

Yes, I tried to play with two IF(A), but they where isolated and was hard to link up with my middfield. So I needed to spare one of the wingers to help te build-up play. My other IF has an acceleration of 17 so I wanted him to run behind the defenders. Zaniolo is performing well as a inverted winger, but maybe you are right to play fully on his potential as an IF.

Cloud9 · April 23, 2023

40 minutes ago, ultrAslan said:

Thank you for taking time to comment on this thread. I thought also for a similar approach, but then I saw that the wing backs of Man City has over 15 acceleration. Walker has 18 for acceleration. How would this help me when they have faster back players. I was thinking of lowering the tempo and keeping the ball and slowly move my players to the final third. How would another fomation help me better then a 4-3-3 DM?

Yes, I tried to play with two IF(A), but they where isolated and was hard to link up with my middfield. So I needed to spare one of the wingers to help te build-up play. My other IF has an acceleration of 17 so I wanted him to run behind the defenders. Zaniolo is performing well as a inverted winger, but maybe you are right to play fully on his potential as an IF.

I would attack the opposite side to where Walker is. Trying to outplay City w/ low tempo and keeping the ball will only work if you've got one of the best teams in the world. You want to be defensively compact and transition very quickly/directly to hit on the counter attack against a much better side.

They're going to out XG you so you're trying to weather the storm and win the game in moments.

On the IF(a) situation, if you play two you really need a facilitating forward in the 9 position. Not crazy about them for counter attacking football, I think the AF does what you want better (Sit on the shoulder of defenders and run in behind). They also provide a defensive weakness on their side.

If you're trying to prepare for a specific game that's happening now-ish and you haven't trained the players/recruited players for the tactic, it's going to be impossible for them to be familiar with it in time. In that case you'd be better off playing a less aggressive version of your current tactic against city since at least the players will be comfortable. If you've got a few months before the game, they might be able to gain enough familiarity for it to be worth it. Either way it's something you should have them prepared to do for future occasions like this :thup:

Edited April 23, 2023 by Cloud9

ultrAslan · April 23, 2023

4 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

I would attack the opposite side to where Walker is. Trying to outplay City w/ low tempo and keeping the ball will only work if you've got one of the best teams in the world. You want to be defensively compact and transition very quickly/directly to hit on the counter attack against a much better side.

They're going to out XG you so you're trying to weather the storm and win the game in moments.

On the IF(a) situation, if you play two you really need a facilitating forward in the 9 position. Not crazy about them for counter attacking football, I think the AF does what you want better (Sit on the shoulder of defenders and run in behind). They also provide a defensive weakness on their side.

It's true what you say, but if I play with a high tempo and direct, won't I give the ball back to the opponent quickly and lose possession? If we were playing a mid-block, how would you set up the pressin intensity? Would a short pass and standard tempo work well to counter? It's true what you say about the False 9, but I'm a fan of the Advanced Forward.

4 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

If you're trying to prepare for a specific game that's happening now-ish and you haven't trained the players/recruited players for the tactic, it's going to be impossible for them to be familiar with it in time. In that case you'd be better off playing a less aggressive version of your current tactic against city since at least the players will be comfortable. If you've got a few months before the game, they might be able to gain enough familiarity for it to be worth it. Either way it's something you should have them prepared to do for future occasions like this

New season, new opportunities. So I have created a new tactic to counter big opponents with counter attacks. Below you can see the formation and the team instructions:

Spoiler

I was able to test it right away in Europe against AC Milan and my goal came from a direct pass behind the defenders. I still need to test it more to see if it really works. What roles would you give the back-players? fullbacks? To be defensively stronger, would you change them to full-backs, even though in my primary formation they play as wing-backs? If I were to switch to a counter formation, the fullbacks wouldn't be individually trained for that position and I would be penalized for the tactical familiarity. I also noticed that in the last 15 minutes, the opponent was completely exhausted and we were still in good condition. How would you adjust to take advantage of that?"

Spoiler

Edited April 24, 2023 by ultrAslan

The3points · April 24, 2023

1 hour ago, ultrAslan said:

It's true what you say, but if I play with a high tempo and direct, won't I give the ball back to the opponent quickly and lose possession?

Yes, but if you keep the ball, they will press you into oblivion and if your players cannot handle that, they will capitulate. Besides, your goal was to soak up pressure and hit on the counter. Low tempo is the complete opposite to that. Really, the focus in big games is neutralizing threats and not leaving holes to expose. I think the new tactic leaves many gaps for the opposition to exploit as you have many players getting forward. In addition to the front 5, you've got 2 wingbacks flying up the pitch, and a DM who's mentality is far from defensive.

The first change I'd make for big games would be to change the WBs to FBs, just for more control and solidity. In really massive games, like against City, I'd also swap a CM for something like BWM or CM-D, something conservative to make a double pivot.

If you want to keep the roles the same, I'd add some man-marking, something like winger on fullback or AP on the pivot. That way you stifle their threat and keep you identity a bit

Halbraum · April 24, 2023

On 22.04.2023 at 02:22, ultrAslan said:

What formation and tactics do you use when facing a high-pressing team as an underdog?

4-3-3 is a pretty balanced and versatile formation. You don't need to change your formation if the 4-3-3 is the most suitable formation for you squad.

On 22.04.2023 at 02:22, ultrAslan said:

How do you set up your team defensively to minimize the space and time for the opposition's attackers? adjustment on the team instructions? or other roles and duties? Mentality change?

Being deep and vertically compact are main ways to deny space to opponents. This can be done by either choosing lower mentalities or low risk TIs such as deep defensive line, low press, stay on feet etc.

I'd avoid to use overlapping/underlapping role combinations since your transitions will be much quicker and less proggessive. For example, FBsu+Wat is better than WBat+IWsu in this case imo. Roaming roles might be detrimental to direct attacking too. Also, having one advanced player who hold up ball to wait for support after receiving a long ball is great.

@Cloud9 gave great advices, however i have to disagree on the "Pass into space". Think about the roles that are more suitable for the direct attacking such as TF, Wingers etc. None of them have "Take more risks" PI. But most of the short-passing style roles have it (F9, AP, IFsu...). Even though Pass Into Space is a decent choice for lower mentalities, more direct passing is already a high-risk TI, so combining it with risky passes makes harder to keep possession effectively.

All these advices are 20% of beating the City, the rest 80% is luck :lol: So good luck @ultrAslan

Cloud9 · April 24, 2023

7 hours ago, ultrAslan said:

It's true what you say, but if I play with a high tempo and direct, won't I give the ball back to the opponent quickly and lose possession? If we were playing a mid-block, how would you set up the pressin intensity? Would a short pass and standard tempo work well to counter? It's true what you say about the False 9, but I'm a fan of the Advanced Forward.

New season, new opportunities. So I have created a new tactic to counter big opponents with counter attacks. Below you can see the formation and the team instructions:

Reveal hidden contents

I was able to test it right away in Europe against AC Milan and my goal came from a direct pass behind the defenders. I still need to test it more to see if it really works. What roles would you give the back-players? fullbacks? To be defensively stronger, would you change them to full-backs, even though in my primary formation they play as wing-backs? If I were to switch to a counter formation, the fullbacks wouldn't be individually trained for that position and I would be penalized for the tactical familiarity. I also noticed that in the last 15 minutes, the opponent was completely exhausted and we were still in good condition. How would you adjust to take advantage of that?"

Reveal hidden contents

On high tempo/directness, you will turn over the ball more. However, you put your quick attacking players in position to break consistency and give them a chance to score. Against a good side, playing it safe once you win the ball back usually means you just aren't creating chances. Passing the ball very directly into space when the ball is won back lets the width your playing on and attacking players pace shine. Being the underdog plays into your hands here, as you know the opposition will be taking the game to you, and be leaving space behind their defensive line.

Lower tempo and directness settings (a more fluid counterattack) I'd recommend against teams you're more evenly matched against. Again the PI passing meters (so some play it short/some play it long) is a great help in properly launching the counters and not turning over the ball so much. Keep in mind the mentality will also impact how your team moves the ball forward.

Usually with a back 4 in a counter attacking system I like to have one defensively minded fullback and one I give a little more license to get forward. FB(s) is super role I like to use for the defensive one and WB(s) or FB(A) to the other. You can ask the fullbacks to run wide with the ball if you'd like them to operate a bit more like wingbacks (works better than telling them to stay wide imo). For the CB pairing I think a BPD + CB will give you a good combination. You could play with two BPD as well but I prefer to have one old fashioned center back who can bully the opposition for the pair.

On opposition tiredness: They'll use up a lot of energy trying to break you down.

You can do some of the following: 1. up the lines and play higher up the pitch 2. turn counter press on 3. You could try reducing the directness of passing in these moments as well, where you want to dominate the game a bit more. There are lots of little tweaks you can do depending on your squad, I would experiment with what works for you. Having a deep squad can be super here, where you can bring on more attacking minded players for different situations.

Watch the momentum of the match for good moments to flick counter press on-- at the end of the halves when the opposition is tired can be a great time.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Cloud9

Cloud9 · April 24, 2023

12 hours ago, ultrAslan said:

Thank you for taking time to comment on this thread. I thought also for a similar approach, but then I saw that the wing backs of Man City has over 15 acceleration. Walker has 18 for acceleration. How would this help me when they have faster back players. I was thinking of lowering the tempo and keeping the ball and slowly move my players to the final third. How would another fomation help me better then a 4-3-3 DM?

Yes, I tried to play with two IF(A), but they where isolated and was hard to link up with my middfield. So I needed to spare one of the wingers to help te build-up play. My other IF has an acceleration of 17 so I wanted him to run behind the defenders. Zaniolo is performing well as a inverted winger, but maybe you are right to play fully on his potential as an IF.

Just for reference, this is one of my favorite ways to set up a counter attack. This isn't meant as a "copy this system" but just as an idea of how you can put together a successful counter attacking system. Hopefully it'll be helpful to bounce ideas off of

PIs: Dribble more on the WB(s), take more risks on the DLP(D), dribble more on the BPD, and some aggro closing down on the CM(s)."Cross more often" if either of the backs is capable, which you can aim at the TF. The passing directness on capable/incapable players is also key (DLP needs to be set to "more direct" to get him to not just recycle possession here). Usually that ends up with around 6ish playing it short, 2-3 more direct and a couple left blank. Getting a two footed MEZ is a huge buff for the role (he must be at least right footed).

Distribution: If you've got a good enough GK you can try to distribute straight to the TF (and/or against teams you can't even begin to try to play through). I avoid the SK(s) since he has "take more risks" ticked on him, which usually my keeper isn't capable of doing. I tend to recruit a shot stopper who can win penalty shootouts.

Reputation: Trying to counter attack when your a low reputation team is great because opposition will take the team to you and over commit. Once you start to get good (reputation wise) you might start running into problems.

Squad building: In a midblock, the midfield will be doing a lot of challenging to win the ball back: so the CM(s) and DLP(d) will need strong defensive attributes. If the players in the midfield aren't defensively capable, counter attacking won't work. I look for fullbacks who are strong 1v1 defenders who won't get beaten. If you've got inconsistent players in the squad, get rid. Team cohesion is extra important for a counter attack setup.

Speed: Faster the better for the W/AF. Avoid IW/IF for the wide man role, Winger role can really capitalize on pace, the wide setting, and that you're passing into space. Great combo with the TF as well, all he's got to do is beat his man and you're in. AF is lined up in between the opposition CB and the FB which makes his runs a little harder for them to track.

In Match Changes: Flicking on: "hit early cross + pass into space" in moments of the match is a sick combo. Also "Counter press" (as mentioned earlier) in select periods. I also flick tackle harder in moments (but be careful). Intensity is sitting nicely at a fairly low level (one of the reasons I select a "defensive mentality") despite our very direct/high tempo, the opposition will be getting tired way before you.

XG: Largely ignore it, you will be "deserving to win" games that you get out performed in in XG. All about taking your few chances when they come.

Note: forgot to tick, "play for set pieces" which I always go for in a defensive set up as well :thup:

Edited April 24, 2023 by Cloud9

ultrAslan · April 25, 2023

21 hours ago, Halbraum said:

Being deep and vertically compact are main ways to deny space to opponents. This can be done by either choosing lower mentalities or low risk TIs such as deep defensive line, low press, stay on feet etc.

I'd avoid to use overlapping/underlapping role combinations since your transitions will be much quicker and less proggessive. For example, FBsu+Wat is better than WBat+IWsu in this case imo. Roaming roles might be detrimental to direct attacking too. Also, having one advanced player who hold up ball to wait for support after receiving a long ball is great.

I understand when you play deep and vertically compact to deny space and compress the opponent, but how would a team that is defending go to attack if they keep coming and coming. It is a matter of time the opponent will score the goal because I am only sitting and defending on my own third?

20 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

ust for reference, this is one of my favorite ways to set up a counter attack. This isn't meant as a "copy this system" but just as an idea of how you can put together a successful counter attacking system. Hopefully it'll be helpful to bounce ideas off of

PIs: Dribble more on the WB(s), take more risks on the DLP(D), dribble more on the BPD, and some aggro closing down on the CM(s)."Cross more often" if either of the backs is capable, which you can aim at the TF. The passing directness on capable/incapable players is also key (DLP needs to be set to "more direct" to get him to not just recycle possession here). Usually that ends up with around 6ish playing it short, 2-3 more direct and a couple left blank. Getting a two footed MEZ is a huge buff for the role (he must be at least right footed).

Distribution: If you've got a good enough GK you can try to distribute straight to the TF (and/or against teams you can't even begin to try to play through). I avoid the SK(s) since he has "take more risks" ticked on him, which usually my keeper isn't capable of doing. I tend to recruit a shot stopper who can win penalty shootouts.

Reputation: Trying to counter attack when your a low reputation team is great because opposition will take the team to you and over commit. Once you start to get good (reputation wise) you might start running into problems.

Squad building: In a midblock, the midfield will be doing a lot of challenging to win the ball back: so the CM(s) and DLP(d) will need strong defensive attributes. If the players in the midfield aren't defensively capable, counter attacking won't work. I look for fullbacks who are strong 1v1 defenders who won't get beaten. If you've got inconsistent players in the squad, get rid. Team cohesion is extra important for a counter attack setup.

Speed: Faster the better for the W/AF. Avoid IW/IF for the wide man role, Winger role can really capitalize on pace, the wide setting, and that you're passing into space. Great combo with the TF as well, all he's got to do is beat his man and you're in. AF is lined up in between the opposition CB and the FB which makes his runs a little harder for them to track.

In Match Changes: Flicking on: "hit early cross + pass into space" in moments of the match is a sick combo. Also "Counter press" (as mentioned earlier) in select periods. I also flick tackle harder in moments (but be careful). Intensity is sitting nicely at a fairly low level (one of the reasons I select a "defensive mentality") despite our very direct/high tempo, the opposition will be getting tired way before you.

XG: Largely ignore it, you will be "deserving to win" games that you get out performed in in XG. All about taking your few chances when they come.

Note: forgot to tick, "play for set pieces" which I always go for in a defensive set up as well

Wow! Thank you for taking time to give your own way of playing to set-up a counter attacking tactic. And also thanks for the information above it changed my whole way of thinking and approaching these kinds of way of playing. I was thinking all way wrong and created tactics that was way more risky against the big fella's. I have one question about your set-up why would you play on defensive mentality instead of positive? How would a defensive mentality help me to get me good counter attacks? When would you go for a mentality change?

I've made my own version after your great feedback, but they need to get familiar so I can test this in a game:

Spoiler

Cloud9 · April 25, 2023

5 hours ago, ultrAslan said:

I understand when you play deep and vertically compact to deny space and compress the opponent, but how would a team that is defending go to attack if they keep coming and coming. It is a matter of time the opponent will score the goal because I am only sitting and defending on my own third?

Wow! Thank you for taking time to give your own way of playing to set-up a counter attacking tactic. And also thanks for the information above it changed my whole way of thinking and approaching these kinds of way of playing. I was thinking all way wrong and created tactics that was way more risky against the big fella's. I have one question about your set-up why would you play on defensive mentality instead of positive? How would a defensive mentality help me to get me good counter attacks? When would you go for a mentality change?

I've made my own version after your great feedback, but they need to get familiar so I can test this in a game:

Hide contents

Mentality can be quite tricky to get the hang of.

Mentality doesn't mean they'll be more attacking or defensive (like would make sense), but will impact how players take risk on the ball. I like to play Defensive when counter attacking with attacking roles to hit the space, but you could also play counter attack on a positive mentality with less aggressive roles. Personally I play defensive (partly because you couldn't on previous FMs) because I like the lower tempo it gives, meaning I can make more in match changes imo. This is just personal preference on my part.
A good rule of thumb when setting up your system is making sure you're putting enough pressure on your opposition, even when you're sitting deep and primarily defending. For my system, that's my Mez(a). AF(a) and Winger (A) attacking the space.
There are different schools of thought on changing mentality in your tactic, since it will change how everyone plays. This is a bit I'm still figuring out myself, but if you don't want to change the tactic too much you can try keeping the mentality the same and alter other elements to make changes. If you do change mentality, upping the mentality causes fairly dramatic changes to how they play, so they'll need to be trained to do it in your second/third tactic. I would try experimenting for what works best for you and your play style on this front.
On playing narrow vs wide, I personally keep wide to benefit my fast players and go as wide as they're capable of doing. This is a risk I'm taking to maximize the attacking threat on the opposition, but it does leave us more open at the back. If I'm ahead and looking to see out the game I will dial the width back to stay more compact.
Your setup look like a great starting point, personally I'd want a more defensively minded role than the AP in the midfield 3 that can win the ball back. AP(s) is a fairly flamboyant playmaking role without real defensive duties. The blank roles (CM(S), DM(s) for example) can be great in crafting a tactic because they're entirely customizable to what you want from the player in their Personal Instructions. There's no TF so you might end up feeling like you're asking a lot of the AF (which is what I've struggled with when I've subbed that role out in my tinkering). The TF forward option offers a knock down and hold up play (a different attack route to the over the top to the AF). Just two attacking roles in your tactic might struggle on a defensive mentality, just something to keep in mind while you're watching how it plays in the matches.
Be more expressive is a modifier I might avoid on a counter attacking system. It'll make your boys roaming from position a bit which might lead to defensive problems.
If you want to play a MEZ on the left side and a wide man (the IF(a)), the MEZ can pair superbly with a Winger on his side. This might help you exploit the space a bit more on an attack role. Building your tactic around strong role combination can be a great point to build from. My system I play the MEZ and Winger on opposite sides since the asymmetrical formation gives the MEZ a ton of free space to attack (he is often the flair star of the show).

Great that your putting together your own tactic, nothing more rewarding than when it clicks :thup:

Edited April 25, 2023 by Cloud9

Halbraum · April 25, 2023

16 saat önce, ultrAslan said:

I understand when you play deep and vertically compact to deny space and compress the opponent, but how would a team that is defending go to attack if they keep coming and coming. It is a matter of time the opponent will score the goal because I am only sitting and defending on my own third?

That's why you utilize the high tempo and direct passes: to bypass their press quickly and penetrate the space behind. This is the reason why defensive teams use a Target Man type of striker, to pump the ball to him and expect the best result for keeping the possession.

Your tactics looks good to me, except one thing: Dribble Less TI is completely contrasting instruction for the playing style you're trying to implement. Players already take less risks in lower mentalities, so they're already less willing to make risky dribbles. Also you don't want to hinder and offset "Dribble More" roles.

ultrAslan · April 28, 2023

Update on this topic. I am still experimenting counter attacking the big teams and made some tweaks on my own tactic. This is the tactic I am using at the moment:

Spoiler

Example of a game I played against Barca with this tactic. As you can see I dominated the game but I analyzed them very good. They where playing a tiki-taka based playing style so I was just waiting like Ok go ahead and pass the ball how many times you want, because the door is shut haha. As you can see the possession they couldn't do not so much. If I had some good players with great finishing this match could be ours:

Spoiler

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I have a few things on my mind when it comes to playing with this tactic:

I know that this defensive mentality is a good starting point for playing counter-attacking football, but when should I play with a cautious or balanced mentality?
I notice sometimes that some balls go over my defense, what can I do about this? Should I lower my defensive line a bit? Wouldn't that be too close to my goal and leave me isolated in my own half?
Previously on my earlier version of this tactic I played with two attacking roles IF(A) and AF(A), I just didn't know which other attacking role I could use to put pressure on the opponent.
With my base formation, I play with a positive mentality and some players have different roles, but I am also the title favorite in my own league so I can take that risk. When I have to switch to a counter-attacking formation in the Champions League, I notice that the tactical familiarity is not optimal. How can I make sure I have familiarity with both tactics?
What can I do when I'm 1-0 or 2-0 behind? Usually, I wait until the 75-80th minute and see that the opponent is quite tired and try to punish them. Should I change the mentality also when I tweak some TI's.

Edited April 28, 2023 by ultrAslan

Cloud9 · April 28, 2023

11 hours ago, ultrAslan said:

Update on this topic. I am still experimenting counter attacking the big teams and made some tweaks on my own tactic. This is the tactic I am using at the moment:

Reveal hidden contents

Example of a game I played against Barca with this tactic. As you can see I dominated the game but I analyzed them very good. They where playing a tiki-taka based playing style so I was just waiting like Ok go ahead and pass the ball how many times you want, because the door is shut haha. As you can see the possession they couldn't do not so much. If I had some good players with great finishing this match could be ours:

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I have a few things on my mind when it comes to playing with this tactic:

I know that this defensive mentality is a good starting point for playing counter-attacking football, but when should I play with a cautious or balanced mentality?

I notice sometimes that some balls go over my defense, what can I do about this? Should I lower my defensive line a bit? Wouldn't that be too close to my goal and leave me isolated in my own half?

Previously on my earlier version of this tactic I played with two attacking roles IF(A) and AF(A), I just didn't know which other attacking role I could use to put pressure on the opponent.

With my base formation, I play with a positive mentality and some players have different roles, but I am also the title favorite in my own league so I can take that risk. When I have to switch to a counter-attacking formation in the Champions League, I notice that the tactical familiarity is not optimal. How can I make sure I have familiarity with both tactics?

What can I do when I'm 1-0 or 2-0 behind? Usually, I wait until the 75-80th minute and see that the opponent is quite tired and try to punish them. Should I change the mentality also when I tweak some TI's.

If you can put the Mezzala and Winger on the same side, they'll make a great pairing :thup:

You can train the counter attacking formation specifically on the training screen.

I wouldn't change mentality once your set up with a defensive counter, I would personally only look to change the mentality if you're looking to chase the game.

If you go behind with a counter attacking formation, it's difficult to come back into the game. It depends on if the opponent is still attacking after they've scored and how much time you have to come back into the game.

Other thing to keep in mind: your current setup is quite demanding for the AF and DM to be complete players. The DM needs to be able to tackle, pass, etc. and the AF is your only primary goal threat (tall, quick etc.). I've been opting for a 3-4-1-2 in my current counter attack system so I can have a DLP(s) passing, BWM (d) winning the ball and then two primary goal threats creating a complete striker with height in a TF and pace in an AF. 5 at the back systems also concede less (although they also offer less of an attacking threat) which helps to deal with conceding first like you mention. Just something to keep an eye out for, it can be particularly helpful w/ players who aren't as good.

In general small tweaks are more effective to make in matches than changing the entire tactic. If I'm 1-0 down and they're still attacking...I'll switch on the counter press, up the trigger press, and flick on hit cross early.

Edited April 28, 2023 by Cloud9

Cloud9 · April 29, 2023

13 hours ago, ultrAslan said:

Update on this topic. I am still experimenting counter attacking the big teams and made some tweaks on my own tactic. This is the tactic I am using at the moment:

Reveal hidden contents

Example of a game I played against Barca with this tactic. As you can see I dominated the game but I analyzed them very good. They where playing a tiki-taka based playing style so I was just waiting like Ok go ahead and pass the ball how many times you want, because the door is shut haha. As you can see the possession they couldn't do not so much. If I had some good players with great finishing this match could be ours:

Reveal hidden contents

----------------------------------

I have a few things on my mind when it comes to playing with this tactic:

I know that this defensive mentality is a good starting point for playing counter-attacking football, but when should I play with a cautious or balanced mentality?

I notice sometimes that some balls go over my defense, what can I do about this? Should I lower my defensive line a bit? Wouldn't that be too close to my goal and leave me isolated in my own half?

Previously on my earlier version of this tactic I played with two attacking roles IF(A) and AF(A), I just didn't know which other attacking role I could use to put pressure on the opponent.

With my base formation, I play with a positive mentality and some players have different roles, but I am also the title favorite in my own league so I can take that risk. When I have to switch to a counter-attacking formation in the Champions League, I notice that the tactical familiarity is not optimal. How can I make sure I have familiarity with both tactics?

What can I do when I'm 1-0 or 2-0 behind? Usually, I wait until the 75-80th minute and see that the opponent is quite tired and try to punish them. Should I change the mentality also when I tweak some TI's.

Realized this could be confusing:

MEZ and Winger are on opposite sides in the tactic I shared because the MEZ is hitting the huge space created by the asymmetrical tactic. This is doubled down on the fact that we're passing into space and playing on Defensive, where we're trying to maximize our ability to break into open spaces.
MEZ + Winger combining on the same side will run up the pitch together like two good buddies lol. One of the best role combinations in the game imo.

May 1, 2023

On 23/04/2023 at 22:09, Cloud9 said:

Just for reference, this is one of my favorite ways to set up a counter attack. This isn't meant as a "copy this system" but just as an idea of how you can put together a successful counter attacking system. Hopefully it'll be helpful to bounce ideas off of

PIs: Dribble more on the WB(s), take more risks on the DLP(D), dribble more on the BPD, and some aggro closing down on the CM(s)."Cross more often" if either of the backs is capable, which you can aim at the TF. The passing directness on capable/incapable players is also key (DLP needs to be set to "more direct" to get him to not just recycle possession here). Usually that ends up with around 6ish playing it short, 2-3 more direct and a couple left blank. Getting a two footed MEZ is a huge buff for the role (he must be at least right footed).

Distribution: If you've got a good enough GK you can try to distribute straight to the TF (and/or against teams you can't even begin to try to play through). I avoid the SK(s) since he has "take more risks" ticked on him, which usually my keeper isn't capable of doing. I tend to recruit a shot stopper who can win penalty shootouts.

Reputation: Trying to counter attack when your a low reputation team is great because opposition will take the team to you and over commit. Once you start to get good (reputation wise) you might start running into problems.

Squad building: In a midblock, the midfield will be doing a lot of challenging to win the ball back: so the CM(s) and DLP(d) will need strong defensive attributes. If the players in the midfield aren't defensively capable, counter attacking won't work. I look for fullbacks who are strong 1v1 defenders who won't get beaten. If you've got inconsistent players in the squad, get rid. Team cohesion is extra important for a counter attack setup.

Speed: Faster the better for the W/AF. Avoid IW/IF for the wide man role, Winger role can really capitalize on pace, the wide setting, and that you're passing into space. Great combo with the TF as well, all he's got to do is beat his man and you're in. AF is lined up in between the opposition CB and the FB which makes his runs a little harder for them to track.

In Match Changes: Flicking on: "hit early cross + pass into space" in moments of the match is a sick combo. Also "Counter press" (as mentioned earlier) in select periods. I also flick tackle harder in moments (but be careful). Intensity is sitting nicely at a fairly low level (one of the reasons I select a "defensive mentality") despite our very direct/high tempo, the opposition will be getting tired way before you.

XG: Largely ignore it, you will be "deserving to win" games that you get out performed in in XG. All about taking your few chances when they come.

Note: forgot to tick, "play for set pieces" which I always go for in a defensive set up as well

/

How would you keep this shape for non-countering games? Would you just make a few basic tweaks to roles and TI, or would you do something completely different?

Cloud9 · May 1, 2023

3 hours ago, BlitzkriegBob25 said:

How would you keep this shape for non-countering games? Would you just make a few basic tweaks to roles and TI, or would you do something completely different?

I try to keep the counter attack space against any team that will bring the game to me, since my teams reputation was quite low this wasn't too much of an issue.

If you need to move out of the counter attacking shape all together going into a match (ie against a weak team) I would make these adjustments:

Upping the lines
Reducing the tempo a lot and stretching the pitch (consider maximizing the width)
Reducing passing directness
Hit crosses early
AF -> PF(a)/P. DLP(d) -> HB.
Personally I would move the mentality to positive
Play out from Defence

Up the tempo and counter press for moments in the match, while looking to patiently break them down as above the rest of the time. Since your recruitment is based around the counterattack (speed/winning the ball back) upping the lines and changing the style of play is always a bit disadvantageous.

If you go behind in a match I would first look to keep the counter attack setup and make small tweaks to turn things around. Some include:

Turn on "hit crosses early" + "counter press"
Switch the WB(s) -> WB(a) or ask the FB(s) to get forward
Look for a weak side to play down and a player to target
Check the pass maps
You can try playing slightly less direct as well if they aren't massively stronger than you

These changes will depend on who you're playing and where they're weak. However, if you go behind and the opposition start sitting back, or youre running out of time to score, you will need to abandon the counter attacking system and look to take the game to them. If this happens against a side thats better than you, I would up the lines and go for them in a high tempo attack that's direct. In general a counter attacking system is all about hitting open space so when you're watching the match, keep an eye out for this when making your in match changes.

If you've got like for like replacements on the bench it's difficult to change a game either to get a goal or shut up shop. Once you build up a strong squad this is a great option to have. Having a more defensive midfielder to serve as a Carrilero role instead of the MEZ is a good example. An offensive left back can be a strong utility option.

I would use "tackle harder" as a last attempt to turn around a bad game in sections, particularly if I've upped the lines.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Cloud9

May 1, 2023

48 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

I try to keep the counter attack space against any team that will bring the game to me, since my teams reputation was quite low this wasn't too much of an issue.

If you need to move out of the counter attacking shape all together I would make these adjustments:

Upping the lines

Reducing the tempo a lot and stretching the pitch (consider maximizing the width)

Reducing passing directness

Hit crosses early

AF -> PF(a)/P. DLP(d) -> HB.

Personally I would move the mentality to positive

Play out from Defence

I would up tempo and counter press for moments again, while looking to patiently break them down as above the rest of the time. Since your recruitment is based around the counterattack (speed) upping the lines and changing the style of play I only use when I really need to.

If you go behind in a match I would first look to keep the counter attack setup and make small tweaks to turn things around. Some include:

Turn on "hit crosses early" + "counter press"

Switch the WB(s) -> WB(a)

You can ask the FB(s) to get forward more

Look for a weak side to play down and a player to target

Check the pass maps

You can try playing slightly less direct as well if they aren't massively stronger than you

However, if you go behind and they sit back, you will need to abandon the counter attacking system and look to take the game to them.

If you've got like for like replacements on the bench it's difficult to change a game either to get or goal or shut up shop. Once you build up a strong squad this is a great option to have. Having a more defensive midfielder to serve as a Carrilero role instead of the MEZ is a good example. An offensive left back can be a strong utility option.

I would use "tackle harder" as a last attempt to turn around a bad game in sections, particularly if I've upped the lines.

Beautiful, thank you. I got Plymouth to the Championship and we're currently mid to low table, so this is all very helpful.

Cloud9 · May 1, 2023

26 minutes ago, BlitzkriegBob25 said:

Beautiful, thank you. I got Plymouth to the Championship and we're currently mid to low table, so this is all very helpful.

:thup: Great club Plymouth. The low intensity of this system can help with the high game load in the Championship. Make sure you get your 6 top tier loans in from premier league clubs on deadline day and you'll be flying.

Let me know if you run into any issues with the system and I can try to help out.

May 2, 2023

On 30/04/2023 at 22:57, Cloud9 said:

Great club Plymouth. The low intensity of this system can help with the high game load in the Championship. Make sure you get your 6 top tier loans in from premier league clubs on deadline day and you'll be flying.

Let me know if you run into any issues with the system and I can try to help out.

Mini Update: This is a really great system! I suggest you do a longer write up or make a new thread, it works really well. There's so many ways to counter and I see so many posts where people are asking for advice on how to play this way, that I'm sure some more people would like to try it. The roles are basic enough that it can work in lower leagues (I would assume) and having 3 variants of the same system really helps too. It's tough because countering relies less on team instructions and so much on your own team and what the other team is doing, but having some basic guidelines like this is a nice balance between defending and breaking.

I also really like the AF in the channel. If he's got pace then there's some nice link up play with the target man for some low crosses in the box, he almost becomes more of a facilitator. I've also converted a right winger into a Mezzala which is working out nicely too.

All in all a great tactic!

May 2, 2023

On 30/04/2023 at 22:57, Cloud9 said:

Great club Plymouth. The low intensity of this system can help with the high game load in the Championship. Make sure you get your 6 top tier loans in from premier league clubs on deadline day and you'll be flying.

Let me know if you run into any issues with the system and I can try to help out.

Also the only thing I would ask about is if you think it could work with a low block instead of a mid block? My current team can play the mid block, but just curious if you think its giving up too much space or is too defensive to break consistently?

ultrAslan · May 3, 2023

Oh my god. So, I spent some time testing to come up with a good counter tactic using the input you all gave me. I even played the same match 100 times to develop a good counter tactic, but somehow I couldn't make it work. I tried every mentality/defensive line/opponent instructions combination, but I kept losing by large margins. I couldn't identify the weakness. I also wasn't making good counters during the match. I had almost given up hope and was ready to accept that the opponent was just too strong for my team. I decided to read this topic from top to bottom again, paying attention to every detail. I realized that I had missed a crucial point while creating the counter tactic."

On 24/04/2023 at 07:09, Cloud9 said:

PIs: Dribble more on the WB(s), take more risks on the DLP(D), dribble more on the BPD, and some aggro closing down on the CM(s)."Cross more often" if either of the backs is capable, which you can aim at the TF. The passing directness on capable/incapable players is also key (DLP needs to be set to "more direct" to get him to not just recycle possession here). Usually that ends up with around 6ish playing it short, 2-3 more direct and a couple left blank. Getting a two footed MEZ is a huge buff for the role (he must be at least right footed).

So, I didn't read this part properly. Thanks to a small adjustment, but one of the most crucial for a counter tactic is to have your players apply good pressure up front so that the opponent doesn't have all the time in the world to play their own game. What I had forgotten is to maximize the pressing for my players playing up front and in the centre of the pitch. I also indicated how each player should pass, so defenders pass short and playmakers pass more directly and with more risk.

Final version of my counter tactic:

Spoiler

Look at these match stats:

vs FC Bayern - away game (quarter final)

Spoiler

vs FC Bayern - home game(same tactic)

- look at posession (30%)

Spoiler

vs Real Madrid - Home game(semi-final)

- again look at posession

Spoiler

I wanna say thank you for the ones who has helped me through this topic understand the concepts of counter attacking football to deny space and hit them on the counter. Especially @Cloud9for your detailed explanation and examples. Ive learned so much and enjoying the game more then ever.

May 3, 2023

5 hours ago, ultrAslan said:

Oh my god. So, I spent some time testing to come up with a good counter tactic using the input you all gave me. I even played the same match 100 times to develop a good counter tactic, but somehow I couldn't make it work. I tried every mentality/defensive line/opponent instructions combination, but I kept losing by large margins. I couldn't identify the weakness. I also wasn't making good counters during the match. I had almost given up hope and was ready to accept that the opponent was just too strong for my team. I decided to read this topic from top to bottom again, paying attention to every detail. I realized that I had missed a crucial point while creating the counter tactic."

So, I didn't read this part properly. Thanks to a small adjustment, but one of the most crucial for a counter tactic is to have your players apply good pressure up front so that the opponent doesn't have all the time in the world to play their own game. What I had forgotten is to maximize the pressing for my players playing up front and in the centre of the pitch. I also indicated how each player should pass, so defenders pass short and playmakers pass more directly and with more risk.

Final version of my counter tactic:

Reveal hidden contents

Look at these match stats:

vs FC Bayern - away game (quarter final)

Reveal hidden contents

vs FC Bayern - home game(same tactic)

- look at posession (30%)

Reveal hidden contents

vs Real Madrid - Home game(semi-final)

- again look at posession

Reveal hidden contents

I wanna say thank you for the ones who has helped me through this topic understand the concepts of counter attacking football to deny space and hit them on the counter. Especially @Cloud9for your detailed explanation and examples. Ive learned so much and enjoying the game more then ever.

You also may want to spend some more time looking at the players you have in those positions, it's not all about the tactic and whether it works or not. I'm running this same type of system and it's working really well for me. It can work, but if you don't have the right type of players in those roles you'll have trouble.

I'd suggest looking at the key attributes for each role, go to the Comparisons tab to see what the league average is for each attribute (its in Squad Planner now) and then look at your players and see how well equipped they are. Or not equipped. Plenty of players seems like good fits on the surface, but player traits and secondary attributes can be the difference.

Cloud9 · May 7, 2023

On 02/05/2023 at 14:25, BlitzkriegBob25 said:

Also the only thing I would ask about is if you think it could work with a low block instead of a mid block? My current team can play the mid block, but just curious if you think its giving up too much space or is too defensive to break consistently?

Glad it's working for you :thup:

I don't like dropping back to a low-block with this current setup. Midblock focuses winning the ball back around the midfield area and lets you do in match changes like "hits crosses early" which aren't as effective w/ the low block. The asymmetrical setup is a fairly aggressive counter attacking setup (despite the mentality) which offers a ton of push back on the opposition. Being assyemtrical becomes more of a liability dropping deeper, as you invite more pressure. The midblock also sets the MEZ(a) to shine, I think he'd struggle to get involved as much in a low-block break. Since the MEZ is the ace in the hole in this lineup I think your attack would feel fairly hamstrung.

Low blocks can work though, I've had the most success with them in a 5-2-3 where you're already giving up midfield control in exchange for pacey wide players. In the 5-2-3, the extra defenders/cover allow for lower risk attempts to win the ball back in your third. In the current setup there's not the luxury of 3 CBs/ double pivot/wingbacks, so a defender attempting and failing to win the ball back (and getting beaten) is much higher risk.

On a comprehensive write-up, I might pull one together for different counter attacking systems sometime but we'll see.

Edited May 7, 2023 by Cloud9

Cloud9 · May 7, 2023

On 03/05/2023 at 03:36, ultrAslan said:

Oh my god. So, I spent some time testing to come up with a good counter tactic using the input you all gave me. I even played the same match 100 times to develop a good counter tactic, but somehow I couldn't make it work. I tried every mentality/defensive line/opponent instructions combination, but I kept losing by large margins. I couldn't identify the weakness. I also wasn't making good counters during the match. I had almost given up hope and was ready to accept that the opponent was just too strong for my team. I decided to read this topic from top to bottom again, paying attention to every detail. I realized that I had missed a crucial point while creating the counter tactic."

So, I didn't read this part properly. Thanks to a small adjustment, but one of the most crucial for a counter tactic is to have your players apply good pressure up front so that the opponent doesn't have all the time in the world to play their own game. What I had forgotten is to maximize the pressing for my players playing up front and in the centre of the pitch. I also indicated how each player should pass, so defenders pass short and playmakers pass more directly and with more risk.

Final version of my counter tactic:

Reveal hidden contents

Look at these match stats:

vs FC Bayern - away game (quarter final)

Reveal hidden contents

vs FC Bayern - home game(same tactic)

- look at posession (30%)

Reveal hidden contents

vs Real Madrid - Home game(semi-final)

- again look at posession

Reveal hidden contents

I wanna say thank you for the ones who has helped me through this topic understand the concepts of counter attacking football to deny space and hit them on the counter. Especially @Cloud9for your detailed explanation and examples. Ive learned so much and enjoying the game more then ever.

Awesome, happy counterattacking

May 10, 2023

On 07/05/2023 at 08:30, Cloud9 said:

Glad it's working for you

I don't like dropping back to a low-block with this current setup. Midblock focuses winning the ball back around the midfield area and lets you do in match changes like "hits crosses early" which aren't as effective w/ the low block. The asymmetrical setup is a fairly aggressive counter attacking setup (despite the mentality) which offers a ton of push back on the opposition. Being assyemtrical becomes more of a liability dropping deeper, as you invite more pressure. The midblock also sets the MEZ(a) to shine, I think he'd struggle to get involved as much in a low-block break. Since the MEZ is the ace in the hole in this lineup I think your attack would feel fairly hamstrung.

Low blocks can work though, I've had the most success with them in a 5-2-3 where you're already giving up midfield control in exchange for pacey wide players. In the 5-2-3, the extra defenders/cover allow for lower risk attempts to win the ball back in your third. In the current setup there's not the luxury of 3 CBs/ double pivot/wingbacks, so a defender attempting and failing to win the ball back (and getting beaten) is much higher risk.

On a comprehensive write-up, I might pull one together for different counter attacking systems sometime but we'll see.

Good to know, maybe that's why my non 523 counters don't work. Ha. How would you approach against a mid / low block that's playing direct? I'm thinking against say a 3421 where their midfield 4 are sitting just before their own halfway line and pinging balls over the top....I feel like that's a pretty common A.I. tactic now. While you're going to get beat that way from time to time, I'm not sure if it's better to play counter / defensive and try to bait them into moving forward (maybe by pressing less intensely?) or playing more balanced with a high press so at least you get some better pressure on those 4.

Do you have any particular stat or metric you look at to determine whether or not you're being attacked? It's sometimes obvious and I usually set up to counter for away matches, especially vs a top 10 side, but I'm not sure if I should be more selective with it. Should I wait until I don't know, the average positioning says X number of players are across their halfway line or something like that? Thanks again!

Cloud9 · May 11, 2023

10 hours ago, BlitzkriegBob25 said:

Good to know, maybe that's why my non 523 counters don't work. Ha. How would you approach against a mid / low block that's playing direct? I'm thinking against say a 3421 where their midfield 4 are sitting just before their own halfway line and pinging balls over the top....I feel like that's a pretty common A.I. tactic now. While you're going to get beat that way from time to time, I'm not sure if it's better to play counter / defensive and try to bait them into moving forward (maybe by pressing less intensely?) or playing more balanced with a high press so at least you get some better pressure on those 4.

Do you have any particular stat or metric you look at to determine whether or not you're being attacked? It's sometimes obvious and I usually set up to counter for away matches, especially vs a top 10 side, but I'm not sure if I should be more selective with it. Should I wait until I don't know, the average positioning says X number of players are across their halfway line or something like that? Thanks again!

If you can, always look to play your own game. The players are recruited to attack the space, so abandoning the system should be a last resort.

Vs a mid/low block:

Going into a game, I would only look to take the game to them if you're the superior side and at home.
Taking the game to them will also play into their hands (they want you to come at them), better to grind out a 1-0 with patient play.
You can try to go for a less direct approach, since there's less space to reward the risk of a super quick transition. You'll turn the ball over less, but your attacks will have less punch, so it's a toss up (I wouldn't recommend this against a midblock 3-4-2-1 regardless of the opponents stature).
Ultimately the game will be pretty cagey if you're both sitting back. You can make more aggressive in match changes in these games (more trigger press/counter press etc). If they score first, then I would look to go on the front foot.
Usually this isn't an issue until much later in the save, since your low reputation will keep teams underestimating your ability. By this time your squad should be deep enough to have technical players who can control games when you need to.

Vs 3-4-2-1:

The box midfield can be a pain. You're outnumbered so I wouldn't try to win the battle there. Your team attacks wide anyways (including the MEZa) so in possession it doesn't really matter.
Deal with the wingbacks (their only wide threat). Nullifying them, the solo striker will be pretty isolated and they'll struggle to break you down. If he's getting in behind your central defender pairing, I would see if your CBs need upgrading.
Check their two AMC, they're the only other potential goal threats. If one is a fancy playmaker, go after him as much as the WBs. If one has high off the ball, he's a goal threat you need to pick up. If one can hit long shots, have a tall goalkeeper lol. Usually AMC type players are pretty easy to bully.
I have my CM(s) be fairly sacrificial in my setups. If the opposition has a particularly dangerous player I need to shut down, I'll send him specifically to do a job on him.
If you've got particularly quick players by this point, go maximum width against narrow setups like this.
Usually back 3's lack jumping height, so the W->TF (lofted crosses) can shine here. An IW would struggle more as he would need to beat the WB + the CB/DM. Your Winger(a) is looking to get to the touchline, cross, and does not care.
You can move the TF to line up against one of the short CBs, although it's always preferred to have him in the middle.
Your right WB can be pushed to attack duty to exploit the wide spaces.

Just to recap: check their 2 WB/AMC. See who can create, win the ball back off them when they get it. Attack directly out wide and you're in. If they have superb pacey wingbacks (PSG esque) it's going to be pretty tricky.

How to tell when they're sitting back:

In general, if you watch the game on full, not highlights, you can see if they're looking to bring the game or sitting back more.
The AF will always look to sit on the defenders backline, so where he is sitting when you're defending is an indicator of their defensive line on the pitch.
Their line of engagement you can see as well, where they are pushing to on the pitch.
You can access the in game data hub to see what section of the pith they're playing in.
Sometimes the commentator will mention a change in play as well.
Check after subs are made.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Cloud9

ultrAslan · May 13, 2023

Another questions where I am finding answers for:

This is the tactic that I'm using for soaking up the pressure and hit the opponent on the counter:

Spoiler

So the biggest change is the mentality I changed it to Cautious, it was before Defensive. The reason why I did this is I am no longer a big underdog, but slightly the underdog. The top tier teams are a little bit stronger so that is the reason why I wanted to take more risk.

What would you do @Cloud9, stick on defensive mentality all way long or try to take more risk when you get a little bit stronger?
What would you do when you are one men down?
Do you use the analytical tab when you are in game? like checking the heat-map? or passing of individual players? Or the movement?

Cloud9 · May 14, 2023

15 hours ago, ultrAslan said:

Another questions where I am finding answers for:

This is the tactic that I'm using for soaking up the pressure and hit the opponent on the counter:

Reveal hidden contents

So the biggest change is the mentality I changed it to Cautious, it was before Defensive. The reason why I did this is I am no longer a big underdog, but slightly the underdog. The top tier teams are a little bit stronger so that is the reason why I wanted to take more risk.

What would you do @Cloud9, stick on defensive mentality all way long or try to take more risk when you get a little bit stronger?
What would you do when you are one men down?
Do you use the analytical tab when you are in game? like checking the heat-map? or passing of individual players? Or the movement?

On Defensive vs Cautious:

Mentality will affect everything, so in my tactic (which is all about quick transitioning, utilizing the TF/hitting the ball into space with the attacking roles) the Defensive compliments nicely. Going cautious might suit your 4-3-3 better anyways where you're set up for a bit more transitional football and less long balls.

Personally I keep my mentality on Defensive in games where I set up like this throughout the save. Usually I make changes in moving the width as wide as possible when the players are capable of doing so (wide opens you up defensively, but capitalizes on player quality and speed when you're going forward). A lot of it will come down to how you've recruited/improved the squad. If they're like for like upgrades (a more dribbly, faster boy for the winger for example), the upgrades don't demand a tactical shift. However, if you're just bringing in more technical players then I would recommend moving towards a more fluid counter attack. You can do a lot of the changes for new players in the PIs instead of making wholesale changes to the tactic (particularly w/passing instructions). I also spend a lot of time rounding out my squad after we're established in my save. Having options off the bench (a carrilero for the MEZ in my system) means I have more options to change a match not going my way. This recruitment approach encourages me to push the tactic to its maximum instead of transitioning to a possession based style of play (but that's completely personal preference in my squad building).

You could try running a double BPD as you feel you're getting stronger as a squad and potentially a keeper capable of launching attacks.

I think there's always a balance between your tactical ideal and the players you recruit, so making space to accommodate great players in your system is important going forward. This is totally up to you on how rigid you want to be as you evolve your team into your image. If you've set up your scouting network for newgens, instead of cherry picking u23 international squads, there's a lot of randomness in the players your scouts bring back so you're presented with more difficult decisions between seasons.

If you find the squad and style of play is suffering from the conservative mentality, I'd recommend playing around with a Positive mentality counter attack.

W/ 10 men:

Telling players to ease off tackles when on a card can help you not get in that situation, but it's pretty difficult once you do. W/ my system I replace the defensive player red carded, tell the GK to hoof the ball to the TF, and set passing to very direct. Up the time wasting and pray usually.

I'd recommend avoiding parking the bus completely although I do drop the tempo. Putting no pressure back on the opposition invites them to come at you in waves, which makes conceding feel inevitable.

Analytics Tab:

I use it a ton in matches.

Passing maps: see who's dangerous and making things tick for them. You can then try to stop them or stop who's passing the ball to them.
Heat map: For winning the ball back more efficiently and making defensive tweaks (what area of the pitch is their play focused).
And the most important for me is in the Match Momentum, that's what I use to figure out when it's our moment to go forward and stop trying to weather the storm (so turning on counter press, upping trigger press) or sticking the WB on attack duty for bit.

Little side note: I've removed the DLP(d) for a simple DM(d) in my save.

The DLP was quite useful when the team was truly terrible since he was someone who they could give the ball to, but now that things have progressed a bit I think the DM(d) offers more defensive solidity and a more dynamic attack. Basically everything was going through the DLP, which wasn't useful anymore and I should have dropped it much earlier in my save. I'm adding playmaking traits/PIs to other players so several of them are capable of taking the initiative to launch the counters more quickly.

Also the DLP(d) kind of annoys me, the DLP(s) is one of my favorite roles in a double pivot but on (d) it just felt a little off.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Cloud9

Mutumba · May 18, 2023

On 03/05/2023 at 12:36, ultrAslan said:

Oh my god. So, I spent some time testing to come up with a good counter tactic using the input you all gave me. I even played the same match 100 times to develop a good counter tactic, but somehow I couldn't make it work. I tried every mentality/defensive line/opponent instructions combination, but I kept losing by large margins. I couldn't identify the weakness. I also wasn't making good counters during the match. I had almost given up hope and was ready to accept that the opponent was just too strong for my team. I decided to read this topic from top to bottom again, paying attention to every detail. I realized that I had missed a crucial point while creating the counter tactic."

So, I didn't read this part properly. Thanks to a small adjustment, but one of the most crucial for a counter tactic is to have your players apply good pressure up front so that the opponent doesn't have all the time in the world to play their own game. What I had forgotten is to maximize the pressing for my players playing up front and in the centre of the pitch. I also indicated how each player should pass, so defenders pass short and playmakers pass more directly and with more risk.

Final version of my counter tactic:

Hide contents

Look at these match stats:

vs FC Bayern - away game (quarter final)

Do you use any Player instructions?

ultrAslan · May 18, 2023

@Cloud9 Thank you for sharing your valuable insights and detailed comments! Your knowledge in tactics and squad building are evident, and your suggestions provide a lot of useful information for making strategic decisions in the game. I appreciate the time and effort you put into explaining your approach and sharing your personal preferences. I must admit that despite my understanding of the game mechanics, I still find it difficult to read the game and identify opportunities or weaknesses. However, your advice on utilizing passing maps to identify key players and disrupt their influence, as well as using heat maps to win the ball back effectively and make defensive adjustments, is great.

@Mutumba Yes for the defenders I am saying to pass short so they can deliver the ball to the playmaker(s). For the playmaker or playmakers their passing is set to direct so they can play to the winger or advanced forward that is attacking. Most importantly change I made is the pressing. The front 5(2cm 2wide players and the AF) has pressing set to maximum and tackle harder and also tight marking.

toshimitzou1 · June 7, 2023

@Cloud9

Your insights into counter-attacking and utilising space have revolutionised my playstyle and reignited my joy for the game. Personally, i am quite a decent tactician and have had success at various levels, completing the youth challenge and never failing to dominate in a chosen save. However, this has without fail, relied on, over time, imposing a positive/attaking possession based system that only truly thrives once we are superior in ability to thee opposition.

I set up a journeyman save, taking inspiration from your ideas and intent on sticking to a defensive, counter attack style of play. After leading a nobody team from the bulgarian leauge to domestic dominance, I landed a job at a Newcastle side in the relegation zone. Embracing your dogmatic approach, I recruited accordingly in the winter transfer window and easily avoided relegation. The following season, we won the league and lost by one goal in the final of the CL and this year we are blitzing the league again. Here is what I have used to great success:

And the results this season:

And the fun stuff:

It really is great fun! I've already implemented a more fluid version that relies on the same principle but is more suited as a dominant team:

Thanks again. If you want to know more about the details let me know!!!

billmatic · June 9, 2023

@toshimitzou1 You've inspired me to start a journeyman save. :applause:

Cloud9 · June 9, 2023

On 07/06/2023 at 07:04, toshimitzou1 said:

@Cloud9

Your insights into counter-attacking and utilising space have revolutionised my playstyle and reignited my joy for the game. Personally, i am quite a decent tactician and have had success at various levels, completing the youth challenge and never failing to dominate in a chosen save. However, this has without fail, relied on, over time, imposing a positive/attaking possession based system that only truly thrives once we are superior in ability to thee opposition.

I set up a journeyman save, taking inspiration from your ideas and intent on sticking to a defensive, counter attack style of play. After leading a nobody team from the bulgarian leauge to domestic dominance, I landed a job at a Newcastle side in the relegation zone. Embracing your dogmatic approach, I recruited accordingly in the winter transfer window and easily avoided relegation. The following season, we won the league and lost by one goal in the final of the CL and this year we are blitzing the league again. Here is what I have used to great success:

And the results this season:

And the fun stuff:

It really is great fun! I've already implemented a more fluid version that relies on the same principle but is more suited as a dominant team:

Thanks again. If you want to know more about the details let me know!!!

That's great to hear, glad it's working out for you! How does the RMD work for you in the system?

Notice you're playing on FM22 where the ideas above are a bit more tricky to pull off, particularly with the defensive mentality. Just something to keep in mind, but sounds like it hasn't been too much of a problem

toshimitzou1 · June 10, 2023

10 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

That's great to hear, glad it's working out for you! How does the RMD work for you in the system?

Notice you're playing on FM22 where the ideas above are a bit more tricky to pull off, particularly with the defensive mentality. Just something to keep in mind, but sounds like it hasn't been too much of a problem

Raumdeuter:

Doing just what I need. Most of his goals come later on in either half which is a real boon in tight contests. What has really stood out is the creativity the tactic has leant to the role. With the more direct nature of the tactic, the role operates as a hybrid Target man/Poacher. He frequently breaks the lines in the half spaces leaving acres of space free on the opposite side for my Winger to be played in directly or played via some quick passing around the box.

HOWEVER, my back up Raumdeuter is nowhere near as effective and is constantly nowhere to be seen in games. THIS is definitely a role the requires the relevant attributes.

toshimitzou1 · June 10, 2023

Another example of effective possession:

My back-up Raumdeuter (L. Ariza) grabbed the first two goals here. Once his mental attributes progress he will be far more consistent. Perfect goals for the system. First one he arrived unmarked at the back post for a free header. Second goal he was played in by the CF after a slick short passing counter built up down the left hand side.

Cloud9 · June 10, 2023

7 hours ago, toshimitzou1 said:

Raumdeuter:

Doing just what I need. Most of his goals come later on in either half which is a real boon in tight contests. What has really stood out is the creativity the tactic has leant to the role. With the more direct nature of the tactic, the role operates as a hybrid Target man/Poacher. He frequently breaks the lines in the half spaces leaving acres of space free on the opposite side for my Winger to be played in directly or played via some quick passing around the box.

HOWEVER, my back up Raumdeuter is nowhere near as effective and is constantly nowhere to be seen in games. THIS is definitely a role the requires the relevant attributes.

Very nice! I should play around more with atypical roles in my saves

Like those traits on Osihmen for operating in the RMD role, perfect player for a counter attack. Might be worth sticking a few of those (trys to beat the offside trap etc) on your backup RMD if he's underperforming for you.

Rashidi · June 10, 2023

On 22/04/2023 at 07:22, ultrAslan said:

What formation and tactics do you use when facing a high-pressing team as an underdog?
How do you set up your team defensively to minimize the space and time for the opposition's attackers? adjustment on the team instructions? or other roles and duties? Mentality change?
How do you transition from defense to attack quickly and efficiently to exploit the gaps left by the high-pressing team?
What are some common mistakes that inexperienced managers make when facing a high-pressing team, and how can I avoid them?

I can't speak for others but this is what I do.

1. I prefer to use the same formation and play to my strengths. I know that my system can deploy the trap inside very effectively with a solid combination of opposition instructions that close down passing angles. If I face the 442 for example, my wingbacks go on attack duty, I deploy the trap inside and focus play through the middle to hit the 442 as it surges forward. It usually destroys the 442.

Against other formations, I might opt to change the duties of my players, or I opt to use hold shape instead of counter on every opportunity, electing instead to counter only on AI generated counters. Understanding what your own formation is capable of doing allows you to stick to one formation instead of playing different tactics against different teams. All I do against different sides is tweak the team instructions and have a solid substitution strategy, which is usually the gamewinner in most cases. In a recent stream I got a win finally against a side that has had the better of me for a few seasons my using trap inside and OIs and completely destroyed them.

2. To minimize space and time for attackers, I need to know my own team well. I tend to sign players with high aggression. stamina and work rate. These are the basic attributes for gegen pressing or any kind of system that requires your team to work hard. Even a low block system needs players who are willing to go in when needed, and aggression is an attribute I have for EVERY player on the team, or try. When strikers have high aggression they are like a dog after a bone, once they get close to the player, they don't let go. Same applies in defensive midfield or central midfield. If my centre mids have low aggression they are sold, because at least one always needs high aggression.

Choosing the right players allows you to develop strategies such as compact pressing. This is done via team instructions like LOE and DL. If the two are close together ie. a higher defensive line and a midblock, what you end up seeing is a pack of players closing a player down. Depending on how you set it up, its either 2 or 3. The trigger press team instruction, is not an instruction that tells your players to close down more, it tells players to react to a trigger more often when its on max, its a common mistake people make.

To create an effective pressing zone, if you are playing gegen pressing or any kind of aggressive compact press, you need to remember that your width settings are very important. If your team is attacking on very wide settings they are further apart from each other. This produces gaps and players zonal marking areas will not overlap. An opposition player could go from one zone to another without being picked up by two players, until he is well inside the defensive third. To play gegen pressing or a compact block very well, we need the covering distance to be shorter, so I normally play on narrower widths when I am attacking so that my team doesn't have far to track when more than 1 player is expected to close down the opposition.

In these kind of set ups there is no need to make any mentality or duty change. A winger on attack duty on positive mentality will track someone all the way back and help you defend, if he has aggression and you are playing with the right team instructions.

3. To transition quickly you generally want your attacking players attacking space. If you are defending deep, then having those players ready to bolt off is important, you can also set things up well with the right roles and duties. For example, an AF is good for mid, low block systems because he is a focal point of attacks. Add the PI "take more risks" and "dribble more" and you have a role that is likely to look to break offside traps more often. The take more risks PI instructs a player to take more chances with movement and passing.

Having players with a good range of passing and vision is also good, and they don't always need to be playmakers. I have on countless occasions used BWMs with good passing range and Segundo Volantes with great traits unlocking sides with fantastic passing. Even a combo or Mez/IFs can be a very effective creative fulcrum on the flanks to unlock deep diagonal attacks. The team instruction pass into space is one I use liberally when I want to hit teams in those kind of spaces. You can transition quickly from defense to attack if you have the right roles, duties and if you have players attacking the space. This can easily be done on mentalities like Balanced.

4. The most common mistakes I have seen people make:
a. Having no aggressive players in the compact zone where they are trying to win the ball
b. Poor linkups to allow for transitions in the midfield phase. Too often from the saves i have received, the common problem rests in the midfield transition. Most people fail to get good attacking transitions happening because their tactical struction, ie roles and duties is often wrong.
c. Using TIs and PIs without considering the overall impact

toshimitzou1 · June 10, 2023

1 hour ago, Cloud9 said:

Might be worth sticking a few of those (trys to beat the offside trap etc) on your backup RMD if he's underperforming for you.

Using the Raumdeuter for the reason you specified. Good fun to use roles that are hard to accommodate. Exactly what I am in the process of doing with the back - up! Great minds....

Think I'm going to change things up next season. Just won the Quintuple so my team's rep is going to skyrocket. I'm going to stick with the defensive mentality as planned but maybe incorporate a more fluid variant for games we are favourites to win (which will be the majority). I am definitely keeping my current formation for big matches and finals. It plays like a dream in those big fixtures!!!

ultrAslan · June 12, 2023

Love to see that this topic is still alive!

On 07/06/2023 at 16:04, toshimitzou1 said:

Your insights into counter-attacking and utilising space have revolutionised my playstyle and reignited my joy for the game. Personally, i am quite a decent tactician and have had success at various levels, completing the youth challenge and never failing to dominate in a chosen save. However, this has without fail, relied on, over time, imposing a positive/attaking possession based system that only truly thrives once we are superior in ability to thee opposition.

Glad to hear that is working for you and giving new insights for me also to try a new way of counter! What I notice on your set-up is you are playing with a high defensive line, what is the reason behind it? Do you use some PI's for your formations? How does your defensive midfielder plays? Im using a DlpD or DlpS on that position.

toshimitzou1 · June 13, 2023

2 hours ago, ultrAslan said:

Love to see that this topic is still alive!

Glad to hear that is working for you and giving new insights for me also to try a new way of counter! What I notice on your set-up is you are playing with a high defensive line, what is the reason behind it? Do you use some PI's for your formations? How does your defensive midfielder plays? Im using a DlpD or DlpS on that position.

I'm on FM 22 and it was the best way to replicate a mid block with optimal compactness. The D-line on a Defensive mentality is deep already so raising it to higher still maintains a relatively 'safe' depth.

Just using similar rationale to @Cloud9 for PI's. setting one CM to close down more, a couple of others to dribble more and shortening the passing for some. The intent is to maintain the direct route whilst enabling ball carrying and shorter passing where necessary.

Solid and good for transitions. I've stuck creative PI's on mine (Long passes, switch play, Killer balls) so he can be creative if the option is on. It also ensures play is not funneled through the Playmaker.

As it is a journeyman save I have quit whilst at the top at Newcastle and taken a job at Holstein Kiel in the Bundesliga 2. I joined needing 3 wins from 5 to make it to the relegation play-off. Incorporating similar principles, we staved off relegation and (after a massive clear out and mass promotion of youth) are sitting pretty in 3rd place after 5 fixtures despite a very weak team predicted to finish 17th out of 18.

From our first youth intake at the back-end of last season we unearthed 2 x Right Mids that had decent defensive stats. I've been training them as CWB as it is a role I have never utilised. As such I am running this at the moment:

It follows all the principles @Cloud9 explained and I have tweaked it to get the most out of the CWB. UNFORTUNATELY I did not read the small print of the league rules and both of my youth intake are to young to play in the league (I can add them in January once they turn 16) and the player I am using there atm is wholly unsuitable ( 5 Flair, 9 dribbling etc.) However, the tactic itself is playing well and it has the potential to really make the most of the CWB. The HB really pushes the CWB wide and whilst I have seen nothing special from the current player, the patterns of play show promise. Furthermore, both Inverted Wingers on my roster are right footed which hardly lends to creating space for the CWB.

As a final note on the DM, if any of your other players are semi-capable of playing through the lines I would change it to a non-playmaker role. This adds so much more diversity to counter-attacking and prevents opportunities being lost as a result of others looking for the Playmaker.

ultrAslan · June 20, 2023

On 10/06/2023 at 19:55, Rashidi said:

I can't speak for others but this is what I do.

1. I prefer to use the same formation and play to my strengths. I know that my system can deploy the trap inside very effectively with a solid combination of opposition instructions that close down passing angles. If I face the 442 for example, my wingbacks go on attack duty, I deploy the trap inside and focus play through the middle to hit the 442 as it surges forward. It usually destroys the 442.

I dont get it, as I dont know what kind of formation you use? How would your wingbacks on attack duty help you when you face a 4-4-2? Currently testing trap inside and its working really wel. Im using the OI to press the fullbacks and pass the ball to the middle where my middfielders and DM is waiting to trap the opposition inside.

On 10/06/2023 at 19:55, Rashidi said:

2. To minimize space and time for attackers, I need to know my own team well. I tend to sign players with high aggression. stamina and work rate. These are the basic attributes for gegen pressing or any kind of system that requires your team to work hard. Even a low block system needs players who are willing to go in when needed, and aggression is an attribute I have for EVERY player on the team, or try. When strikers have high aggression they are like a dog after a bone, once they get close to the player, they don't let go. Same applies in defensive midfield or central midfield. If my centre mids have low aggression they are sold, because at least one always needs high aggression.

Yes your right, after I read your comment I was looking at my team and the aggression of my middfield duo was low in comparison with the other teams. So other key attributes Im looking now is Agression, Bravery, Stamina and Work Rate.

On 10/06/2023 at 19:55, Rashidi said:

To create an effective pressing zone, if you are playing gegen pressing or any kind of aggressive compact press, you need to remember that your width settings are very important. If your team is attacking on very wide settings they are further apart from each other. This produces gaps and players zonal marking areas will not overlap. An opposition player could go from one zone to another without being picked up by two players, until he is well inside the defensive third. To play gegen pressing or a compact block very well, we need the covering distance to be shorter, so I normally play on narrower widths when I am attacking so that my team doesn't have far to track when more than 1 player is expected to close down the opposition.

Very well explained! Was always struggling with the narrow - wide setting.

On 10/06/2023 at 19:55, Rashidi said:

3. To transition quickly you generally want your attacking players attacking space. If you are defending deep, then having those players ready to bolt off is important, you can also set things up well with the right roles and duties. For example, an AF is good for mid, low block systems because he is a focal point of attacks. Add the PI "take more risks" and "dribble more" and you have a role that is likely to look to break offside traps more often. The take more risks PI instructs a player to take more chances with movement and passing.

The PI take more risk only influence the way the player pass the ball?

On 10/06/2023 at 19:55, Rashidi said:

4. The most common mistakes I have seen people make:
a. Having no aggressive players in the compact zone where they are trying to win the ball
b. Poor linkups to allow for transitions in the midfield phase. Too often from the saves i have received, the common problem rests in the midfield transition. Most people fail to get good attacking transitions happening because their tactical struction, ie roles and duties is often wrong.
c. Using TIs and PIs without considering the overall impact

a. I didnt know that agression can have so many impact on the way you play.
Thank you for commenting on this topic @Rashidi. Love your content!

June 21, 2023

@Cloud9

How would you go about setting this up in a 442? Something like this?

Edited June 21, 2023 by Guest

Cloud9 · June 21, 2023

3 hours ago, BlitzkriegBob25 said:

@Cloud9

How would you go about setting this up in a 442? Something like this?

This looks good! I'd tweak the width to narrow to play to your strengths in a 4-4-2, @Rashidi explains in detail above how that can influence pressing. With a 4-4-2 you've got a lot of players in position to execute this style of play and create effective pressing traps (I would start by sticking "mark tighter" on the two wide midfielders and making adjustments from there). On that note, I'd also consider running a PF instead of the TF. He''ll hold up the ball still, and play will be a bit less direct, but he'll play to your strengths and you can get a bit of an Athletico Madrid box between the CMs and Strikers. The TF will still work fine, but it might end up feeling a bit one dimensional on the counter. I think a positive mentality could help you out as well w/ this setup, and I'd consider dropping "pass into space" for a 3-4 players to be instructed to "take more risks."

Other thing that sticks out is only two roles are on attack, having another player looking to be a threat could be nice. Sticking the WB on a on the right side would be on option, or perhaps even a WP(a) on the right could help provide that edge.

I've been experimenting with a 4-4-2 counter attack myself utilizing a SV/Regista double pivot which has been quite fun

Edited June 21, 2023 by Cloud9

June 21, 2023

1 hour ago, Cloud9 said:

This looks good! I'd tweak the width to narrow to play to your strengths in a 4-4-2, @Rashidi explains in detail above how that can influence pressing. With a 4-4-2 you've got a lot of players in position to execute this style of play and create effective pressing traps (I would start by sticking "mark tighter" on the two wide midfielders and making adjustments from there). On that note, I'd also consider running a PF instead of the TF. He''ll hold up the ball still, and play will be a bit less direct, but he'll play to your strengths and you can get a bit of an Athletico Madrid box between the CMs and Strikers. The TF will still work fine, but it might end up feeling a bit one dimensional on the counter. I think a positive mentality could help you out as well w/ this setup, and I'd consider dropping "pass into space" for a 3-4 players to be instructed to "take more risks."

Other thing that sticks out is only two roles are on attack, having another player looking to be a threat could be nice. Sticking the WB on a on the right side would be on option, or perhaps even a WP(a) on the right could help provide that edge.

I've been experimenting with a 4-4-2 counter attack myself utilizing a SV/Regista double pivot which has been quite fun

How are you setting up your flanks in that system? I've debated using a double pivot as well, especially after watching a @Rashidi video explaining why. Is it worth setting up a 442 that way? I'd lean towards it for a 4231 but not sure about a 442.

That's so funny re: the TF / PF, only because I'm currently top of the league with Norwich and we have 3 strong Target Men in Sargent, Pukki, and Adam Idah. We are set up in a 433 with a WTM and it's working great, but it's the start of January and I'm starting to prepare for promotion and how we will play next season. So I thought a 442 with a TM would be the safest bet. Ha. I want to focus on developing Idah and play him there moving forward. He and Sargent can both play PF though, so I'll probably experiment with that (Pukki is more of an AF so I'll shift him there.)

But since we are top of the league now and won't be attacked as much, a Positive mentality is probably a good idea too. Thanks!

Edited June 21, 2023 by Guest

Rashidi · June 22, 2023

When playing a 442, for me I like aggressive, hardworking mids. This gives me the option of using a double pivot CM-S, which is my preferred pivot because it requires one to consider a players attributes and traits for the role. I know quite a few people who have found success playing a dual support pivot.

Ultimately it all rests on the choice of roles and duties and other team instructions you might use.

Cloud9 · June 22, 2023

9 hours ago, BlitzkriegBob25 said:

How are you setting up your flanks in that system? I've debated using a double pivot as well, especially after watching a @Rashidi video explaining why. Is it worth setting up a 442 that way? I'd lean towards it for a 4231 but not sure about a 442.

That's so funny re: the TF / PF, only because I'm currently top of the league with Norwich and we have 3 strong Target Men in Sargent, Pukki, and Adam Idah. We are set up in a 433 with a WTM and it's working great, but it's the start of January and I'm starting to prepare for promotion and how we will play next season. So I thought a 442 with a TM would be the safest bet. Ha. I want to focus on developing Idah and play him there moving forward. He and Sargent can both play PF though, so I'll probably experiment with that (Pukki is more of an AF so I'll shift him there.)

But since we are top of the league now and won't be attacked as much, a Positive mentality is probably a good idea too. Thanks!

This was how I set up with the SV/RGA pivot. Not a finished article, just what I was playing around with in game.

WTM is a great role, glad to see it getting some use Might consider bringing in a forward with a burst of pace for the step up to the premier league.

Idah looks like a potential great AF if you can get his off the ball up a bit. If you're looking for a pressing forward/WTM there's a guy at Spezia, M'bala Nzola, who you can pick up for cheap if they go down in your save! I'm a big fan of high aggression/good personality players for those facilitating striker positions.

June 22, 2023

13 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

This was how I set up with the SV/RGA pivot. Not a finished article, just what I was playing around with in game.

WTM is a great role, glad to see it getting some use Might consider bringing in a forward with a burst of pace for the step up to the premier league.

Idah looks like a potential great AF if you can get his off the ball up a bit. If you're looking for a pressing forward/WTM there's a guy at Spezia, M'bala Nzola, who you can pick up for cheap if they go down in your save! I'm a big fan of high aggression/good personality players for those facilitating striker positions.

Good to know re: Nzola! I'll keep my eyes out for him. Idah is actually doing really great as my backup AF, on top of his speed he's also big and strong so I'm trying to maximize how I use him. I guess I could always keep the 433 if need be and keep him as my AF, I don't need to force a Target role on him if he's better as an AF.

I see you're pressing a bit more in your TI, is that because your wingers are deeper?

Cloud9 · June 23, 2023

8 hours ago, BlitzkriegBob25 said:

I see you're pressing a bit more in your TI, is that because your wingers are deeper?

I didn't want to become too passive, and yea the wingers sitting deeper is definitely part of that.

In the 4-4-2 the players are set up to press/have defensive cover (unlike the asymmetrical 4-3-3 above which is more about exploiting space than defensive solidity). We're trying to win the ball back between the double pivot and the striker pairing so I've asked both of the wide midfielders to mark tighter. That's the part of the pitch where we've got a numerical advantage (and we've gone narrow) so I want to take advantage of our compact setup. I've put quite hard hitting players in the double pivot despite the fancy roles (Athletico style: technical and mean). If the press goes poorly there's enough bodies in the way/structure to cover for an error.

On a side note: I've been going back and forth on a WB(s) vs a WB(a) for the left back, but I'm leaning towards WB(s) w/ attacking traits loaded onto him. It's a really adventurous pivot, so I think the more structured back 4 could help out.

The IW is surprisingly quite the star of the show here, despite the fancy double pivot. He moves into that open half space when he inverts. If the RGA picks him out (they look for much more direct passes) he's got the WB/SV moving up on each side of him and the forward combo dropping back/running behind. I quite liked the WP(a) in the traditional 4-4-2 so I was taking a bit of inspiration from that roles movement inside. With the deep double pivot/movement around him, the IW(s) really has license to kill. Quite a cool combination

I was originally trying to get play out from the back to work w/this counter attack setup, but I think in the current ME, it's best to wait for next years changes. Currently a high pressing team will catch you out and it's quite difficult to avoid. Things like baiting a press aren't properly in the ME, and the importance of a ball playing GK is still lacking (they hoof the ball for fun).

Usually I like to match the duty of roles that move up the pitch together, SV/W here (MEZ/W etc) but it felt necessary to give the winger a bit more freedom to get forward on the break. SV on attack with him was too much for a double roaming pivot.

In terms of pure effectiveness of counter attack systems this year: I've found a 3-4-2-1 to be all powerful. The reworks to the double pivot, and the emphasis on the box midfield (I ran 4 dm players in those roles), make you extremely difficult to break down. BPD are super for the counter attack and w/dribble more you can use two on the outside of the back 3 to pretty devastating effect (all while having extra cover from the WB roles in wide areas). I used that system to win my first cup from the Championship this year (the league cup !) which was really rewarding.

I'd be interested if you've had any success running a counter attack formation w/out an AF! It seems really difficult to get away from unfortunately, particularly in putting that constant pressure on the backline of the opposition.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Cloud9

toshimitzou1 · June 23, 2023

@Cloud9

How do your wide midfielders fare in the midfield strata in the 442 DM? For a counter -attacking style, i've found having them in the AM strata for more dangerous on the break. For this reason I've been running this in my most recent season:

It is working well, punching well above our weight, (predicted to finish bottom again) but I would be interested in running the LM/RM in the midfield strata as my IF gets abysmal ratings!!!

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How to soak up pressure and hit a team on the counter as an underdog? [UPDATED for FM24]

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