Tactical question 4-2-3-1 DM Benfica

[McGreen]

Daily reader, no poster but now I wanted to make an exeption.
I'm playing Benfica on FM23, in a 4-2-3-1 shape.
I'm doing great, sitting second after Porto with no loses so far (11 wins - 4 draws). Ramos banging goals with his eyes closed (more goals than apperances). Going to the next round in the champions league (which is against Bayern ...) and still in the cup.
Now I'm struggling against teams that play 3-4-3 DM (is this standard now for AI? Cause I'm encountering this a lot!)
I have a lot of shots on goal, but only a few on target (either blocked, high and wide, ...). I can't seem to penetrate their defenses ...
Last match I was playing the 12th in the league away (forgot the name and since I'm not at my home computer), they played in a 3-4-3 DM a they had like +60% possesion, had a lot of chances, scored a nice team goal and I scored a lucky one.

What can I do to beat there defenses? Play wider? Faster? More direct?
I'm not complaining, I'm doing great but it's frustrating that I can't win against the weaker opposition.

Home made tactic:
GK: goalkeeper on defend (Vlachodimos)
DL: CWB on support (Guerreiro - Grimaldo  went to Man City :-()
DCL: BPD on defend (Otamendi)
DCR: CD on defend (Verissimo)
DR: WB on attack (Bah)
DML: DM on support (Aursnes)
DMR: Anchor (Luis)
AML: IW on support (Schjelderup)
AMC: AM on support (Rafa)
AMR: IW on support (Neres)
ST: AF (Ramos)

No extra PI's.
TI's: Shorter passing, play out of defense, counter-press, counter, high press, higher defensive line, more often & prevent  short GK distribution.

[LatexGuru]

343 DM is a pretty solid formation defensively, 3 cb + 2 wb + 2 dm, 7 players in defensive tiers.

Also 343 DM is pretty good to attack in transition since 2 winger are already in higher position.

The weakness of 343 is that it only deploy 2 defensive midfielders, this is the weakness u can utilize. I think currently your problems are two DM roles, anchorman with Dm on support, they are not really aggressive in possession. Against 343 DM u should be bravely push your two DM forward to play higher up thte pitch and overload their centre.

Based on the reasoning above, I would suggest changing Anchorman to either VOLs or RPMs based on your player attributes, and maybe play a little bit narrower.

Please do not play wider or faster or more direct, it will just fall into the trap of 343. Wider will be vulnerable if the 343 ask to stop crosses, faster will give the ball easily to the opposition and more direct sometimes lose possession aimlessly.

Pushing two DM up using different roles can help. Constantly giving opposition pressure and your midfield park at the edge of opposition box can help u to score.

 

[Cloud9]

10 hours ago, McGreen said:

Daily reader, no poster but now I wanted to make an exeption.
I'm playing Benfica on FM23, in a 4-2-3-1 shape.
I'm doing great, sitting second after Porto with no loses so far (11 wins - 4 draws). Ramos banging goals with his eyes closed (more goals than apperances). Going to the next round in the champions league (which is against Bayern ...) and still in the cup.
Now I'm struggling against teams that play 3-4-3 DM (is this standard now for AI? Cause I'm encountering this a lot!)
I have a lot of shots on goal, but only a few on target (either blocked, high and wide, ...). I can't seem to penetrate their defenses ...
Last match I was playing the 12th in the league away (forgot the name and since I'm not at my home computer), they played in a 3-4-3 DM a they had like +60% possesion, had a lot of chances, scored a nice team goal and I scored a lucky one.

What can I do to beat there defenses? Play wider? Faster? More direct?
I'm not complaining, I'm doing great but it's frustrating that I can't win against the weaker opposition.

Home made tactic:
GK: goalkeeper on defend (Vlachodimos)
DL: CWB on support (Guerreiro - Grimaldo  went to Man City :-()
DCL: BPD on defend (Otamendi)
DCR: CD on defend (Verissimo)
DR: WB on attack (Bah)
DML: DM on support (Aursnes)
DMR: Anchor (Luis)
AML: IW on support (Schjelderup)
AMC: AM on support (Rafa)
AMR: IW on support (Neres)
ST: AF (Ramos)

No extra PI's.
TI's: Shorter passing, play out of defense, counter-press, counter, high press, higher defensive line, more often & prevent  short GK distribution.

To break down opposition in general I would go wider, lower the tempo, and hit crosses early with high lines. Turn on counter press in moments of the game. Identify where the opposition is weak and target a side/player.

They're giving up possession in the middle of the park with their formation, so you should be able to control the tempo with ease. A box 4 midfield could be particularly effective here to overload the double pivot.

Changes for your own tactic:

• Ramos won't perform on high lines as an AF- there's not space for him to run into. Try a PF(a).
• Sweeper keeper will help you with a high defensive line from getting caught on the break
• CWB can work but that and an WB(a) can leave you defensively exposed at the back. I would consider running a FB(s) to compliment one of those roles. Guerrero is a special attacking talent so I would prioritize him as an CWB(s/a).
• Not a huge fan of an Anchor to partner your DM(s). Luis is pretty technical anyways I think so you could try just running to DM(S/D) combo and tinker with their PIs. This is just personal preference but it'll help you control the game. 
• When you're breaking down the opposition you can have the AMC roam from position, particularly with two DMs behind him. 
• No playmaker is fine, but I'd make sure you're doing individualized passing instructions, "more direct" "less direct" etc. This will help you keep possession like you mention you struggled with and launch killer passes more successfully.
• One of the reasons you're having trouble breaking down opposition is neither of your IW(s) is being given license to attack. Switch one of them to an IW(a) role. 
• Turn off prevent short gk distribution.

 Just be patient and control the match. Tinker with your tactic if they've got an especially dangerous and quick player you need to deal with from the opposition. Man mark/press/tackle hard (depending on the situation) whoever will be launching the key passes from their formation. Identifying the weak link in their backline to bully and go after can be pivotal as well. 

 

Edited April 19, 2023 by Cloud9

[McGreen]

Thanks for the replies, I'll try  to make some changes tonight.

My tactical idea is/was:
- Let the backs fly up the wings. With Guerreiro & Bah the have very attacking minded backs (with solid back-ups).
- Double DM pivot to cover for the wingbacks
     * DM/s covering the CWB/s
     * Anchor covering for the even more attacking WB/A
- I had mixed succes with an AP/s (or AP/A) in the AMR position. Joao Mario was the player I was positioning there, but I can't seem to find the best role for him.
- With the AP/s (or IW/s) and WB/a on the right wing, we could create an overload, with Ramos lurking in the box and Schjelderup surging in from the left and Guerreiro holding the width. Even the DM's lurk at the edge of the box (I was suprised by the Anchor to get so high up the pitch).

But this tactic isn't working (well) against the 3-4-3 DM.
I'll look into this to get more bodies forward centrally.
Maybe one regista and one CM/d or DM/s and have both WB on support? With stretching the field a bit and focus down the middle...

Can I ask why to turn off prevent short gk distribution?

I'll (try) to keep you posted.

Edited April 20, 2023 by McGreen

[Cloud9]

6 hours ago, McGreen said:

Thanks for the replies, I'll try  to make some changes tonight.

My tactical idea is/was:
- Let the backs fly up the wings. With Guerreiro & Bah the have very attacking minded backs (with solid back-ups).
- Double DM pivot to cover for the wingbacks
     * DM/s covering the CWB/s
     * Anchor covering for the even more attacking WB/A
- I had mixed succes with an AP/s (or AP/A) in the AMR position. Joao Mario was the player I was positioning there, but I can't seem to find the best role for him.
- With the AP/s (or IW/s) and WB/a on the right wing, we could create an overload, with Ramos lurking in the box and Schjelderup surging in from the left and Guerreiro holding the width. Even the DM's lurk at the edge of the box (I was suprised by the Anchor to get so high up the pitch).

But this tactic isn't working (well) against the 3-4-3 DM.
I'll look into this to get more bodies forward centrally.
Maybe one regista and one CM/d or DM/s and have both WB on support? With stretching the field a bit and focus down the middle...

Can I ask why to turn off prevent short gk distribution?

I'll (try) to keep you posted.

Hm If you want heavy wing play, then you'll be looking for halfback in the DM role. 

Difficult to prevent distribution against a back 5 and a double pivot, also I just don't think it functions very well in the ME. Playing out from the back is really hard if not impossible against a high press so it's always almost preferable to have them pass to the CBs than potentially launch a counter attack.

[pedrosantos]

On 19/04/2023 at 09:50, McGreen said:

Daily reader, no poster but now I wanted to make an exeption.
I'm playing Benfica on FM23, in a 4-2-3-1 shape.
I'm doing great, sitting second after Porto with no loses so far (11 wins - 4 draws). Ramos banging goals with his eyes closed (more goals than apperances). Going to the next round in the champions league (which is against Bayern ...) and still in the cup.
Now I'm struggling against teams that play 3-4-3 DM (is this standard now for AI? Cause I'm encountering this a lot!)
I have a lot of shots on goal, but only a few on target (either blocked, high and wide, ...). I can't seem to penetrate their defenses ...
Last match I was playing the 12th in the league away (forgot the name and since I'm not at my home computer), they played in a 3-4-3 DM a they had like +60% possesion, had a lot of chances, scored a nice team goal and I scored a lucky one.

What can I do to beat there defenses? Play wider? Faster? More direct?
I'm not complaining, I'm doing great but it's frustrating that I can't win against the weaker opposition.

Home made tactic:
GK: goalkeeper on defend (Vlachodimos)
DL: CWB on support (Guerreiro - Grimaldo  went to Man City :-()
DCL: BPD on defend (Otamendi)
DCR: CD on defend (Verissimo)
DR: WB on attack (Bah)
DML: DM on support (Aursnes)
DMR: Anchor (Luis)
AML: IW on support (Schjelderup)
AMC: AM on support (Rafa)
AMR: IW on support (Neres)
ST: AF (Ramos)

No extra PI's.
TI's: Shorter passing, play out of defense, counter-press, counter, high press, higher defensive line, more often & prevent  short GK distribution.

You did not mentioned what mentality are you using ! I will guess it's either positive or attacking. Now if the 12th in the league is having 60% it could be your players are loosing the ball quicker than it's supposed and this could be because they are taking excessive risks (higher mentalities), or not closing down (line of engagement, close down more or much more). It's not just about player roles and duties, check what is happening during the match.

[McGreen]

35 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

Hm If you want heavy wing play, then you'll be looking for halfback in the DM role. 

Difficult to prevent distribution against a back 5 and a double pivot, also I just don't think it functions very well in the ME. Playing out from the back is really hard if not impossible against a high press so it's always almost preferable to have them pass to the CBs than potentially launch a counter attack.

Makes sense for turning off 'prevent short gk distribution' against a back 5 and a double pivot since I'm outnumbered.

[McGreen]

30 minutes ago, pedrosantos said:

You did not mentioned what mentality are you using ! I will guess it's either positive or attacking. Now if the 12th in the league is having 60% it could be your players are loosing the ball quicker than it's supposed and this could be because they are taking excessive risks (higher mentalities), or not closing down (line of engagement, close down more or much more). It's not just about player roles and duties, check what is happening during the match.

I play on balanced mentality, even then they had 60% possesion ...
Changed the mentality after I conceded the goal.
I'll try to implement the suggetions above and see how it goes.

[McGreen]

Last match played was against Sporting at home.
We won 4-0.
No problems I hear you say? Wrong!
We had 20 shots - 8 on target, Xg of 3,48 but only a possession of 40%.
What's the problem then?
Well they had 60% possession with 9 players, they had 2 red cards ...
Guess what? They played a 3-4-3 DM.

I changed the tactics a bit.
Instead of the DM i used a volante on support, played wider to stretch their defense, played slower, Ramos as PF instead of AF, SK(d) instead of Ke(d), ...
Still they had 60% at the end of the match with 11 vs 9 ...

What would have happened if we played 11 vs 11 all game? Guess we'll never know?

Match stats

 

Base tactic (I start every game with this and make adjustments according to the opposite):

Edited April 22, 2023 by McGreen

[pedrosantos]

You might know what will happen, just restart before that match, if you feel there's a need to. On the other hand, although you did not dominate possession, you dominated the rest and won 4-0, so why is there even a problem ?

[crusadertsar]

On 22/04/2023 at 14:18, McGreen said:

Last match played was against Sporting at home.
We won 4-0.
No problems I hear you say? Wrong!
We had 20 shots - 8 on target, Xg of 3,48 but only a possession of 40%.
What's the problem then?
Well they had 60% possession with 9 players, they had 2 red cards ...
Guess what? They played a 3-4-3 DM.

I changed the tactics a bit.
Instead of the DM i used a volante on support, played wider to stretch their defense, played slower, Ramos as PF instead of AF, SK(d) instead of Ke(d), ...
Still they had 60% at the end of the match with 11 vs 9 ...

What would have happened if we played 11 vs 11 all game? Guess we'll never know?

Match stats

 

Base tactic (I start every game with this and make adjustments according to the opposite):

There is no mystery here. They parked the bus against you, passing the ball around between their defenders and DMs. Kept it in their own half for most of the game. But you still managed to win the game so don't see a big problem. It's worse when you get this behaviour from AI and then get that frustrating tie. Count yourself lucky.

Edited April 25, 2023 by crusadertsar