The Fox & The Lion: Fable of Two FM Roles (or Guide To Getting The Best From False 9 and Poacher)

[jc577]

On 14/04/2023 at 18:20, crusadertsar said:

It is mainly to enhance the "countermovements" that I talked about in the last update.

Great thread as per! I've been thinking about countermovements/third man runs a lot lately... what are your thoughts on a trident (2AM's, 1ST) of: SS-A, AP-S, CF-A/Poacher? My thinking is that we might see some varied countermovements like: AP plays a direct ball to CF/P who lays it on for SS. The split duties between the two AM's might also open up space for the ST to drop in allowing a burst from the AM, or an SV can step up to overload central areas and compress their defence, leaving the WB's free for a cross.

Completely theorising right now 

[crusadertsar]

21 minutes ago, jc577 said:

Great thread as per! I've been thinking about countermovements/third man runs a lot lately... what are your thoughts on a trident (2AM's, 1ST) of: SS-A, AP-S, CF-A/Poacher? My thinking is that we might see some varied countermovements like: AP plays a direct ball to CF/P who lays it on for SS. The split duties between the two AM's might also open up space for the ST to drop in allowing a burst from the AM, or an SV can step up to overload central areas and compress their defence, leaving the WB's free for a cross.

Completely theorising right now 

Striker and two AMCs would probably work very well. Like you said it should create some very nice movements and passing combos between the three. But the reason why I stuck with two strikers and AMC is because I wanted to make poacher and False 9 work together. In a way False 9 should work a lot like AP dropping into area usually reserved for advanced playmaker.

[jc577]

2 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Striker and two AMCs would probably work very well. Like you said it should create some very nice movements and passing combos between the three. But the reason why I stuck with two strikers and AMC is because I wanted to make poacher and False 9 work together. In a way False 9 should work a lot like AP dropping into area usually reserved for advanced playmaker.

For sure, I guess in some ways the countermovements are even more exaggerated as the F9 starts high and drops deep, but the Poacher stays high and pins the CB's, lovely stuff! I'm debating between using a CF-A, DLF-A or Poacher in this 3421, what do you think would work best? I think the ST 100% needs to drop off slightly to bring the AM's into the game, but also occupy the CB's as per your Poacher.

[crusadertsar]

8 minutes ago, jc577 said:

For sure, I guess in some ways the countermovements are even more exaggerated as the F9 starts high and drops deep, but the Poacher stays high and pins the CB's, lovely stuff! I'm debating between using a CF-A, DLF-A or Poacher in this 3421, what do you think would work best? I think the ST 100% needs to drop off slightly to bring the AM's into the game, but also occupy the CB's as per your Poacher.

There are a number of combos that could work. As long as you don't have them doing similar tasks. For example, personally I don't like having all three of my trident players moving into channels. Like with Poacher and False 9 you could tell them to stay central, or have False 9 drift wide. While AMC is instructed to attack the channel that should open up more due to the positioning of the two strikers.

[jc577]

22 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

There are a number of combos that could work. As long as you don't have them doing similar tasks. For example, personally I don't like having all three of my trident players moving into channels. Like with Poacher and False 9 you could tell them to stay central, or have False 9 drift wide. While AMC is instructed to attack the channel that should open up more due to the positioning of the two strikers.

Interesting, so on that basis I feel like (assuming the AP remains constant) that would work well are: AM-A - CF-A, and SS - Poacher. The first combo the AM stays more central as the CF roams about, second combo is the reverse! Lots of options. 

[mikcheck]

@crusadertsarit's always entertaining and interesting to read your tactical thoughts, so thank you. I also  wonder how many saves you already  started, since you already opened a quite few tactical threads  (not complaining!)

Regarding the poacher role, did you already play against teams who park the bus and sit deep? I always had in my mind that a poacher can be really effective against teams who leave space behind, but not so much against defensive teams, since it's not a mobil role.

[HurkaDurk69]

On 14/04/2023 at 20:03, WhyMe said:

Hi Crusadersar,

Great thread, it gave me some inspiration for a new save and tactical challenge.  I've always stayed away from any variety of 4-4-2/4-2-4 as I always struggled to make it work and this gave me the impetus to have another shot and its going much better this time!

I did have one question though, have you noticed that the role suitability ratings appear to be bit odd for false 9s.  For example I have this youngster who performs fantastically for me as a false 9 (13 goals in 17 games after I signed him in January).  However, the game rates him as 3.5 stars for DLF, but only 1.5 stars for false 9, despite having marginally better attributes for a false 9 (most of them are similar).  Is this a bug or is there a reason?  Like I say its not effecting his performances, it just means he gets irritated with playing in a role that he doesn't suit, yet he clearly suits it at least as well as the DLF-s (at least as near as I can tell given the attributes both want).

I'd appreciate any insight you can provide :-)

the reason why is because a F9 needs some some points in AM for him to get a high score(for some reason)

[WhyMe]

On 16/04/2023 at 17:38, HurkaDurk69 said:

the reason why is because a F9 needs some some points in AM for him to get a high score(for some reason)

that is very interesting!  Have you tested this with position training by any chance?  How much do they need, is a couple of points enough for example?

[HurkaDurk69]

On 17/04/2023 at 19:57, WhyMe said:

that is very interesting!  Have you tested this with position training by any chance?  How much do they need, is a couple of points enough for example?

Me and a lot people have tested this with the editor.

 

I created a good F9 with the editor, was under 110CA even though I put a value of 155. Raised the AMC role suitability to 12, and it raised it from 110 to 135.

Having AMC be really high value is not great either since the game will think of him AMC instead of a ST making the weight for each attribute different meaning a player can get worse if his attributes fit an AMC better

 

I can take a photo of the player I made later to show you since I am bad at explaining

[Lordluap]

On 16/04/2023 at 00:14, crusadertsar said:

Striker and two AMCs would probably work very well. Like you said it should create some very nice movements and passing combos between the three. But the reason why I stuck with two strikers and AMC is because I wanted to make poacher and False 9 work together. In a way False 9 should work a lot like AP dropping into area usually reserved for advanced playmaker.

I've had massive success over the years using an F9 (stay wider instruction) and an AF with a SS centrally behind.  The F9 creates and the SS and AF bang the goals in.  I know you're using a Poacher so swap the AF with the P and see how that goes?

[crusadertsar]

3 hours ago, Lordluap said:

I've had massive success over the years using an F9 (stay wider instruction) and an AF with a SS centrally behind.  The F9 creates and the SS and AF bang the goals in.  I know you're using a Poacher so swap the AF with the P and see how that goes?

I am already telling my False9 to go wide so might just try out the AF to see that works