Attributes, stars and performance. Time for a change.

[SimonHoddle]

As with every version, and most things in life, I started off disliking 23 and slowly beginning to really enjoy it. 
 

I always like to discuss ways of fundamentally changing the game and my thoughts turn to attributes. Something doesn’t add up. If a player has low attributes, low stars, but is hitting a 7.5 performance week in week out, surely his attributes must rise. When scouting the opposition and you see a CF with low finishing but he is banging in the goals, surely his finishing attribute should be much higher. 
 

what is an attribute? Is it the average rating your scout/ coach gives? Is it your opinion of the player? Is it a fact that this is what they’re capable of? 

attributes seem too inflexible. Ambiguous in their importance (as form fluctuates but attributes are relatively static). And don’t marry up with ⭐️ very effectively. And in a game yearning for realism…..how realistic are they.

obviously attributes, as in FIFA, have been a key part of the game from Day 1. We all wait to see what scores our favourite players get in new versions. But are they too unrealistic? Too static? And is it time they’re ditched?

 

[herne79]

Viewing either single attributes in isolation from other attributes, or all attributes in isolation from everything else at your club (other players, morale, form, tactics, cohesion etc) is the issue imo.

Strikers with low Finishing can still bang in loads of goals if other aspects come together to aid their goal scoring.  Our team can still outperform their attributes and exceed expectations if we manage that team effectively.  The opposite is also true of course.

This doesn’t make attributes pointless or unrealistic, they’re one part of the puzzle.  And, as with all parts of the puzzle, can be compensated for (to an extent) in other areas.  A well manage team with a great tactic can make “bad” players look good.  But equally a poorly managed team with a bad tactic can make “good” players look bad.

There’s a couple of interesting threads over on the Tactics forum atm, both from @Cleon and taken from his website.  This one where he details managing his low league club with all player attributes hidden; and this one where he discusses goal scoring even with players with seemingly poor goal scoring ability.  Again, this doesn’t make attributes irrelevant, but rather a complete holistic approach where we can employ strategies to compensate for lacking in other areas.

TL;DR don’t look at attributes (or anything else for that matter) in isolation.

[SimonHoddle]

Great reply and I get what you’re saying. appreciate the links.
 

do you not think that attributes are antiquated though? They are a football gaming formula designed to save time versus the gamer having to watch 50 players in training/ matches every day to slowly ascertain each of their qualities (clearly unrealistic). 
 

would it not be better if they were much more fluid? hidden attributes, form , morale etc play a part. So I want my scout to tell me that eg. the opposition striker is on a 20 finishing right now cos he’s in the happiest time of his career. even if his finishing attribute is 10. 

Would it not be better if they were much broader, a bit like an unscouted player with a range of possibilities? 

Theyre so arbitrary. Both when set by the game researchers and as the game develops. They’re basically untouched for 25 years. Maybe it’s time for a bit of attribute evolution..

Edited February 18, 2023 by SimonHoddle

[phnompenhandy]

Most players are stuck in the past and abide by attributes. Good luck to them.

I concur with Herne - for those of us who've "moved on", the tools and guidance is there.

[Maviarab]

The first thing you need to do is largely ignore them.  The attribute system is there ultimately to give a quick glance of the 'quality' of a player imo.  How else do you differentiate Bob Smith of San Marino to Messi?  There has to be a scoring metric system somewhere.

As for your argument of poor finishing but scoring a lot of goals, sure, dependent on the league.  Stick a guy with 3 finishing in the Premier League and I can pretty much guarantee even with great service, his return rate will be shocking but will still get goals due to statistical law of averages. Hwever, same said forward playing for your local pub team could be an absolute unit.  It's perspective. Let my cat take 100 penalties, she's going to score one of them at some point just by the above.  Attributes are mainly only useful for the level you're at, excluding outliers naturally.

As for stars, people need tor ealise how the star rating actually works, which in fairness, should be explained far better by SI given their push to get new younger players onboard (along with a hundred other things but that's another conversation).  I agree it needs looking at, real managers don't have stats on a page for a player.  Hoqwever, it's a game, so should we really be watching training or if hands off, relying purely on our useless Ass Man?  This is similar to international management in FM, given how ridiculously bad the 3D engine is at showing us what the match engine is calculating, watching games to check a player is next to useless. so comes down again to form and....attributes.

Edited February 18, 2023 by Maviarab

[Dotsworthy]

Its worth noting that newer and inexperienced players do get some value from attributes, especially when they look at the recommended attributes for a position. There is also the question of how people play FM. A lot of various systems have been implemented to provide greater realism and to immerse yourself into to the manager role, but some of these systems can be time consuming and some (including me) find these to be too reliant on constant clicking for minimal results. Attributes are a very quick way of understanding the rough ability of a player.

I can see a scenario where FM Devs eventually pull the trigger on masking the numbers with a more abstract visual graphic, similar to how some skins have implemented them. They've already tried to move away from attributes with the analysis polygon. Using statistics could end up being the realm of the min/max players if they come up with a better system of retaining stats over multiple seasons without slowing the game down. But digging through stats takes time and understand of the game and I don't see a scenario where FM release a game with no attributes and just statistics.

 

[SimonHoddle]

Appreciate the answers. The problem I have is I play Touch and some of the stats are laughably wrong so caught between devil and deep blue sea. Cheers all

[herne79]

11 hours ago, SimonHoddle said:

Great reply and I get what you’re saying. appreciate the links.
 

do you not think that attributes are antiquated though? They are a football gaming formula designed to save time versus the gamer having to watch 50 players in training/ matches every day to slowly ascertain each of their qualities (clearly unrealistic). 
 

would it not be better if they were much more fluid? hidden attributes, form , morale etc play a part. So I want my scout to tell me that eg. the opposition striker is on a 20 finishing right now cos he’s in the happiest time of his career. even if his finishing attribute is 10. 

Would it not be better if they were much broader, a bit like an unscouted player with a range of possibilities? 

Theyre so arbitrary. Both when set by the game researchers and as the game develops. They’re basically untouched for 25 years. Maybe it’s time for a bit of attribute evolution..

Personally I don’t think they’re antiquated and they form a key role, not just in helping identify a player who may (at least on paper) seem to be able to fill a particular position / role, but also how they feed into various aspects of the game, such as the match engine and player development.  I’d also imagine it’s at least fairly realistic to keep them as players these days tend to have all kinds of metrics assigned to them in real life which look at their physical, mental and technical abilities.

I’d also suggest that attributes actually are fluid at the moment.  Form and morale as you mention already have an impact on how a player performs on pitch as will a player’s consistency (amongst other modifiers).  A player may well have 10, 15, whatever for Finishing but the likelihood of him actually playing to that level is heavily influenced already and will alter from match to match.  We just don’t see the value change, even if the ME does.

I think this is perhaps where some people get hold of the wrong end of the stick - it’s not uncommon to see threads/posts of someone bemoaning their striker’s lack of goals when he has a high value for Finishing without fully understanding the numerous factors affecting and modifying his goal scoring ability on a match to match basis.

So yeh I think attributes absolutely do have a place but we can choose to use/abuse/ignore them pretty much as much as we want.  Didn’t there used to be a function in game to change attribute values to coloured bars instead which gave a numeric range?  Still in the game?

Edited February 18, 2023 by herne79

[SimonHoddle]

2 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Personally I don’t think they’re antiquated and they form a key role, not just in helping identify a player who may (at least on paper) seem to be able to fill a particular position / role, but also how they feed into various aspects of the game, such as the match engine and player development.  I’d also imagine it’s at least fairly realistic to keep them as players these days tend to have all kinds of metrics assigned to them in real life which look at their physical, mental and technical abilities.

I’d also suggest that attributes actually are fluid at the moment.  Form and morale as you mention already have an impact on how a player performs on pitch as will a player’s consistency (amongst other modifiers).  A player may well have 10, 15, whatever for Finishing but the likelihood of him actually playing to that level is heavily influenced already and will alter from match to match.  We just don’t see the value change, even if the ME does.

I think this is perhaps where some people get hold of the wrong end of the stick - it’s not uncommon to see threads/posts of someone bemoaning their striker’s lack of goals when he has a high value for Finishing without fully understanding the numerous factors affecting and modifying his goal scoring ability on a match to match basis.

So yeh I think attributes absolutely do have a place but we can choose to use/abuse/ignore them pretty much as much as we want.  Didn’t there used to be a function in game to change attribute values to coloured bars instead which gave a numeric range?  Still in the game?

I’m sure physical attributes, which are very measurable, are scored IRL these days. Clearly the mental ones can’t be scored so that’s unrealistic. Technical is a maybe. I guess it’s done on a much more simplistic 1-5 score on things like passing but (as I said above) the manager and coaching team will have a good idea in their head based on hours of training, which is impossible to replicate in a game. Which makes attributes justifiable to make the game work.

In my perfect FM world the attributes would reflect the players results in training that week. Eg A bad week would mean passing goes from 15 to 8 and a good week it bumps up to 18. It would make selection much more interesting.

im not complaining about my star striker with 19 finishing not finding the next for 10 games but I’d like to see hints of why it’s happening. A training attribute of 10 finishing would start telling a clearer story and make me think twice about picking him.

im not saying I’m right btw. Just wanted to put the oldest dynamic in FM up for debate. Every other facet has changed. But back in the day, the first Champ Man, the game would be impossible without them. It’s radically different now. Maybe they need a new coat of paint 🤔 

[enigmatic]

4 minutes ago, SimonHoddle said:

In my perfect FM world the attributes would reflect the players results in training that week. Eg A bad week would mean passing goes from 15 to 8 and a good week it bumps up to 18. It would make selection much more interesting.

But it would be unrealistic and insane. Nobody thinks a player is one of the better passers in the Premier League one week and someone with no passing ability whatsoever the following week, least of all actual football managers! 

Like, about 95% of the game is ranking footballers by ability, and most gamers are perfectly able to get their heads around the fact that good players have bad games, good finishers can be too limited in their all round game to score much, and you can be Erling Haaland and still do this...

 

[DarJ]

I think the fact that you used strikers with poor finishing to make your point was quite convenient because that’s probably the only role you can get away with having someone who’s below average because all you have to do is give them a lot of chances and they would score at some point. If you did the opposite and tried to prove your point with a GK or central defender it wouldn’t work because you’d see quickly how important having better attributes are.

 

[SimonHoddle]

2 hours ago, enigmatic said:

But it would be unrealistic and insane. Nobody thinks a player is one of the better passers in the Premier League one week and someone with no passing ability whatsoever the following week, least of all actual football managers! 

Like, about 95% of the game is ranking footballers by ability, and most gamers are perfectly able to get their heads around the fact that good players have bad games, good finishers can be too limited in their all round game to score much, and you can be Erling Haaland and still do this...

 

Yh that miss was hilarious. 

Like I say, before you get too excitable, I’m just putting something out there for debate. Out of curiosity. If you saw Son’s performances for Spurs this year in isolation, what do you think his attributes would be? Is it correct to still have his attributes on genius level? I assume his levels of ability in training have dropped too. 
as a spurs fan I’d say his dribbling now is 10, shooting 10, passing 10. The gap between this season and last season was about 7 weeks. 
so, if we’re having an intelligent chat, what is an attribute? Is it an absolute fact? Is it their maximum or average ability? And how on earth can anyone justify Son having world class attributes in 2023? 
IMO they should be more fluid. Because they should represent form. And yes players attributes can fluctuate significantly. Just ask Son, Salah, Mendy at Chelsea, Cancelo etc etc.
 

[DarJ]

15 minutes ago, SimonHoddle said:

as a spurs fan I’d say his dribbling now is 10, shooting 10, passing 10. The gap between this season and last season was about 7 weeks. 

With your logic does a non league striker who scores every week automatically become a premier league quality striker because he scores ever week?

And as others have mentioned, the attributes are already somewhat fluid. There are things like moral, consistency etc that influence a players attributes so for example if a player isn’t consistent but has 15 for passing, he might only have that 15 for 10% of the games he plays, for the other 90% it could be a 13 or 12 

[SimonHoddle]

18 minutes ago, DarJ said:

With your logic does a non league striker who scores every week automatically become a premier league quality striker because he scores ever week?

And as others have mentioned, the attributes are already somewhat fluid. There are things like moral, consistency etc that influence a players attributes so for example if a player isn’t consistent but has 15 for passing, he might only have that 15 for 10% of the games he plays, for the other 90% it could be a 13 or 12 

What on earth has a non-league striker scoring every week got to do with Son becoming a visibly worse player? By every metric Son is worse.

so @DarJwhat is an attribute. Using your example. If this guys passing attribute is 15, what does that actually mean? (Btw I asked that above). If his passing is 12, 90% of the time….surely that’s his attribute. I’ll ask again. Is your attribute your peak ability, your average ability or what? I remember Sky Sports using FM attributes when describing players in the transfer market. They dropped it really quickly because they were so incongruous.
 

and in answer to your out of context point. Yes! If a non-league striker is scoring literally every week, he will get scouted, he could rise up the ladder. Ask Vardy or Ian Wright. Obviously not automatically though. Because the scouts will determine if it’s down to form, the team around him or…..his attributes!!

[turnip]

Remember that in FM terms, an attribute of 10 is still incredibly good in relation to the average person. A player with 10 Pace is going to out-pace basically anyone who isn't a professional athlete or sportsperson. 

On the other side, though, an attribute of 20 on its own doesn't mean very much. If I'm in League 2 and have a midfielder with 20 Passing, he's probably got major deficiencies elsewhere in his game. Maybe his Technique is rubbish, so he struggles to hit the ball well enough to make the pass. Or his Vision sucks, so he never sees a through-ball. Or he has terrible Decisions, so he rarely chooses the best pass. Or his Composure is appalling, so as soon as an opposition player gets within 10 feet he panics and hoofs it anywhere. Or his First Touch is awful, so every time he receives the ball, he accidentally punts it halfway to Arkhangelsk. Could be his Pace/Acceleration are woeful, so he can never get in a good position to get the ball. Mayhap his Consistency sucks rancid donkey balls and on any given day his Passing is more like a 5. 

Whatever. If all of these other things are good, suffice it to say that the player isn't slumming it in League 2; he's probably in the Premier League.

[phnompenhandy]

3 hours ago, SimonHoddle said:

Is your attribute your peak ability, your average ability or what?

I think this is what Herne was alluding to. As I understand it, it is the peak ability at that time. It can and is modified down by the consistency hidden attribute, morale, form, the form/morale/consistency of the other players in the team, but never modified upwards. This is what confuses so many attribute-driven players and leads to these ranty threads about strikers with high finishing not scoring or defenders with high attributes failing to defend. If I'm in the correct ballpark, maybe this point needs to be got across very strongly to players, because the failure to grasp it is so widespread.

[Sanel]

I like it when people ask for a change but don't provide an alternative. Attributes in numbers are a core aspect of this game since its launch in the 90's, it made the game popular because its simplicity. Also post opener is not aware of hidden attributes.

[phnompenhandy]

20 minutes ago, Sanel said:

I like it when people ask for a change but don't provide an alternative. Attributes in numbers are a core aspect of this game since its launch in the 90's, it made the game popular because its simplicity. Also post opener is not aware of hidden attributes.

Some of us have provided alternatives. We play with no attributes visible and go by stats and the eye-test using customised skins.

[SimonHoddle]

4 hours ago, Sanel said:

I like it when people ask for a change but don't provide an alternative. Attributes in numbers are a core aspect of this game since its launch in the 90's, it made the game popular because its simplicity. Also post opener is not aware of hidden attributes.

That’s not the greatest comment I’ve ever read. I said at the beginning this is to spark discussion.  
 

firstly. My idea is not to replace attributes but to make them much more fluid. 

secondly. Love the way you say I’m not aware of hidden attributes when I am perfectly aware of them. Like I have asked repeatedly…..if someone like Son is consistently playing terribly over many months (note the word consistent so that can’t be put down to hidden inconsistency), when are his official attributes downgraded? If they were more fluid (and represented training) we could identify someone like Son as having a crisis.

thirdly. Just because something was in at the start doesn’t make it untouchable. I agree it offers very accessible simplicity but are they actually realistic?

[SimonHoddle]

4 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

I think this is what Herne was alluding to. As I understand it, it is the peak ability at that time. It can and is modified down by the consistency hidden attribute, morale, form, the form/morale/consistency of the other players in the team, but never modified upwards. This is what confuses so many attribute-driven players and leads to these ranty threads about strikers with high finishing not scoring or defenders with high attributes failing to defend. If I'm in the correct ballpark, maybe this point needs to be got across very strongly to players, because the failure to grasp it is so widespread.

Yh I get what you’re saying. I really don’t mind high attribute players screwing up on the pitch. It’s realistic and proves there is a subtlety to decision making. But, I used the Son example above. His terrible performances this year are utterly consistent. He is consistently crap. So his attributes by now should surely reflect that (I know an update is coming). But what I mean is, much more fluid attributes (based on training) would acknowledge that players can change massively over a short time. It’s not form, it’s not consistency, it’s probably something psychological but…he is a fundamentally worse player. 

im labouring the point now. But. If this was Sons first season in football. How do you think his attributes would score?

Edited February 19, 2023 by SimonHoddle

[DarJ]

@SimonHoddleif I understood correctly, you’re proposing fluid attributes so if we use a striker as an example with finishing of 10 what you’re saying is if he’s on form and scoring goals his attributes not just finishing should go up. Correct me if my assumption is wrong.

My point about a non league players is if what I said above is what you’re proposing how are we supposed to tell the difference between a world class player and a Sunday league footballer in the game since the Sunday league footballer’s attributes can go up if he’s on form etc. 
The point I was driving home is that attributes are in the game to tell us how good a player is thus, the level he can play at. While your striker with 9 for all attributes might be the Zlatan Ibrahimovic of your Gloucester City team it doesn’t mean he will be the same for a team in the premier league. It just means he is  very good for that level of football 

[phnompenhandy]

3 minutes ago, SimonHoddle said:

Yh I get what you’re saying. I really don’t mind high attribute players screwing up on the pitch. It’s realistic and proves there is a subtlety to decision making. But, I used the Son example above. His terrible performances this year are utterly consistent. He is consistently crap. So his attributes by now should surely reflect that (I know an update is coming). But what I mean is, much more fluid attributes (based on training) would acknowledge that players can change massively over a short time. It’s not form, it’s not consistency, it’s probably something psychological but…he is a fundamentally worse player. 

im labouring the point now. But. If this was Sons first season in football. How do you think his attributes would score?

You're making a very interesting suggestion. I'm not sure what to make of it at the moment. Regarding Son, I suppose people would say "form is temporary, class is permanent" - and attributes reflect class. I kind of like that idea of some mechanism in the game allowing for a longer-term deterioration in 'class' other than just reassessing attributes in major updates. Maybe your assman comments that Son has lost 10% of his edge these last couple of months (and the game mechanics reflect that) and you as a manager have a call to make as to continue playing him until his form returns, or dropping/selling him. In such a scenario, the game will have shaved a few points (ie the 1-100 range) off of a few important attributes, most probably focusing on the mentals). The game could randomise whether his dip in form is more Rashford or more Dele Alli. Yeh, that might work.

Regarding Darj's point, there'd still be a huge gulf between an off-form Son (or Dele Alli for that matter) and a top non-league player.

[DarJ]

9 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

Maybe your assman comments that Son has lost 10% of his edge these last couple of months (and the game mechanics reflect that) and you as a manager have a call to make as to continue playing him until his form returns, or dropping/selling him

Isn’t that somewhat already in the game? (Not the comment of you assistant manager). 
When your GK who has been good all year suddenly starts conceding goals that he would normally save don’t you take him out of the team for some games because of his bad form?

 I agree that a comment from the assistant manager would be nice 

[SimonHoddle]

10 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

You're making a very interesting suggestion. I'm not sure what to make of it at the moment. Regarding Son, I suppose people would say "form is temporary, class is permanent" - and attributes reflect class. I kind of like that idea of some mechanism in the game allowing for a longer-term deterioration in 'class' other than just reassessing attributes in major updates. Maybe your assman comments that Son has lost 10% of his edge these last couple of months (and the game mechanics reflect that) and you as a manager have a call to make as to continue playing him until his form returns, or dropping/selling him. In such a scenario, the game will have shaved a few points (ie the 1-100 range) off of a few important attributes, most probably focusing on the mentals). The game could randomise whether his dip in form is more Rashford or more Dele Alli. Yeh, that might work.

Regarding Darj's point, there'd still be a huge gulf between an off-form Son (or Dele Alli for that matter) and a top non-league player.

I’m relieved I’ve made a half decent point 😂. Was beginning to think I’m mad or stupid.

I do think attributes too static and unrealistic. Class is permanent I get that. And as a Spurs fan I’ll always love Son. But Dele is the perfect example. Actuality I do wonder if he is now non-league level? It might spark his love for game back!

yes to Assman making that comment. Great idea. FM loves its unknowns but IRL there really aren’t any. A manager should and will know everything. Using Son again. Conte knows. He won’t tell us but he knows. The gossip is that he asked to leave last summer but was blocked. But for anyone arguing players don’t change in a short space of time….the gap between seasons was less than 2 months. Golden Boot to clay boots. 

 

[SimonHoddle]

5 minutes ago, DarJ said:

Isn’t that somewhat already in the game? (Not the comment of you assistant manager). 
When your GK who has been good all year suddenly starts conceding goals that he would normally save don’t you take him out of the team for some games because of his bad form?

 I agree that a comment from the assistant manager would be nice 

It’s more the vagueness. I like the assman piece. Klopp knows why his team have dropped this season. In FM it feels a bit too much like guesswork 

[phnompenhandy]

I do think the concept of attributes being more fluid, dipping and rising (slightly) according to form is reasonable. I agree with Simon that in real life it would be "visible" to a manager, whereas in the game it's too intangible.

[SimonHoddle]

27 minutes ago, DarJ said:

@SimonHoddleif I understood correctly, you’re proposing fluid attributes so if we use a striker as an example with finishing of 10 what you’re saying is if he’s on form and scoring goals his attributes not just finishing should go up. Correct me if my assumption is wrong.

My point about a non league players is if what I said above is what you’re proposing how are we supposed to tell the difference between a world class player and a Sunday league footballer in the game since the Sunday league footballer’s attributes can go up if he’s on form etc. 
The point I was driving home is that attributes are in the game to tell us how good a player is thus, the level he can play at. While your striker with 9 for all attributes might be the Zlatan Ibrahimovic of your Gloucester City team it doesn’t mean he will be the same for a team in the premier league. It just means he is  very good for that level of football 

Kind of. What I’m saying is….if they are directly linked to training then we get a clear picture of form and happiness in the camp. I also think it would make it more realistic. I guess I’m pushing back on the Attribute as a mechanic for the game unless it has some logical role, other than that of being a way of making the game easier.

yh I understand your point @darj. And it’s a fair one. Like I say. I’m just putting this out for discussion. And it’s a good one! But your point here makes changes v difficult to be fair

[DarJ]

Have you guys played those kind of games where your character has his base stats then there are items or even that modify these stats.

For FM it could look like this: 

- You have excellent moral? Then +0.5 to all attributes for a week

- you trained above a a 7.5? Then +1 to all attributes for a week

- your average rating for the last 5 games is higher then your average rating fit the season? Then you’re on from and +0.8 to all attributes for a week

While these are all just examples I don’t think I want a system like this in the game. The older I get the less time I’m having to play. The last thing I want to start doing before selecting the match squad for a game is getting a calculator out to see who’s got the highest attributes for that particular day

Edited February 19, 2023 by DarJ

[SimonHoddle]

31 minutes ago, DarJ said:

Have you guys played those kind of games where your character has his base stats then there are items or even that modify these stats.

For FM it could look like this: 

- You have excellent moral? Then +0.5 to all attributes for a week

- you trained above a a 7.5? Then +1 to all attributes for a week

- your average rating for the last 5 games is higher then your average rating fit the season? Then you’re on from and +0.8 to all attributes for a week

While these are all just examples I don’t think I want a system like this in the game. The older I get the less time I’m having to play. The last thing I want to start doing before selecting the match squad for a game is getting a calculator out to see who’s got the highest attributes for that particular day

No. I really don’t want that. It’s artificial. Totally unrealistic.

I want the opposite. Ever changing stats (based around a broad theme). The way players train is intrinsic to success and squad building IRL. imagine an 18yo CB who in 1 week of training suddenly jumps from 10 to 18 passing, then jumps back following week (it might be an anomaly or it might be an indication of a future Beckenbauer).

but I’m also strapped for time. And I only have the hours to play Touch. So this might all be pie in the sky and attributes are the simplest, most efficient mechanism to convey ability.

[turnip]

If attributes can change that much, then there's no point having attributes. Which I get is your point, but you are talking around it at times.

What you're talking about is Form affecting how well a player is performing in matches (and Training as well, as far as I can tell). There could be some more clarity from within the game about when - for example - a Defender has had a poor game because of 2 horrific mistakes that led to goals rather than just generally being crap; or a Striker who had a bunch of good efforts saved by the keeper compared to a Striker who couldn't hit a barn door. And even a player in poor form will have moments where they show their class; they're just fewer and further between. 

Form is a tricky one, though, because you only know whether a player's drop in performance is related to Form or Ability if it picks up again. We've all seen players whose performances have dropped off for a long time, only for them to move to a new club and 'rediscover' their form. 

Dele Alli is just the obvious counterpoint here - at his age, there should be no way it's a drop in ability; more likely it's a lack of self-belief and persistent criticism from everywhere affecting a young man whose neurodevelopment has only just stopped (and who has had suffered some appalling man-management).

Edited February 19, 2023 by turnip

[Sanel]

2 hours ago, SimonHoddle said:

That’s not the greatest comment I’ve ever read. I said at the beginning this is to spark discussion.  
 

firstly. My idea is not to replace attributes but to make them much more fluid. 

secondly. Love the way you say I’m not aware of hidden attributes when I am perfectly aware of them. Like I have asked repeatedly…..if someone like Son is consistently playing terribly over many months (note the word consistent so that can’t be put down to hidden inconsistency), when are his official attributes downgraded? If they were more fluid (and represented training) we could identify someone like Son as having a crisis.

thirdly. Just because something was in at the start doesn’t make it untouchable. I agree it offers very accessible simplicity but are they actually realistic?

I don't understand what you're trying to discuss as its already in the game.

- Attributes get a downgrade when a player is performing poor in matches or training

- There are hidden attributes like consistency

- Attribute growth in the game is influenced by different factors like player characteristics, team and so on.

I think you're trying to say that attributes are too high for specific players. They're not, because once again hidden attributes. Also remember when Balotelli was one of the best strikers in the game and the next edition he was downgraded like 90 CA?

[herne79]

1 hour ago, SimonHoddle said:

imagine an 18yo CB who in 1 week of training suddenly jumps from 10 to 18 passing, then jumps back following week (it might be an anomaly or it might be an indication of a future Beckenbauer).

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, that kind of jump won’t necessarily make him a better passer because, as mentioned above, viewing attributes in isolation gives us a false idea.  The player in question would still need to see the pass (Vision); decide to make the pass instead of doing something else with the ball (Decisions); he’d need to not be rushed into making the pass due to, say, an opposition press (Composure, Pressure); and his team mate would actually need to latch onto the pass before it goes astray (First Touch, Anticipation).  And that’s all before we look at other factors such as Consistency, the tactical system, body language and so on.  I might be being too literal here ofc 😉.

However, I kind of see where you’re coming from.  Short term modifiers to how a player might perform are already in the game as discussed above.  We’re just not always too aware of this or the causes therein because attributes (to follow the example) don’t visibly fluctuate.  

Longer term drops in form however, which could be identified by visibly changing attributes, aren’t really modelled in the game (except perhaps for physical changes to players such as severe injury or ageing) until we get database updates from the researchers.  Dele Alli is probably a good recent example of this.  But that wouldn’t address potential future changes beyond the scope of db updates nor how newgen players are treated.  There is the matter of a good player performing badly due to long term tactical inflexibility by us managers - being forced to play an unsuitable position/role with poor supporting players - but that’s not always the fault of the player: he may still be playing/training “well” but his performances are affected because he’s forced into being a round peg in a square hole.

TL;DR we could perhaps have greater visibility for reasons to short term drops in form and something (anything?) to better reflect long term changes without the need for a database update (which wouldn’t affect newgens anyway).

(Of course the flip side to all of this is players gaining ability or form over the long term and how that might be reflected without db updates or for newgens.  But that road can lead into the flexible PA debate which is a whole other can of worms and not for this thread 🤫).

[Sanel]

I also want to mention that masking attributes like irl would make the game too hard. If I remember correctly, some elite teams use FM to scout as well.

[phnompenhandy]

1 hour ago, turnip said:

Dele Alli is just the obvious counterpoint here - at his age, there should be no way it's a drop in ability; more likely it's a lack of self-belief

I think you and herne are mostly articulating my point. The group of attributes that should be most fluid is the mental ones. Things like composure, concentration or decisions are vulnerable to low morale or a poor run of form.

[SimonHoddle]

55 minutes ago, herne79 said:

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, that kind of jump won’t necessarily make him a better passer because, as mentioned above, viewing attributes in isolation gives us a false idea.  The player in question would still need to see the pass (Vision); decide to make the pass instead of doing something else with the ball (Decisions); he’d need to not be rushed into making the pass due to, say, an opposition press (Composure, Pressure); and his team mate would actually need to latch onto the pass before it goes astray (First Touch, Anticipation).  And that’s all before we look at other factors such as Consistency, the tactical system, body language and so on.  I might be being too literal here ofc 😉.

However, I kind of see where you’re coming from.  Short term modifiers to how a player might perform are already in the game as discussed above.  We’re just not always too aware of this or the causes therein because attributes (to follow the example) don’t visibly fluctuate.  

Longer term drops in form however, which could be identified by visibly changing attributes, aren’t really modelled in the game (except perhaps for physical changes to players such as severe injury or ageing) until we get database updates from the researchers.  Dele Alli is probably a good recent example of this.  But that wouldn’t address potential future changes beyond the scope of db updates nor how newgen players are treated.  There is the matter of a good player performing badly due to long term tactical inflexibility by us managers - being forced to play an unsuitable position/role with poor supporting players - but that’s not always the fault of the player: he may still be playing/training “well” but his performances are affected because he’s forced into being a round peg in a square hole.

TL;DR we could perhaps have greater visibility for reasons to short term drops in form and something (anything?) to better reflect long term changes without the need for a database update (which wouldn’t affect newgens anyway).

(Of course the flip side to all of this is players gaining ability or form over the long term and how that might be reflected without db updates or for newgens.  But that road can lead into the flexible PA debate which is a whole other can of worms and not for this thread 🤫).

Absolutely agree on first point. Ofc said player won’t suddenly jump in all attributes (passing, vision, technique etc). It only needs a hint but it will give the manager that exciting eureka moment that we might just have a player to craft here. And then you’ll focus on all the key ingredients that make a great player. But the jeopardy, just like real life, is he might just have happened to have a good week. It will make training results much more interesting…IMO.

Dele is a great case in point. It happens IRL so please can it happen in game as well. And the changes don’t have to be dramatic but if, eg Kane, goes from 19 to 17 finishing in a weekly training session I’ll know he’s not quite on it (morale low, tired, wants to move to City again etc).

it all feels too complicated and I guess that’s why I started the chat to see if this is feasible, workable and, most importantly, popular. I think the answer is No to all 3 😂 

 

[SimonHoddle]

10 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

I think you and herne are mostly articulating my point. The group of attributes that should be most fluid is the mental ones. Things like composure, concentration or decisions are vulnerable to low morale or a poor run of form.

That’s a good point. By the reckoning of some above, attributes are pretty inflexible, maximum capability. It’s all in the mind. So Dele is still 17 off the ball and finishing. And will be until he physically deteriorates. A good manager just needs to unlock that. Annoyingly that means the researchers are wrong to give him low attributes. 

[enigmatic]

Don't understand the logic behind making stuff contingent upon training. Nobody decides whether their fullback is the best or worst tackler in the league by how they got on in yesterday's training match. Conte doesn't suddenly become the only person in the footballing world that doesn't think Harry Kane is a brilliant finisher if he misses a few in training, and he's not going to think Troy Parrott is better if someone sends him a video of him banging in a worldie on loan either.

Want to see how your players are doing in training? There's a training rating for that...

Want to see how they're doing in a match? You can watch it or look at the stats, or just the match rating.

[GreenTriangle]

In fact, what are these player attributes ? They are a basis from which the calculation of each event starts. FM calculates if player X will receive the ball, if he will manage to reach a favorable position, if he will shoot / cross / pass / lose the ball and, possibly, if he (or one of his teammates) will score. If FM, according to an algorithm, evaluates the moment as important, it will generate a graphic representation of the entire sequence of events. In absolutely all calculations these attributes are always used in groups, not isolated, and the calculations are based both on the visible attributes and on a multitude of factors that are sometimes presented explicitly, sometimes only suggested (hidden attributes, personality, individual morale, collective morale, tactical elements, shouts and probably many other factors). This calculation system can generate extremely variable events, this being the reason why a player can score, for example, 4 goals in one match and zero goals in the next 30 matches. However, in the long term (6 months to a year), the game accurately simulates reality in terms of, for example, the number of goals scored in a season by all the teams. This variability is not random but takes into account aspects specific to football in real life.
Considering the above, introducing an additional variability into a system that IS already variable (in a quite realistic way) seems to me completely unnecessary. The fact that the attributes change slowly does not mean that the result, i.e. the generated events, cannot significantly change from match to match, or even more than once during a single match.

[This is a personal opinion actually based on an interpretation of how the game (FM) reacts based on my own decisions and actions. The opinion can be wrong, which is why it should not be considered an "expert's opinion" (lol) but strictly a speculation belonging to an average FM user]

[Domathon]

this is a very insightful thread guys, great information!

[SimonHoddle]

On 19/02/2023 at 23:28, GreenTriangle said:

In fact, what are these player attributes ? They are a basis from which the calculation of each event starts. FM calculates if player X will receive the ball, if he will manage to reach a favorable position, if he will shoot / cross / pass / lose the ball and, possibly, if he (or one of his teammates) will score. If FM, according to an algorithm, evaluates the moment as important, it will generate a graphic representation of the entire sequence of events. In absolutely all calculations these attributes are always used in groups, not isolated, and the calculations are based both on the visible attributes and on a multitude of factors that are sometimes presented explicitly, sometimes only suggested (hidden attributes, personality, individual morale, collective morale, tactical elements, shouts and probably many other factors). This calculation system can generate extremely variable events, this being the reason why a player can score, for example, 4 goals in one match and zero goals in the next 30 matches. However, in the long term (6 months to a year), the game accurately simulates reality in terms of, for example, the number of goals scored in a season by all the teams. This variability is not random but takes into account aspects specific to football in real life.
Considering the above, introducing an additional variability into a system that IS already variable (in a quite realistic way) seems to me completely unnecessary. The fact that the attributes change slowly does not mean that the result, i.e. the generated events, cannot significantly change from match to match, or even more than once during a single match.

[This is a personal opinion actually based on an interpretation of how the game (FM) reacts based on my own decisions and actions. The opinion can be wrong, which is why it should not be considered an "expert's opinion" (lol) but strictly a speculation belonging to an average FM user]

Can’t argue with any of this. Love the opening line, that’s what I wanted to call this thread haha. What is an attribute? 
 

when sky sports used FM attributes in the transfer window to showcase potential signings it was incongruous because there was no context. I would like SI to provide more context, information and explanation about attributes, morale, form etc. But I’d like them to provide more context, information and explanation about a great many things which they seem to be intentionally vague about. So haven’t got my hopes up.

 

 

[Etebaer]

Well, i understand that the detail and amount of attributes to some players seem overdoing or unrealistic but i am none of them.

In the time and age of science, data and ever increasing metrics to have a player become a glass player (gläserner Spieler - dont know if the term exists in english - maybe "player under the magnifying glass of data") that is completely tested and measured about health and performance to such an extend it was deemed never possible bevor this age of time seem to me more fit into an modern data driven approach.

What is impossible to cathegorize - you can mesure things like athletics, health and fatigue to a degree of fractions of a promille accurate.

Mentals and technique is harder to measure but a 20 point rank system seems to fit that rather rough classiication very well and the worse your scouts are the more it is possible that they missjudge a player and he will have slightly sifferent values.

 

I really dont see how taking this attributes away makes the game more realistic - it makes the professional clubs and even most of the semi professional clubs look like instinct driven sunday beer league events.

If any one could argue the attributes could have more or less accuracy - but all things physical can be measured to a m/ol and milliseconds these days - and group them or package some together, display them is everyday work.

 

But to be brutaly honest - a five star rating system like some primitive games have is exactly that - primitive. outdated, and unrealistic in displaying the datadriven approach of todays football that may have worked for 1923 fooball but no more for 2023  not even in tier 5 football as measuring equipment has become that cheap.

 

To me the talk can not be about taking attributes away but how to get them and in what way to display them if any!

Edited February 23, 2023 by Etebaer

[SimonHoddle]

10 hours ago, Etebaer said:

Well, i understand that the detail and amount of attributes to some players seem overdoing or unrealistic but i am none of them.

In the time and age of science, data and ever increasing metrics to have a player become a glass player (gläserner Spieler - dont know if the term exists in english - maybe "player under the magnifying glass of data") that is completely tested and measured about health and performance to such an extend it was deemed never possible bevor this age of time seem to me more fit into an modern data driven approach.

What is impossible to cathegorize - you can mesure things like athletics, health and fatigue to a degree of fractions of a promille accurate.

Mentals and technique is harder to measure but a 20 point rank system seems to fit that rather rough classiication very well and the worse your scouts are the more it is possible that they missjudge a player and he will have slightly sifferent values.

 

I really dont see how taking this attributes away makes the game more realistic - it makes the professional clubs and even most of the semi professional clubs look like instinct driven sunday beer league events.

If any one could argue the attributes could have more or less accuracy - but all things physical can be measured to a m/ol and milliseconds these days - and group them or package some together, display them is everyday work.

 

But to be brutaly honest - a five star rating system like some primitive games have is exactly that - primitive. outdated, and unrealistic in displaying the datadriven approach of todays football that may have worked for 1923 fooball but no more for 2023  not even in tier 5 football as measuring equipment has become that cheap.

 

To me the talk can not be about taking attributes away but how to get them and in what way to display them if any!

I think you’re right. I would be very interested in the scoring system managers and coaches give players IRL. I really don’t think it would be 1-20 precise. Of course each player IRL is as distinct and different as their fingerprints, so attributes (and their hidden exact score) are real.
 

From a mentality perspective how many times have you heard a manager say in defeat “ I’ve learnt a lot about my players today “. Who is ready for battle and who isn’t. I don’t think they have a spreadsheet with 20 determination next to eg (old school) Roy Keanes name. They just know he will give every last drop. 
 

there is room for evolution in attributes to make them more realistic but, having read through the thread, I’m not sure where to start haha. And there are probably bigger priorities such as the ME, interactions and tactics (which I really want updated). And training…..but that’s where attributes chat starts again 🤐

Edited February 23, 2023 by SimonHoddle

[DarJ]

24 minutes ago, SimonHoddle said:

I don’t think they have a spreadsheet with 20 determination next to eg (old school) Roy Keanes name.

True but if you look at it from SI's point of view they are not creating a game only for the hardcore players, if you're a hardcore player you can turn off attributes and rely on coach report or stats or a combination of both, there series on youtube where people do that. SI have to create a game for everyone and they need a way to be able to tell us how good a player is compared to another 

[SimonHoddle]

1 hour ago, DarJ said:

True but if you look at it from SI's point of view they are not creating a game only for the hardcore players, if you're a hardcore player you can turn off attributes and rely on coach report or stats or a combination of both, there series on youtube where people do that. SI have to create a game for everyone and they need a way to be able to tell us how good a player is compared to another 

Agreed. Feels like attributes shouldn’t be the priority!

[DarJ]

4 minutes ago, SimonHoddle said:

Feels like attributes shouldn’t be the priority!

if scout reports were detailed enough and more descriptive I don't thing I would even look at attributes

[bielsadidnothingwrong]

On 18/02/2023 at 04:21, Maviarab said:

As for stars, people need tor ealise how the star rating actually works

this! having to resort to youth players for injuries in one season, I realized that a 1 gold star player can still perform a job for the first team. sometimes, they’ll even surprise you a bit. 

 

2 hours ago, DarJ said:

if scout reports were detailed enough and more descriptive I don't thing I would even look at attributes

I wish the stellar attributes would be pushed into scouting reports. some do like bravery, flair, or finishing, but a more robust scouting report that provides a complete picture created from the attributes of a player would be great. 

[XaW]

3 hours ago, bielsadidnothingwrong said:

this! having to resort to youth players for injuries in one season, I realized that a 1 gold star player can still perform a job for the first team. sometimes, they’ll even surprise you a bit. 

Indeed, and attribute distribution can make a 2 star player much better in a role than a 4 star player even if they both play the same position.

[Rookie Manager]

As someone who can't watch the little matchstick men running around and draw any sensible conclusions about how well they tackled/passed/shot, I think I would like it if the game gave an indication of how well each player was living up to his attributes.

So if a player was making poorer decisions than his Decisions attribute should suggest (for whatever reason - morale, pressure) then his Attribute for Decisions might look like this 15(12). Or perhaps colour-coded; green (good) or orange red purple for poor/bad/diabolical.

Maybe not all of his stats but some of the mental and physical ones where a commentator might reasonably have insight.

"He looked short of pace this week" Pace 10 (5).

Just so that we would not simply know the player has played badly, we would get a little view into where specifically he was poor.

 

 

[SimonHoddle]

17 hours ago, Rookie Manager said:

As someone who can't watch the little matchstick men running around and draw any sensible conclusions about how well they tackled/passed/shot, I think I would like it if the game gave an indication of how well each player was living up to his attributes.

So if a player was making poorer decisions than his Decisions attribute should suggest (for whatever reason - morale, pressure) then his Attribute for Decisions might look like this 15(12). Or perhaps colour-coded; green (good) or orange red purple for poor/bad/diabolical.

Maybe not all of his stats but some of the mental and physical ones where a commentator might reasonably have insight.

"He looked short of pace this week" Pace 10 (5).

Just so that we would not simply know the player has played badly, we would get a little view into where specifically he was poor.

 

 

I think that’s a great idea. The ME comes in for so much criticism but there’s only so much the developers can do to represent real life football. A good compromise would be the above.

[phd_angel]

Not sure I can add much to this discussion but agree that the attribute system is a bit odd. Why 1 to 20 subjectively rated by different staff members?... There should be an easier consensus from 1 to 5 (very poor, below average, average, above average, excellent)?...

Well, there are skins out that that have alternative iconography that replace attribute numbers with colored starts. Never tried them though.

In case, I treat attribute numbers as directional, and also take a look more holistically: technical, mental and physical attributes combined; age, value, historical performance, psychology, etc.