424 Thunder & Lightning

[burnum]

In a previous thread I created a possession-based 433, which I still use when playing with elite clubs. That thread can be found here: 

I like possession football and if I have the players to make it work, that'll always be the way I want my team to play. But not everyone has the luxury to mold the squad to his liking, sometimes you need to play with what you have. When I started a career at my hometown club SC Paderborn (a mid-table club in the German 2nd Division) I didn't have the players to play my favoured possession approach - and it almost got me fired. Using my possession tactics, we stood 16th at the World Cup break. That's when I decided to scrap my approach and go with what fits my players.

 

1. How we got there:

Looking at my team I found that I had a couple of decent strikers but their skill-sets were polar opposites. One of them was tiny and fast, the other one was big and slow. In midfield I didn't have any playmaker-types but a lot of ball-winning type of guys, who could run around and get the ball back. So I tried to base my tactical approach around a pair of hard-working midfielders and a striker duo of polar opposites: a big Target Man ("Thunder") and a small speedster as Advanced Forward ("Lightning").

After almost getting sacked due to my failed possession experiment I installed the new tactics when we were in 16th position at the World Cup break in November. The tactic worked instantly and we were the best team in the league for the second half of the season, managed to work our way up from 16th to 5th. In the next season we won the league and got promoted to the Bundesliga.

 

After promotion I was not afforded a huge transfer budget (around 5M Euros, if I remember correctly), so a huge improvement to the squad was not in the cards. We were expected to finish dead last in the Bundesliga (18th out of 18). I kept faith in my tactics and this happened:

 

After qualifying for the Europa League as the weakest team in the league, we were afforded a budget of 30M Euros. I was able to improve the squad in multiple positions, bringing in players who perfectly fit my tactics. After half a season, we currently lead the league:

 

2.) The tactical approach:

Just like my possession-based approach, I again decided to rotate between 2 different versions of my tactics, based on the opposition's formation. This is my main tactic that I use in most games:

The Wingbacks provide width, the Inside Forwards run at the half spaces and the two forwards are the central threat. A ton of responsibility is given to the two Box-to-Box Midfielders - they need to be able to run their socks off. These 2 guys are the engine of the entire system. However, somewhere along the way I discovered that this system (somewhat unsurprisingly) struggles against narrow formations (e.g. Brazilian Box, Narrow Diamond, 5-at-the-back formations, basically every formation that only uses 1 player out wide on each flank) who simply have more players in the central midfield area than we do, thus being able to control the game. So I had to find a way to adapt against these narrow systems:

Now the Inside Forwards are turned into Wingers to provide the width and the Wingbacks are turned into IWBs to support the central midfield areas (where we were shorthanded before). The added insurance of the two IWBs affords us to turn one of the BBMs into more of an attacking role to provide more runs from deep (the left BBM now has "get further forward" and "moves into channels" as PI).

 

3. When to use which setup?

• Only use these tactics if you have 2 central midfielders who can fulfil the requirements of the BBM role. There's no room for a static playmaker-type midfielder in this setup. Toni Kroos would be warming the bench in this setup.
• Only use these tactics if you have a big, strong Target Man. He's your most important player in attack. Without him you won't be successful. Doesn't have to be an expensive world-beater, just get a striker who is good in the air (jumping reach, heading), strong (strength) and doesn't shy away from contact (bravery). I'll give you some names later on...
• Use the normal version as your base tactic and build your squad around it. You'll use that one the majority of the games.
• Use the "inverted" version only against opponents who only have 1 player on each wing. Examples:

 

4. What to look for at each position?

GK: Just get the best keeper you can get. You could also change the role to any other Goalkeeping-role to your liking. I still use the initial Paderborn keeper (Jannik Huth) in my save.

DC: Defenders first and foremost but it helps if they have some passing skills. If they do, they will occassionally play long passes to the Target Man, which can create good chances on the counter. If you have a DC who's not a good passer, just turn the role into a standard Central Defender.

DL/DR: Important guys to provide width in attack and still be reliable in defense. You want speed, workrate, positioning, crossing, dribbling, decisions here. These guys run a lot.

MC: The 2 BBM guys are the engine of the team. Need to be able to run their socks off every game, working up and down the pitch all day. Workrate, teamwork, stamina, tackling, decisions, off the ball, passing are the most important attributes for them. If I were to manage Real Madrid I'd prefer Camavinga & Tchouameni over Kroos & Modric for these roles. Arturo Vidal in his prime would be perfect for this role. Morten Thorsby (Union Berlin) is a great option if you're on a budget.

AML/AMR: Just get the best Inside Forwards you can. If you have a choice, I'd play them on their inverted foot (lefty on the right side and vice versa). Speed, dribbling, finishing, technique, first touch, agility, balance are all important. You basically want to find an Arjen Robben clone for each side.

TM (Thunder): Big, strong, tough, anything related to technique/skill is a nice bonus. If money is not an issue, get Lukaku or Scamacca. If you are on a budget, I can recommend Fer Nino (can be bought on the cheap from Villareal after the 1st season, he's the superstar in my Paderborn save), Roberts Uldrikis (starts at Cambuur), Paul Onuachu (Genk) or Guus Til (AMC who can be retrained, if you want a more balanced player with some skill).

AF (Lightning): Speed kills here. The quicker the better. Somebody who is fast and can finish. Dribbling and off the ball are important as well. In my Paderborn save I use Ernest Poku (starts at AZ) in that role. Guys like Timo Werner, Lautaro Martinez or Aubameyang should be great in this role.

 

5. Enough talk - where are the downloads?

Normal version:

424 Thunder & Lightning.fmf

 

Inverted version:

424 Thunder & Lightning Inverted.fmf

 

Shut Up Shop version (final 5-10 minutes, when defending a narrow lead):

Thunder & Lightning SUS.fmf

 

Further testing with West Ham (holiday test, using the normal version of the tactic):

Edited January 27, 2023 by burnum

[burnum]

It has been done: SC Paderborn win the Bundesliga for the first time ever, breaking the FC Bayern streak of 13 consecutive titles in a row.

 

This is the first eleven I used for most of the season:

 

This is the player I use as my Target Forward. He scored 30 goals over the course of the season and is by far the most important player on the team. Fits the tactic perfectly.

[Black Africa]

What is that skin that You using?

[burnum]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Black Africa:

What is that skin that You using?

Flut Skin Dark, can be downloaded at most of the popular FM websites/forums.

[gooders11]

Great tactic, congratulations.

[baller94]

Looks fantastic, will try with my Guingamp save!

[serg555]

burnum

you are using instructions on the opponent?

[burnum]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb serg555:

burnum

you are using instructions on the opponent?

Show onto weaker foot for everyone unless they're either-footed.

If they have someone in a playmaker role (DLP, AP, RPM) he'll get tight marking.

Single striker gets tight marking if nobody is lined up in the AMC role.

I usually look at opposing defenders' ratings before a match. If someone is particularly bad in terms of passing/vision I'll put trigger press on him.

[baller94]

Update:

Decided to give it a crack with my moneyball save with Esbjerg fB and got promoted to the Superliga in my second season. Really excited to see how it pulls up against the much bigger teams. 

Will try with another team too but with attributes on to really get the most out of it. But super impressed! Thanks again.

[gooders11]

[gooders11]

Easily won the league with Valencia and managed to get Nino on loan, also lost on penalties in the Copa Del Rey final, Valencia are skint so ill be accepting the Leverkusen job and see how ill get in in Germany.

 

[burnum]

Good to see it's working well for you guys as well.

[burnum]

Update:

 

I've tweaked around with some of the roles in the tactics. Here's what I've found:

• Changing BBM-su to BWM-su leads to a more solid defense but takes a little bit away from the attacking output. This could be a good change for tough games against good opponents.
• Changing BBM-su to RPM-su leads to better attacking output without sacrificing anything defensively. But you need to have great allround players for the RPM roles. If you don't have a top duo like Kimmich/Goretzka, you're probably better off just sticking with the BBM role. If you have one great player but not two, the combination of a RPM-su and a BWM-su should be a good combination (tested that with West Ham with Rice as RPM and Soucek as BWM, went pretty well).
• Changing IF to IW leads to more wing play and crosses, which can benefit your Target Man but hurt the AF in terms of goalscoring. I don't think there's a better or worse way, just use the role that's better suited to your players. The IW tends to run down the flank more before cutting inside in the final third, while the IF has a more direct approach and basically works as an "outside striker".

 

Conclusion:

• Change BBM roles to BWM against tough opponents or when closing out games with a narrow lead.
• RPM is the best role for the two central mids but ONLY if you have the players to make it work.
• Any combination of BBM/BWM/RPM should work well.
• IF or IW on the wings is completely up to what players you have in your squad.

[gooders11]

Any tips on how to get the AML to get better performances, it's the only position in the tactic that struggles for ratings.

[burnum]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb gooders11:

Any tips on how to get the AML to get better performances, it's the only position in the tactic that struggles for ratings.

First step: try removing overlap on the left side (there should be a natural overlap anyways). If that doesn't work: second step: try changing the role from IF to IW. If that doesn't work (give him 5-8 games before making any further changes) you could mirror the setup from the right side to the left - WB on support and IF on attack duty. In general, if you have more of a finisher, play him as IF, if you have more of a dribbler/creator, play him as IW.

If all those things don't work: maybe change the left BBM to RPM to help getting the AML more involved.

[chipspice1974]

This looks promising. Really like this formation and bought a cheap Czech target man 6,6” who’s just scored 6 in last 4 matches so you might be onto something here with striker combo! 
 

will test further tonight but nice tactic

[Mordurette]

I've got Toluwalase Arokodare in my squad. He's 1.97 metres and 18 for both Jumping Reach and Strength. Maybe it's time to test this tactic because I'm looking for a TF tactic...

[gooders11]

Sidney Van Hooijdonk from Bologna is a great cheap target man, also amazing at free kicks. I changed the AML to attack and Adam Hzloek is on fire in that position. Such a great tactic. Also if you look at the Assembler thread Double Delicious has made fantastic attacking routines, add another 20 goals on for your target man.

[theeyeofthetiger]

£325k bargain buy. 42 goals in 42 app....

 

[baller94]

@burnum Have you made any recent changes to your tactic? I'm still using and having great success, except defensively can be quite suspect.