[FM42] A brave new world - Historical divergence

[Jorgen]

The background stories are all partly based on a mix of historical facts, cultural ties and (existing) sentiments and then a fantasy twist?

[Wolf_pd]

44 minutes ago, Jorgen said:

The background stories are all partly based on a mix of historical facts, cultural ties and (existing) sentiments and then a fantasy twist?

Yep. I let history flow and pick one or two points of divergence. Usually one is enough, sometimes more is needed.

For Texas for instance, Sam Houston really preferred an independent Texas over secession. Cultural ties together with language are strong contenders for the way things go. Some things for instance expand on autonomous areas going a step further.

[Jorgen]

@Wolf_pd That's what I did for my own world maps too. I start somewhere with some historical facts and then think about what would have happend when time froze, or when you fast forward everything from that point. Or some things are just fun to try and make a story around.

[Wolf_pd]

14 minutes ago, Jorgen said:

@Wolf_pd That's what I did for my own world maps too. I start somewhere with some historical facts and then think about what would have happend when time froze, or when you fast forward everything from that point. Or some things are just fun to try and make a story around.

Easiest is to pick one big moment in time. It will use the big waves that makes it easy to diverge. That's why the Napoleonic Wars were so easy for South America and the American Civil War is so easy for northern America. For Europe I already have a few other points in mind (no spoilers ). Africa in that sense is much harder as it depends on how far I will allow the interconnectivity that is caused by colonialism.

[Jorgen]

1 hour ago, Wolf_pd said:

Easiest is to pick one big moment in time. It will use the big waves that makes it easy to diverge. That's why the Napoleonic Wars were so easy for South America and the American Civil War is so easy for northern America. For Europe I already have a few other points in mind (no spoilers ). Africa in that sense is much harder as it depends on how far I will allow the interconnectivity that is caused by colonialism.

Yes exactly. For example, I looked for old kingdoms in Africa and for autonomous regions worldwide to see which periods where interesting and started building from there. You can pick any point in time if you like. And sometimes it is just fun to pick something entirely different from the rest of the time period.

[Wolf_pd]

You can basically set up the world from the year 0, but for FM only from 1800 is usefull. In my case most of the historical action takes place in the 1800s anyway, so that makes it easy.

[Jorgen]

Indeed, and the writings of the world you're shaping are enough for the rest.

[Wolf_pd]

Nation: California
Offical long name: Republic of California
Language(s): English, Spanish
Capital: Sacramento
National stadium: Rose Bowl
Borders: West Pacific Ocean, south Nahua and Texas, north Cascadia and east Texas, Oceti Takowin

The history of California and Texas are largely intertwined as they both formed the northern frontier of the Viceroyalty of New Spain and the subsequent Mexican Republic. While Texas was a hotbed of revolutionary activity early on, California was much more controlled by the Spanish and later on the Mexicans as the British had shown an interest in the northern part of California. The Mexican-American war changed things with America gaining former Mexican California in what at the time was the third largest territory enlargement in the USA history, Obviously the same question on slavery turned up for the California territory as it had done for Texas, Florida and so many other territory added to the United States. Initially there was no rush to integrate the territory as a state, but when gold was found things changed quickly. The California territory was cut up to allow for extra possible states and appease the slavery debate. It did little to help and the American Civil struck the United States in 1861. California did enter the war late as it took a long time for news to travel westwards. This relative isolation gave rise to the second Bear Flag revolt. The lack of Union soldiers in California and the urgent need for them in the Eastern United States allowed for the independence of the Republic of California. Despite not directly bordering California, the United States have repeatedly attempted to unite the two nations. There is a parallel line of thinking in their politics and economically they are alike. Physical distance makes this very hard though as a train from New York would cross 3 other nations before entering California.

Just like Texas, California was an early adapter of the grass football game when it was part of the Viceroyalty of New Spain. Their football league setups show a similar pattern as well, with a well established university football competition in California. California is one of the more succesfull nations on the international club football front with success in the Copa Libertadores. Results in the Copa America have been lacking though, despite regularly qualifying.

Next up is Cascadia and I am working out some stuff to explain on how I plan to handle my clubs and how I set up my competitions.

[Wolf_pd]

Nation: Cascadia
Offical long name: State of Cascadia
Language(s): English
Capital: Seattle
National stadium: Lumen Field
Borders: West Pacific Ocean, south California, north Beaufort Sea and east Nunangat, Canada, Oceti Sakowin

Into the northwest we go. The history of Cascadia in the 1800s is one of exploration in the first 50 years. Spain, Great Britain, Russia and United States all had their part in that. Spain would retreat to the northern border of California and Russia would retreat to the Alaskan border, leaving the pie to be divided between the English and the Americans. The Oregon and Washington Territory would become part of the United States while the northern part remained British. When the American Civil War broke out, Union troops were moved east and Oregon and Washington seemed undefended. This thought crossed the minds of the British as well and they invaded Washington. What the British had failed to realise was that despite the Union troops being redeployed in the east, the remaining force in Washington and Oregon was still better prepared and better trained than the British troops. The invasion of Washington was quickly turned around and became the invasion of the Colonies of Vancouver Island and British Columbia. Since Americans had been free to settle in British Columbia there was a ready available supply of Washingtonians in British Columbia as wel. Sensing the opportunity with the United States being in shock after seeing territory after declaring independence, which later by historians would be called the Breaking of the Union, the combined territory of Oregon, Washington, British Columbia and Vancouver Island declared independence. The Idaho territory joined soon. The nation would be named for the Cascades mountain range. The Alaska territory would not be added until 1919 when the Russian presence was overrun in a period that they weren’t receiving provisions due to the Russian Civil War ranging on the other side of the Bering Strait.

Footballwise Cascadia was a late entrant to the CONEMAF football world. The lack of organisation in the territory and the focus on fur trapping made the Cascadia territory not a very fertile ground for the grass football game. The strict border with Spain hampered the spread from the south as well. Only a few years before the American Civil War broke out, the northwest was connected to the east of the United States via railroad and with the trains also came the pastime of football. Nowadays Cascadia is a sturdy opponent, but with relative little succes. It is the kind of opponent you don’t want to draw in the Copa Libertadores even though you will likely win the contest.

Next up Nunangat and the promised clubs and competition way of working.

[Wolf_pd]

As I mentioned in the Geography part, clubs are the obvious lifeline of this mod. No clubs means no football in FM (although a national team only mod should be possible).
My idea is to create national competitions with at least 3 levels for each nation. Some nations are rather small and will only have 3 levels. Others might be worked out into 6 or more levels if I feel inspired. The obvious issue here is the available amount of clubs. Some nations are well and deeply researched (Italy). Others.... not so much (Slovakia comes to mind). I prefer using teams from the database rather than create them (time being the chief reason). But I already know that there are several nations that will need created teams, either because of numbers, or because I have certain plans for the nation that means I rather have newly created teams than rebuild other teams into what I need.
Luckily there are more clubs in the database than you might realise and I want to make good use of that. If you don't know what I mean, let's explain.
The first and most obvious ones (especially for those who regularly use the editor) are the extinct teams. So plan A is to revive every extinct team. That will need some extra editing, mainly because usually extinct teams are used for historic purposes, but that's not the scope here. Making teams available to check the numbers is the first goal. Making teams ready for the competition is of secondary concern right now.
Reviving teams is easy. Uncheck the extinct checkbox and you are done. There are about 24500 extinct teams in the database, so that's valuable data!
Next, there are teams that are in the database, but when you search for them, they don't turn up in the search results, or you don't even see them turn up as an option when you type in the name.

An example
Type in Dornbirn, you get 11 results.

Now go to Fussballclub Dornbirn 1913 and click the tab Reserve Teams. You will notice two teams under Reserve Teams. An Amateur team and a U18 team. These teams didn't show up in the search results, did they?

Select both teams and click Remove.

Go back to the Clubs screen, Apply Filter and you now have 13.

Unfortunately you need to check every single active team to have all teams visible in the Clubs screen. The reason to do this is a. I want to reuse them in other manners and b. It is reeeeeeeeeeeeelly annoying to check all teams or to keep a constant (changing between updates!) list of reserve and youth teams. Added to that, since the 'Reserve Teams to be created' panel works a bit weird sometimes when there are already Reserve teams in the game, I prefer the game to create the reserve and U18/U19 competition instead of doing it all myself.
Yep, you can instruct the game to create the reserve competitions and youth competition and since I already will be putting massive time in creating competitions, clubs, culture, history and lore, I prefer the reserve and youth teams to be set up by the game.

I need the Geography file to be finished, before I can unextinct teams and make the reserve teams available. But that doesn't mean I can plan out the next steps, competition building. Well, building, right now it is mainly reading through football history and matching that with the planned culture. Football competitions evolve through the years and the evolution usually has a very good reason. For instance, the Brazilian competition has state competitions. Why? They evolved out of the Brazilian geography. Big country, travelling wasn't too easy, so state championships made much more sense. Only when travelling improved a nationwide competition was created. So you have to look at the map of the nation, link the history to it and especially see where your changes (or mine in this case) make things different. One that I have in mind for the West Indies Federation for instance would involve regional divisions based on islands. It makes total sense, doesn't it?

As these main high-over ideas evolve, you can start working out how many teams you need. I have a simple excelsheet where I can put in (per level) the amount of teams and the amount of divisions per level. And that simple calculation gives you an indication how much teams you would need. I have a general competition plan written for about half of the nations I have presented now and while you might expect otherwise, not everything is silly or extreme.

Another thing to keep in mind with teamnumbers comes when the team amounts and exact regional divisions are worked out. Relegation and promotion works well, as long as it is straight up or straight down between two divisions. As soon asone division relegates into multiple divisions the regional divisons tab comes into play. It does work, except when one region has much more teams relegated than the other regions. This would happen for instant when Division level 1 relegated 4 teams into the 4 regional divisions at level 2. If those 4 relegated teams are from region South, region North, region East and region West, everything is OK. Every region gets 1 team, but when there are 3 teams from region North relegated, 1 from region South and none from West and East, there is an issue. One fix is to use Dynamic Relegation, but Dynamic Relegation has one big drawback. It works, but can only be used for 1 levThe Dynamic Relegation does work btel. So you have to pick the exact level where you want to use it. On the other levels you have to decide what to do. 

My solution for now has been overlapping regional divisions. That means that some teams always relegated to Region North, but some teams can be region North and region South. This does work in the regions where you somewhere between national and regional. It works with 'fuzzy borders'. So for Czechoslovakia in the Iron Curtain you have a strict border between the Czech Republic and Slovakia. That's where I would use the Dynamic Relegation. The next level in the Czech Republic you have two regions being Bohemia (blue) and Moravia (red). Note that I have not followed the official border of Moravia and Bohemia as it crosses the borders of the official regions here and there. For my purposes the official Krajs are easier to use.

The region where Moravia and Bohemia border each other is for me a fuzzy border. So Bohemian teams from regions C, S and H will get both the regiona divisions for Bohemia and Moravia, but ONLY the teams that inside X kilometers from the border between Bohemia and Moravia. The same thing is applied in reverse order for teams in Moravian regions E and J. This way it is no issue if from time to time a Bohemian team from one side of the border ends up on the other side in Moravia. If this happens to a team I still have made sure travelling distance is 'minimized'.

A level lower Moravia and Bohemia are split up in 2 (for Moravia, red and orange) and 3 (for Bohemia, but not shown on the map) regions.

I can set the western Moravia regional division for that Bohemian team, so whenever it would drop into Moravia it will still have relatively less travelling kilometers than when it could end in the eastern orange reion in Moravia. This does take a bit of study, but should mostly make sure you don't end up Lithuanian teams in Siberia kind of scenarios (which happened in Iron Curtain FM20 in one of my testruns....).

That's why when the Base Geographic file is done you still need to check out if the local regions SI and you yourself have created are the exact ones you are going to need/use. As the main purpose of the Base Geography file is to split up nations and not yet to build specific nations it does mean a little bit extra work, but if you see it work as intended it is worth the effort.

[Wolf_pd]

Nation: Nunangat
Offical long name: Inuit Nunangat
Language(s): English and various Inuit languages
Capital: Iqaluit
National stadium: Sǫǫ̀mbak’è Community Arena
Borders: West Cascadia, south Canada, north Arctic Ocean and east Greenland

One of the most isolated football nations Nunangat is a recent addition to the CONEMAF and FIFA roster. Nunangat has profited from new FIFA rules that allow autonomous regions to join FIFA if their nation allows for them to join their continental federation. As Canada did not see any problems with Nunangat joining, Nunangat became a full member of CONEMAF in 2017 and joined FIFA in 2022. Nunangat is one of the nations where games can be played on artificial grass, grass, gravel and ice (!). Ice games take place in the winter in a special competition, but are not part of the official national football competition. Most games are played in Sǫǫ̀mbak’è as biggest and most southern city.

When explorers entered the arcitc regions of Rupert's land they encountered a people that already played a ballgame that would look very familiar to any Nahuan grass ball game player. As there were no peccaries around though, the ball was made out of another material, the nose sack of the hooded seal. Added bonus to using this kind of ball is that the sack is brightly red which makes for good visibility. The Nunangat terriroty was considered of little importance under precious resources were discovered. This obviously brought in a (small) influx of people, but also brought the region pollution, alcohol and other problems. Activism for Inuit autonomy started in the late 70's, but only saw success when the territory of Nunavut was created. Encouraged by this success more initiatives were started and in the early 80's Inuvialuit was created, while it took untill 2005 when Nunavik and Nunatsiavut were created. This ultimately resulted in the Nunangat autonomous territory being created in 2009.

Next up is Canada

[Wolf_pd]

Looking at Nunangat you might have thought, do we have this kind of data in the FM databases? The answer to that question is No, we don't. Nunangat will be completely custom build and will a completely new set of local regions, cities, clubs and person names, ethnicity and other physical appearance.

So that's where 'culture building' comes in. Obviously, I have already have given myself enough options with Nahua, Yucatan and Tawantinsuyu, but at least for those there is quite a bit of information available, based on research, most of the languages being alive and in general quite a bit of people living in the area. Nunangat for that part is mostly empty, really really empty. The Dutch city I live has more inhabitants than complete Nunangat. And it's really not that big.
In this case Local Regions are quite easy as they are available and can be found online. Cities (or rather settlements in the case of most) can be found as well, but clubs might be a challenge. Looking at person names, that will be a case of googling and finding names. Luckily Wikipedia and other pages offer enough options to click through. So this nation will end up an Inuit based nation (and languages!) with correct places, people names and everything.

The easiest start for names usually is sports and politics as those people are wellpresented online. A few nations on my list are for instance from the Pacific ocean, say Fiji, Samoa and Tonga. What is easier than for those three nations to look into rugby players. You don't have to add those players with their exact physical sizes to the game (would be fun though ), but re-using their names gives a great namebase.

Ah yes, namebases in FM.

If you have been playing FM since the CM days, you might have found a file in the CM2 folder that shows every name for each nation. You could then if you wanted add a name to it and it would show up in the game. Later on this has been hidden or encrypted somewhere. There are a few files that might be what we need like basic_people_db.dat, but the file can't be opened. Annoying isn't it? If you delete every single person in the game (except for retired people, those can't be delted) and you play you will notice some nations having player names and some being completely empty, not even having grey names. Nations with player names have (probably) their own namelists. Changing the language of cities, local regions and nations does not appear to change them, so it very much looks like this is the 'minimum amount of names' the nation has. However, you might wonder, if that's only the minimum where does the rest come from? Simple, from the FM database. Every player from a certain nationality is made part of the namebase of that nation.
So if you give Belgian players Japanese names, you will start to notice Japanese names between your Belgian names. How much that happens, depends on two things. 1. How big the total amount of persons is and 2. How many names you have added. Every nation appears to have a baseline amount of people (maybe depending on the amount nation inhabitants?).
To create a completely new nation like Nunangat you will want to have a clean slate, or a very minimal influx of Canadian/US style names. There are two options in this case, one is to reuse one of the Caribbean nations that full under for instance the West Indies Federation, the other is to reuse one of the extinct nations. Using the West Indies Federation makes for a decent amount of US/Canadian style names, possibly some French (Canadian) names as well, so they fit the bill. Where the Caribbean nations doesn't fit the bill, is in terms of ethnicity. Ethnicity is another thing we can't change in the editor btw. So reusing an extinct nation seems to be the better option. True, but we only have a limited amount of extinct nations. I don't know how SI are going to implement women football, but I am silently hoping that they are going to do it in such a way that those nations could be reused for men football (and I have the choice of about 500 nations ).

But back to names. Independent of any nation that I will use to build the nation of Nunangat you will need a base amount of players. There are several rules for that, some have been determined by editors, some have been confirmed by SI.

• If you want to have the team be available for international management you need to have at least 150 players of a RELEVANT playing level. Adding 300 players with 200 that are nowhere able to plan in the national team will not make the team available for international management.
• You need about 100-150 players to get a decent amount of player names in the games, but more is always better. The other side of that is that it takes a lot of time and effort to add them unfortunately
• One other thing I have noted is that there are nations that are strictly influenced by language and the availbale players in the database. One of these is Djibouti for instance. Removing all players and replacing the language with Dutch gave Dutch newgens (this applied to FM20 btw, so could have changed). So it's worth it to find out these 'empty shells' that can be finetuned to your liking. For HDP I am doing that as well, by determining which nations I want to reuse (Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Chile, Peru, Bolivia, Mexico, etc) and which are left afterwards and could be reused. The changing demographics due to my history changes are interesting as well, as some of the Central and South American nations can be reused up north! Paraguay and Venezuela are high on my 'test and check' list, just like the Central American nations. On that note, know that SI knows just one Native American ethnicity which applies to the whole of the Americas.

[Wolf_pd]

Question to anyone reading with regard to competitions. What is in your opinion something that needs in a competition setup that makes it interesting to play (or watch in case of real football)?

I have a few competition setup fluttering around my mind and while some are set (the Brazil state competition I mentioned before for instance), some are up in the air, so I am looking for some inspiration and maybe something out in leftfield.

PS: Good ideas will get credited unless you shamelessly copy a Wikipedia page

[nasaiain]

11 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

Question to anyone reading with regard to competitions. What is in your opinion something that needs in a competition setup that makes it interesting to play (or watch in case of real football)?

I have a few competition setup fluttering around my mind and while some are set (the Brazil state competition I mentioned before for instance), some are up in the air, so I am looking for some inspiration and maybe something out in leftfield.

PS: Good ideas will get credited unless you shamelessly copy a Wikipedia page

I myself  always like weird and wacky competitions set ups, I know they are not everyone's cup of team, but I do like my custom databases to be a bit odd, I like to see what I can do with the editor. A couple examples of what I've used before, I'm slightly obsessed with cross-group play. I imagine these would be terrible in the real world.

Competition 1 (I used this for an U21 competition)

• 8 regional competitions of 24 teams, each following the same format
• Each competition has the same teams every year, makes sense for a youth competition to not travel nationwide
• The 24 teams are split into 4 groups of 6, once again same teams every year, could be randomized
• Teams play in their own group twice (10 games) the against the other 3 groups once (18 games) - total of 28 games
• Top team from each of the 4 groups, plus the next best 4 qualify for the regional playoff
• Regional playoffs are double elimination
• Reginal winner qualifies for a national finals playoff with the other reginal competitions
• As a bonus each regional winner and runner up qualifies for the next seasons main cup

Competition 2 (I used this for an U18 competition)

• 8 regional competitions of 24 teams, each following the same format
• Each competition has the same teams every year, makes sense for a youth competition to not travel nationwide
• The 24 teams are split into 4 groups of 6, randomized each season, play 10 games
• Top 2 group each group qualify for the top conference
• Next 2 for the middle conference
• Bottom 2 for the bottom conference
• Teams then play in their own conference (14 games) and are ranked 1-24

Competition 3 (I used this for a 5th tier)

• 80 teams split into 8 divisions, play 4 rounds, 36 games
• 8 Division winners qualify for Champions Promotion Playoff
• 2nd-4th in each divisions qualify for Promotion Playoffs
• Champions Promotion Playoff
  • 8 Divisions winners ranked 1-8 on divisional performance
  • Seeded draw
  • 4 Winner Promoted and qualify for Champions Playoff taking their seeding with them
  • 4 Losers Drop into the Promotion Playoff second round taking their seeding with them
• Promotion Playoff
  • 24 Teams Ranked 9-32 based on divisional performance
  • All rounds Seeded draw
  • First round - 12 Matches
  • Second Round - 8 Matches
  • Third Round - 4 Matches, winners promoted
• Champions Playoff
  • 4 Promotion Playoff Winners
  • Seeded draw
  • Semi Finals and Final, winner is overall Tier 5 Champion

[Wolf_pd]

1 hour ago, nasaiain said:

I myself  always like weird and wacky competitions set ups, I know they are not everyone's cup of team, but I do like my custom databases to be a bit odd, I like to see what I can do with the editor. A couple examples of what I've used before, I'm slightly obsessed with cross-group play. I imagine these would be terrible in the real world.

Competition 1 (I used this for an U21 competition)

• 8 regional competitions of 24 teams, each following the same format
• Each competition has the same teams every year, makes sense for a youth competition to not travel nationwide
• The 24 teams are split into 4 groups of 6, once again same teams every year, could be randomized
• Teams play in their own group twice (10 games) the against the other 3 groups once (18 games) - total of 28 games
• Top team from each of the 4 groups, plus the next best 4 qualify for the regional playoff
• Regional playoffs are double elimination
• Reginal winner qualifies for a national finals playoff with the other reginal competitions
• As a bonus each regional winner and runner up qualifies for the next seasons main cup

Competition 2 (I used this for an U18 competition)

• 8 regional competitions of 24 teams, each following the same format
• Each competition has the same teams every year, makes sense for a youth competition to not travel nationwide
• The 24 teams are split into 4 groups of 6, randomized each season, play 10 games
• Top 2 group each group qualify for the top conference
• Next 2 for the middle conference
• Bottom 2 for the bottom conference
• Teams then play in their own conference (14 games) and are ranked 1-24

Competition 3 (I used this for a 5th tier)

• 80 teams split into 8 divisions, play 4 rounds, 36 games
• 8 Division winners qualify for Champions Promotion Playoff
• 2nd-4th in each divisions qualify for Promotion Playoffs
• Champions Promotion Playoff
  • 8 Divisions winners ranked 1-8 on divisional performance
  • Seeded draw
  • 4 Winner Promoted and qualify for Champions Playoff taking their seeding with them
  • 4 Losers Drop into the Promotion Playoff second round taking their seeding with them
• Promotion Playoff
  • 24 Teams Ranked 9-32 based on divisional performance
  • All rounds Seeded draw
  • First round - 12 Matches
  • Second Round - 8 Matches
  • Third Round - 4 Matches, winners promoted
• Champions Playoff
  • 4 Promotion Playoff Winners
  • Seeded draw
  • Semi Finals and Final, winner is overall Tier 5 Champion

Interesting. I agree about regionality and travelling distance. There are a few nations where you could say that travell is an issue.

For one nation I am looking at the real life competition where the cup competition decides which team gets promoted to a certain division.

[Jorgen]

On 19/02/2023 at 23:05, Wolf_pd said:

Question to anyone reading with regard to competitions. What is in your opinion something that needs in a competition setup that makes it interesting to play (or watch in case of real football)?

I have a few competition setup fluttering around my mind and while some are set (the Brazil state competition I mentioned before for instance), some are up in the air, so I am looking for some inspiration and maybe something out in leftfield.

PS: Good ideas will get credited unless you shamelessly copy a Wikipedia page

What I like is the quirkyness and differences in competition formats all around the world. Like the MLS with its play-offs, the Dutch KKD with the period champions; Afghanistan with only 2 groups of each 3 teams (6 matches) and then a semi final (one match) and final (one match); Bulgaria where the teams in the relegation playoffs still can manage to win an European ticket; there is a New Zealand league on these forums with 30+ teams who only play eachother once. If I plan to do a long term save it is nice to have such different league setups available. To have a balanced and interesting world, its important to have simple straightforward 18/20 clubs home and away style leagues too. Sometimes it is nice to have big leagues with lots of teams, sometimes it is nice to have only 8 teams in the league.

If you recreate continental competitions from scratch too, a Champions League with a normal 8 groups groupphase and then a knockoutphase would be nice to have. I also like the style of the AFC Champions League where the compeition is divided between an East Asian part and a West Asian part. The final is played between the winners of the east and west parts of the cup. This is due to distances and traveling costs of course, but in your world you can do what you like. If you create a intercontinental supercup I am more interested to play a cup that is held every year with only the really best teams from their respective continents. In addition all kinds of other continents could exist, but a bit less important.

[nasaiain]

I think the benefit of FM is that it opens your eyes to the wide variety of competition formats around the world. The 16-24 team, double round robin format played in the majority of major nations in Europe works in the real world, but I find it can become stale in game. When you move club you just get the same again, but with different opposition, hence why I like to mix it up.

Split league and European playoffs divide opinion in the real world but in game I think its nice to have a variation around the world. Though sometimes they can get a bit stupid (Belgium, 3rd place in the second tier should not be in the European playoffs (early-mid 2010's) madness)

The MLS, Brazilian State system, and the Latin Apertura and Clausura, even the Rugby League 12+12 into 8+8+8 add variety.

I'm also fond of multiple cups rather than bulking out the league, additional League and regional cups bringing more stuff to win, or the chance for different opposition. A 16 team league and a cup with a group stage appeals to me more than a 20 team league with about the same number of games.

One of may favorite group of competitions are the Asian regional International Competitions (why are the African ones not included by default?) this makes managing smaller nations have more meaning, always my first downloads to get is to add as many as possible. Similarly regional club competitions are a nice to have.

But as an aside more importantly than the actual format are the rules. There is nothing more infuriating than databases that do not have proper rules implemented, people leaving the default for subs (3 from 5) or yellow card bans (1 game every 2 cards) are the worst! 

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by nasaiain

[Jorgen]

Exactly. Variation is key. I don't like every play-off system, but in FM it is essential to have all kinds of leagues.

I really like the regonal continental cups too. I am managing Seongnam in South-Korea right now, where I can also play in an East Asian Club Champions Cup.

I haven't managed there yet, but I want to play in Saudi Arabia and win 3 continental competitions in a season  (AFC CL, Arab CL and GCC CL) and the league, King Cup, Super cup (and the now defeunct Saudi Egypt Super Cup and Crown Pince Cup). If you add the Fifa World Club Cup, you can win 9 things in a year.

[Wolf_pd]

3 hours ago, nasaiain said:

But as an aside more importantly than the actual format are the rules. There is nothing more infuriating than databases that do not have proper rules implemented, people leaving the default for subs (3 from 5) or yellow card bans (1 game every 2 cards) are the worst! 

Don't worry. I am a sucker for putting these things exactly like they need to be.

Very good points. One of the things I notice when looking through competitions and competitions history that there in a sense a sort of common denominator for regions. For the USA that's for instance playoffs, or for Central and South America it is the Apertura and Clausura, but behind that there is a lot of (sometimes subtle) difference. It is almost (almost, not completely) as much fun as working out history

[Jorgen]

@Wolf_pd do you happen to know what amounts of nations and or leagues the base game expects for continental and international matches, per continent? Of doesn't it make a real difference when you start from scratch? (Like in Euro Qualifiers, Champions League preliminary rounds, etc)

[Wolf_pd]

2 minutes ago, Jorgen said:

@Wolf_pd do you happen to know what amounts of nations and or leagues the base game expects for continental and international matches, per continent? Of doesn't it make a real difference when you start from scratch? (Like in Euro Qualifiers, Champions League preliminary rounds, etc)

Continental and International can be 0. I started in FM20 by deleting every single one of those. No issues when I tested that.

I know of someone who only played England and deleted the rest. It worked although loading times were long (deletes are changes too afterall)

[Reiver]

1 hour ago, Jorgen said:

@Wolf_pd do you happen to know what amounts of nations and or leagues the base game expects for continental and international matches, per continent? Of doesn't it make a real difference when you start from scratch? (Like in Euro Qualifiers, Champions League preliminary rounds, etc)

It needs as many nations as the continental competitions ask for - if you edit them too, there's no limit.

[Jorgen]

@Reiver @Wolf_pd So as long as I edit the competitons, everything works, otherwise I need to have the amount of the vanilla database. What happens with the coëfficients in Europe and Asia if you edit those competitons? Will they still function normally?

[Wolf_pd]

3 minutes ago, Jorgen said:

@Reiver @Wolf_pd So as long as I edit the competitons, everything works, otherwise I need to have the amount of the vanilla database. What happens with the coëfficients in Europe and Asia if you edit those competitons? Will they still function normally?

The coefficients will likely stop working.

[Jorgen]

@Wolf_pd That's not what I want. Then for my own projects I'll try to have the same amount of nations.

 

To return to your question about competition setups, I also like the mixture of teams that play in different nations. Like on the Welsh/English border, Monaco in Ligue 1, Reunion teams in Coupe de France, Canadian teams in the MLS, etc. So maybe you could add some cross-border teams/leagues/cups too

[nasaiain]

15 hours ago, Jorgen said:

@Wolf_pd That's not what I want. Then for my own projects I'll try to have the same amount of nations.

 

To return to your question about competition setups, I also like the mixture of teams that play in different nations. Like on the Welsh/English border, Monaco in Ligue 1, Reunion teams in Coupe de France, Canadian teams in the MLS, etc. So maybe you could add some cross-border teams/leagues/cups too

This would give the opportunity to create multi-nation competitions, i think that if you were creating the footballing world from scratch right now, multination competitions would be a no-brainer to allow smaller countries to have better competitions. In Europe alone there have been multiple suggestions, the Be-NE league being the most prominent. If you have clusters of small counties that could also be an option.

In the real word a Caribbean super league would not happen due to the travel costs for the clubs, but in game its much more feasible and interesting.

This set up is common in other sports, see the North American big 4, ice hockey in Europe and Rugby Union Worldwide

[Wolf_pd]

51 minutes ago, nasaiain said:

This would give the opportunity to create multi-nation competitions, i think that if you were creating the footballing world from scratch right now, multination competitions would be a no-brainer to allow smaller countries to have better competitions. In Europe alone there have been multiple suggestions, the Be-NE league being the most prominent. If you have clusters of small counties that could also be an option.

In the real word a Caribbean super league would not happen due to the travel costs for the clubs, but in game its much more feasible and interesting.

This set up is common in other sports, see the North American big 4, ice hockey in Europe and Rugby Union Worldwide

There is a way to get the Caribbean Super League working in real life, but you would have to keep an eye on travel costs indeed.

I have at least one multination competition for Europe in mind. People from other sports would recognize it and the setup.

The only ones that are pretty much set right now are Brazil and the setup I have in mind for Tawantinsuyu. That last one is actually based on a reallife competition people think won't be workable in FM and I think I have worked out how to get it to work.

[Samuel77]

Le 22/02/2023 à 08:25, Wolf_pd a dit :

That last one is actually based on a reallife competition people think won't be workable in FM and I think I have worked out how to get it to work.

I'm curious to find out what it is. I like brainteasers and their solutions 

[Wolf_pd]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peruvian_Segunda_División and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copa_Perú

I want to set up level one and two like an Apertura and Clausura, but the promoted teams from level 3 are determined via a Cup tournament, which if you set it up correctly is mostly a playoff system after a regionalized league system with some quirks.

[Samuel77]

Hmm I'm really interested to see how you do it. I'm hesitating on something like this as well on what I'm doing.

[Wolf_pd]

On 23/02/2023 at 18:04, Samuel77 said:

Hmm I'm really interested to see how you do it. I'm hesitating on something like this as well on what I'm doing.

That's obviously a question for a later moment, but high over, since both level 2 and 3 are going to be divisions, it should work. Level 3 will be divided into regional divisions with an expanded playoff. The issue that might have been is that people have looked at it as a cup and then it won't work in FM, as you can't promote and relegate from cups. But what I probably will do is create two levels in basic rules with promotion and relegation between them, then create a cup with group stages and use that as my base. In advanced rules I can then rebulld the cup into a division competition. A bit cheating, but hey

[Wolf_pd]

Nation: Canada
Offical long name: Dominion of Canada
Language(s): English, French and various indigenous languages
Capital: Ottawa
National stadium: Maple Leaf Stadium
Borders: West Cascadia, north Nunangat, south Illinois Confederation, Oceti Sakowin, Iroquois Confederacy, United States, east Quebec

Oh Canada! Canada is a ice hockey nation, but has done surprising well for a nation where football is the third sport behind ice hockey and lacrosse. Canada was colonised by the British just like most of their southern neighbours. Large territories were confiscated by companies like the Hudson Bay company, who were active in the fur trapping business. A first sort of war of independence for Canada took place between 1812 and 1815. This was a war between the United States and the British in the Canadian colonies. Had the United States won, it would have been likely there would not have been a Canada. Native Americans were fighting with both parties and the Shawnee leader Tecumseh would play a part in this war and later rebellions. The war ended in a stalemate where both the United States showed to be a force to be reckoned with and the British showed they were not to be pushed over. The troubling memories of the war would prove to fuel the distrust toward the Americans and set the basis for a distinct Canadian identity. The rebellions of 1837 made the British merge Lower and Upper Canada together which would create the friction needed for Quebec leaving Canada later on. The dominion of Canada was created in 1867, giving Canada selfgovernment becoming independent over the next century. While serious attempts were made by the United States to pull Canada into the American civil war, only 30000 Canadians would fight on the union side, while at the same time some 30000 Americans would leave the United States as they didn’t want to take part in the war. Except for a heightened alertness at the Canadian border and some maritime incidents, the war was a distant rumble. Canada would expand with territory to the north and west with the aptly named Northern Territories, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, but would also lose territory again. British Columbia and Vancouver Island were lost to the Cascadian rebellion and Québec would secede. Newfoundland which by many is considered a former Canadian province actually never was part of the dominion, but those latter two will be discussed in separate posts. Nunangat would gain autonomy, but officially is still part of Canada. The remoteness and lack of population made the decision easy to keep Nunangat in a separate competition.

Canadian football is mainly focused in Ontario which with almost half the population is not strange. The Canadian competition is a transnational competition with Newfoundland and Québec also providing teams. All teams for the Copa Libertadores qualify via this competition which also means qualification for the Newfoundland and Quebec teams is automatic. Due to the vast distances football long has been more regionalised and those regional competitions can still be found back at lower levels. Internationally Canada has won one Copa America which has been considered a fluke and has qualified twice for the World Cup.

[Wolf_pd]

Nation: Québec
Offical long name: Québec
Language(s): French
Capital: Québec
National stadium: Stade olympique
Borders: West Canada, north Nunangat, south United States, east Newfoundland, Atlantic Ocean

Between 1534 and 1763, Quebec was called Canada and this means the Québecois do think they have a right to the name. Canada the nation tends to disagree on this. While this obviously wasn't the reason Québec seceeded from the dominion of Canada, the Québecois consider it one of the many situations where the Québecois and Canadian government disagreed and it increased the rift between the nations. The Québec region was initially colonised by French settlers, only to be lost to the British during the Seven Years' War. Despite differences in language and religion, the British guaranteed the freedom of religion and French language, which enabled Québec to keep its distinctive culture. In 1837 a revolt would break out against the British leading to the creation of the Canada Province, merging Lower Canada and Upper Canada. This was purely done to diminish the French influence. This created the type of resentment that would brew for a long time and was responsible for a lot of friction in the province until 1867. In 1867 the Dominion of Canada was created and the Canada Province was split into an English part (Ontario) and a French part (Québec). Where other parts of Canada would see modernisation, the Québec province would see a Catholic stranglehold well into the 20th century with the church deciding over various mental and physical matters. The Quiet Revolution (because Québecois were still Canadians afterall) would start in the 60s and lead to a much more liberal Québec. With this came a sense of Québecois nationalism and selfdeterminism. Where Canada was relative lenient towards Québec autonomy the tide turned when the Front de libération du Québec kidnapped British diplomat James Cross and French-Canadian politician Pierre Laporte. Despite the backlash and strong support of the Canadian government in the 1970 October crisis, peacefull Québecois request for sovereignity would actually increase. This would lead to the 1980 Québec Referendum. An overwhelming majority said YES to secession. After long and difficult negotiations Québec seceeded in 1987 as part of the Meech Lake Accord.

One of the highlights of the Québec is the yearly Acadia Cup between the national football teams of Québec and Acadiana to strengthen their brotherly bond. Québec international football is mostly limited to qualifying rounds as the amount of football players is limited. Just like Canada ice hockey is the more popular pastime. Despite this, Québec club teams have seen some strong results in the Copa Libertadores with the Montreal team being the most succesful one. As mentioned before Québec plays in the Canadian Football League together with teams from Newfoundland and Canada. The second level in Québec is the Première ligue de soccer du Québec and is played with only Québec teams.

Next up Newfoundland (test first if you can pronounce it correctly!)

[Wolf_pd]

Nation: Newfoundland
Offical long name: Newfoundland
Language(s): English
Capital: St. John's
National stadium: King George V Park
Borders: West Québec, north Nunangat, south United States, east Atlantic Ocean

The history of Newfoundland (pronounced Newfundland) starts when William Carson called for the replacement of the system of arbitrary rule by naval commanders, seeking instead to have a resident governor and an elective legislature. His systemic calls would lead to Newfoundland being declared a colony in 1824. Carson himself would be part of the legislature for many years until his death in 1843. Newfoundlanders decided to pass on joining the Dominion of Canada in 1867. Newfoundland remained a colony until acquiring dominion status in 1907. The 1929 depression made Newfoundlanders wonder if they weren't better off back as a colony and it led to the abandonment of self-government, making Newfoundland the only country ever voluntarily relinquished democracy. Fortunes would turn when the United States requested access to Newfoundland for naval bases. This led to an influx of American money and a general lift in prosperity of the island. It also led to doubts on the side of the British and Canadians out of fear that an independent Newfoundland would join the United States due to their economic and military ties. This would mean Canada would only have a very limited access to the Atlantic Ocean. Newfoundland was urged to join Canada, but in the 1948 referendums the Newfoundlanders voted otherwise. Since the United States wasn't interested in antagonizing a close ally like Canada and didn't want to offer statehood to Newfoundland, after receiving assurances that the Canadian and an eventuel Newfoundland government would honour the leases for bases on Newfoundland, the U.S. State Department had no further interest in the political future of Newfoundland. The two options in the referendum then were Confederation with Canada and Independency. The independency faction would win with 58,8% where confederation with Canada only received 41,1%. After negotiations with the British and with the Canadians (among others over access to waterways), Newfoundland officially gained independence at midnight, March 31, 1949.

King George V Park, the national stadium of Newfoundland, build in 1925 is the oldest surviving football stadium north of the Nahuan border. As mentioned before Newfoundland club teams qualify for the Copa Libertadores via the Canadian Football League. The second level is organized by the Newfoundland Football Association. The Newfoundland Football league is one of the smallest competition in the CONAMAF football sphere which is no surprise with a population of less than 500,000. Despite that Newfoundlander teams have upset some teams over the year. This might have to do with the adverse weather on Newfoundland. Especially wind can be a factor in games, but cold and even snow have caused several upsets against warm weather opponents over the years. Don't ask teams from Lucaya to play a friendly international game in St. John's. You might not enjoy their respons!

And after finishing this former Canada trifecta, it is time to return to the former United States, next up is the Illinois Confederation

[Wolf_pd]

In the meantime I have made some (very minor) changes in the North American map consolidating some areas and making them more logical. I would say 99% of my first draft has survived, with minor border adjustments between Québec and Newfoundland and between Canada and the Illinois Confederation. I am also looking up the information for Nunangat as that's the only one that really needs to be worked out in detail.

And I have started with a first setup for the history of the nations. While working on the Iron Curtain 2020 I already made some excel sheets for that. but things are a little bit more complicated as I have to work out national history first, then continental club cup setup, then work through available results (if any) all the while while merging the results of two confederations. I never said it was easy  So with that, when I have finished the last 4 nations, it is time to start really setting up the international club cup timelines and the international nation football championship timelines. So I will probably do a big post on that (hopefully soon). How I work out national history  will probably be described when I have really picked up on my first nation build.

History is in the making!  

[Jorgen]

Sounds very good and interesting as always @Wolf_pd Keep up the good work 😊

One question: in the beginning of this project you talked about shifting continents, as you have one left because of N-A and S-A merging. Is it technically possible to use less or more than 6 continents? Or is there for example a workaround for this to setup your continental cups a bit differently? I was thinking about 8 continents for my own project. Or, if it is 6, then to create just 8 regional Champions Cups, 8 regional Cup Winners Cups, etc.

[Wolf_pd]

18 minutes ago, Jorgen said:

Sounds very good and interesting as always @Wolf_pd Keep up the good work 😊

One question: in the beginning of this project you talked about shifting continents, as you have one left because of N-A and S-A merging. Is it technically possible to use less or more than 6 continents? Or is there for example a workaround for this to setup your continental cups a bit differently? I was thinking about 8 continents for my own project. Or, if it is 6, then to create just 8 regional Champions Cups, 8 regional Cup Winners Cups, etc.

Adding a continent isn't possible. There is already a 7th continent which is the continent world. Using less than 5 continent isn't an issue, just remove every data from the one continent you aren't going to use. It's just that you can't remove it from the game, so it would end up a holder for nations like Mayotte and Wallis & Futune as a sort of unaffiliated leftover area. The one thing you can do if you want more continent is just to split them on competition level. If you work with all nations from the same continent, that's quite easy and you can work in a sort of subcontinent way. If working with nations from more than one continent you end up with a competition on the world tab.

[Jorgen]

On 25/02/2023 at 16:17, Wolf_pd said:

Adding a continent isn't possible. There is already a 7th continent which is the continent world. Using less than 5 continent isn't an issue, just remove every data from the one continent you aren't going to use. It's just that you can't remove it from the game, so it would end up a holder for nations like Mayotte and Wallis & Futune as a sort of unaffiliated leftover area. The one thing you can do if you want more continent is just to split them on competition level. If you work with all nations from the same continent, that's quite easy and you can work in a sort of subcontinent way. If working with nations from more than one continent you end up with a competition on the world tab.

OK, thanks! I would probably have to use teams from multiple continents for some cups, so that would mean creating regional champions leagues that end up on the world tab.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Jorgen

[Wolf_pd]

I am quietly working on the Illinois Confederation when the Covid let's me, but I am somewhere between bed and brainfog, so there are delays on the route.

[Jorgen]

Take care @Wolf_pd

Your health is far more important 

[grade]

all good thoughts on your recovery.

[Wolf_pd]

Yesterday I got a question from a user with regards to which methods to use to fill the history for his competitions. As history is obvious a major component of the Historical Divergence Project (it's in the name ), I thought it would be an interesting piece to share. I have to add here that his historical setup has a lot more depth than the national histories I have written down, and depth is always a bonus. The question came down to whether to use the existing results and use a mathematical formule, or  completely simulate each match in a fictitious way using weights, odds and a number generator.

Below is my answer to that, as I had already been dabbling a bit into testing my methods.

================================================================================================================

That's a good question. I have been using several systems to determine those outcomes for both Iron Curtain and as a tryout for the Historical Divergence.

I usually start with historical results as they give a sense of strength for each region. When the timelines change that is an issue though.

So for a test on the Frisia nation I combined the Dutch, Belgian and French results (Belgian and French only the applicable areas) and used the Dutch competition style for the determination of the results. The Dutch competition played in separate districts until the 50s and with those Belgian and French areas added, that likely still would have been like that. Also, Belgium played in two separate districts for a while and the French area isn't that big, so using this worked out very well.

When I was looking at Nahua, I ended up with a timegap of several decades between the start of competitive football in Mexico and my historical start. That's where I had to work out which tournament and tournament style bridges that gap. Added to that, I also needed to work out which teams bridge that gap. I am still working out the gap exactly, but I can make use of the history as well. My own Nahia history mentions that football tournaments were played where the Mexican war of independence wasn't going on and you would expect teams from the quieter regions to be stronger. To find those regions I can just take the historical account and map out the movements and activity according to that. In your cases, since your history has been worked out quite deeply already, I would say that it might have some impact on cities having more inhabitants which makes them possible stronger (more local talent) and you can give each team a weighted value based on variables (inhabitants, economics, area, etc) and use the number generator. It's an interesting idea actually. I am not sure I will need it (although I used a compensation factor in the Frisian history test to make for some more interesting outcomes, penalties and bonuses for teams).

So while I have no straight answer for you, I think football history (if available) and regional history should be able to help, especially considering your more in depth approach.

================================================================================================================

Obviously this method is only going to work when you can reuse existing results. So resetting club football history both national and international will be easier than resetting the history for say the Copa America where there is suddenly an influx of nations that previously weren't there or where you have work out how to combine the Gold Cup (played each two years) and the Copa America (played eacher four years).

[Fire0Fart]

Will you show more maps like the south American one?

[Wolf_pd]

Yes, when North America is finished I will create a new map for the complete area.

[Sambamtime]

On 31/01/2023 at 11:29, Wolf_pd said:

Nation: Taíno
Offical long name: The Commonwealth of Taíno
Language(s): Spanish
Capital: San Juan
National stadium: Estadio Centroamericano
Borders: West Hayti. south Caribbean Sea, north Lucaya and east Atlantic Ocean

Before independence the island nation of Taíno was a Spanish colonial posession with the name Puerto Rico. When the Napoleonic wars hit Spain, Puerto Rico was one of the areas that stayed loyal. As a result Puerto Rico received small gains in autonomy and rights. However, when the king returned those gains were removed and Puerto Rico was back to the status of a colony. Puerto Rico was pulled into the Spanish-American war when the United States attacked Spanish Florida. An attack on Cuba and Puerto Rico followed. While the Spanish army would win the war, they would also conclude that the American colonies were taking too much effort to defend, while the economic situation in Florida and both islands did not give much in return. The island of Puerto Rico would be given independence in 1898 with the new name of Taíno, named after the original people of the island.

While football was played when Taíno was still Spanish, organized football did not start until 1900. The Taíno national football would not take part in the Caribbean, Central American or American championships until 1940. Taíno has not been a very succesfull nation. On a governmental level Taíno has considered federating with Florida, which would have meant the national team of Taíno would have been merged with the Floridean team. Question is whether any Taíno international would ever have a chance to take the field for Florida.

Next up is Bermuda

Since you are going to use the Taíno as the basis for Puerto Rico, I suggest that you use the Taíno name for Puerto Rico instead, which is Borinquen (The Commonwealth of Borinquen).

Additionally, that would mean the demonym for them would be Boricua.

Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rico#Etymology, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Ricans, https://www.discoverpuertorico.com/live-boricua

Otherwise, good stuff! I'm really interested to see the development with this project 

[Wolf_pd]

2 hours ago, Sambamtime said:

Since you are going to use the Taíno as the basis for Puerto Rico, I suggest that you use the Taíno name for Puerto Rico instead, which is Borinquen (The Commonwealth of Borinquen).

Additionally, that would mean the demonym for them would be Boricua.

Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rico#Etymology, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Ricans, https://www.discoverpuertorico.com/live-boricua

Otherwise, good stuff! I'm really interested to see the development with this project 

Thanks, will use that as base from here on.

Edit: And the namechange has been processed!

[Wolf_pd]

After some work on the Iron Curtain has learned me some valuable lessons after converting data to a new version, with 16K in errors.... I at least know what not to do next time  The work on the nation, local regions and city can continue since that is 'master reference data' which only will be added to and not change too much, but club data and even more so player data is much more fluid. So there I can only do nationalities (again because of less chance in changes), while other changes will have to wait. That will also likely mean there will have to be a final version where i will finish in, even if newer versions come out. But hey, that's almost 10 years in the future

I have also worked a bit on the Illinois Confederation history which is now set up until April 14th 1865, and yes, I do realise that is oddly specific  But it is a pivotal moment in the history of the confederation and that day will become a rallying cry for the Illiniwek.

[Jorgen]

Lincoln in Springfield?

[Wolf_pd]

On 19/03/2023 at 03:05, Jorgen said:

Lincoln in Springfield?

Washington DC, but you are right with Lincoln. He was assasinated April 14th 1865 and since Lincoln was a man from Illinois (which caused large waves of volunteers to join the Union army), his murder will have a big effect on the psyche of the Confederation.

[Wolf_pd]

The good news is I will have a map for you soon.

The bad news is that work the last month has not been pretty and that will continue until the end of June. So while I will work on this from time to time, it's not top priority. Obviously since it is in early stages it is much easier of course to jump into the editor for half an hour, do some work and put it aside again.

So that also means the history for the last nations will take a little longer. The Illinois Confederation is at a turning point right now (already past April 14 1865), but I have to determine the knockon effect on the surrounding nations.