TIs vs PIs | Explanations

[dzek]

Can anyone explain the difference in these instructions, if they are equal and how they work on FM23?

Team Instructions: Green

Player Instructions: Red

In Possession:

1. Pass Into Space / Take More Risks
2. Work Ball Into Box / Shoot Less Often / Cross Less Often
3. Shoot On Sight / Shoot More Often
4. Hit Early Crosses / Cross More Often / Cross From Deep / Cross From Byline
5. Run At Defence / Dribble More

Out Of Possession:

1. Stay On Feet / Ease Off Tackles
2. Get Stuck In / Tackle Harder

 

I have read the text description but i need some more clarity.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Theodoros Yiorkas

[Andros]

I would have thought that 4) hit early crosses was about location rather than how often.  So maybe the same as 'cross from deep'.

The rest look similar to me, just for the 1 player instead of the whole team.   BUT i am not one of those who is an expert on how things work in the match engine, just applying my own logic

[dzek]

@Andros I agree "Cross From Deep" sounds more equal than "Cross More Often" but they can be also both.

Maybe someone(maybe a SI developer) with more knowledge about this topic could explain us and clarify this a little bit further.

[Cleon]

1 - Pass into space is a pass which isn't to the players feet. It's passed into space for him to run onto instead. Take more risks means the player will pass the ball even if there is a 10% chance that it will be successful. I.e the player is going to be more risky and attempt stuff even if the success rate is low. Both of these settings are different and not the same thing.

2 - Work ball into the box tells players to pass the ball around much more often. So you're basically retaining the ball more and encouraging passing more. Note the word encouraging, it doesn't mean you won't cross, do through balls, pass it long, shoot from distance etc. Shoot less often and cross left often are exactly what they say. Again all settings do a different thing, though there might be slight cross over.

3 - The opposite of works ball into the box. Players will shoot even if its a low chance of being successful. Shoots more often asks the player to shoot when a decent chance is on, rather than passing. Again both settings are different as the TI is asking players to shoot when it's a low percentage. While the PI is asking players to shoot more rather than pass when they have a decent chance.

4 - With hit early crosses, it's the first thing on the players mind. So they'll look to cross more as soon as they can, regardless of their position. The TI is telling the players how to behave with regards to crosses. Cross more often asks the player to cross more often when in an area they're position works in. So a CWB for example will cross from whatever normal areas he goes to rather than maybe passing. You're telling him to forget passing and cross instead 99% of the time. Cross from deep tells the players they don't have to wait until they reach a specific position to be able to cross the ball and it doesn't have to be the first thing they think of. Just that is a cross is on, they can do it before the final third. Cross from byline does exactly what it says. Tells people to always look going to the byline before crossing and not to do it before. All of the PI's are encouraging the player to do this action more often from specific areas. Again very different to the TI.

5 - Run at defence is instructing the attacking players (AML/R/AMC/Strikers) to run at the defenders more often. The TI is telling them to run towards the defenders in the hope they panic/make a mistake/catch them off guard. Dribble more is a PI that is asking the individual to take people on rather than passing. Again both completely different to each other.

[Andrew Marines]

1 ora fa, Theodoros Yiorkas ha scritto:

@Andros I agree "Cross From Deep" sounds more equal than "Cross More Often" but they can be also both.

Maybe someone(maybe a SI developer) with more knowledge about this topic could explain us and clarify this a little bit further.

Cross from deep is an instruction that should make the player not cross from the byline but from deeper in the field

Why should you cross from deep. The difference with a goal from the byline is that the defense gotta run backwards to get in the position to block the cross, while they don't need to do it with a cross from the byline.

As you can see, IRL, this type of cross will even lead to more goals than byline crosses. However, this is not something we can actually do in the game(at least, in FM22 where i still play. I'm not a dev tho).I know, you can tick that option and they should do it. Well, they don't. tried with a lot of settings and mentalities, they don't. If you don't believe, go into the game, tick that option and watch at the end of the match where the crosses come from.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Andrew Marines

[dzek]

58 minutes ago, Cleon said:

1 - Pass into space is a pass which isn't to the players feet. It's passed into space for him to run onto instead. Take more risks means the player will pass the ball even if there is a 10% chance that it will be successful. I.e the player is going to be more risky and attempt stuff even if the success rate is low. Both of these settings are different and not the same thing.

2 - Work ball into the box tells players to pass the ball around much more often. So you're basically retaining the ball more and encouraging passing more. Note the word encouraging, it doesn't mean you won't cross, do through balls, pass it long, shoot from distance etc. Shoot less often and cross left often are exactly what they say. Again all settings do a different thing, though there might be slight cross over.

3 - The opposite of works ball into the box. Players will shoot even if its a low chance of being successful. Shoots more often asks the player to shoot when a decent chance is on, rather than passing. Again both settings are different as the TI is asking players to shoot when it's a low percentage. While the PI is asking players to shoot more rather than pass when they have a decent chance.

4 - With hit early crosses, it's the first thing on the players mind. So they'll look to cross more as soon as they can, regardless of their position. The TI is telling the players how to behave with regards to crosses. Cross more often asks the player to cross more often when in an area they're position works in. So a CWB for example will cross from whatever normal areas he goes to rather than maybe passing. You're telling him to forget passing and cross instead 99% of the time. Cross from deep tells the players they don't have to wait until they reach a specific position to be able to cross the ball and it doesn't have to be the first thing they think of. Just that is a cross is on, they can do it before the final third. Cross from byline does exactly what it says. Tells people to always look going to the byline before crossing and not to do it before. All of the PI's are encouraging the player to do this action more often from specific areas. Again very different to the TI.

5 - Run at defence is instructing the attacking players (AML/R/AMC/Strikers) to run at the defenders more often. The TI is telling them to run towards the defenders in the hope they panic/make a mistake/catch them off guard. Dribble more is a PI that is asking the individual to take people on rather than passing. Again both completely different to each other.

Very clear answers! Thank you @Cleon.

But I have two questions.

1. Run At Defence:  As this TI is underneath Final Third section in "In Possession", anyone except AML/R AMC ST get into that area (maybe from a corner or attacking free kick) will they encourage to do this TI or not?
2. How is it possible for a CWB to go the byline and instead of cross, give a pass-cut back?

 

9 minutes ago, Andrew Marines said:

Cross from deep is an instruction that should make the player not cross from the byline but from deeper in the field

Why should you cross from deep. The difference with a goal from the byline is that the defense gotta run backwards to get in the position to block the cross, while they don't need to do it with a cross from the byline.

As you can see, IRL, this type of cross will even lead to more goals than byline crosses. However, this is not something we can actually do in the game(at least, in FM22 where i still play. I'm not a dev tho).I know, you can tick that option and they should do it. Well, they don't. tried with a lot of settings and mentalities, they don't. If you don't believe, go into the game, tick that option and watch at the end of the match where the crosses come from.

Indeed but in this year ME changes so maybe there is a workaround for this. I do believe you @Andrew Marines 

[CARRERA]

2 hours ago, Theodoros Yiorkas said:

Team Instructions: Green

Player Instructions: Red

In Possession:

1. Pass Into Space / Take More Risks
2. Work Ball Into Box / Shoot Less Often / Cross Less Often
3. Shoot On Sight / Shoot More Often
4. Hit Early Crosses / Cross More Often / Cross From Deep / Cross From Byline
5. Run At Defence / Dribble More

Out Of Possession:

1. Stay On Feet / Ease Off Tackles
2. Get Stuck In / Tackle Harder

Unfortunately its not that easy as others mentioned already and for some reason FM is really bad at explaining their mechanics for whatever reason. 
I would always recommend to use the official manual additionally to the information provided ingame.

 

[Cleon]

11 minutes ago, Theodoros Yiorkas said:

Very clear answers! Thank you @Cleon.

But I have two questions.

1. Run At Defence:  As this TI is underneath Final Third section in "In Possession", anyone except AML/R AMC ST get into that area (maybe from a corner or attacking free kick) will they encourage to do this TI or not?
2. How is it possible for a CWB to go the byline and instead of cross, give a pass-cut back?

 

Indeed but in this year ME changes so maybe there is a workaround for this. I do believe you @Andrew Marines 

1. If you had someone in the MR/ML positions they would but don't think anyone else would from what I remember.

2. If you want players to cut back then you won't to encourage less crossing in general and have actual supporting players who they can cut back to. So the players role surrounding the CWB are just as important as the CWB's role.

[dzek]

30 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

Unfortunately its not that easy as others mentioned already and for some reason FM is really bad at explaining their mechanics for whatever reason. 
I would always recommend to use the official manual additionally to the information provided ingame.

 

Thats why we need clarifications about these. Because anyone can easily confused.

 

21 minutes ago, Cleon said:

2. If you want players to cut back then you won't to encourage less crossing in general and have actual supporting players who they can cut back to. So the players role surrounding the CWB are just as important as the CWB's role.

Its just what i want. I dont want him to cross from byline but instead i want him to go in that area and pass inside the penalty area. This seems to produce more goals than a low cross from byline.

[Aoyao]

Here is the Pass Into Space.

 

 

 

The open space for run to reach,not on feet.

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Aoyao

[Aoyao]

11 hours ago, Andrew Marines said:

Cross from deep is an instruction that should make the player not cross from the byline but from deeper in the field

Why should you cross from deep. The difference with a goal from the byline is that the defense gotta run backwards to get in the position to block the cross, while they don't need to do it with a cross from the byline.

As you can see, IRL, this type of cross will even lead to more goals than byline crosses. However, this is not something we can actually do in the game(at least, in FM22 where i still play. I'm not a dev tho).I know, you can tick that option and they should do it. Well, they don't. tried with a lot of settings and mentalities, they don't. If you don't believe, go into the game, tick that option and watch at the end of the match where the crosses come from.

 

Agree with you.

[phnompenhandy]

15 hours ago, Theodoros Yiorkas said:

@Andros I agree "Cross From Deep" sounds more equal than "Cross More Often" but they can be also both.

Maybe someone(maybe a SI developer) with more knowledge about this topic could explain us and clarify this a little bit further.

The difference is in space and time. Maybe you need to be a SciFi fan to get it.

[Aoyao]

here are some clips about D-Line STEP UP MORE or DROP OFF MORE

1.DROP OFF MORE

Loook at blue team's D-Line,when Targett recived ball and toward blue's goal.

 

 

[Aoyao]

2.STEP UP MORE

look at Ekpiteta whom in the blue team's D-line.

[Cleon]

I explained the d-line, step up more and drop off yesterday here;

 

[Aoyao]

5 minutes ago, Cleon said:

I explained the d-line, step up more and drop off yesterday here;

 

That's great.

I'll read it at soon.

[dzek]

5 hours ago, Aoyao said:

 

Agree with you.

Is this FM23 in the 2 first photos? 
If its yours, how many times you saw this movement from your players?

[dzek]

2 hours ago, Aoyao said:

here are some clips about D-Line STEP UP MORE or DROP OFF MORE

1.DROP OFF MORE

Loook at blue team's D-Line,when Targett recived ball and toward blue's goal.

 

 

I think this doesn't explain drop off more or at least is not doing anything as it is describe in text description of the TI.

Defensive Line TIs (step up more, drop off more) are explained somehow like pressing from the back. Its not an offside trap etc.
 

2 hours ago, Aoyao said:

2.STEP UP MORE

look at Ekpiteta whom in the blue team's D-line.

This isn't weird? As one player from the back goes up to press and the other one stays behind. This is kind of PIs and not TIs.

[Cleon]

6 minutes ago, Theodoros Yiorkas said:

I think this doesn't explain drop off more or at least is not doing anything as it is describe in text description of the TI.

Defensive Line TIs (step up more, drop off more) are explained somehow like pressing from the back. Its not an offside trap etc.
 

This isn't weird? As one player from the back goes up to press and the other one stays behind. This is kind of PIs and not TIs.

His examples imo aren't the drop deeper/step up instructions at play at all.  For a better explanation here;

Thanks. I'm about 4k words in so far and posted a little snippet on social media earlier. But I'll post it here too to wet the appetite;

I've seen a lot of confusion surrounding the defensive line and the new settings step up, drop off more. So here is a little something from an article I am writing;

I use a high defensive line but in this scenario, we are slightly deeper than usual due to the shape of the opposition and how they set up. This impacts your own defensive line and can push it back. It’s worth noting that even with a high defensive line, it will look slightly different from game to game. So don’t expect high to always mean pushed up to the halfway line, lots of factors can alter the initial position.

So here we can see the defensive line we are holding. The opposition player, Souza is going to drive forward or pass the ball. This is where your defensive line setting kicks into action. If you don’t use the step-up or drop-off more instructions then the defensive line will just behave like usual. But if you use the step-up instruction then in the image above, the players will be looking to step up at this point.

As they know there is possible danger and you’ve instructed them to step up. So they’d look to reduce the space between the ball carrier/passer and play the attacking players offside. With the step-up team instruction, you are possibly conceding space behind your defensive line to reduce the space in front of them between the ball and themselves.

If we were using the drop-off more instruction then they’ll be more cautious and if no one is pressing the ball immediately, then they’ll begin to drop deeper. So in this type of scenario, you’d conceded space in front of the defence to reduce the space behind them. This can be handy for cutting out those direct balls to the attackers or balls played over the top behind your defensive line. Rather than your defensive line remaining high and increasing the chance they’ll get turned and beat for pace you can minimise the risk of this as they retreat backwards. Allowing you to stay tight and compact.

[dzek]

@Cleon so TI step up more should produce many offsides for opponents?

[Cleon]

8 hours ago, Theodoros Yiorkas said:

@Cleon so TI step up more should produce many offsides for opponents?

Potentially depending on how intelligent the players are, yes.

[dzek]

So after many tests etc about what actually step up more does, he didnt find anything different.

 

[Cleon]

It does make a difference, I use it. I've shown above what it does and SI clearly states here how it works;

The issue with that Youtube channel is, the user doesn't understand what he's testing or how something should and does behave but jumps to conclusions about what he thinks it should do, which isn't the same thing. I've not seen him post anything worth taking note of yet. He just posts a lot of misinformation that people then run with as a fact. 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Cleon

[phnompenhandy]

3 hours ago, dzek said:

So after many tests etc about what actually step up more does, he didnt find anything different.

 

He admitted in a follow-up video that he'd misunderstood it. He was testing to see if the instructions operated over 90 minutes, which was a complete misunderstanding of how defenders handle offside moments.