Íbis Sport Club - The Attributeless, Blind Scouting, 5-2-2-1 Years!

[Cleon]

I'll be wrapping this thread up in the coming weeks and adding the final chapters. As I'll be starting a new project.

[HanziZoloman]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Cleon:

It takes time to make the small tweaks you need to make

Thanks for the feedback @Cleon 

I’ll watch the AP und press pause (I did. and described my findings, my players almost have no PPMs). I‘d really like to get the AP more involved and create something like your Canó is playing.

[HanziZoloman]

@Cleon got some time to play matches. Thanks for your feedback it’s very helpful. You’re right we are big overachieving and my striker is netting regularly, something which isn’t regular for my underdogs (I usually play). 
The SS is very good either, constantly having and creating chances. The numbers of course aren’t as high as yours but you‘re right, it’s the second season. 
The AP is playing better without Bär in his back who used to be an AM and now is playing the DM. Maybe he was too much up front (no PPMs anywhere in the team) due to his natural role. But still the AP is still not satisfying. I have four players for this position and need to play them all for stats as I try to ignore Attributes and stars.
actually: 1-2 key passes per game and .60 chances created per game. This can be better.

Oops didn’t notice that posting with the final chapter! Looking forward to learn more.

and btw the poster sounds amazing, thumbs up!

 

 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[poma]

On 07/02/2023 at 21:30, Sammie B said:

Did you just remove work ball into box or did you also remove dribble less and change to just shorter passing rather than much shorter as well as mentioned earlier in the thread?

I haven't seen him mention anything...?

[Cleon]

1 hour ago, poma said:

I haven't seen him mention anything...?

I answered them and told them, I made all the changes mentioned in the analysis piece after they asked. My response is literally below the reply you quoted 😂

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Cleon

[HanziZoloman]

I won't get the gates closed. We play good games, we lead and before half time we give the games away with stupid mistakes.

It's frustrating and I am in desperate need of help, we lost 8 games straight.

[Cleon]

What is the context of how you are playing though? Is it good overall? Poor? Not creating chances? It can't all be down to silly mistakes.

Also how do you do game management? What changes do you make when stuff starts to go wrong in game. And how do you manage the squad in general, are players getting tired etc?

[HanziZoloman]

vor 15 Stunden schrieb Cleon:

What is the context of how you are playing though? Is it good overall? Poor? Not creating chances? It can't all be down to silly mistakes.

Also how do you do game management? What changes do you make when stuff starts to go wrong in game. And how do you manage the squad in general, are players getting tired etc?

Thanks for all the help you offer.

Well before I switched to an ultra aggressive variant of the possession based tactic (5221) the games were just lost, my xG was low and the opponents xG was high. The goals were clear goals. Someone slicing my defence with a dribbling, long ball or cross like ham. All my adapting which worked so fine in 2nd division was futile with quality of 1st division.

With that ultra aggressive variant (like much higher DL and stuff) we‘re gaining an edge. Now even our xG is sometimes higher then our opponents. The don’t slice my defence like before but score with a long shot or a header from a corner. They must work hard for every chance now. Despite that, we‘re still losing the games but now there’s a silver lining. We‘re losing closer and sometimes we‘re in front still after halftime. 
Your questions: When we concede I try to watch the highlight and figure out where it all went bad and try to shut it out. I believe I’m still struggling in this part not knowing exactly what to look at. 
I try to keep the players fresh and happy. I do a lot of talking and rotating the squad every game in positions which need a rest.

Edited March 19, 2023 by HanziZoloman

[hotredabyss]

I haven't read all the parts, but just by the first posts it's such a great insight on your proccess thought, and definitely will use some of those ideas as a basis once i read everything

Anyway, maybe a innocent question, but how did the Segundo Volante performed being on the same side as the AP? I actually always avoided that bc i saw someone saying that the AP would get in the way of the SV when he makes runs, i never used this combination so i can't really say that is true or not

[Cleon]

9 hours ago, hotredabyss said:

I haven't read all the parts, but just by the first posts it's such a great insight on your proccess thought, and definitely will use some of those ideas as a basis once i read everything

Anyway, maybe a innocent question, but how did the Segundo Volante performed being on the same side as the AP? I actually always avoided that bc i saw someone saying that the AP would get in the way of the SV when he makes runs, i never used this combination so i can't really say that is true or not

It's not true. It's no different than using a wingback and a winger on the same side of the pitch who go into the same space. It creates combination play and great link up play. It's how you cause overloads. Not sure why someone would say they get in each others way. They'd not say the same about a striker dropping deep so the inside forwards can pass them into the box. The AP and SV are same principles in that regard. You want them to link up.

[HanziZoloman]

@hotredabyss I can tell the same. I am using Cleon’s Tactic with slight tweaks (SS instead of AF) and with the right players (!) SV and AP link up beautiful. The AP holds the ball looking for an opportunity and the SV passing him for a one-two or a through ball. 
Or the AP is being marked out of the game causing the SV playing through balls from deep into the SS. You‘ll need a dynamic player for this role with enough work rate and stamina. My SV was signed for the AP role first but didn’t flourish there and found his place in the SV after all.

 

[wearesporting]

My first save in 23 I ended up in this formation and was slowly morphing into what you have here. Main role difference was the box to box / segundo wasn't positioned behind the more creative midfielder but on the other side and the CM on attack (or shadow striker) in front was given freedom to roam as he saw fit with the segundo and wing back on support reacting accordingly with regards getting forward.

One thing about it was the players need to be very right for it. It could be simplified for lesser able players for it to work for their level but they still need to have certain key attributes present or it won't happen for them.

I found this out the hard way using it on a journeyman save. Went to a new club which promised me a larger wage budget. And it was doing well. They then promptly halved the budget and went into administration. The players I tried to replace firesold players with, I couldn't afford those with the right attributes. Now I'm intending spending my last year with them saving them from relegation before seeking higher budgets elsewhere.

Also to echo others' thoughts forums like this are probably doomed going forward. Their time may be up. All about plug ins and video content more and more. Long form communication generally is petering out. Even the written word is condensing into the likes of discord and twitter and videos are falling to shorts/reels etc. So I wouldn't judge this form of content on participation levels anymore and be disheartened by it. Not on this medium.

Edited April 15, 2023 by wearesporting

[Cleon]

On 15/04/2023 at 08:01, wearesporting said:

My first save in 23 I ended up in this formation and was slowly morphing into what you have here. Main role difference was the box to box / segundo wasn't positioned behind the more creative midfielder but on the other side and the CM on attack (or shadow striker) in front was given freedom to roam as he saw fit with the segundo and wing back on support reacting accordingly with regards getting forward.

One thing about it was the players need to be very right for it. It could be simplified for lesser able players for it to work for their level but they still need to have certain key attributes present or it won't happen for them.

I found this out the hard way using it on a journeyman save. Went to a new club which promised me a larger wage budget. And it was doing well. They then promptly halved the budget and went into administration. The players I tried to replace firesold players with, I couldn't afford those with the right attributes. Now I'm intending spending my last year with them saving them from relegation before seeking higher budgets elsewhere.

Also to echo others' thoughts forums like this are probably doomed going forward. Their time may be up. All about plug ins and video content more and more. Long form communication generally is petering out. Even the written word is condensing into the likes of discord and twitter and videos are falling to shorts/reels etc. So I wouldn't judge this form of content on participation levels anymore and be disheartened by it. Not on this medium.

I'm actually attributeless and because I started in the 6th tier of Brazil, I doubt I had ideal players for the roles. All the players start with low single digits it seems. I'm also a believer that while attributes are important just because someone is lacking in something doesn't mean he can't fulfil the role asked of him. I think people put far too much emphasis on attributes at times and overthink a players skillset or have a predetermined idea that someone can't do something just because the attribute is low. 

[HanziZoloman]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Cleon:

I'm actually attributeless and because I started in the 6th tier of Brazil, I doubt I had ideal players for the roles. All the players start with low single digits it seems. I'm also a believer that while attributes are important just because someone is lacking in something doesn't mean he can't fulfil the role asked of him. I think people put far too much emphasis on attributes at times and overthink a players skillset or have a predetermined idea that someone can't do something just because the attribute is low. 

That’s an experience I did as well and it was astonishing. 
Actually I am in the youth only challenge and have players with passing 3 or marking 4 and something and I again rely on this tactical approach because numbers are mostly not that relevant. That’s great! 
but @Cleon the 3rd evolution of the tactic seems a bit too demanding for my 16 years old and I progress with the 2nd version. I read everything again but this time with the experience. That’s great. 
Did you had issues with defending too when you were in the Beginning with Ibis and how did you addressed them?

[Cleon]

12 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

That’s an experience I did as well and it was astonishing. 
Actually I am in the youth only challenge and have players with passing 3 or marking 4 and something and I again rely on this tactical approach because numbers are mostly not that relevant. That’s great! 
but @Cleon the 3rd evolution of the tactic seems a bit too demanding for my 16 years old and I progress with the 2nd version. I read everything again but this time with the experience. That’s great. 
Did you had issues with defending too when you were in the Beginning with Ibis and how did you addressed them?

The 3rd version and what it evolved into was because I was having issues scoring. I'd have not used that to begin with. That was just because I needed to add more chances and creative play to my game as I stopped being an underdog.

[HanziZoloman]

That’s good to know. Starting level two should work?

[poma]

Totally forgot, any use of Pi's here?

[Cleon]

16 hours ago, poma said:

Totally forgot, any use of Pi's here?

Not unless stated 

[Volkditty]

Late to the party as always, but I wanted to say how much I enjoyed reading this thread. It's inspired me to give the attribute-less skin a go in my next start. I especially appreciate the detailed breakdown of the how and why of interpreting the data hub and statistics to tell what's going on. This is an area I need a lot of practice with as I'm very guilty of panicking and making wholesale tactical changes when something isn't working instead of applying logical action.

[Cleon]

4 hours ago, Volkditty said:

Late to the party as always, but I wanted to say how much I enjoyed reading this thread. It's inspired me to give the attribute-less skin a go in my next start. I especially appreciate the detailed breakdown of the how and why of interpreting the data hub and statistics to tell what's going on. This is an area I need a lot of practice with as I'm very guilty of panicking and making wholesale tactical changes when something isn't working instead of applying logical action.

Thanks for the kind words

[SPE3D]

@Cleon Hi Cleon I have recently come back to FM and have just finished reading the first two pages of this thread with interest. 

Apologies if it's been asked elsewhere but I am intrigued why you chose to use wide centre backs when you first started as a division 6 Brazil side.

I know you couldn't see their attributes but surely defenders at this level would not have the passing skills to be successful at this role. Or does the passing stat not matter? Would love to know your thoughts about why you chose these roles at this level?

Edited November 16, 2023 by SPE3D

[Cleon]

40 minutes ago, SPE3D said:

@Cleon Hi Cleon I have recently come back to FM and have just finished reading the first two pages of this thread with interest. 

Apologies if it's been asked elsewhere but I am intrigued why you chose to use wide centre backs when you first started as a division 6 Brazil side.

I know you couldn't see their attributes but surely defenders at this level would not have the passing skills to be successful at this role. Or does the passing stat not matter? Would love to know your thoughts about why you chose these roles at this level?

It's all contextual. Any player can play any role. If attributes weren't a thing, players would still fulfill the role regardless. Attributes help the player be better at certain aspects. But you have to remember that even in Division 6 of Brazil, you can still use any role you want, and players will be good at it. If I were to put the Ibis WCB in the Prem, then obviously he'd be less effective as he isn't that type of standard. But for the league he is in, all players at this level are really the same. The opposition will all be of a similar standard, hence why it is contextual.

[SPE3D]

1 hour ago, Cleon said:

It's all contextual. Any player can play any role. If attributes weren't a thing, players would still fulfill the role regardless. Attributes help the player be better at certain aspects. But you have to remember that even in Division 6 of Brazil, you can still use any role you want, and players will be good at it. If I were to put the Ibis WCB in the Prem, then obviously he'd be less effective as he isn't that type of standard. But for the league he is in, all players at this level are really the same. The opposition will all be of a similar standard, hence why it is contextual.

That's where I went wrong. Just been sacked in my Hereford game after just 4 months in charge. I rigidly stuck to basic player roles on the belief that these players could not carry out more advanced instructions. It also didn't help that i refused to play any form of pressing as I have become overzealous in my hatred of the meta gegenpress tactic.