Defensive Tactics

[nb9]

Has anybody managed to get a defensive / solid tactic to actually work on this FM?

I have managed it on many previous versions. I won the league by scoring less goals than games played I was that solid defensively on FM20. But having zero luck on this game, any defensive style just seems to be utterly useless & you HAVE to attack attack attack to have any sort of joy.

Anybody got any evidence to prove me wrong?

 

Example, I got this to work on previous versions and had decent success: 

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by nb9

[Jack722]

I used to never be abe to play defensive football until around FM22 where I challenged myself to use it. I played a whole season in detail using primarily defensive football to varying degrees of success and wrote about it here.

I haven't had as much time to play FM23 so far as I did 22, but I already had a feeling that defensive football was better than last year. When I saw your post I made sure to play my next two games (both away games where I'm only slight favourites) on cautious mentality. And IMO it went pretty well.

^Close game and unfortunate loss, but looking at the stats and gameplay I think the tactic was working as expected.. Low possession for us and poor SoT ratio for the opposition. The tight xG suggests to me that if we played this 5 times over and with our strongest team, we probably would have drawn most of them.

^This was a really nice game to watch with everything coming together beautifully. Only 4 shots on target the whole game with three of them being ours and scoring 2 from them. Mourinho would be proud 

[Ricobran]

I’ve read that the defending in this years version is supposed to be better. I didn’t get into FM22, so stuck to FM21. But for me the defending is terrible. I have been experimenting with defensive tactics using a mid-block and different defensive lines, but still haven’t found a way of defending properly. I’m managing Spurs and have Dier (slow) in the middle of my 3 man defence. I keep seeing my defenders moving out of position to close down players when they don’t need to. I now have all 3 defenders on close down less, but it still keeps happening. I’ve now decided to put Dier on cover to see if that helps. The other problem is the amount of balls played over the top of my defence, even by the oppositions CBs who have poor passing and vision, or CMs when one of my players is right on top of them. I wouldn’t mind so much, but I have rapid forwards/wingers and good passers in the team, but I can very rarely get them to play balls over the top.

This is going to take some more experimenting, but I’m getting pretty fed up with it. 

[davenumber40]

I'm really struggling with sorting out my defense as well. I watched some streams the other day and it was definitely a theme. 

From what I can tell in my save the defense is pushing way to high up the pitch even in a lower block, low line of engagement and a cautious mentality. I noticed my back 4 standing on the halfway line with this set up. DM's are also push too high up. I'm using an anchorman and even with a cautious mentality he is almost arriving late in the box. 

[nb9]

Glad I am not the only one then.

I also read that it's much better, so it was really annoying when I got my hand on the game and found it borderline impossible for me to make a defensive tactic work. I share your frustrations.

I was hoping the main thing to come from this game was them making it so the only way to play this game wasn't Gegenpress attack attack attack.

Edited December 11, 2022 by nb9

[Ricobran]

I have since cheated and watched a YouTube video that was very helpful. I’m now playing 3 defenders with wingbacks. 3 in midfield, and 2 upfront. It worked well in the first 2 games, beating Brentford and Arsenal, but then lost 4-1 away to PSG. I’m going to see how it goes with some tweaking. 

[Englishhammer]

18 hours ago, Ricobran said:

I have since cheated and watched a YouTube video that was very helpful. I’m now playing 3 defenders with wingbacks. 3 in midfield, and 2 upfront. It worked well in the first 2 games, beating Brentford and Arsenal, but then lost 4-1 away to PSG. I’m going to see how it goes with some tweaking. 

Let me know how it goes, I spent most of FM22 trying something similar. Worked for a while until an update unfortunately 

[nb9]

Ok, so I have been experimenting all month with defensive tactics and my conclusion is that it's impossible to get one to work well. The reality is, the more defensive you are in this game the more likely you are to concede goals. I couldn't ever consistently keep clean sheets with a very defensive tactic.

I played 6 full seasons as Nacional in the Portugese second division over and over again with varying defensive tactics and then did the last season with an extremely attacking tactic. Can anyone guess which tactic kept the most clean sheets and best defensive record? Yes - it was the Very Attacking one with everybody pressing like rampant up the other end of the pitch - this was by a long way as well.

I can post some more detail of my findings if anybody is interested?

But it feels like the problem of FM in recent years only having one way of playing to be successful has never been more accurate than with this match engine, which is extremely disapointing considering they weren't the sounds coming out pre-release. Can anyone prove my theory wrong? 

Edited December 23, 2022 by nb9

[vrig]

I've just finished season one with Brighton playing a low block in every match, 442 most of the time, with my 'Tactical Style' down as Park the Bus according to the game.

Finished 4th with the 3rd best defense in the league behind the usual suspects, so it's definitely possible to overachieve with it.

I don't doubt it might have been an easier season if I hadn't set myself the challenge of playing defensively, because setting up a high press is just ridiculously easy most of the time, but I can't agree that there's only one way to win, at all.

[GIMN]

Seem to be doing alright, albeit I've yet to complete my first season yet:

I do spend a lot of time analysing my opposition, making adjustments a week ahead so that it can be part of the training focus for the upcoming week.  On that basis I might sometimes deploy a 3-4-2-1, sometimes a 3-4-1-2, but the tactical instructions are always the same:

Talent wise, we are far away from being the best in the league.  We were predicted 9th, we lack much in the way of height or speed in defence, and our wing-backs are converted wingers that are constantly moaning about being played out of position.

[Englishhammer]

23 hours ago, nb9 said:

I can post some more detail of my findings if anybody is interested?

Always up for detail if you can be bothered.

[HiggyTMT]

I've always used defensive tactics since around FM19. Really enjoy this style, grinding out alot of low scoring wins. I'm currently using this tactic in my Northern Irish save, 2 season to get out of Championship and finished 2nd in first season in the Prem. Ended up conceding 33 goals in 38 games which imo isn't good enough but that's down to my squad not being Prem standard yet.

[Ricobran]

On 23/12/2022 at 14:54, GIMN said:

Seem to be doing alright, albeit I've yet to complete my first season yet:

I do spend a lot of time analysing my opposition, making adjustments a week ahead so that it can be part of the training focus for the upcoming week.  On that basis I might sometimes deploy a 3-4-2-1, sometimes a 3-4-1-2, but the tactical instructions are always the same:

Talent wise, we are far away from being the best in the league.  We were predicted 9th, we lack much in the way of height or speed in defence, and our wing-backs are converted wingers that are constantly moaning about being played out of position.

I’m interested to know what you look for when analysing the opposition. What do you look for? I literally look at the opposition on the day of the game. If they have a creative player with low pace or dribbling skills I close them down. If they have short strikers I put wingers on their opposite foot. If they are fast with good dribbling stats I tackle hard etc…

[GIMN]

7 minutes ago, Ricobran said:

I’m interested to know what you look for when analysing the opposition. What do you look for? I literally look at the opposition on the day of the game. If they have a creative player with low pace or dribbling skills I close them down. If they have short strikers I put wingers on their opposite foot. If they are fast with good dribbling stats I tackle hard etc…

Usefully, I have written about this in what is, quite frankly, far too much detail here: 

Firstly, I rarely use opposition instructions.  I want to prioritise structure and solidity and so I don't want to give players instructions that might end up compromising that.  There are some exceptions, but they are few and far between.  One example was noticing that a particular opponent was strongly reliant on their double pivot to progress the ball.  As a result, I used my two attacking midfielders to man mark them.  This made it difficult for them to get on the ball and forced the opposition to go wide to the full backs when looking to transition.

But in more general terms, as soon as I have completed a game, I check the data hub for information on the next opponent.  The key bits of information for me are the opposition's formation, playing style and assist location.  This will usually give me a good idea of how and where they try to create chances and I will look to make sure that my plans keep that area secure.  For example with my 3-4-2-1 formation, if the opposition are particularly dangerous down their left flank, I will make sure there is defensive support for our right wing back.  That might mean having a more defensive minded midfielder next to him or instructing my right side attacking midfielder to perform defensive duties on their left back so they can't double up on our right wing back.

Finally, I then check the expected starting lineup and look for weaknesses.  Low average rating is a good starting point, but also looking to see if they have someone filling a job they're not quite suited too.  An undersized centre-back or wrong-footed full-back can often be an area I can look to take advantage.  Like for the opposition strengths, I will try and make adjustments to exploit their vulnerabilities, too.

I'm also a masochist, and watch games in full.  This allows me to identify concerning patterns of play before they become an issue.  Or at least, sometimes they do.

[Rashidi]

On 10/12/2022 at 21:36, nb9 said:

Has anybody managed to get a defensive / solid tactic to actually work on this FM?

I have managed it on many previous versions. I won the league by scoring less goals than games played I was that solid defensively on FM20. But having zero luck on this game, any defensive style just seems to be utterly useless & you HAVE to attack attack attack to have any sort of joy.

Anybody got any evidence to prove me wrong?

You haven't really explained how you want to play defensively apart from posting a tactic.

When two teams take to the pitch to play football, the goal is to win matches. Having a solid defensive structure in place to achieve that goal is just one part of the process. Some teams may only seek to park the bus and aren't interested in going for the winning goal, and other teams might be looking to play a defensive style but with the option to strike on the counter to score a goal.

Defensive systems share common principles
Cover, Control and Balance
Pressure
Compactness

Cover - The relative distances between players that allow them to control space. The midfield will block wide passes and force players into a strong defensive middle (for example).  More than one player will offer defensive help. A player can put an opposition team player under pressure, and in doing so, his area of responsibility is covered by someone else.  To achieve this there has to be a structural balance to the system. For example, in a 532, while wingbacks may be responsible for protecting the flanks, you need adequate cover and balance, so you also need the centre mids in wider areas to support them by doing the initial press/

Pressure - Its the role of the first defender ( any role on the pitch) who happens to be the player closest to the ball. The goal is to deny them time, delay their progression and allow your team to get into position to prevent them from progressing the attack.

Compactness - This refers to the depth of your system. Arrigo Saachi played a style which was compact. The distance between the strikers and the defenders was no more than  25 yards. This compactness makes it hard for teams to find space between the lines. A defensive system needs to deny space between the lines forcing the ball elsewhere.

Teams can either sit back park the bus and hope or use the defensive structure to allow them to win the ball back and launch counters. So how do you want your defensive system to play?

ACHIEVING THIS ON FM
On football manager you can play defensive football on any mentality, naturally the lower mentalities are easier, I play defensive football on positive mentality too. Here we need to understand what mentality means and does in the game.

Mentality modulates behaviour on FM, it affects risk. This in turn affects decision making and is the underlying driver for 5 team instructions. On lower mentalities your players will not try too many risky things, however there are different roles and duties in the game. Using an attacking role like the wingback on an attacking duty will still see that role try and get up the pitch to take part in attacking transitions. 

Say you set up a tactic like yours

 

On 10/12/2022 at 21:36, nb9 said:

 

 

In this tactic, you aren't defensively solid. Your wingbacks need to deal with all the  threats, they are exposed to 2v1 situations if the opposition plays a 424, 442, 433. This requires the HBs to help but they are too deep. IN other words your system is allowing the opposition up the pitch unimpeded, by the time you need to defend its already too late, you have ceded the pitch to the opponents.

You are also forcing the opponents to the most vulnerable area on the pitch. By forcing them outside you are directing them to the one area where you have the least number of players to protect. Imagine you had to defend against an army, you basically sited the bulk of your army in one area and you told the opposing forces to attack you down the weakest flank. Its not defensive football, its harakiri.

You have also set up a much higher defensive line which pushes your team higher up the pitch which does nothing to help your flanks.

With that much lower line of engagement you are sitting super deep which makes matters worse.

With your team sitting so deep you have also told them to play out of defence, while this is not a bad instruction, you have few outlets to bring the ball out without you losing it in transition.

HOW DO YOU FIX IT?
1. Define where you want to win the ball - COVER AND BALANCE
2. Set up in transition instructions correctly for  PRESSURE AND COMPACTNESS

EXAMPLE


Take a look at this example, here I have set up a system that is played on very defensive mentality, my flanks have coverage, I have two roles either side that support defending the flanks. My WCBs are on defend duty. 
I can also use hit early crosses to launch attacks from deeper areas without waiting for my backs to get to the byeline. I am also using a TM(S) so that we can have simpler transitions like balls over the top.

This is fairly aggressive still, but it uses the defensive principles of compactness.

Now lets see another one which is basically my doorbolt system.

Uses the same principles, but here I value compactness, my players don't press like crazy, I want them to hold their position, we sit in a low block, tackle hard and look for the quick out.

Finally.
|

A more flashy system, here I know how the IWBs are going to behave, they wont sit and control the DM space, instead they will be narrower in attack so they should be moving into the channels. I use this system on defensive or very defensive mentalities. When defending we drop into a 7, but when we win the ball the higher defensive line and the attacking duties allows me to get the ball up quick. Here the two flank roles are putting pressure on their wingbacks all the time.

There are plenty of ways to design solid defensive systems on football manager, you just need to have a clear idea of how you want to defend and then you want to use the ball when you have it. Hope this gives you some ideas. I also have to add that @GIMNprovided some good insights too. Very defensive, defensive are just mentalities you can play defensive football on any mentality. On lower mentalities the only real difference is that players are more circumspect with the use of the ball and you will also see attacking roles and duties more likely to come back and help you defend,

[Hailie]

4 hours ago, Rashidi said:

You haven't really explained how you want to play defensively apart from posting a tactic.

When two teams take to the pitch to play football, the goal is to win matches. Having a solid defensive structure in place to achieve that goal is just one part of the process. Some teams may only seek to park the bus and aren't interested in going for the winning goal, and other teams might be looking to play a defensive style but with the option to strike on the counter to score a goal.

Defensive systems share common principles
Cover, Control and Balance
Pressure
Compactness

Cover - The relative distances between players that allow them to control space. The midfield will block wide passes and force players into a strong defensive middle (for example).  More than one player will offer defensive help. A player can put an opposition team player under pressure, and in doing so, his area of responsibility is covered by someone else.  To achieve this there has to be a structural balance to the system. For example, in a 532, while wingbacks may be responsible for protecting the flanks, you need adequate cover and balance, so you also need the centre mids in wider areas to support them by doing the initial press/

Pressure - Its the role of the first defender ( any role on the pitch) who happens to be the player closest to the ball. The goal is to deny them time, delay their progression and allow your team to get into position to prevent them from progressing the attack.

Compactness - This refers to the depth of your system. Arrigo Saachi played a style which was compact. The distance between the strikers and the defenders was no more than  25 yards. This compactness makes it hard for teams to find space between the lines. A defensive system needs to deny space between the lines forcing the ball elsewhere.

Teams can either sit back park the bus and hope or use the defensive structure to allow them to win the ball back and launch counters. So how do you want your defensive system to play?

ACHIEVING THIS ON FM
On football manager you can play defensive football on any mentality, naturally the lower mentalities are easier, I play defensive football on positive mentality too. Here we need to understand what mentality means and does in the game.

Mentality modulates behaviour on FM, it affects risk. This in turn affects decision making and is the underlying driver for 5 team instructions. On lower mentalities your players will not try too many risky things, however there are different roles and duties in the game. Using an attacking role like the wingback on an attacking duty will still see that role try and get up the pitch to take part in attacking transitions. 

Say you set up a tactic like yours

 

In this tactic, you aren't defensively solid. Your wingbacks need to deal with all the  threats, they are exposed to 2v1 situations if the opposition plays a 424, 442, 433. This requires the HBs to help but they are too deep. IN other words your system is allowing the opposition up the pitch unimpeded, by the time you need to defend its already too late, you have ceded the pitch to the opponents.

You are also forcing the opponents to the most vulnerable area on the pitch. By forcing them outside you are directing them to the one area where you have the least number of players to protect. Imagine you had to defend against an army, you basically sited the bulk of your army in one area and you told the opposing forces to attack you down the weakest flank. Its not defensive football, its harakiri.

You have also set up a much higher defensive line which pushes your team higher up the pitch which does nothing to help your flanks.

With that much lower line of engagement you are sitting super deep which makes matters worse.

With your team sitting so deep you have also told them to play out of defence, while this is not a bad instruction, you have few outlets to bring the ball out without you losing it in transition.

HOW DO YOU FIX IT?
1. Define where you want to win the ball - COVER AND BALANCE
2. Set up in transition instructions correctly for  PRESSURE AND COMPACTNESS

EXAMPLE


Take a look at this example, here I have set up a system that is played on very defensive mentality, my flanks have coverage, I have two roles either side that support defending the flanks. My WCBs are on defend duty. 
I can also use hit early crosses to launch attacks from deeper areas without waiting for my backs to get to the byeline. I am also using a TM(S) so that we can have simpler transitions like balls over the top.

This is fairly aggressive still, but it uses the defensive principles of compactness.

Now lets see another one which is basically my doorbolt system.

Uses the same principles, but here I value compactness, my players don't press like crazy, I want them to hold their position, we sit in a low block, tackle hard and look for the quick out.

Finally.
|

A more flashy system, here I know how the IWBs are going to behave, they wont sit and control the DM space, instead they will be narrower in attack so they should be moving into the channels. I use this system on defensive or very defensive mentalities. When defending we drop into a 7, but when we win the ball the higher defensive line and the attacking duties allows me to get the ball up quick. Here the two flank roles are putting pressure on their wingbacks all the time.

There are plenty of ways to design solid defensive systems on football manager, you just need to have a clear idea of how you want to defend and then you want to use the ball when you have it. Hope this gives you some ideas. I also have to add that @GIMNprovided some good insights too. Very defensive, defensive are just mentalities you can play defensive football on any mentality. On lower mentalities the only real difference is that players are more circumspect with the use of the ball and you will also see attacking roles and duties more likely to come back and help you defend,

I'm playing FM17 and this neglects everything I've read on previous FM's guides and previous threads in this forums.

I felt like I knew more about football before reading about tactics in this forums and the guides just led to confusions in creating tactics.

[Rashidi]

1 hour ago, Hailie said:

I'm playing FM17 and this neglects everything I've read on previous FM's guides and previous threads in this forums.

FM17 and FM23 are not the same game

 

[Hailie]

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

FM17 and FM23 are not the same game

 

Sure.

With all the limitations it might have, it's still football language though, the principles shouldn't differ.

In previous "guides" I was reading/taught football principles, while they might be true for real life execution, it has nothing to do with the game and what the match engine capable of.

i.e in fm17, I've seen many mods here suggesting "who gonna attack space" when someone posted a tactic of his own with mostly support duties and 3 players on defend duties, playing on control mentality and flexible

(later they might suggesting adding attacking duties to certain players to attack space).

Now I see this tactics for fm23 with only attacking duties and only 1 support duty, it just doesn't make sense because If I were to see someone posting in the forum such tactic seeking to get help, he might

be suggested to change their duties.

It makes other principles that was guided in the previous FM in the forum being irrelevant in term of football, and it feel they were implemented to manipulate the m.e.

 

 

P.S. I know that control mentality is positive, and defensive mentality is a negative mentality, however, with all attack duties, everyone bomb forward, playing direct football, no enough support duties to "recycle possession".

 

edit:

The point is, it's misleading, leads to confusion and the community deserve a better guide made by SI for ppl to have a better understaing of the game.

with all due respect, none of us customers are Mourinho, Sarri.... and even if they were the game has obligation to how much it can stimulate real life.

its unfair for SI to expect ppl to read so much and after a while to change the M.E in a way that the old principles I've read is not relevant.

 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Hailie

[Ricobran]

6 hours ago, Rashidi said:

You haven't really explained how you want to play defensively apart from posting a tactic.

When two teams take to the pitch to play football, the goal is to win matches. Having a solid defensive structure in place to achieve that goal is just one part of the process. Some teams may only seek to park the bus and aren't interested in going for the winning goal, and other teams might be looking to play a defensive style but with the option to strike on the counter to score a goal.

Defensive systems share common principles
Cover, Control and Balance
Pressure
Compactness

Cover - The relative distances between players that allow them to control space. The midfield will block wide passes and force players into a strong defensive middle (for example).  More than one player will offer defensive help. A player can put an opposition team player under pressure, and in doing so, his area of responsibility is covered by someone else.  To achieve this there has to be a structural balance to the system. For example, in a 532, while wingbacks may be responsible for protecting the flanks, you need adequate cover and balance, so you also need the centre mids in wider areas to support them by doing the initial press/

Pressure - Its the role of the first defender ( any role on the pitch) who happens to be the player closest to the ball. The goal is to deny them time, delay their progression and allow your team to get into position to prevent them from progressing the attack.

Compactness - This refers to the depth of your system. Arrigo Saachi played a style which was compact. The distance between the strikers and the defenders was no more than  25 yards. This compactness makes it hard for teams to find space between the lines. A defensive system needs to deny space between the lines forcing the ball elsewhere.

Teams can either sit back park the bus and hope or use the defensive structure to allow them to win the ball back and launch counters. So how do you want your defensive system to play?

ACHIEVING THIS ON FM
On football manager you can play defensive football on any mentality, naturally the lower mentalities are easier, I play defensive football on positive mentality too. Here we need to understand what mentality means and does in the game.

Mentality modulates behaviour on FM, it affects risk. This in turn affects decision making and is the underlying driver for 5 team instructions. On lower mentalities your players will not try too many risky things, however there are different roles and duties in the game. Using an attacking role like the wingback on an attacking duty will still see that role try and get up the pitch to take part in attacking transitions. 

Say you set up a tactic like yours

 

In this tactic, you aren't defensively solid. Your wingbacks need to deal with all the  threats, they are exposed to 2v1 situations if the opposition plays a 424, 442, 433. This requires the HBs to help but they are too deep. IN other words your system is allowing the opposition up the pitch unimpeded, by the time you need to defend its already too late, you have ceded the pitch to the opponents.

You are also forcing the opponents to the most vulnerable area on the pitch. By forcing them outside you are directing them to the one area where you have the least number of players to protect. Imagine you had to defend against an army, you basically sited the bulk of your army in one area and you told the opposing forces to attack you down the weakest flank. Its not defensive football, its harakiri.

You have also set up a much higher defensive line which pushes your team higher up the pitch which does nothing to help your flanks.

With that much lower line of engagement you are sitting super deep which makes matters worse.

With your team sitting so deep you have also told them to play out of defence, while this is not a bad instruction, you have few outlets to bring the ball out without you losing it in transition.

HOW DO YOU FIX IT?
1. Define where you want to win the ball - COVER AND BALANCE
2. Set up in transition instructions correctly for  PRESSURE AND COMPACTNESS

EXAMPLE


Take a look at this example, here I have set up a system that is played on very defensive mentality, my flanks have coverage, I have two roles either side that support defending the flanks. My WCBs are on defend duty. 
I can also use hit early crosses to launch attacks from deeper areas without waiting for my backs to get to the byeline. I am also using a TM(S) so that we can have simpler transitions like balls over the top.

This is fairly aggressive still, but it uses the defensive principles of compactness.

Now lets see another one which is basically my doorbolt system.

Uses the same principles, but here I value compactness, my players don't press like crazy, I want them to hold their position, we sit in a low block, tackle hard and look for the quick out.

Finally.
|

A more flashy system, here I know how the IWBs are going to behave, they wont sit and control the DM space, instead they will be narrower in attack so they should be moving into the channels. I use this system on defensive or very defensive mentalities. When defending we drop into a 7, but when we win the ball the higher defensive line and the attacking duties allows me to get the ball up quick. Here the two flank roles are putting pressure on their wingbacks all the time.

There are plenty of ways to design solid defensive systems on football manager, you just need to have a clear idea of how you want to defend and then you want to use the ball when you have it. Hope this gives you some ideas. I also have to add that @GIMNprovided some good insights too. Very defensive, defensive are just mentalities you can play defensive football on any mentality. On lower mentalities the only real difference is that players are more circumspect with the use of the ball and you will also see attacking roles and duties more likely to come back and help you defend,

Thanks, this is really helpful. How would you apply this to a 4-3-3 formation?

[CARRERA]

@HailieThere is no right or wrong for how & how many duties you assign. Its always dependend on what you are trying to achieve. The distribution of duties just sets the frame of your teams structure and alters your approach of being more attacking or more defensive.
The general principles of football did and do still apply (at least to some extend). And of course attacking space is important if you are looking to bring players into scoring / advantageous position. However, there are also support duty roles who can take that responsibility (most likely those who get forward more often). And there are also attack duty players who cant take on that responsibility as good as others, like the DLFa or T
 

Quote

From SI Manual:
Your distribution of duties determines whether you move up or down the scale to more attacking or defensive football, and whether you apply more fluid or more rigid approaches.

 

Edited December 27, 2022 by CARRERA

[coach vahid]

il y a 18 minutes, Hailie a dit :

Sure.

With all the limitations it might have, it's still football language though, the principles shouldn't differ.

In previous "guides" I was reading/taught football principles, while they might be true for real life execution, it has nothing to do with the game and what the match engine capable of.

i.e in fm17, I've seen many mods here suggesting "who gonna attack space" when someone posted a tactic of his own with mostly support duties and 3 players on defend duties, playing on control mentality and flexible

(later they might suggesting adding attacking duties to certain players to attack space).

Now I see this tactics for fm23 with only attacking duties and only 1 support duty, it just doesn't make sense because If I were to see someone posting in the forum such tactic seeking to get help, he might

be suggested to change their duties.

It makes other principles that was guided in the previous FM in the forum being irrelevant in term of football, and it feel they were implemented to manipulate the m.e.

 

 

P.S. I know that control mentality is positive, and defensive mentality is a negative mentality, however, with all attack duties, everyone bomb forward, playing direct football, no enough support duties to "recycle possession".

 

You know what... Stop all this.

When confusion meets frustration it doesn't very good. There's people to explain you how it work and other people too but with different answers and visions.

What you want to see in the football and how it can be implent in this game. That's all. Maye you will lose because the tactic or the players. Or both...

But it's the most important thing, if you fed up, stop.

 

[Hailie]

28 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

@HailieThere is no right or wrong for how & how many duties you assign.

I understand that, but this was the exact opposite from what I've encounter.

another example: when having a tactic with too many attack duties which will lead to long shots due to opposition parking the bus, and it will end up with you having 23 shots vs the A.I with 2 shots from long range, and scores one from 35m and wins 1-0( this does happen in real life, but not almost every game).

This  makes me understand that it's a tactical issue rather than luck (the way the engine translate it)

Assuming I'm a new player with a very little football knowledge, how am I able to understand what is wrong without an official manual?

53 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

From SI Manual:
Your distribution of duties determines whether you move up or down the scale to more attacking or defensive football, and whether you apply more fluid or more rigid approaches.

May I ask please, where did you get this from?

Is it relevant to FM17?

21 minutes ago, coach vahid said:

You know what... Stop all this.

When confusion meets frustration it doesn't very good. There's people to explain you how it work and other people too but with different answers and visions.

What you want to see in the football and how it can be implent in this game. That's all. Maye you will lose because the tactic or the players. Or both...

But it's the most important thing, if you fed up, stop.

 

if you understood that from my post, I'm sorry but this was never my intention.

I was digging a lot in the forum & the community here is amazing.

My complain is for SI manual guide which is non-existence.

how someone with very little knowledge of football who is passion about the simulation games will be able to not getting frustrated when there's no manual and official guides that helps to follow.

The current post I read sometimes contradict themselves, i.e I used to read a wingback is not recommended to play with a winger on the same side, because they occupy the same space (or something like that),

but then I see so many tactics using wingback and wingers on the same side that are being recommended by the people claiming that it's not recommended.

A customer needs to understand of why he's failing even thought he have the right players for the right roles and a tactics which makes sense, but repeatedly in being beaten in matches in an unconvincing way regardless if any changes made.

I'm not reffering to players who plays the game in a certain way i.e choosing the best & reaches clubs in the game & buying the best players in game, having the best players every tactic would work because of the quality of the players.

But I'm reffering to ppl who play's the game on a different way.

 

[Rashidi]

1 hour ago, Hailie said:

know that control mentality is positive, and defensive mentality is a negative mentality,

That statement tells me your starting assumptions are all wrong. There is no positive or negative mentality. Mentality is just about risk and how your team applies itself during games. You can get very attacking tactics on very defensive mentality, too. 

What's more important is how you distribute your roles and duties. Your line of engagement in essence defines where your team starts pressing. I can easily create a defensive tactic played on positive mentality and another on very defensive mentality. People need to stop thinking mentality drives chances. Some go as far as thinking that in order to create more chances you need to be on attacking mentality, when all you really need is a balanced tactic that gives you good goal creating chances. 

Tempo is increased on higher mentalities. When you increase mentality, you affect a lot of things slightly. So, when tempo goes up, you are in essence telling your players to do everything a bit faster. This includes deciding when to make a run, pass, or even take a shot. On higher tempos you are more likely to see someone take the first chance he sees at goal. That explains why so many people have a high shot count from outside the area.

For me defensive football isn't just the mentality, you start with...

Defensive line - sets how far your backline will start dropping to. The higher the Dl the better placed your backline is to support midfield, but they could be further away from goal. Therefore, they need to run back a lot. If it's a slow defence that doesn't help.
LOE - The block, basically where do your strikers begin their press, this affects everyone else too. The moment the strikers press, the rest could be closing down channels
Together the two create your defensive block. Within that block your players react based on roles, duties, your TIs and pressing intensity. So, if you press at maximum intensity you could see wolf pack closing down, where more than 1 player hounds a ball carrier. Set it to less than middle and you could see more disciplined holding of position, where players only press at the right time.

So your pressing intensity works within that block. 

Together that defines how I plan to defend. And that is the first part of creating a compact system. IF i wanted a very defensive block that defends from the midway line and doesn't want the opposition to get too close to my goal, I would play a mid block. If I want my backline to support the midfield but not over-commit then I would play with a standard defensive line. If I want the block to be compressed and I wanted us to 2v1 any ball carrier then I could push my defensive line higher and set a more aggressive pressing intensity.

Throughout this I am never bothered with mentality, in fact, you are best served setting it to Balanced when you are not sure. Next step define your spine, players that are going to support defence and attack. This group is going to work their socks off so what kind of roles and duties do you want? Finally.  who are the ANCHORs in your system? These players stay anchored allowing play to revolve around them. These could be roles that hold position or duties that defend.

The goal is to create a balanced system where you have a spine that supports play, a unit that defends (I typically only have 2 to 3 in most defensive systems) And finally how do you score goals. To answer this question you need to know your formation. 

A 433 can be a good defensive system and it can also be a terrible one. If you don't transition properly you could end up leaving your flanks exposed. If I wanted to create a defensive one, then I would choose roles like FBs in a 433 so they dont bomb  forward too much, giving me a 5 at the back. Then I soak and hit with 3 attack duties in the final third. However, if I had 2 wingbacks on attack duty in my 433 then whenever i attacked, i had better score, cos if i lose the ball in the midfield transition phase, my flanks are vulnerable as those two wingbacks could be out of position.

And this is where mentality comes in, it will define your risk appetite. If you want your players to make sure they play the right pass, then go to defensive mentality. Choose roles and duties that allow you to launch quick counters from deep, like a BPD, NCD, DLP and up front you could use a PF or an AF. An AF is a great option, because players will treat him like a focal point of attacks. A good role if you are sitting deep for the majority of the game. Once again, different roles give you different dynamics. No one role is right or wrong, it depends on what you are trying to achieve with the players you have at your disposal.

[CARRERA]

43 minutes ago, Hailie said:

I understand that, but this was the exact opposite from what I've encounter.

another example: when having a tactic with too many attack duties which will lead to long shots due to opposition parking the bus, and it will end up with you having 23 shots vs the A.I with 2 shots from long range, and scores one from 35m and wins 1-0( this does happen in real life, but not almost every game).

This  makes me understand that it's a tactical issue rather than luck (the way the engine translate it)

You always have to concider, that almost every save is unique in terms of results and how different things play out, as it also depends on how the AI acts tactically and what players are to your disposal. Thats why its hard to actually copy tactics from a forum. What you can expect from the forum is some general advice or a good starting point for you to move on from.

43 minutes ago, Hailie said:

Assuming I'm a new player with a very little football knowledge, how am I able to understand what is wrong without an official manual?

As dumb as it sounds, properbly by trial and error. SI doesn't really do (or doesn't want to do) a great job at explaining footballing principles and game mechanics.

43 minutes ago, Hailie said:

May I ask please, where did you get this from?

Is it relevant to FM17?

Unfortunately the manual for FM 17 is not available anymore. And as someone already mentioned, FM17 was very different from FM23.  Not by its principles, but how they were technically implemented. However, having more players on an attack duty did always lead to an more attacking approach.

 

Edited December 27, 2022 by CARRERA

[Ricobran]

On 27/12/2022 at 06:32, Rashidi said:

You haven't really explained how you want to play defensively apart from posting a tactic.

When two teams take to the pitch to play football, the goal is to win matches. Having a solid defensive structure in place to achieve that goal is just one part of the process. Some teams may only seek to park the bus and aren't interested in going for the winning goal, and other teams might be looking to play a defensive style but with the option to strike on the counter to score a goal.

Defensive systems share common principles
Cover, Control and Balance
Pressure
Compactness

Cover - The relative distances between players that allow them to control space. The midfield will block wide passes and force players into a strong defensive middle (for example).  More than one player will offer defensive help. A player can put an opposition team player under pressure, and in doing so, his area of responsibility is covered by someone else.  To achieve this there has to be a structural balance to the system. For example, in a 532, while wingbacks may be responsible for protecting the flanks, you need adequate cover and balance, so you also need the centre mids in wider areas to support them by doing the initial press/

Pressure - Its the role of the first defender ( any role on the pitch) who happens to be the player closest to the ball. The goal is to deny them time, delay their progression and allow your team to get into position to prevent them from progressing the attack.

Compactness - This refers to the depth of your system. Arrigo Saachi played a style which was compact. The distance between the strikers and the defenders was no more than  25 yards. This compactness makes it hard for teams to find space between the lines. A defensive system needs to deny space between the lines forcing the ball elsewhere.

Teams can either sit back park the bus and hope or use the defensive structure to allow them to win the ball back and launch counters. So how do you want your defensive system to play?

ACHIEVING THIS ON FM
On football manager you can play defensive football on any mentality, naturally the lower mentalities are easier, I play defensive football on positive mentality too. Here we need to understand what mentality means and does in the game.

Mentality modulates behaviour on FM, it affects risk. This in turn affects decision making and is the underlying driver for 5 team instructions. On lower mentalities your players will not try too many risky things, however there are different roles and duties in the game. Using an attacking role like the wingback on an attacking duty will still see that role try and get up the pitch to take part in attacking transitions. 

Say you set up a tactic like yours

 

In this tactic, you aren't defensively solid. Your wingbacks need to deal with all the  threats, they are exposed to 2v1 situations if the opposition plays a 424, 442, 433. This requires the HBs to help but they are too deep. IN other words your system is allowing the opposition up the pitch unimpeded, by the time you need to defend its already too late, you have ceded the pitch to the opponents.

You are also forcing the opponents to the most vulnerable area on the pitch. By forcing them outside you are directing them to the one area where you have the least number of players to protect. Imagine you had to defend against an army, you basically sited the bulk of your army in one area and you told the opposing forces to attack you down the weakest flank. Its not defensive football, its harakiri.

You have also set up a much higher defensive line which pushes your team higher up the pitch which does nothing to help your flanks.

With that much lower line of engagement you are sitting super deep which makes matters worse.

With your team sitting so deep you have also told them to play out of defence, while this is not a bad instruction, you have few outlets to bring the ball out without you losing it in transition.

HOW DO YOU FIX IT?
1. Define where you want to win the ball - COVER AND BALANCE
2. Set up in transition instructions correctly for  PRESSURE AND COMPACTNESS

EXAMPLE


Take a look at this example, here I have set up a system that is played on very defensive mentality, my flanks have coverage, I have two roles either side that support defending the flanks. My WCBs are on defend duty. 
I can also use hit early crosses to launch attacks from deeper areas without waiting for my backs to get to the byeline. I am also using a TM(S) so that we can have simpler transitions like balls over the top.

This is fairly aggressive still, but it uses the defensive principles of compactness.

Now lets see another one which is basically my doorbolt system.

Uses the same principles, but here I value compactness, my players don't press like crazy, I want them to hold their position, we sit in a low block, tackle hard and look for the quick out.

Finally.
|

A more flashy system, here I know how the IWBs are going to behave, they wont sit and control the DM space, instead they will be narrower in attack so they should be moving into the channels. I use this system on defensive or very defensive mentalities. When defending we drop into a 7, but when we win the ball the higher defensive line and the attacking duties allows me to get the ball up quick. Here the two flank roles are putting pressure on their wingbacks all the time.

There are plenty of ways to design solid defensive systems on football manager, you just need to have a clear idea of how you want to defend and then you want to use the ball when you have it. Hope this gives you some ideas. I also have to add that @GIMNprovided some good insights too. Very defensive, defensive are just mentalities you can play defensive football on any mentality. On lower mentalities the only real difference is that players are more circumspect with the use of the ball and you will also see attacking roles and duties more likely to come back and help you defend,

I’ve just tried using some of your advice. Playing as Spurs at home to Chelsea. I was warned about Kaverts who was playing as AML. So I had Hojbjerg covering that area. I wasn’t sure what the best role was to give him, so I went for Carrilero to hopefully block off the right side. Early on in the game I noticed Kovacic was looking dangerous on the ball, so I had Son marking him. After 82 minutes the game was still 0-0. Son and Hojbjerg were both tired, so I replaced them with my new signings Leonardo, and Otavio. On the 88th minute Bentancur won the ball in midfield, played it inside to Otavio who played a through ball to Leonardo who raced through and slotted coolie past Mendy. Que double fist pump. We held on for the win. Chelsea finished with only 2 shots on target. Sterling, Kaverts and Mount rated 6.2. Chelsea’s XG 0.44. Very happy!

[Englishhammer]

On 23/12/2022 at 14:43, vrig said:

I've just finished season one with Brighton playing a low block in every match, 442 most of the time, with my 'Tactical Style' down as Park the Bus according to the game.

Finished 4th with the 3rd best defense in the league behind the usual suspects, so it's definitely possible to overachieve with it.

I don't doubt it might have been an easier season if I hadn't set myself the challenge of playing defensively, because setting up a high press is just ridiculously easy most of the time, but I can't agree that there's only one way to win, at all.

I understand if you don’t want to share it but I love seeing the 442 ones each season. 

[BrunoG39]

The art of being defensive is first being 1-0 up.  

Comment who said that.... 

Anyone that's playing this game, making a tactic that tries to be defensive is going to be punished.

Cleon's Art of Counter Attacking LOL!

Cleon's stuff has been proven screenshot stuff to promote web/magazine ventures. 

You have to be attacking in your tactical mindset at whatever level, and whatever team your playing.

The AI want to beat you, you have to continually be attacking to AI. If you play defensive in this game, you'll get sacked. GAME OVER.

Edited January 2, 2023 by BrunoG39

[BrunoG39]

Learn how to play football with an attacking team whilst solid at the back. 

If you can't score goals, or stop goals going in - don't move from Balanced - remove instructions.

[phnompenhandy]

On 10/12/2022 at 20:36, nb9 said:

Has anybody managed to get a defensive / solid tactic to actually work on this FM?

Yes, there are a few detailed threads on it on this forum

[phnompenhandy]

SFraser was my favourite poster when I started. He passed away a long time ago.

[santy001]

There's a few posts in here directing abuse at individuals which is wholly unacceptable. If people have thoughts on how things ought to be conducted for the best of the community, quite frankly embodying and being a paragon of those values would be the best starting point. 

[Ricobran]

Does anyone know how to stop the opposition playing balls over the top of my defence? I have pressing set to high, but it’s still happening. Even donkey CBs are playing Pirlo-esque passes over the top from 40 yards. I have tried playing all kind of defensive and engagement lines, step up more, drop off more. I’ve set my CBs to close down less and have tried using a covering defender. I’ve had some joy, but still not happy with how often it’s happening. 

[crusadertsar]

23 minutes ago, Ricobran said:

Does anyone know how to stop the opposition playing balls over the top of my defence? I have pressing set to high, but it’s still happening. Even donkey CBs are playing Pirlo-esque passes over the top from 40 yards. I have tried playing all kind of defensive and engagement lines, step up more, drop off more. I’ve set my CBs to close down less and have tried using a covering defender. I’ve had some joy, but still not happy with how often it’s happening. 

If you are always pressing them high with a high defensive line, where do you think they will send the balls? Just think about it. 

[Ricobran]

1 minute ago, crusadertsar said:

If you are always pressing them high with a high defensive line, where do you think they will send the balls? Just think about it. 

Did you actually read my whole comment? 

[crusadertsar]

3 minutes ago, Ricobran said:

Did you actually read my whole comment? 

Yes but it sounded to me as if you kept high pressing in all attempts. Did you change the pressing to low block while adjusting the defensive line? They work in tandem. You cannot press high while dropping your CBs back. There will be a huge gap that AI will exploit. The best way to reduce balls over the top is to not press high at all. It is a high risk high reward strategy so getting caught with through balls is part of the deal.

Edited January 4, 2023 by crusadertsar

[Ricobran]

Just now, crusadertsar said:

Yes but did you change the pressing to low block while adjusting the defensive line? They work in tandem. You cannot press high while dropping your CBs back. There will be a huge gap that AI will exploit. The best way to reduce balls over the top is to not to press high. It is a high risk high reward strategy so getting caught with through balls is part of the deal.

I’ve basically said I’ve tried everything. Sorry I didn’t mention closing down less. 

[crusadertsar]

1 minute ago, Ricobran said:

I’ve basically said I’ve tried everything. Sorry I didn’t mention closing down less. 

No worries. In that case I would look to get better defenders. Look for players who are quicker on their feet and most importantly with better mental attributes such as concentration, anticipation and composure. Jumping Reach helps too.

Edited January 4, 2023 by crusadertsar

[Domoboy23]

Probably the first time in the last few years I've been able to make a tactic with a low block and minimal pressing set to frustrate the opposition and grind out point/s and have it work. It's beautiful to watch