FM23: The Art of Possession Football

[Cleon]

This is taken from my website https://www.viewfromthetouchline.com/

 

FM23: The Art of Possession - Quite some time ago I did a very popular article about possession football named The Art of Possession Football. It’s a bit outdated now so I thought I’d rewrite it for Football Manager 2023. If you want to look at the old article it can be found here;

https://www.viewfromthetouchline.com/2022/09/04/the-art-of-possession-football

FM23: The Art of Possession - So why rewrite the guide?

Well, there are a few reasons really. One is people keep asking me to update it as the game has changed in the years since writing the first one. Secondly, I always wish I’d done more with the original article. Thirdly, I’m waiting for a fix for my long-term save that hopefully arrives in a patch sooner rather than later. So while I had some spare time and was unable to play, I’d revisit some old stuff.

While the game has changed, the principles for possession football are the exact same, which means that everything written in the first article still applies now. So rather than repeat those principles here, you can just read the first article above to learn more about them.

So my aim this time around is to be more complete and show how possession football changes with the roles and duties you use. I also wanted to show that you can play possession football (or any type of football for that matter) at any level. That’s why I’m playing as Boldklubben AB Tårnby in the Danish 4th tier.

They are predicted to finish 11th out of 12th in the league. The board and the fans expect us to lose most games and attempt to avoid relegation. The Danish leagues don’t go any lower than where I’m starting without an edited database either. So it’s quite a challenge.

FM23: The Art of Possession The Tactic

If you’ve been following us on Twitter and Instagram, you’ll have seen that for a bit of fun we have been guessing how teams at the World Cup would play. So before the teams have been announced, we’ve been posting our tactical lineups. You can find the thread here;

We did them for every team for the first round of games. They are just a bit of fun and we know teams might have set up differently once the games kicked off. But still, they provide a good base to build from. 

So that is what I’ve done, I will be using one of the tactics that I posted as the base. The Spanish tactic.

FM23: The Art of Possession  New Information

Today I learned that how possession works in Football Manager 2023 has been reworked compared to the previous version. But this doesn’t seem to have been communicated by SI and was found out by listening to a third-party podcast with someone from the SI QA team. 

They’ve added a new metric called ball share which is how possession worked in previous games and is basically how much time the team has on the ball. The actual possession metric is now calculated by how many passes the team did and completed. 

This is a massive change and the new metric is hidden away and isn’t shown by default, you have to customise the stats and data you have shown during a game, to see it. So be sure to check this out for those who didn’t know.

I think the change is a good change and is more in line with how real football works now. So I approve of the change. Just a shame it’s hidden away and that the ball share metric isn’t shown by default.

Defence

The idea here is that the fullbacks push on but not too advanced so they don’t become detached from the rest of the defence. This is why I went with fullbacks over wingbacks, as they’re more suited to this style of play and are less aggressive.

If the fullbacks push ahead too quickly and too far, then we lose potential passing options and passing lanes as they’ll not be as heavily involved in the build-up play. I don’t want the fullbacks to be isolated, I want them to be proper outlets.

Building out from the back like this with them slightly advanced means that if the ball does go wide to them, then the opposition will shift over. This then creates space for the central players and frees them up.

The back four has now become a back five. The halfback drops deep to form a back three with the two centre-backs. The two ball-playing defenders actually spread too wide but at the time of writing this, it is a known bug and scheduled to be fixed in a patch. But the halfback drops deep and can also help us progress the ball.

In some ways, the halfback is a playmaker. They help to progress the ball, can split defences open from deep, or can dribble with the ball at their feet. I think having a natural playmaker is better than having a playmaking role as nothing feels forced. That’s how I view the halfback.

With the halfback and two ball-playing defenders, I have three players at the back who can bring the ball forward. They also have the potential to launch defence-splitting passes or put us on the front foot from deep.

You might think this is counterproductive as I’m wanting to retain possession due to building a possession tactic. But the fact is, I still want to win games and they don’t do those types of balls constantly. For most parts, they’ll pass around and bring the ball up the field. Then if they see an opportunity they might try a defence-splitting pass.

However, it’s more likely they play in the midfield or wide players unless they spot a really good opportunity to launch a more risky type of ball.

Examples of Aggressive Passing from the Defenders

I’m classing the halfback as a defender here because he is, with the way he defends and helps us transition the ball.

Here the halfback is taking his time on the ball and waiting for players to get into position. I know this because I see him dwell on the ball and the commentary confirms it.

Knudsen is scanning around to see what his options are and has a lot of them, 4 in fact. Actually, 5 should he decide to the bring ball further forward himself, which he does at times. On this occasion, however, he chooses the furthest option top right.

Immediately this puts us on the front foot and has opened up a potential overload down the right side of the pitch. The mezzala can take his time to turn around and assess his options too, he doesn’t have to rush. When he turns around he can either lay it off to the inverted winger for a quick one-two. Or he can play in the fullback making a surging run down the right.

We are using the full width of the pitch. From here we can either directly attack with the overloads down here or retain possession should the players decide now is not the best time to attack. Either way, we have multiple choices here. 

While we are building a possession-based system, we also still want to attack and win games. The possession we have has to be meaningful and not possession for the sake of it. We still want to win games and take the game to the opponents.

This is another example but this time, this is much riskier.

I want to highlight this pass particularly as it demonstrates exactly how aggressive the ball-playing defenders can be at times. It is almost reckless. 

He has lots of time on the ball to bring it out of defence if he chooses and he also has three (red circles) immediate passing options. All of them present a different level of difficulty to pull off. We also have the yellow circled player, which would be the reckless option and the least likely to pull off.

Of course, that’s the option he chooses here. The ball-playing defender has been reworked on Football Manager 2023 and is much more aggressive with their passing and the positions they take up on the pitch. It’s not uncommon to see them attack deep inside the opposition half these days.

I wanted to highlight this move so you are aware of the changes and just how risky the role can be. If you use ball-playing defenders and want to create a possession system, keep an eye on this as at times, it might go against what you are creating. Especially if they give possession away cheaply like in my example.

Initially, he actually won the ball so the pass was successful but the player lost control of it once he’d won it. I guess if we look at the image above, there is another issue at play here too. Look at the defensive five then look at the attacking five. There are massive gaps between the two bands of players, which is a major issue. It means that if any long or risky pass like we saw above happens, then positionally, we don’t have the support to help him out.

Again this can go against a possession-based philosophy and be a way of giving possession away cheaply. I must admit, I don’t find this an issue myself as it doesn’t happen all the time. But for someone else, it could be an issue which is why I wanted to highlight it. In certain games, the issue can be worse than in others.

This shows the successful passes of my left-sided ball-playing defender. It looks fine on the surface but in this game, we were playing a much better side from a higher division. My side is a weak side for the league it’s in, let alone when playing higher-ranked opposition.

They pressed and hounded us and really gave us little time on the ball. This meant that the ball-playing defenders panicked more and began hitting it longer to beat the press. But it failed spectacularly.

22 unsuccessful passes here and each one is a risky pass where the player is looking to pass through the lines to put us on the front foot. It’s great when it comes off but when it doesn’t like this, you should likely change the role.

You might find yourself options to use a standard centre-back or even a no-nonsense centre-back. All of the roles can be suited for this type of player and all of them will play the role slightly differently to each other. Find the best fit for you and what you are needing.

As I’ve already mentioned, 90% of the time it isn’t an issue. But like everything else, there will be times during your season when it doesn’t work as you like or becomes a hindrance. Make sure you are paying attention to make sure it’s only a one-off and not a regular thing.

When it does go right though, it can be a thing of beauty. This is the right-sided ball-playing defender picking up an assist. Here he hit a proper defence-splitting pass into space for the mezzala to run onto.

The mezzala runs onto the ball and slot’s it home. This game was a tight affair too and the only game I scored in this game. So while the ball-playing defenders can be very aggressive with their passing, it can be very beneficial at times. It comes back to the age-old risk vs reward and if you believe the reward outweighs the risk.

I’m actually a huge fan of the changes to the match engine this year, especially the ball-playing defender. They are now real tools to use against sides and can help break sides down or open them up, with passes like those highlighted above.

The Midfield and Attack

The idea here is that the inverted wingers on both sides, will cut inside and allow the full-backs to overlap them. This allows us to create central overloads with the on-rushing roaming playmaker and mezzala. If we can’t overload the central areas then it allows the full-backs to provide the width and frees up space for them.

You can customise the inverted wingers too, to give you all different kinds of various styles of play.

I’m just using both inverted wingers with the default settings. But if I wanted I could focus even more on central overloads if I wanted by asking them to sit narrower and even hold up the ball. If I made this change I’d likely go with more aggressive wingbacks over fullbacks too, to make most of the space that would be vacated out wide.

But I left them to default as I didn’t want to become too one-dimensional and try and force the narrowness too much. I want the formation to be very fluid, flexible and attack in various ways. While maintaining a high level of possession. If I allowed them to be more narrow then I’d likely have to rethink the roles of the central midfielders too.

The central two would have less space to play into due to how much more compact we’d become. This might see us retain the ball much better in the final third and make the numbers much greater. But we would be less varied in our play. Not that we don’t retain the ball well now, as we do. But more in the sense, we could be keeping too much of it and not doing much with the ball.

Whereas now I think the balance is much better. We still have width, runners from deep going forward into space and so on. But you could easily make the changes I mentioned above and still retain possession, just in a different way than how I retain possession. Neither is better than the other and it all depends on what you are wanting from your tactic. I just want to point out that you can achieve the same as me in many different ways.

I don’t want to jump too far ahead but this example is too good not to show.

In this game, I was playing a side possessed with speed, so I was slightly more cautious and asked the defensive line to drop off. This helps us with balls over the top and just adds a protective layer to the defensive line. I also instructed them to pass into space too, so the attacking players can run onto balls behind, rather than having the ball played to their feet. This is useful against sides who mark your players tightly or play a high line. I only made these changes for this specific match though.

One of the other changes was I used an advanced forward instead of a false nine. Again this was strategic because the opposition was using a defensive line and an aggressive press. The false nine in these kinds of games can become somewhat limited with what they do, due to them dropping deep initially.

As the defence is pushed up the false nine has less space to play in. What that means is that the space for the striker to play in is now behind the defensive line and not in front of it, like in lower defensive lines. To take advantage of that I use a striker role that stays high up the pitch and can push the defensive line back or feed off defence-splitting passes and is happy to keep running in behind them.

The main reason for this is I don’t want the centre to be too congested as that makes it hard for us to play our possession game and eliminates a lot of our running from midfield. Which is the DNA of our play style.

In the above screenshot, the goalkeeper regained possession of the ball and then plays it out instantly to the ball-playing defender. Now here you can see the space we created for ourselves by the defensive line dropping off when the opposition had possession of the ball. This has given us a lot of space and time for the roaming playmaker to utilise his skillset. 

It might look slightly disjointed and have too much space between players, especially in the midfield. But this is our own making by telling the defensive line to drop off. But it doesn’t matter much due to what the roaming playmaker role does. He drives forward with the ball and makes things happen. He also has options outwide with the full-backs providing the width

So the ball-playing defender receives the ball and then plays it to the roaming playmaker. Due to the opposition holding a high line, look at all the space the fullback has down the left because the inverted wingers and striker are occupying the defenders.

Also, do you notice the mezzala sitting higher than usual in the half-spaces? This is also a new change for Football Manager 23. The mezzala and central midfielders on attack duty now generally sit higher compared to past versions of the game. So don’t expect them to sit as deep as the roaming playmaker, deep-lying playmaker etc.

The roaming playmaker sees that we can attack down the wing and plays a ball out to the fullback.

As you can see, the roaming playmaker didn’t perhaps choose the ball we all thought he would and chose a much more difficult one to pull off. Well, I say difficult, I mean in length. The yellow box would have been the easiest option for a pass and would have played it straight to the full-backs feet. But wait a minute........remember we added pass into space. We are seeing this be played out here in this exact move.

We’ve got the numbers advantage here. So once the fullback gets the ball he plays it to the inverted winger who is acres and acres of space. He then plays it straight back down the wing for the fullback to run onto.

The inverted winger carries on his run and the fullback finds him again with the pass. But the inverted winger is in open space and unmarked and slots the ball home to make it 1-0.

I wanted to highlight this goal to show the variety in how we play. From our own goalkeeper to a goal in 5 passes. Every single one of them accurately into space for the player to run onto, rather than the ball played at their feet.

It also showcases the combination play that we build down this left-hand side too. The inverted winger and fullback linked up multiple times and both continued their runs. Allowing us to use the space that the move has created. If you look at the other players positioning too, you can see they’re all arriving in the box at different stages. At this point, the opposition's defensive line is nonexistent and all over the place.

But Cleon, this isn’t possession!!

Well it is, I still have to use the ball well and not just have possession for the sake of it. This is highlighting what we do with the ball. But let’s wrap the article up now with how we retain the ball rather than how we use it and show some stats.

This is what my average possession stats look like for the end of the first season. Not bad considering we were predicted to get relegated out of the playable leagues, meaning it would have been game over! We were predicted to finish 11th out of 12th, so to create this possession tactic and get these numbers is impressive. Remember I also play attributeless so I have no idea how good my players actually are or what their attributes/potential is. As star ratings are also removed.

Retaining the Ball

How we retain the ball and pass it about is actually simple, it’s all about space and movement.

The ball has progressed again from the ball-playing defender to the fullback. The inverted winger has started to run to create space and the roaming playmaker is also moving forward too. But should the pass not be on to any forward player, all players on this side are in close proximity to each other. Meaning they can easily retain the ball and someone will always be free and open for the pass, should they need it.

Here the inverted winger has received the ball and is now facing away from the goal. But the rest of the players are also advancing up the pitch too, giving him several passing outlets.  It’s vital that players move up and down the pitch together, passing and moving.

This is still the same move and you can see how far up the pitch we have progressed but as a team. Now though, the fullback has provided the overlap allowing the inverted winger to stay deeper to receive the ball. The inverted winger receives the ball but is pressed, so plays the safe option back to the ball-playing defender.

Suddenly we have the potential to bring more players into play now, as people have started running towards the goal and becoming a threat. A pass from the ball-playing defender to either the halfback or inverted winger and the entire pitch opens up. It doesn’t matter which side of the pitch we are on, the same thing happens.

The tactic posted at the start all works because of a few key factors;

• We move up the pitch together
• We move down the pitch together
• Pass and move
• Players going beyond those in possession

These aren’t all the key factors but these are vital for us and the core of it all. Our team instructions are what is allowing us to mainly play like this too. And then the player roles and duties used, give us added variety. That’s why we can go from being cautious and retaining possession like in the above screenshots and staying as a unit. To be able to score in 5 passes from the goalkeeper, as we showed a bit further up the article.

Playing a possession game doesn’t have to be all about short passing, you can also be very direct at times too. You can also be risky too like the ball-playing defenders are. It’s all about finding the right balance for everything and that’s what I’ve done above.

Hope you’ve enjoyed the article. Any questions, you can ask them below or on our socials.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Cleon

[Hovis Dexter]

A very interesting read I remember being inspired by your original article. One thing that does stand out to me is the high number of TIs that you are using in this new tactic. I remember that in your original "art of" series you used minimal TIs.

[Cleon]

4 minutes ago, Hovis Dexter said:

A very interesting read I remember being inspired by your original article. One thing that does stand out to me is the high number of TIs that you are using in this new tactic. I remember that in your original "art of" series you used minimal TIs.

The game works different now though and we have way more settings than back then. I used 13+ TI's in the original article too and we didn't really have settings back then to select the kind of block, pressing, or what to do out of possession. So it's basically the same . 9 of the ones I use above in this article are either used for dictating how to distribute the ball from the back or related to how we press the opposition and the type of block we use. It's still minimal when you break it down. Just looks bloated because the game has moved on from having to select a team shape that did all this stuff under the hood. Now we have settings to really shape it

[crusadertsar]

Just what I needed on my reading list for today! Thank you so much, mate 

[crusadertsar]

I'm just curious as to why you are not using a Sweeper Keeper? I thought that with a very high defensive line and aggressive high press, a Sweeper Keeper was pretty much required? Just as an extra assurance to deal with those pesky balls over the defense.

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by crusadertsar

[Cleon]

22 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Just what I needed on my reading list for today! Thank you so much, mate 

Cheers

16 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

I'm just curious as to why you are not using a Sweeper Keeper? I thought that with a very high defensive line and aggressive high press, a Sweeper Keeper was pretty much required? Just as an extra assurance to deal with those pesky balls over the defense.

 

I already have the halfback dropping back to help with them and I use two ball-playing defenders who play out from the back. I didn't see the need for a sweeper keeper. If someone is going to cause me issues or I see something happen in game, I'll ask the defensive line to drop off instead. Like I did in the article. You could use a SK if needed though. But for me, if I did, it would mean the defence/midfield had already failed. So I'd rather make them do their job correctly

Edited December 1, 2022 by Cleon

[crusadertsar]

10 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Cheers

I already have the halfback dropping back to help with them and I use two ball-playing defenders who play out from the back. I didn't see the need for a sweeper keeper. If someone is going to cause me issues or I see something happen in game, I'll ask the defensive line to drop off instead. Like I did in the article. You could use a SK if needed though. But for me, if I did, it would mean the defence/midfield had already failed. So I'd rather make them do their job correctly

Ahh! Makes perfect sense now that you explain it that way. I'm happy, because I don't have a natural sweeper keeper in a similar tactic I'm attempting. But plenty of skilled Halfbacks and BPDs. 

[Johnny Ace]

Fantastic write up!! 

I'm a big fan of Fullbacks in possession systems, like you say, they don't bomb on like a Wingback does and they don't stretch play like a WB does. Quite often they'll tuck inside which is great for keeping possession, so they're a stable for me

 

[Cleon]

Just now, Johnny Ace said:

Fantastic write up!! 

I'm a big fan of Fullbacks in possession systems, like you say, they don't bomb on like a Wingback does and they don't stretch play like a WB does. Quite often they'll tuck inside which is great for keeping possession, so they're a stable for me

 

Thanks Johnny, appreciate that

I think fullbacks in general are quite an underrated role and get left behind for a WB's a lot of time. But I just love how they overlap more naturally and are more "link" players than anything. They make for better combination play imo

When I get the time, I actually want to add a second part to this and show how it changes the type of possession we have when I change roles around. And the fullback to a WB is one of the writeups I planned. 

[Johnny Ace]

4 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Thanks Johnny, appreciate that

You're welcome 

6 minutes ago, Cleon said:

I think fullbacks in general are quite an underrated role and get left behind for a WB's a lot of time. But I just love how they overlap more naturally and are more "link" players than anything. They make for better combination play imo

Absolutely, Wingbacks are much more favoured in general and often Pep inspired possession tactics feature IWBs but the humble Fullback is a great little role and all rounder

 

7 minutes ago, Cleon said:

When I get the time, I actually want to add a second part to this and show how it changes the type of possession we have when I change roles around. And the fullback to a WB is one of the writeups I planned. 

Looking forward to it! Might help get a few Fullback converts 

[herne79]

4 hours ago, Cleon said:

Today I learned that how possession works in Football Manager 2023 has been reworked compared to the previous version. But this doesn’t seem to have been communicated by SI and was found out by listening to a third-party podcast with someone from the SI QA team. 

They’ve added a new metric called ball share which is how possession worked in previous games and is basically how much time the team has on the ball. The actual possession metric is now calculated by how many passes the team did and completed. 

This is a massive change and the new metric is hidden away and isn’t shown by default, you have to customise the stats and data you have shown during a game, to see it. So be sure to check this out for those who didn’t know.

I think the change is a good change and is more in line with how real football works now. So I approve of the change. Just a shame it’s hidden away and that the ball share metric isn’t shown by default.

A good change to better reflect reality.  Just a bit odd it wasn’t communicated and seems to be hidden away.

Anyway, the original article is probably the single most impactful article I ever read here and got the most from.  Great to see it updated 👌.

Interesting to see the RPM role being used, a somewhat under appreciated role I think but useful for helping bring the ball out of defence and driving forward.  And a quick mention of the Half Back - a role I’ve always thoroughly detested - you’re using that purely from a replication perspective or primarily to give you the passing options and movement you’re looking for?  (Knowing you I guess primarily the latter but a probably a bit of both).  Personally I’ll use anything but an HB so perhaps I should put my biases to one side and revisit the role (yikes ).

[Cleon]

3 minutes ago, herne79 said:

A good change to better reflect reality.  Just a bit odd it wasn’t communicated and seems to be hidden away.

Anyway, the original article is probably the single most impactful article I ever read here and got the most from.  Great to see it updated 👌.

Interesting to see the RPM role being used, a somewhat under appreciated role I think but useful for helping bring the ball out of defence and driving forward.  And a quick mention of the Half Back - a role I’ve always thoroughly detested - you’re using that purely from a replication perspective or primarily to give you the passing options and movement you’re looking for?  (Knowing you I guess primarily the latter but a probably a bit of both).  Personally I’ll use anything but an HB so perhaps I should put my biases to one side and revisit the role (yikes ).

Aye the change is really good. As when I did the original thread I think they said it was too hard to change it and was likely unable to be done. So it's great to see the match engine evolving.

The Art of Series is probably my 2nd favourite thing I've done behind the Ajax stuff. Which ironically I've also started to rewrite 

I totally forgot your hate towards the HB role, so glad I used it now . The reason for using it was purely down to me wanting a natural playmaker without using a playmaker role and forcing the issue ever so slightly. So opted for the HB as I think they're fantastic at retaining and recycling possession. Especially if you play a creative player there. Something which I don't know if I have or haven't as I'm attributeless and using fake players. So it's all a mystery. But non the less, with the changes to how pivots work on FM23, I think the role has become better indirectly due to that. So he also steps up into midfield too with his ball at his feet at times. So it fitted what I wanted. But 100% my choice was driven by what I class as it being a natural playmaker.

I also like the defensive side of things and allows us to easily shift into a back 5 or back 3. It gives us better passing lanes and able to use the entire of the pitch when playing out from the back. It allows us to be progressive and move as a unit and no matter what, we always have a free player in the back line open for the pass.

[herne79]

36 minutes ago, Cleon said:

I totally forgot your hate towards the HB role, so glad I used it now .

Git .

I'm on the edge of memory here but I have a feeling that once upon a time the HB was (incorrectly) flagged as a playmaker role, although possibly only for AI teams?  That role's been so bugged over the years you lose track but once upon a time I'm sure I saw someone from SI say it had now been (correctly) unflagged.  But yeh, especially given who has played the role irl, it's always been a kind of pseudo-playmaker.

Something to experiment with perhaps.  Who knows, I may actually come to like it .

Anyway back on topic, I can see how these principles could play out with other formations.  I can imagine the SV role being particularly deadly.

[Sammie B]

5 hours ago, Cleon said:

In this game, I was playing a side possessed with speed, so I was slightly more cautious and asked the defensive line to drop off

Great read! When you say drop off do you mean dropping the defensive line back 1 notch or using the drop off more instruction?

[Cleon]

41 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Git .

I'm on the edge of memory here but I have a feeling that once upon a time the HB was (incorrectly) flagged as a playmaker role, although possibly only for AI teams?  That role's been so bugged over the years you lose track but once upon a time I'm sure I saw someone from SI say it had now been (correctly) unflagged.  But yeh, especially given who has played the role irl, it's always been a kind of pseudo-playmaker.

Something to experiment with perhaps.  Who knows, I may actually come to like it .

Anyway back on topic, I can see how these principles could play out with other formations.  I can imagine the SV role being particularly deadly.

Don't let anyone ever tell you that your memory goes as you get older, as you are correct 

I purposely didn't use a SV as that is what I used heavily with the Brazilian Box formation I used last year and included in the book. Tried to mix it up a little. As there's some roles on the game and pairings that I'd always use. An AP support and a Mez on attack, for me is the best combo on the game.

39 minutes ago, Sammie B said:

Great read! When you say drop off do you mean dropping the defensive line back 1 notch or using the drop off more instruction?

The drop off more instruction.

[typ2603]

1 hour ago, Cleon said:

Don't let anyone ever tell you that your memory goes as you get older, as you are correct 

I purposely didn't use a SV as that is what I used heavily with the Brazilian Box formation I used last year and included in the book. Tried to mix it up a little. As there's some roles on the game and pairings that I'd always use. An AP support and a Mez on attack, for me is the best combo on the game.

The drop off more instruction.

If an AP support and Mez on attack is the best combo on the game, what is the reasoning behind using a RPM? Is it because you want someone dropping in a bit and driving forward versus an AP support which may be more static, higher up the pitch? 

[Cleon]

Just now, typ2603 said:

If an AP support and Mez on attack is the best combo on the game, what is the reasoning behind using a RPM? Is it because you want someone dropping in a bit and driving forward versus an AP support which may be more static, higher up the pitch? 

I answered it in the same post you quoted. I mixed it up and didn't want to use roles/combinations that I've already written about/used

AP isn't static either and drops deep and drives forward just like the RPM does. The only real difference between the two roles is how they use the pitch. But both roles are very mobile.

[typ2603]

4 minutes ago, Cleon said:

I answered it in the same post you quoted. I mixed it up and didn't want to use roles/combinations that I've already written about/used

AP isn't static either and drops deep and drives forward just like the RPM does. The only real difference between the two roles is how they use the pitch. But both roles are very mobile.

Ah fair, nice one pal. Misconception on my part re AP, time to watch a few games between the two!

[Sanders81]

hi,are these possession tactics available anywhere ? 

[Cleon]

5 minutes ago, Sanders81 said:

hi,are these possession tactics available anywhere ? 

All the info is in the post, what more do you need? 

[Sanders81]

to be fair mate even with the info im still terrible at creating tactics , can get possession to work but struggling to win games using man city so iv no chance with a lower level team.

 

 

[sovy666]

3 ore fa, Cleon ha scritto:

The drop off more instruction.

For those still on FM22, how can we adapt without this TI? Maybe a change of mentality to Standard?

[Cleon]

22 minutes ago, sovy666 said:

For those still on FM22, how can we adapt without this TI? Maybe a change of mentality to Standard?

I wouldn’t change if I was on FM22, I’d enable the off side trap and play risky. As you have the offside trap on 22, we don’t in 23. That’s all these settings are really.

But it’s like anything really, just do what suits you. If you wanted you could alter the mentality but then changes the base do everything. So has more of an impact. You could also just drop the defensive line too. Which is probably the simpler option imo 

[sovy666]

6 minuti fa, Cleon ha scritto:

I wouldn’t change if I was on FM22, I’d enable the off side trap and play risky. As you have the offside trap on 22, we don’t in 23. That’s all these settings are really.

But it’s like anything really, just do what suits you. If you wanted you could alter the mentality but then changes the base do everything. So has more of an impact. You could also just drop the defensive line too. Which is probably the simpler option imo 

Yeah by changing the mentality I would also modify other instructions both in possession and out of. It was to understand how to adapt the tactic when playing against some very direct teams that regularly pierce the much higher defensive line like Lazio with Immobile for example, in fact I was just thinking about him when I asked you.

[coach vahid]

Il y a 2 heures, sovy666 a dit :

For those still on FM22, how can we adapt without this TI? Maybe a change of mentality to Standard?

If i may,

On FM22, be careful i think lower tempo is much lower tempo.

[The3points]

Does your team ever get to the point where a lot of the possession is side to side and lacking final 3rd penetration? If so what do you do? With a higher tempo we still cannot make it into the final 3rd in my save (roles/tactic a little different)

Edited December 2, 2022 by The3points

[Cleon]

4 hours ago, The3points said:

Does your team ever get to the point where a lot of the possession is side to side and lacking final 3rd penetration? If so what do you do? With a higher tempo we still cannot make it into the final 3rd in my save (roles/tactic a little different)

No never due to the reasons highlighted in the article. What you see if how we'll always play.

If you're getting lots of needless possession side to side then it suggest there is an issue with the roles. As they should be enough to give you an outlet like I've shown above,

[Blinklys]

Amazing. So nice to have an updated and fresh article from Cleon. I often revisit the old article(s) on this and other subjects. Thanks!

I must say I have a newfound love for the half back. What a great and powerful tool he can be with the right mix of attributes. Having someone defensively solid who can also spot and pick a progressive pass is just gold.

[RealDeal_3]

Could you discuss the decision to use the hold shape team instruction? I understand it in theory but I’ve never used hold shape even in possession tactics because I still want fast transitions when the opportunity is there and I was worried this would prevent that. Have you noticed this being an issue?

Edited December 2, 2022 by RealDeal_3

[Sanders81]

are all the positions/roles apart from IW just the standard with no PI's added ?

 

[Cleon]

2 hours ago, Blinklys said:

Amazing. So nice to have an updated and fresh article from Cleon. I often revisit the old article(s) on this and other subjects. Thanks!

I must say I have a newfound love for the half back. What a great and powerful tool he can be with the right mix of attributes. Having someone defensively solid who can also spot and pick a progressive pass is just gold.

Thanks

12 minutes ago, RealDeal_3 said:

Could you discuss the decision to use the hold shape team instruction? I understand it in theory but I’ve never used hold shape even in possession tactics because I still want fast transitions when the opportunity is there and I was worried this would prevent that. Have you noticed this being an issue?

I still have fast transitions when its a realistic option, like I showcased in the article. It doesn't stop you having them, it just lets it happen naturally instead of forcing it by using counter like in your set up.

Using counter instead of hold shape just forces the issues and makes you try to attack, attack, attack constant with no real build up. Holding shape, we play our usual game and let the roles/duties/TI's dictate how we play. Using counter with these roles and settings that I've used just don't make sense. If I was using counter I'd be better off using more aggressive roles.

8 minutes ago, Sanders81 said:

are all the positions/roles apart from IW just the standard with no PI's added ?

 

Everything is standard yeah.

[Sanders81]

thank you 

 

[milendinkov]

Realy nice readiing. What would you do if you face much better side with realy fast players upfront (like real madrid) and better mentals in midfield? 

[yonko]

Great informative article. However, for me personally, it is not possession tactic if it averages less than 60% possession. Also, I dislike terms like "possession with a purpose" and "possession for the sake of it". The purpose of possession tactic is to dominate and control the game through dominating the ball and not allowing the opposition to have it. In this case the possession is used to attack and defend at the same time. 

[Cleon]

16 hours ago, milendinkov said:

Realy nice readiing. What would you do if you face much better side with realy fast players upfront (like real madrid) and better mentals in midfield? 

As I pointed out in the article, every other team I played except 1 are all  way stronger than me. I also spoke about asking the defensive line to drop off when facing fast players. Those are the only changed I'd make.

 

12 hours ago, yonko said:

Great informative article. However, for me personally, it is not possession tactic if it averages less than 60% possession. Also, I dislike terms like "possession with a purpose" and "possession for the sake of it". The purpose of possession tactic is to dominate and control the game through dominating the ball and not allowing the opposition to have it. In this case the possession is used to attack and defend at the same time. 

So you think I can take the 2nd worse team in Denmark, playing in the 4th tier and have way higher possession in the first season than 58% playing with no attributes, no star ratings etc? Winning games and having the most possession in the league and competing when the board expected me to win no games and get relegated? Give over man and get some perspective, you're chatting nonsense  

I'll kindly wait to see you playing the same way with the weakest team in the nation and showing how you do it 

Also in FM terms there absolutely is a difference between possession and possession for the sake of it. Just look around the forum or social media and it's littered with posts about having high possession but doing nothing with it and unable to score.

You yourself played as one of the best teams in the world and it took you a few seasons to get really high possession numbers. Yet you expect me to do it first season; This was you no?

With the way possession had been reworked it's much harder to get greater numbers now as it's actually passes that count and not time on the ball. So you're restricted.

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by Cleon

[Cleon]

When I eventually add the second piece of this article, it will focus on how we use the ball differently when we make a subtle change like a different role or duty. And show the impacts it has overall and changes all the dynamics of the team meaning you now use the ball in a different way but still achieve same results.

[Fantasista10]

3 hours ago, Cleon said:

When I eventually add the second piece of this article, it will focus on how we use the ball differently when we make a subtle change like a different role or duty. And show the impacts it has overall and changes all the dynamics of the team meaning you now use the ball in a different way but still achieve same results.

Can’t wait for this part! My current tactic is very similar to yours in terms of the instructions (I tweaked the Tiki Taka preset very slightly) but my roles and duties are quite different.

Namely, I have a Winger on Attack on one side. And use an IWB instead of a standard FB, as I attempted to recreate an Arteta/Pep system. 

One thing I’ve never been good at in FM, is understanding how much (or how little) changing a role or duty can impact an entire setup. I usually try and replicate a system, like I believe yours was based on Spain? But when things start to go wrong, I struggle to understand what I should change and the ramifications that those changes will have on the end goal. 

[yonko]

9 hours ago, Cleon said:

As I pointed out in the article, every other team I played except 1 are all  way stronger than me. I also spoke about asking the defensive line to drop off when facing fast players. Those are the only changed I'd make.

 

So you think I can take the 2nd worse team in Denmark, playing in the 4th tier and have way higher possession in the first season than 58% playing with no attributes, no star ratings etc? Winning games and having the most possession in the league and competing when the board expected me to win no games and get relegated? Give over man and get some perspective, you're chatting nonsense  

I'll kindly wait to see you playing the same way with the weakest team in the nation and showing how you do it 

Also in FM terms there absolutely is a difference between possession and possession for the sake of it. Just look around the forum or social media and it's littered with posts about having high possession but doing nothing with it and unable to score.

You yourself played as one of the best teams in the world and it took you a few seasons to get really high possession numbers. Yet you expect me to do it first season; This was you no?

With the way possession had been reworked it's much harder to get greater numbers now as it's actually passes that count and not time on the ball. So you're restricted.

 

Actually I find it easier now to get high possession averages with the way it has been reworked in FM23. I agree with you that lower average percentage in your example/article could be because you are playing with lower level team and you don't actually use attributes cause you play attributeless. And there are certain attributes that are important to dominate and achieve average high percentage possession.

Also, there is no doubt I've had my struggles in the past, as many others, to recreate real life possession tactics in FM with the tools we are given. And I hold myself to the same standard for possession tactic as I said in my previous post. I aim to average at least 60% average possession to be satisfied with the tactic and call it a "possession tactic". Yes I want to be successful, score goals, etc. but the standard for me is minimum of 60% average possession for the season. And I find myself getting even greedier and aiming for average of 65% and above. Pep's Barca is my real life example and inspiration for possession tactic and his team averaged around 65% - 67%.

Lastly, the term "possession for the sake of it" is nonsense actually. There is no such thing. I think this is a term created in the media by pundits who don't really understand that style of play. 

[Cleon]

12 hours ago, yonko said:

Actually I find it easier now to get high possession averages with the way it has been reworked in FM23. I agree with you that lower average percentage in your example/article could be because you are playing with lower level team and you don't actually use attributes cause you play attributeless. And there are certain attributes that are important to dominate and achieve average high percentage possession.

Also, there is no doubt I've had my struggles in the past, as many others, to recreate real life possession tactics in FM with the tools we are given. And I hold myself to the same standard for possession tactic as I said in my previous post. I aim to average at least 60% average possession to be satisfied with the tactic and call it a "possession tactic". Yes I want to be successful, score goals, etc. but the standard for me is minimum of 60% average possession for the season. And I find myself getting even greedier and aiming for average of 65% and above. Pep's Barca is my real life example and inspiration for possession tactic and his team averaged around 65% - 67%.

Lastly, the term "possession for the sake of it" is nonsense actually. There is no such thing. I think this is a term created in the media by pundits who don't really understand that style of play. 

It's all about context and the level you are at. If you are a amateur/weak side then getting high possession numbers 65+ is much harder as it relies on technical players. But all that matters at those levels is having more possession than any other side in that league. If you manage that, then no one can argue it isn't a possession tactic. If you're a strong side like you with Barca then imo anything less than 65+ first season would be deemed a failure for me with the players they have. It's easier on FM23 to have major possession numbers if you play as a good side. Harder if you play as a rubbish side as it's passes that count now like explained in the article.

We'll have to agree to disagree here though because in game terms (not talking RL so no idea why you keep bringing that up, the article was clear I was talking about the game and don't think I brought up RL once) there is such a thing about toothless possession and doing nothing with it. I was just reading another post of yours actually just now, where you was talking about this exact thing and wasn't really scoring as much as you should or creating anything meaningful. And that was posted in 2020. 

16 hours ago, Fantasista10 said:

Can’t wait for this part! My current tactic is very similar to yours in terms of the instructions (I tweaked the Tiki Taka preset very slightly) but my roles and duties are quite different.

Namely, I have a Winger on Attack on one side. And use an IWB instead of a standard FB, as I attempted to recreate an Arteta/Pep system. 

One thing I’ve never been good at in FM, is understanding how much (or how little) changing a role or duty can impact an entire setup. I usually try and replicate a system, like I believe yours was based on Spain? But when things start to go wrong, I struggle to understand what I should change and the ramifications that those changes will have on the end goal. 

Remember that the style you are creating is the end goal, something a lot of people don't realise or forget. Yonko above seems to have forgotten that with his replies and is posting like you have the end product at the start, which isn't realistic. The recreation or whatever you are making should also be the end goal and what you work towards, which you seem to be doing already . You'll also have to make some kind of compromise along the way too due to it being just a game and unable to replicate the most advance things.

If things go wrong then take some time to assess what is going wrong. You can use the data hub, watch games, even pause the game at random intervals and look at players positioning etc. Try and pin point what is going wrong and then you'll likely have limited options to fix it anyway. So a lot of stuff is easily fixable when you narrow them down.

Another thing is, when doing a recreation it's much harder. Let's take the Pep example you spoke about above, this is hard to replicate because it wasn't a one fit for all. If he played different personnel then his style changes slightly too, with how they used the ball, created space and had runners. Still the same end product but slightly different in the way it was achieved.

So it might be much easier to focus on a specific event, goal, phase of play or so on, for the recreation as it's much easier to replicate compared to a full 90 minutes.

 

[yonko]

1 hour ago, Cleon said:

It's all about context and the level you are at. If you are a amateur/weak side then getting high possession numbers 65+ is much harder as it relies on technical players. But all that matters at those levels is having more possession than any other side in that league. If you manage that, then no one can argue it isn't a possession tactic. If you're a strong side like you with Barca then imo anything less than 65+ first season would be deemed a failure for me with the players they have. It's easier on FM23 to have major possession numbers if you play as a good side. Harder if you play as a rubbish side as it's passes that count now like explained in the article.

We'll have to agree to disagree here though because in game terms (not talking RL so no idea why you keep bringing that up, the article was clear I was talking about the game and don't think I brought up RL once) there is such a thing about toothless possession and doing nothing with it. I was just reading another post of yours actually just now, where you was talking about this exact thing and wasn't really scoring as much as you should or creating anything meaningful. And that was posted in 2020. 

I respect your opinion and efforts. But for me a possession tactic should average 60% even at lower level with weak teams. Toothless possession, sure. Your players can struggle sometimes to score goals, it happens in FM as it does in real life. Players miss chances, GKs have great games, opponents stay deep and limit space, etc. But that doesn't justify the term "possession for the sake of it". Possession always has a purpose and aims for more than just for the sake of it. My post from 2020 is irrelevant to this discussion because FM23 is different than the FM version that post was about. 

I think it comes down to matter of personal preference and standards. I'm pretty sure that if the MEZ is changed to Support duty and the RPM was changed to DLP-S, then your tactic will average 60% possession or more. But you prefer something more sharp in attack to create and score more than have higher possession averages. I think you mentioned that in future parts of the article you will introduce how different roles impact the tactic and the outcome. 

 

[Panosgeo79]

Great topic Cleon

Do you still believe that for aggressive mentalities it's better to use for possession football less aggressive roles?

For example FB I stead of WB,or IW instead of IF or Raum?

[Sarriball14]

Great read! For a club DNA for this style of play what would you say the core Attributes are for Technical mental and physical.

[Cleon]

2 hours ago, Panosgeo79 said:

Great topic Cleon

Do you still believe that for aggressive mentalities it's better to use for possession football less aggressive roles?

For example FB I stead of WB,or IW instead of IF or Raum?

Thanks

It's a personal preference of mine but I believe it to be the best for me for sure and the way I play yeah. Just like I prefer aggressive roles in less aggressive mentalities, 

56 minutes ago, Sarriball14 said:

Great read! For a club DNA for this style of play what would you say the core Attributes are for Technical mental and physical.

This is taken from my book;

The Passing/Possession Approach

Over the last few years, lots of teams have gone possession crazy since the likes of Barcelona and Spain both set the tactical trends of what we see now over 10 years ago. This type of game often involves a slow meticulous build-up of play where the ball is patiently passed around the pitch, often being played out from the back. The aim is to keep possession at all costs until an opening is created and there is a possibility of a shot at goal. This does require highly technical players who are composed on the ball so they can keep the ball at their feet until an opening occurs. It also requires patience and needs to have runners so you can do something useful with the ball. Having possession is easy but can you create something that retains possession and uses it in dangerous positions? This part is hard and might require a lot of time watching games and seeing how the players and roles interact with each other.

Technical Attributes

• First Touch – You need people who can control the ball and won’t risk giving it away by having a heavy first touch.
• Passing – You want people on the side who can distribute the ball well to take advantage of situations in the game. Poor distribution will lead to missed opportunities.
• Technique - As you are creating a passing game you need to ensure you have players who are comfy with the ball at their feet and can actually do stuff with it.

Mental Attributes

• Anticipation - You’ll want the players to anticipate the movement of others around them as well as the type of ball they might be about to receive.
• Composure - Quite a vital attribute for me as someone with low composure will have their decision-making rushed and could become flustered if they are being pressed/closed down heavily or have little time on the ball. You don’t want players who are likely to panic to have lots of possession as they will likely always be forced into making a quick decision that they aren’t capable of doing correctly.
• Concentration - Players need to be switched on for the full 90 minutes, any lapse of concentration could see them making more mistakes and these can be costly especially if you intend to retain possession.
• Vision – Again this is important as you need a player to be able to see his options around him. Someone with low vision is unlikely to see all the available options and could miss seeing the obvious choices.
• Off The Ball - You need players who are able to move around and find a bit of space so they aren’t static. This will help keep possession if players move around losing their marker etc as it means the player on the ball will have free options around him to pick out a pass.
• Teamwork - Again this is needed to play as a unit. But if you have a few special talents in your side that might be better playing as individuals then this isn’t as important. But very few teams have that kind of luxury.

Physical Attributes

• Agility - Provides the player with the ability to turn fast if needed. Ideally, all attacking players should be agile when playing an attacking game. As they’ll be receiving the ball a lot and sometimes might find themselves with it when they weren't expecting it.
• Balance - You don’t want players who can’t stay on their feet to see much of the ball as they’ll give possession away far too cheaply. You have to be confident that players who see lots of the ball don’t fall over or go to the ground easily.
• Strength - Not everyone needs this but it can be a good idea to have a few physically strong players on the side, especially in those positions where you might need the player to be creative and get stuck into certain battles. The higher the attribute the better as it means they should be able to shrug certain challenges off and not lose the ball so easily.

[exitt14]

On 01/12/2022 at 09:44, Cleon said:

Don't let anyone ever tell you that your memory goes as you get older, as you are correct 

I purposely didn't use a SV as that is what I used heavily with the Brazilian Box formation I used last year and included in the book. Tried to mix it up a little. As there's some roles on the game and pairings that I'd always use. An AP support and a Mez on attack, for me is the best combo on the game.

The drop off more instruction.

May I ask what makes AP support and Mez on attack the best combo for you? Just so I can maybe use it and help train my eye on what makes them an effective pairing when I analyze tactics? I’m reading your football manager playbook and it’s great help, thank you very much!

[Cleon]

4 minutes ago, exitt14 said:

May I ask what makes AP support and Mez on attack the best combo for you? Just so I can maybe use it and help train my eye on what makes them an effective pairing when I analyze tactics? I’m reading your football manager playbook and it’s great help, thank you very much!

The AP sitting deep and just hitting the Mez in high up positions constantly with the ball and playing him into space. It's devastating due to the runs the Mez makes.

[exitt14]

55 minutes ago, Cleon said:

The AP sitting deep and just hitting the Mez in high up positions constantly with the ball and playing him into space. It's devastating due to the runs the Mez makes.

Thanks! I'm new to the game and so it's all a bit overwhelming lol, but that's to be expected. My initial (uninformed) expectation would've been that a mezzala might make too many runs to the flanks and isolate an AP operating the the middle of the pitch. And perhaps an attacking midfielder might be a better option since they may stay more central. As I said though, that is pure uninformed speculation. Honestly what is most difficult for me as someone who wants to implement many of your suggestions is the fact that I'm an American who is not well versed in football in general, and so it's hard to me to have a picture in my head of how I want my team to play! I don't have a team I watch or a base of knowledge to work with, so I only have nebulous concepts that aren't exactly a cohesive style that translates to an FM tactic. Do you maybe have any suggestions on a resource that might be useful for a total newbie to use as a base for recreating a tactic? Or finding a style that can be translated to an FM tactic? Thanks again for the reply 

[Cleon]

17 hours ago, exitt14 said:

Thanks! I'm new to the game and so it's all a bit overwhelming lol, but that's to be expected. My initial (uninformed) expectation would've been that a mezzala might make too many runs to the flanks and isolate an AP operating the the middle of the pitch. And perhaps an attacking midfielder might be a better option since they may stay more central. As I said though, that is pure uninformed speculation. Honestly what is most difficult for me as someone who wants to implement many of your suggestions is the fact that I'm an American who is not well versed in football in general, and so it's hard to me to have a picture in my head of how I want my team to play! I don't have a team I watch or a base of knowledge to work with, so I only have nebulous concepts that aren't exactly a cohesive style that translates to an FM tactic. Do you maybe have any suggestions on a resource that might be useful for a total newbie to use as a base for recreating a tactic? Or finding a style that can be translated to an FM tactic? Thanks again for the reply 

The Mez plays more in the half spaces rather than the flanks for most parts. The AP is also mobile but they're usually in close proximity to each other.

As for suggestions for a source for ideas on playstyles etc, I'd honestly use the presets. Read what the roles do and the settings they have and then play around. If you start reading real life stuff, I think that might be a bit overwhelming and confuse you even more. Especially as FM doesn't always use replicate life terminology like you read about. In FM the same thing can be slightly different.

[Maxim26]

Hi. Please tell me what do you think about the OI and individual instructions?

[Cleon]

3 hours ago, Maxim26 said:

Hi. Please tell me what do you think about the OI and individual instructions?

I never use OI's and none of the players above have individual instructions. Individual instructions are a good way of getting a player to do something specific that he currently does do, but I had no need for them here. I dislike OI's as they make your tactic behave very differently to how you've set up, so I never use them as I always have full faith in my systems.

[phnompenhandy]

On 03/12/2022 at 07:03, yonko said:

Great informative article. However, for me personally, it is not possession tactic if it averages less than 60% possession. Also, I dislike terms like "possession with a purpose" and "possession for the sake of it". The purpose of possession tactic is to dominate and control the game through dominating the ball and not allowing the opposition to have it. In this case the possession is used to attack and defend at the same time. 

Thinking of your post watching Spain in the World Cup.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/live/football/61047682/page/2

Edited December 6, 2022 by phnompenhandy