Match 20: England vs USA - ITV1 7PM GMT live from the Al Bayt Stadium

[Zapoleon]

Got flash backs to the euros when it was shown game after game Southgate is just unable to make good substitutions to change or impact games. 

I do think there is a bit of fear there aswell, where he would rather not make changes until very late, And the changes he does make tend to be more negative. 

Such a crime given the players he has on the bench.

[Lucas]

1 minute ago, PaulHartman71 said:

So I can’t see why or how Southgate would want him to drop as deep as he does. 

I've always thought the idea was to draw space for Sterling to run into. But then he gets so deep, it's daft. And may as well play where Mount does and try someone like Wilson up front instead.

When Sterling comes off, the tactics change a bit depending who it is.

[Mr Adam]

5 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

 

I know people like Pickford for England but if you want to play out from the back and actually create stuff he has to start Ramsdale. He won’t. And I accept Pickford is a better old school goalkeeper but ultimately Pickford can’t hit it 60 yards and find Saka or Sterling at their feet. Ramsdale can. White should also be involved IMO in some capacity. 

 

It’s interesting this. I don’t watch enough top level football now to be able to pass judgement. But when Pickford broke through for us he was absolutely brilliant at doing exactly what you’re describing. He was brilliant at long diagonal passes to feet like this. But always had to work on ball control playing it around like modern keepers do.

[PaulHartman71]

21 minutes ago, Mr Adam said:

It’s interesting this. I don’t watch enough top level football now to be able to pass judgement. But when Pickford broke through for us he was absolutely brilliant at doing exactly what you’re describing. He was brilliant at long diagonal passes to feet like this. But always had to work on ball control playing it around like modern keepers do.

It might be that he’s being instructed not to do that but just seemed so many times we wasted possession by knocking it long, clearing it or kicking it out when we could’ve progressed it instead. I rate Declan Rice but feel the £100M player tags are a bit rich based on that performance, there were 20 minute spells where you didn’t even notice he was playing. 

Turner doesn’t even start for us and I don’t think he’s that good really but you could see the Arteta influence as every time he was trying to play out from the back and be positive when he had the ball for them. 

[Astafjevs]

https://youtube.com/shorts/y9iNC8A662M?feature=share

Looks capable of it to me

 

[thomyorkessoul]

5 hours ago, Darius1998 said:

Wait, Musah is only eligible for the US because his parents were holidaying there when he was born?

A win for the US Tourism industry 

[_mxrky]

1 hour ago, Mr Adam said:

It’s interesting this. I don’t watch enough top level football now to be able to pass judgement. But when Pickford broke through for us he was absolutely brilliant at doing exactly what you’re describing. He was brilliant at long diagonal passes to feet like this. But always had to work on ball control playing it around like modern keepers do.

Pickford hits his  long balls off the pitch more regularly than finding a player from it

[thefmveteran86]

Do we think swap Mount for Foden for Tuesday? or bring him on if we look bad?

[adhikapp]

2 hours ago, thefmveteran86 said:

Do we think swap Mount for Foden for Tuesday? or bring him on if we look bad?

This is Southgate we're talking about. Mount will play the whole 90 minutes against Wales with 500 sideways passes. I'm usually a Mount supporter but he was bad last night. And with someone like Foden on the bench, it makes no sense. Southgate couldn't tell his left hand apart from his right.

[Barry Cartman]

Southgate reasoning for not bringing on Foden was he had already brought 2 wide players on and Foden doesn't play centre for his club 

He's an absolute clown, he is the one who has been using Foden in the middle for the past year or so for England. Even if that was any sort of reasonable explanation, that means he still brought on Grealish and Rashford ahead of Phil ****ing Foden 

 

[metal_guitarist]

Starting 11 should be Pickford; Walker/Trippier, Stones, Maguire, Shaw; Rice, Bellingham, Foden; Saka, Kane, Rashford. You've then got Grealish, Maddison (when fit), Wilson and TAA to change the game from an attacking standpoint with White, Coady/Dier, Phillips and Gallagher if you need to shore things up towards the end. Sterling and Mount should be nowhere near the team.  

[georginho_juventusygr]

Drop someone for Grealish.

[arenaross]

Grealish can't start for England until he's at a big club and has played at the highest level iirc. 

[m_fenton]

10 hours ago, aggressive minor said:

Don’t forget Henderson, he was *****

 

9 hours ago, skybluedave said:

I actually think the Henderson sub worked. We had no control of the midfield and Henderson did counter that. Soon as he came on, the US seemed to have less of a threat. Just everything in front of him didn't work. 

 

9 hours ago, The_jagster said:

Henderson was charging around wondering why nobody was joining in the press, so he was either doing his own thing or the rest of the team weren't doing what Southgate wanted them to.

Yeah, Henderson coming on is what actually gave is some organisation and drive to finally start pressing a bit. Some people only see the negatives they want to see I guess, but the Henderson change was a good one.

[Bootador]

Henderson did more in his cameo than Rice and Bellingham combined. 

[thefmveteran86]

1 hour ago, adhikapp said:

This is Southgate we're talking about. Mount will play the whole 90 minutes against Wales with 500 sideways passes. I'm usually a Mount supporter but he was bad last night. And with someone like Foden on the bench, it makes no sense. Southgate couldn't tell his left hand apart from his right.

It's like Deschamp constantly leaving Mbappe on the bench, it makes no ****ing sense

[Marc Albrighton]

1 hour ago, Barry Cartman said:

Southgate reasoning for not bringing on Foden was he had already brought 2 wide players on and Foden doesn't play centre for his club 

He's an absolute clown, he is the one who has been using Foden in the middle for the past year or so for England. Even if that was any sort of reasonable explanation, that means he still brought on Grealish and Rashford ahead of Phil ****ing Foden 

 

He always gives reasons that contradict a previous reason given tbf. Its all about form one minute but then someone says if its about form then why are people like Mount playing then it becomes about something else.

[Weezer]

At the time I was moaning that there was a game to be won and he’s bringing in Henderson but tbf Henderson was one of the better players. Still frustrating that we’re taking off Bellingham for Henderson and not Foden in a very winnable game and Southgate still can’t see beyond like for like substitutions.

[Bigwig]

Southgate has his favourites and will come out with anything to justify his selection, even if it completely contradicts what he’s previously said. He’s not the only manager to do that. 

[Butts]

Can we sack him mid tournament?

[Rebs]

It was drab but jeez man, I've seen so much worse than that from England before. I think a lot are going over the top a bit with the criticism.

[skybluedave]

He's more worried about Ecuador and then France, wants Holland and then Saudi Arabia. All part of the plan 

[Butts]

35 minutes ago, Rebs said:

It was drab but jeez man, I've seen so much worse than that from England before. I think a lot are going over the top a bit with the criticism.

It's not just the performance though, it's leaving a generational talent on the bench while one of his favourites plays 90 minutes despite being as close to international level as me.

[av3ry]

If Phil Foden cannot play in midfield according to Gareth Southgate then fine, what position does he play? Left-wing and in for Sterling?
If James Maddison is not fit enough to play against Wales then what was the point in bringing him out to Qatar?

Maddison and Foden in, Sterling and Mount out against Wales. There was also an arguement to involve Trent Alexander-Arnold, but Kieran Trippier has done nothing wrong so would be harsh to bench him imo.

[brett.spurs]

People love to jump on the Kane dropping deep thing as their go-to for an abject performance. Had he stayed high up the pitch the game would have played out no differently, you'd just have people moaning that he barely touched the ball instead. 

[Bootador]

I think Kane did well last night with no support at all, held the ball up really and linked the play with the limited service he had. The midfield was shocking last night (and the wingers/Trippier to a lesser extent) and that's where the fault lies.

Edited November 26, 2022 by Bootador

[EnterUsernameHere]

30 minutes ago, brett.spurs said:

People love to jump on the Kane dropping deep thing as their go-to for an abject performance. Had he stayed high up the pitch the game would have played out no differently, you'd just have people moaning that he barely touched the ball instead. 

There were definitely a few occasions, late on especially, when there was no one for a wide player to pass to as Kane hadn't yet got back up top in time.

[Smallen]

That quote from Gareth saying he wouldn't bring Foden on in the middle because he doesn't play there for his club is genuinely bonkers. He brought him on there a few days ago and he did well  

[XuluBak]

Kane dropping deep and Pickford's distribution were the least of your problems. Mount was poor and really has no business starting for you, especially if you're not gonna press, but he was nowhere near your worst performer. Hell, he was probably your best actual midfielder until Henderson came on because Bellingham looked lost and Rice was hiding. Saka started well, but after the opening 15 or so, your wide players were largely irrelevant... Until Grealish came on to get kicked. 

I think Robinson deserves some credit for handling Saka, but Dest, a defensive liability, was hardly challenged. 

Edited November 26, 2022 by XuluBak

[skybluedave]

Thought Dest played well. Good threat going forward. Was suprised and pleased he came off

[XuluBak]

11 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

Thought Dest played well. Good threat going forward. Was suprised and pleased he came off

Dest played well. Not suggesting otherwise, but that's at least in part because Sterling wasn't doing ****.

Dest and McKinnie came off to avoid missing Iran for accumulation. I couldn't tell you why Shaq Moore came on though. Hopefully, it doesn't happen again. 

Edited November 26, 2022 by XuluBak

[av3ry]

Because Shaquille Moore is a name.

Clive and Ally McCoist were debating who had the coolest name in the World Cup after Clive said Denzel Dumfries a few times during Netherlands Ecuador.

Edited November 26, 2022 by av3ry

[Rob1981]

Just now, av3ry said:

Clive and Ally McCoist were debating who had the coolest name in the World Cup

Yeltsin Tejeda from Costa Rica

[Baptista_8]

3 hours ago, m_fenton said:

 

 

Yeah, Henderson coming on is what actually gave is some organisation and drive to finally start pressing a bit. Some people only see the negatives they want to see I guess, but the Henderson change was a good one.

We'd have more control playing either Rice-Henderson-Bellingham or Rice-Bellingham-Foden.

[craigcwwe]

Watching Southgate in an interview the day before the game he was really talking up the States, a decent side on the rise with some good players sure but still a side you expect to beat more often than not for us so I can only imagine how he had the playing squad feeling going into this game and given the way we approached the game from minute one it worked on them. It was woeful stuff all game. No press. Passing it around at the back before pumping one down the channels and bypassing CM. There was not an ounce of desire from us to go out there and win the game. We came for a draw. 

Southgate's reasoning for not bringing on Foden is BS. He brought Rashford on to play RW when he's terrible on the right and barely plays there for United. Yes he scored off the right in the first game but he is not a right winger. 

If Southgate was that worried about USA what will he be like if/when we face another top nation? Back five and two DMs to return?

[Rob1981]

28 minutes ago, craigcwwe said:

If Southgate was that worried about USA what will he be like if/when we face another top nation? Back five and two DMs to return?

Big call to make on Kyle Walker over the next couple of days. Hasn’t played since 2nd October, I don’t see how you can suddenly throw him straight into the starting eleven for a huge R16 or the QF if he’s rusty and if he’s not had any other matches under his belt. 

So Southgate either switches things around and gives him some minutes against Wales. Or maybe we start thinking about going through the rest of the tournament against bigger teams but still only using him off the bench. 

Still think that’s probably what last night’s approach was about. Using the four at the back but with a gameplan to try and contain the opposition instead of letting the handbrake off and running at them. Maybe we were looking at how a Walker-less England sets up in the later stages.

Remember that Southgate left Henderson out of the starting team right through the Euros, even though he got over an injury mid-tournament. And even though Phillips had only got a handful of caps going in.

Edited November 26, 2022 by Rob1981

[craigcwwe]

16 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Big call to make on Kyle Walker over the next couple of days. Hasn’t played since 2nd October, I don’t see how you can suddenly throw him straight into the starting eleven for a huge R16 or the QF if he’s rusty and if he’s not had any other matches under his belt. 

So Southgate either switches things around and gives him some minutes against Wales. Or maybe we start thinking about going through the rest of the tournament against bigger teams but still only using him off the bench. 

Still think that’s probably what last night’s approach was about. Using the four at the back but with a gameplan to try and contain the opposition instead of letting the handbrake off and running at them. Maybe we were looking at how a Walker-less England sets up in the later stages.

Remember that Southgate left Henderson out of the starting team right through the Euros, even though he got over an injury mid-tournament. And even though Phillips had only got a handful of caps going in.

Walker I think needs to get some minutes on Tuesday. At least an hour. Maybe Trent to play the last half hour? 

Kalvin Phillips needs minutes too. 

[craigcwwe]

18m viewers for this one last night. 

[JJ72]

10 minutes ago, craigcwwe said:

18m viewers for this one last night. 

At least a third of the population slept well then

[RTHerringbone]

2 hours ago, Rob1981 said:

Still think that’s probably what last night’s approach was about. Using the four at the back but with a gameplan to try and contain the opposition instead of letting the handbrake off and running at them. Maybe we were looking at how a Walker-less England sets up in the later stages.

Do you genuinely believe that we would effectively write off a couple of points to carry out this experiment, for a full 90 minutes? I don't buy it at all but would perhaps give it some modicum of possibility if we'd done it for 45 minutes and then switched to something more watchable.

I know it's not the end of the world but I'd rather we actually played with the intent to win and continue the momentum from Iran. Now we're just at a point where a large number of people are asking the same old questions about Southgate.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

2 hours ago, craigcwwe said:

18m viewers for this one last night. 

Going to be some pretty huge figures if we go deep in this tournament.

[PaulHartman71]

4 hours ago, av3ry said:

If Phil Foden cannot play in midfield according to Gareth Southgate then fine, what position does he play? Left-wing and in for Sterling?
If James Maddison is not fit enough to play against Wales then what was the point in bringing him out to Qatar?

Maddison and Foden in, Sterling and Mount out against Wales. There was also an arguement to involve Trent Alexander-Arnold, but Kieran Trippier has done nothing wrong so would be harsh to bench him imo.

I do wonder if Maddison lied about the extent of his injury to still go. Taking him over a fully fit Bowen for example seems a bit of a weird call given Maddison is hardly a regular. 

[PaulHartman71]

1 minute ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Going to be some pretty huge figures if we go deep in this tournament.

One of the irritating things when out of touch people in high positions in football talk about kids not liking football anymore. They just can’t ****ing watch it. If you put football on free TV then people will watch it. 

Champions League and Premier League official viewing figures only going to drop off in the next few years as more and more people have less and less disposable income. 

[Rob1981]

36 minutes ago, RTHerringbone said:

Do you genuinely believe that we would effectively write off a couple of points to carry out this experiment, for a full 90 minutes? I don't buy it at all but would perhaps give it some modicum of possibility if we'd done it for 45 minutes and then switched to something more watchable.

I don't think we "wrote off two points" at all.  We set up with a more defensive mindset, and still had few decent sniffs of goal in the first half.  But we also knew that a draw all but qualified us, and the USA knew that a point against us kept it in their own hands when they play Iran.  So the longer the game went on, the less likely either team were going to bust a gut and risk leaving themselves open at the other end.

Everything that Gareth and his backup team have done to prepare for previous tournaments has been meticulously detailed.  I'm not saying he's always got it right, and I get why people are frustrated when we've got loads of attacking players and he sets up to avoid defeat.  But the idea that he is winging it game by game and doesn't have a plan for the tournament overall is ludicrous.  It was clear that he was happy with a point last night.  We take it and move on.

Said this during the Euros... it's about time we got a bit more street smart during these group stages.  Look at the final day permutations for some of the other top teams.  Being through unless we somehow lose 4-0 to Wales is the stuff of dreams   But if we'd gone harder at the USA and lost 1-0 then suddenly we need a result in what is basically a derby match.  No point taking unneccessary risks just to keep the Twitter detractors happy.

[Ackter]

8 hours ago, adhikapp said:

This is Southgate we're talking about. Mount will play the whole 90 minutes against Wales with 500 sideways passes. I'm usually a Mount supporter but he was bad last night. And with someone like Foden on the bench, it makes no sense. Southgate couldn't tell his left hand apart from his right.

Yeah don't worry, you'll be playing against 9 players as I'm sure we'll "start" Bale and Ramsey again.

[PMLF]

2 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Said this during the Euros... it's about time we got a bit more street smart during these group stages.  Look at the final day permutations for some of the other top teams.  Being through unless we somehow lose 4-0 to Wales is the stuff of dreams   But if we'd gone harder at the USA and lost 1-0 then suddenly we need a result in what is basically a derby match.  No point taking unneccessary risks just to keep the Twitter detractors happy.

Brazil’s plan in the group stage is a lot simpler, just try to beat everyone.  

It’s not like the USA is some super strong team, England on paper should have beaten them.

[Ackter]

7 minutes ago, PMLF said:

Brazil’s plan in the group stage is a lot simpler, just try to beat everyone.  

It’s not like the USA is some super strong team, England on paper should have beaten them.

England fans overdose strongly on copium. 

[The_jagster]

37 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

I don't think we "wrote off two points" at all.  We set up with a more defensive mindset, and still had few decent sniffs of goal in the first half.  But we also knew that a draw all but qualified us, and the USA knew that a point against us kept it in their own hands when they play Iran.  So the longer the game went on, the less likely either team were going to bust a gut and risk leaving themselves open at the other end.

Everything that Gareth and his backup team have done to prepare for previous tournaments has been meticulously detailed.  I'm not saying he's always got it right, and I get why people are frustrated when we've got loads of attacking players and he sets up to avoid defeat.  But the idea that he is winging it game by game and doesn't have a plan for the tournament overall is ludicrous.  It was clear that he was happy with a point last night.  We take it and move on.

Said this during the Euros... it's about time we got a bit more street smart during these group stages.  Look at the final day permutations for some of the other top teams.  Being through unless we somehow lose 4-0 to Wales is the stuff of dreams   But if we'd gone harder at the USA and lost 1-0 then suddenly we need a result in what is basically a derby match.  No point taking unneccessary risks just to keep the Twitter detractors happy.

Oh no, I think we accept he has a plan. That plan revolves mostly about not conceding, which is why he lined up 5 at the back at the Euros against teams he thought were a danger and held back when we were on top against Italy. You're suggesting he was trying to play a different way as a kind of experiment, when we have just had 6 games without a win in the Nations League to try that.

[Rebs]

44 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

I don't think we "wrote off two points" at all.  We set up with a more defensive mindset, and still had few decent sniffs of goal in the first half.  But we also knew that a draw all but qualified us, and the USA knew that a point against us kept it in their own hands when they play Iran.  So the longer the game went on, the less likely either team were going to bust a gut and risk leaving themselves open at the other end.

Everything that Gareth and his backup team have done to prepare for previous tournaments has been meticulously detailed.  I'm not saying he's always got it right, and I get why people are frustrated when we've got loads of attacking players and he sets up to avoid defeat.  But the idea that he is winging it game by game and doesn't have a plan for the tournament overall is ludicrous.  It was clear that he was happy with a point last night.  We take it and move on.

Said this during the Euros... it's about time we got a bit more street smart during these group stages.  Look at the final day permutations for some of the other top teams.  Being through unless we somehow lose 4-0 to Wales is the stuff of dreams   But if we'd gone harder at the USA and lost 1-0 then suddenly we need a result in what is basically a derby match.  No point taking unneccessary risks just to keep the Twitter detractors happy.

That's how I see it. When you look at some past performances last night wasn't dreadful, bad yes but dreadful no. The result in the end was a good one for how we played and means the Wales game is a bit of an easy one now considering we know they'll be riled up for that beyond the others. 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

I don't mind taking a defensive approach, but we weren't very good at it! Allowing your opponent to have several good chances isn't great.