FM23 Double pivot and back three

[Wrap God]

Hello!

I have a problem settling on a double pivot setup in a back three system.

I've been playing since the latest version since the Beta, and was following tactical discussions since it released - it looks like SI has changed the way the midfield pivot should (or is) setup in the match engine.

For example the classic, default 4-2-3-1 now has central midfielders in the DM strata - this has been explained as better representing how teams play in real life.

My question now is: how does it apply to back three systems?

I have a rather successful system in my save with St. Pauli, but I'm too tactically inept to determine whether my midfielders should play in the CM or DM strata.

 

This is my main tactic:
(disregard the tactic name, it evolved :))

I've hit a slump in form and couldn't create more than 3-4 chances per game in 5 games in a row, which of course got me tinkering with tactics. Very first game after pushing midfielders to CM slots got me winning 7-0, thinking I cracked the secret, only to go on to fail to score in next 3 consecutive games.

 

So which one is the "better" setup?
I'm too tactically 'dumb' to analyze and draw conclusions..

[04texag]

Personally, with two WB on attack, and three attacking forwards, I would leave them in the DM strata and likely change the dlp to def duty as well, but worth trying as is both on support. I'd maybe try the left WB on support since the volante, depending on player, is going to be pretty agressive.

[Aandy]

Yes I'd say that the second tactic with CMs would definitely offer more going forwards because whilst the segundo volente/dlp combo is probably as close as you'll get to the real-life double-pivot, you don't really have anybody anywhere near them in midfield. You've got an SS in the AM role and their main focus will be to get in to goalscoring positions. You've also got the SS and AF who I would suspect are both trying to do the same thing and perhaps getting in each other's way? The DLF there is a good compromise but they'll not drop back deep enough to fit that gap. So you've essentially got no central penetration; your entire attacking outlet is via the wings and unless you're playing with a big mean brute of a target man you probably won't get too many chances as the opposition will quickly figure you out and restrict your wing play. Looking at your shape I would assume you are playing for counter attacks, yet your instructions to play out from defence would slow down your chances of those lightning quick breaks.

 

Moving the defensive midfielders to CM, and with a box to box, really opens up your central penetration as they will drive forward and occupy the space left by your SS whilst they are concentrating of getting into goalscoring positions.

 

I'm by no means a tactical expert. I would keep the 2nd tactic, but change the SS to an AM on attack, perhaps even an AP. I wouldn't worry too much about having two playmakers, they should be far enough apart that they wouldn't get in each other's way, in fact they could complement each other quite well with the DLP dictating play from deep and the AP picking that final killer ball. Thinking about it, the BBM might not even be too necessary in this set up. The role of the BBM is to offer a bit of everything; getting back to defend and contributing to the attack, but with a DLP who will naturally sit deep and 3 central defenders I think you've got a lot of bodies back there. Perhaps consider changing the BBM to a CM on support; that way they'll be a bit more positionally disciplined and more of a link between the DLP and your AM.

[04texag]

2 minutes ago, Aandy said:

you don't really have anybody anywhere near them in midfield.

I think that the two DM slot roles selected are both going to get plenty  forward, I think this is actually the most balanced of the two, but worth playing both to see.

[Wrap God]

9 minutes ago, Aandy said:

Yes I'd say that the second tactic with CMs would definitely offer more going forwards because whilst the segundo volente/dlp combo is probably as close as you'll get to the real-life double-pivot, you don't really have anybody anywhere near them in midfield. You've got an SS in the AM role and their main focus will be to get in to goalscoring positions. You've also got the SS and AF who I would suspect are both trying to do the same thing and perhaps getting in each other's way? The DLF there is a good compromise but they'll not drop back deep enough to fit that gap. So you've essentially got no central penetration; your entire attacking outlet is via the wings and unless you're playing with a big mean brute of a target man you probably won't get too many chances as the opposition will quickly figure you out and restrict your wing play. Looking at your shape I would assume you are playing for counter attacks, yet your instructions to play out from defence would slow down your chances of those lightning quick breaks.

 

Moving the defensive midfielders to CM, and with a box to box, really opens up your central penetration as they will drive forward and occupy the space left by your SS whilst they are concentrating of getting into goalscoring positions.

 

I'm by no means a tactical expert. I would keep the 2nd tactic, but change the SS to an AM on attack, perhaps even an AP. I wouldn't worry too much about having two playmakers, they should be far enough apart that they wouldn't get in each other's way, in fact they could complement each other quite well with the DLP dictating play from deep and the AP picking that final killer ball. Thinking about it, the BBM might not even be too necessary in this set up. The role of the BBM is to offer a bit of everything; getting back to defend and contributing to the attack, but with a DLP who will naturally sit deep and 3 central defenders I think you've got a lot of bodies back there. Perhaps consider changing the BBM to a CM on support; that way they'll be a bit more positionally disciplined and more of a link between the DLP and your AM.

I want to set up for quick attacks, but not just boot it up the field, hence only slightly higher tempo. So yes, counter attacks should be one of the weapons in my arsenal, but I've added the 'Play out of the defence' instruction as my defenders were often booting it up the field despite having passing options open in front of them.

I was initially worried about the SS as well, but from pass maps and watching the game, he often drops deep and weirdly is not involved that much. I have decent players in this position, with no traits.

Here SS is hidden behind RCM.

 

 

[Johnny Ace]

32 minutes ago, 04texag said:

Personally, with two WB on attack, and three attacking forwards, I would leave them in the DM strata and likely change the dlp to def duty as well, but worth trying as is both on support. I'd maybe try the left WB on support since the volante, depending on player, is going to be pretty agressive.

Came in to say this, I think both WBs on Attack is potentially a problem. As you can see on the pass map, they are getting high up that pitch

For both WBs on Attack, I'd dumb down the Volante to a Defensive Midfielder or try the left hand Wingback on Support 

Next thing I'd try is removing the extra width, it's probably not needed on a Positive mentality plus Wingbacks 

[Wrap God]

Just now, Johnny Ace said:

Came in to say this, I think both WBs on Attack is potentially a problem. As you can see on the pass map, they are getting high up that pitch

For both WBs on Attack, I'd dumb down the Volante to a Defensive Midfielder or try the left hand Wingback on Support 

Next thing I'd try is removing the extra width, it's probably not needed on a Positive mentality plus Wingbacks 

I appreciate the feedback!

I'm rather keen on keeping both Wingbacks on Attacks since it's kind of the cornerstone of my tactical approach - get those wingbacks high and wide to stretch the play, pulling opposition players to open gaps in midfield, while having the Wide Center Backs provideing occasional crosses from deep halfspaces.

I'll keep the pivot in the DM strata for now and change Volante to DM(Su). I will also switch SS to AM(At) as I'm not happy with how SS behaves in the ME.

[Wrap God]

50 minutes ago, 04texag said:

 likely change the dlp to def duty as well

This got me thinking - would switching the DLP to Defend while keeping him in the DM slot open up the possibility of switching right WCB to Support? I've never used other duties than Defend on WCB so not sure if it would work.

[04texag]

4 hours ago, Wrap God said:

This got me thinking - would switching the DLP to Defend while keeping him in the DM slot open up the possibility of switching right WCB to Support? I've never used other duties than Defend on WCB so not sure if it would work.

Always worth trying

[deorvd]

How's your tactic now?

Yours is pretty similar to my tactic with Inter Milan. They have no real wingers or IF that's forcing me to play with back 3. The only difference is that both CDR and CDL have CD roles with stay wider. I just don't want them going forward especially with fast counter when Volante advancing forward. 

I feel like I can never fill the gap between DMs and AMC (currently giving up on Volante-DLP def and APs). Volante will go forward but most of time the ball will never reach AMC and send the long balls to STs instead or overlapping WBs Attack (mainly left WB). I do have serious problems with scoring in open play, but get some goals from set pieces to cover it.

I haven't touched the save since Monday. Currently playing first leg against Liverpool at Anfield and they really hit hard. I concede lots of goals both from through balls and IFs cutting inside and feel like I can't stop them. It's frustrating that I can't get this tactic work

[phnompenhandy]

I devised a system whereby the left and right sided CDs took up WCD roles to cover the flanks, and one of the DMs was a half-back to drop into the back line. The other DM was a Segundo Volante on support, allowing a role to link with attack.

[Wrap God]

On 17/11/2022 at 05:11, deorvd said:

How's your tactic now?

Yours is pretty similar to my tactic with Inter Milan. They have no real wingers or IF that's forcing me to play with back 3. The only difference is that both CDR and CDL have CD roles with stay wider. I just don't want them going forward especially with fast counter when Volante advancing forward. 

I feel like I can never fill the gap between DMs and AMC (currently giving up on Volante-DLP def and APs). Volante will go forward but most of time the ball will never reach AMC and send the long balls to STs instead or overlapping WBs Attack (mainly left WB). I do have serious problems with scoring in open play, but get some goals from set pieces to cover it.

I haven't touched the save since Monday. Currently playing first leg against Liverpool at Anfield and they really hit hard. I concede lots of goals both from through balls and IFs cutting inside and feel like I can't stop them. It's frustrating that I can't get this tactic work

It wasn't bad, but not great either. I got promoted from 2 Bundesliga and have become a punching bag destined for relegation. Really hard to say how the tactic performs this way, especially that I dropped to mid/low block depending on opposition.
I know that even before promotion I had games where I couldn't create any chances, producing only 3-5 shots the entire game (!).

I'm frustrated because I don't know what the game expects me to do. Only from reading the forums I was able to deduce that in some formations the midfield pivot should be in the DM strata. The game doesn't explain where to position the midfield and doesn't provide any valuable feedback. My team of analysts can just produce charts, there is no one in the club that can come to me and say: "Hey boss, have you seen this gap between midfield and attack? Maybe you should adapt roles to close it, or switch from DMs to CMs".

Even this thread here. No one has provided a clear answer, only "just try", while I'm looking at the game going "what the hell am I supposed to do?". I don't want to waste ~30h playing through a season trying to tell where my midfield should be positioned.
 

I've put this save on pause for some time. I don't know but I have real issues diagnosing problems with my tactics this year. Players just behave erratically in general on the pitch, I can win a game 5-0 only to get 10 shots combined from the next three games.

[frukox]

20 dakika önce, Wrap God said:

It wasn't bad, but not great either. I got promoted from 2 Bundesliga and have become a punching bag destined for relegation. Really hard to say how the tactic performs this way, especially that I dropped to mid/low block depending on opposition.
I know that even before promotion I had games where I couldn't create any chances, producing only 3-5 shots the entire game (!).

I'm frustrated because I don't know what the game expects me to do. Only from reading the forums I was able to deduce that in some formations the midfield pivot should be in the DM strata. The game doesn't explain where to position the midfield and doesn't provide any valuable feedback. My team of analysts can just produce charts, there is no one in the club that can come to me and say: "Hey boss, have you seen this gap between midfield and attack? Maybe you should adapt roles to close it, or switch from DMs to CMs".

Even this thread here. No one has provided a clear answer, only "just try", while I'm looking at the game going "what the hell am I supposed to do?". I don't want to waste ~30h playing through a season trying to tell where my midfield should be positioned.
 

I've put this save on pause for some time. I don't know but I have real issues diagnosing problems with my tactics this year. Players just behave erratically in general on the pitch, I can win a game 5-0 only to get 10 shots combined from the next three games.

I don't have fm23 but somewhere on the forum they say that cms are positioned in front of central defenders so positioning them in the DM strata makes sense in that they properly defend the middle of the park. I think the problem lies in the selection of roles and TIs with regard to your request.