NOT SOUTHGATE'S LAST HURRAH: The England 2022 campaign

[InigoPatinkin]

4 minutes ago, JD nawrat said:

Doesn't football adhere to naturalisation rules though? Like, a person and footballer are both considered Spanish if they work in Spain for 3 years iirc. I think every country has this and it applies to someone working/living there. Obviously you get grandparents allowing qualification but even then, that is generally acceptable too i think? There was a lot of people getting Irish passports after Brexit through their grandparents iirc. 

Edit: The FIFA naturalisation rules are 2 years, so I assume most countries apply their own naturalisation rules? There's usually a bit of an unspoken rule about not taking the **** with it though, which is why stuff like the Diego Costa switch was scorned so much. 

Edited December 15, 2022 by InigoPatinkin

[skybluedave]

Home nations agreement makes naturalisation rule a bit moot in UK though. 

[arenaross]

Had a couple of pints with my best mate who's just got back from Qatar - he's a sports journo and was sat directly behind Grant Wahl when he died so he's found that really tough.

Anyway, he said the Ben White stuff is pretty accurate. He just doesn't like football and Arsenal are used to that and know how to manage it whereas on England duty he would be sat on his own in his room while all the rest of the squad would be having dinner and watching the games etc. This culminated in a falling out with Steve Holland and subsequently Southgate spoke to him and asked him why he was there if he didn't want to be, and he replied saying he didn't know, and Southgate told him if he didn't want to be there to leave. So he did.

[Barry Cartman]

tbf that sounds like poor man management, something Gareth is heavily praised for 

Surely you know about this before you call him up and take him to Qatar, if this was somehow not known to them, then why didn't they know. If the problem was him not wanting to join in with the other lads watching football, that doesn't seem like the worst crime going 

[Weezer]

28 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

If the problem was him not wanting to join in with the other lads watching football, that doesn't seem like the worst crime going 

Not something that can be ignored in a World Cup situation though is it? You can't have an individual deciding he can't be bothered to join the rest of the group when he doesn't feel like it, not exactly great for team spirit.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

I don't know how unusual this is, but this was his first ever tournament at any level. Never played for the U19s/U-21s.

[InigoPatinkin]

Kind of mad from either party that it was allowed to get to that stage, on a personal level surely there must have been some kind of compromise which kept White involved without making him sit through every match. 

[Rob1981]

Does all seem a bit odd.  I know mental health is an unpredictable thing.  But the preparation for a tournament is so methodical these days.  Massive attention to detail and loads of support staff working behind the scenes.  They must have GPs and sports psychologists and therapists on tap.  As well as the usual physios and coaches and fitness people on the playing side.  If it's not going to 'click' for one player in terms of the wellbeing side and them enjoying the group environment... surely that should be coming to light before they are halfway round the world and before the tournament has already started.

Better stop there, otherwise it sounds like a criticism of Sir Gareth

[Barry Cartman]

14 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Not something that can be ignored in a World Cup situation though is it? You can't have an individual deciding he can't be bothered to join the rest of the group when he doesn't feel like it, not exactly great for team spirit.

Can't be bothered seems strong, if he doesn't enjoy watching football or socialising in groups, thats something you should know before you decide to take him half way around the world for 4 weeks 

[GunmaN1905]

1 minute ago, Barry Cartman said:

Can't be bothered seems strong, if he doesn't enjoy watching football or socialising in groups, thats something you should know before you decide to take him half way around the world for 4 weeks 

Yeah, there are actually plenty of players who don't care about football at all, other than it being a job, obviously.

[enigmatic]

14 minutes ago, InigoPatinkin said:

Kind of mad from either party that it was allowed to get to that stage, on a personal level surely there must have been some kind of compromise which kept White involved without making him sit through every match. 

Reality is I don't think there was much point in compromising because he was unlikely to be needed to play, so not really much to be gained for either side in "how about you get a special pass to miss tactical briefings and only watch England games?". "You can leave if being here isn't what you want and we won't blame you" actually seems like the most sensible compromise. If it turned out Harry Kane could only deal with tournament pressure by hiding in his room and not being quizzed on tactics, there might be a bit more room for special arrangements to try to keep him there.

To a certain extent if White finds being surrounded by international teammates and socialising around football matches genuinely uncomfortable, it's probably as good a case as you'll get for refusing a callup to be a squad player. Sure Tomori and quite a few others would genuinely have enjoyed sitting on the bench watching games and hoping he'd get a few minutes

"Doesn't like football very much" still only feels like half the story though. Big difference between "it's just a job, talking about it bores me and in my spare time I'm dreaming about gardening rather than winning the World Cup" and feeling the need to avoid people and not do parts of the job.

I'm guessing that's a big reason why it was such a low tier tabloid that was willing to run with it...

[InigoPatinkin]

The way it was worded doesn't sound like tactical briefings though, much more socialising/wind down/team bonding on an evening. I would certainly hope they're slightly more structured at a World Cup than "sit around in the evening and watch the TV broadcast" since that would be next to useless. Obviously it's different if it was 'required', but 4 weeks of being at work from morning training all the way though to 11pm or whatever time the last games in Qatar finished sounds horrible if you don't really enjoy watching football anyway, I wouldn't blame him. But as I said, the way it's worded definitely seems like it was more a socialising thing, "player refuses to turn up to tactical briefings" would be a much bigger story. 

 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Who knows how accurate the initial press stories are (but it appears they all have got the basic story right) but I think it was ESPN which said he fell out with Holland because he wasn't doing the tactical "studying" expected.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Coulthard's Jaw

[InigoPatinkin]

"However, a report emerged on Friday suggesting White had been involved in a disagreement with Holland at a team meeting over a failure to recall data relating to his personal statistics."

What does that even mean?  

[Rob1981]

There was something about Steve Holland being cheesed off because he wasn’t clued up enough on the USA team. Doubt that’s him not having done “required work” for a training session though. More likely he hadn’t sat around watching their other match and maybe missed out on conversations if he wasn’t chatting with the others.

You’re getting into a very grey area here though for any walk of life. In terms of what actually counts as “work” and what counts as “socialising” if you are out with work people and you end up talking about work stuff.

[Weezer]

1 hour ago, Barry Cartman said:

Can't be bothered seems strong, if he doesn't enjoy watching football or socialising in groups, thats something you should know before you decide to take him half way around the world for 4 weeks 

Something he should have known in advance too? If there’s one individual not making the effort to integrate into the group of course that’s a problem. It alienates that player and also could cause resentment amongst the others that are taking the time to bond.

[outlander]

2 hours ago, Weezer said:

Not something that can be ignored in a World Cup situation though is it? You can't have an individual deciding he can't be bothered to join the rest of the group when he doesn't feel like it, not exactly great for team spirit.

What's the problem with ignoring it? Surely, it will also harm his (and so the team's) spirit if you make him do something he really doesn't. And surely it shouldn't bother the rest if he didn't want to watch football with them.

Like in families, if my wife wants to watch a movie on TV and I want to play a game on a PC, it doesn't make our "team spirit" worse.

Edited December 15, 2022 by outlander

[outlander]

1 hour ago, enigmatic said:

it's probably as good a case as you'll get for refusing a callup to be a squad player

But it's not possible at all. Players will be banned by FIFA. 

At least a number of people told so, when there was a discussion about the possibility of players boycotting the tournament.

[Astafjevs]

2 hours ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

I don't know how unusual this is, but this was his first ever tournament at any level. Never played for the U19s/U-21s.

Wasn't he in the Euro 2020 squad? He should know what it's about by now given how long England were in that tournament for. I know it was pretty much a home competition for them but they would have been staying together in camp, not going home between games

[Rob1981]

Yeah, he was in for Euro 2020. Didn’t even have any clubmates in that squad either because he was still at Brighton at the time.

And as you say... yes it was in England so it’s a bit different. But it’s not like he was going back to his family every night after training. 

[Weezer]

34 minutes ago, outlander said:

What's the problem with ignoring it? Surely, it will also harm his (and so the team's) spirit if you make him do something he really doesn't. And surely it shouldn't bother the rest if he didn't want to watch football with them.

Like in families, if my wife wants to watch a movie on TV and I want to play a game on a PC, it doesn't make our "team spirit" worse.

I would say it’s an issue in a team environment if he’s the only one not participating.

It was obviously a big enough issue that they felt the need to let him go so I doubt it’s as simple as he just didn’t want to watch the football with the rest of the team one night.

[outlander]

9 minutes ago, Weezer said:

I would say it’s an issue in a team environment if he’s the only one not participating.

It was obviously a big enough issue that they felt the need to let him go so I doubt it’s as simple as he just didn’t want to watch the football with the rest of the team one night.

The stories are that they left him go not because he didn't watch football but because of an argument with the coach, which is very different.

We don't know the story. But it could easily be that there was no real issue but a coach, instead of ignoring it, decided to mock him about it and then it escalated.

[Weezer]

33 minutes ago, outlander said:

We don't know the story. But it could easily be that there was no real issue but a coach, instead of ignoring it, decided to mock him about it and then it escalated.

I don’t think this current England team is going to stand for any bullying like that, the coach would be gone before the player in that case.

[enigmatic]

5 hours ago, InigoPatinkin said:

"However, a report emerged on Friday suggesting White had been involved in a disagreement with Holland at a team meeting over a failure to recall data relating to his personal statistics."

What does that even mean?  

It sounds above all like journalists waffling on not a lot more evidence than we have   But there's at least a hint that White was accused of not focusing on non-social stuff that the team were expected to be focused on, and this appears to have ended up in a conversation where White says sorry but he can't because being part of the World Cup squad right now is too difficult for him, rather than promising to try harder next time or arguing that Steve Holland is a jerk and stats questions are silly.

 

4 hours ago, outlander said:

But it's not possible at all. Players will be banned by FIFA. 

At least a number of people told so, when there was a discussion about the possibility of players boycotting the tournament.

A fringe player avoiding being called up in the first place by quietly telling Gareth he doesn't think he can mentally adjust to tournament football is pretty unlikely to get into any trouble.

A player refusing an international callup because his club have told him that club football is more important or to make a political gesture against FIFA's dodgy friends is a bit different.

[Bootador]

5 hours ago, InigoPatinkin said:

"However, a report emerged on Friday suggesting White had been involved in a disagreement with Holland at a team meeting over a failure to recall data relating to his personal statistics."

What does that even mean?  

Sounds like Holland said he was crap at Werewolf, and he had a strop and walked out.

It happens.

[enigmatic]

1 hour ago, InigoPatinkin said:

"However, a report emerged on Friday suggesting White had been involved in a disagreement with Holland at a team meeting over a failure to recall data relating to his personal statistics."

What does that even mean?  

It sounds above all like journalists waffling on not a lot more evidence than we have   But there's at least a hint that White was accused of not focusing on non-social stuff that the team were expected to be focused on, and this appears to have ended up in a conversation where White says sorry but he can't because the World Cup is too difficult for him, rather than promising to try harder next time or arguing that Steve Holland is a jerk and stats quizzes are silly.

 

19 minutes ago, outlander said:

But it's not possible at all. Players will be banned by FIFA. 

At least a number of people told so, when there was a discussion about the possibility of players boycotting the tournament.

A fringe player avoiding being called up in the first place by quietly telling Gareth he doesn't think he can mentally adjust to tournament football is pretty unlikely to get into any trouble.

A player refusing an international callup because his club have told him that club football is more important or to make a political gesture against FIFA's dodgy friends is a bit different.

[Rob1981]

GARETH STAYS \o/\o/

[craigcwwe]

 

 

 

[Haguey]

Fantastic news

[GunmaN1905]

England to get eliminated against first top tier opponent on EURO, haters rejoice.

[skybluedave]

If there was a clear decent replacement I might feel different but it is what it is. 

[Smallen]

Good stuff. Coming home 2024!

Edited December 17, 2022 by Smallen

[Smallen]

That paywall article btw:

Quote

Exclusive: Gareth Southgate to stay as England manager

Coach was left to think about future after defeat to France in World Cup quarter-final

Gareth Southgate has decided to stay as England manager.

The 52-year-old has not yet informed the Football Association but will now remain in charge having reflected on his future throughout this week following the World Cup quarter-final defeat to France.

Southgate returned home on Sunday after the exit and has spoken to friends and family about his future. He had resolved to leave before the World Cup started – even if England won it – believing there was too much negativity around him.

The news that he is staying will come as a huge relief to the FA who have been desperate for Southgate and his assistant Steve Holland to remain and take England to the European Championships in Germany in 2024. Southgate’s current contract runs until the end of that year and he is now determined to fulfil it with the Euros qualifying campaign kicking off away to Italy in March.

Southgate was dismayed by the criticism he faced following England’s disappointing Nations League campaign last summer and in particular the hostility following the 4-0 home defeat at Molineux to Hungary.

He was concerned that the attacks on him were hampering the team and needed to reflect on whether to stay having taken over England in a parlous state in 2016 following the Iceland debacle at the Euros and then Sam Allardyce’s brief time in charge.

Southgate is already the second most successful England manager in history, after Sir Alf Ramsey, and is determined to finally win a trophy again for the first time since 1966.

Southgate's decision means that his last job as England boss won't be consoling Harry Kane after the striker's penalty miss against France Credit: Shaun Botterill /Getty Images

He told the FA that he needed time to reflect on his future but is also acutely aware that he did not want to drag it out given they might have to try and hire a replacement.

Sources suggest he now feels far more positively about staying amid widespread calls in support of him. “The landscape is different to June,” a source said. “The concern was the negativity would inhibit the team and Gareth wasn’t sure staying would be an option.” 

It is understood Southgate now feels differently.

The FA have been considering various scenarios should Southgate have decided to go. But he was also urged to stay by players, led by captain Harry Kane, and has the backing of the squad.

The FA believe that progress was made at the World Cup even though England did not get as far as they did in Russia where they reached the semi-finals or in the European Championships where they lost the final on a penalty shoot-out to Italy.

 

[Darren Moores Mum]

Eurrgh

[skybluedave]

Our next game is Italy away in qualifiers. A good result there will go a long way in settine tone for next campaign

[Darren Moores Mum]

What about a bad result?

[skybluedave]

Then we back to a month a go 

[The_jagster]

Quote

Southgate was dismayed by the criticism he faced following England’s disappointing Nations League campaign last summer and in particular the hostility following the 4-0 home defeat at Molineux to Hungary

In modern England history that is one of our most embarassing results tbf, probably matched only by Iceland as that was in a more important game.

[aggressive minor]

We’re not winning euro 2024, with Gareth. 

[Rob1981]

OFFICIAL

Edited December 18, 2022 by Rob1981

[Rebs]

I'm glad. He deserves to stay imo. We look like we can actually win stuff under him. When I think of some of the dross and ineptitude from previous managers, to even think we'd be better off without him is laughable. 

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

36 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

OFFICIAL

Nothing said then of him by far missing the FA's long-term target to win this year's World Cup?

[Haguey]

That was about 3 FA directors ago tbf.

He has a ton of credit in the bank for 3 competitive tournaments. He's probably 2nd ahead of Sir Bobby now in terms of England managers.

Think the most important thing is we are now an elite nation again going deep into tournaments, and genuinely competitive against the best. And people really get behind the team again.

(lack of realistic alternatives probably helps too)

[Rob1981]

32 minutes ago, Obi-Wan Kenobi said:

Nothing said then of him by far missing the FA's long-term target to win this year's World Cup?

Greg Dyke's target that was scrapped in 2016?

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2662191-englands-target-to-win-2022-world-cup-removed-by-new-fa-chairman-greg-clarke

The last FA strategy had us winning a tournament (mens or womens) by 2024, which I'm pretty sure we've done.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Glad he's staying, hope the FA are planning for what they are going to do in 2024.

[skybluedave]

His contract runs to 6 months after Euros so they can wait till then after Euros at least

[Marc Albrighton]

13 hours ago, ginnybob said:

Eurrgh

Yea i think this just about sums it up.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

13 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Greg Dyke's target that was scrapped in 2016?

Well yeah, I'm such a huge England fan as you know and listen to every bit of news about them.

Good news then it was scrapped. Always thought it was a barmy thing to have, plus just a kiss of death for the manager, and would have been if it kept.

[pearcey_90]

14 hours ago, skybluedave said:

Our next game is Italy away in qualifiers. A good result there will go a long way in settine tone for next campaign

Italy X2 are the only meaningful games we have till the next Euros kicks off. Rest of the teams in the group are poor, then because we got relegated in Nations League, we'll be playing low quality in that.

Hope we just use the campaign to try out players in different positions in the 4-3-3. Need to expand the options of the players that are trusted.

[Weezer]

1 hour ago, pearcey_90 said:

Italy X2 are the only meaningful games we have till the next Euros kicks off. Rest of the teams in the group are poor, then because we got relegated in Nations League, we'll be playing low quality in that.

Hope we just use the campaign to try out players in different positions in the 4-3-3. Need to expand the options of the players that are trusted.

Oh joy. By the end of today's game that will be me back to completely ignoring international football again until the Euros.