NOT SOUTHGATE'S LAST HURRAH: The England 2022 campaign

[Mr Adam]

2 minutes ago, mrbpme said:

I’d take this.

As much as I love Henderson I’d probably have Gallagher in for this one and save Henderson for “shoring things up” with 20 mins to go 

[Rob1981]

3 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

Despite their rubbish games so far I wouldn't fancy our chances against the Dutch tbh, might well be a last 16 KO.

If we’re going to win it, we might as well right all the historical wrongs along the way.

Holland in the R16. Trippier goes the full Koeman ‘93, hauling someone to the floor when they are clean through. Then he dinks in a FK after he should have been sent off.

Then it’s Argentina in the quarters. Foden goes on a mazy run through their entire team, then punches in a second goal with his fist to make sure.

Portugal in the semis. Pickford takes off his gloves and smashes home the winning penalty after Ronaldo has been sent off for stamping on Jude Bellingham’s testicles.

And finally Brazil. They think they’ve won it after Maguire dithers on the ball and presents them with a first half lead. But then we carve them open just before the break, and second half Mason Mount accidentally floats in a free kick from 50 yards out.

Job done.

[bolton1987]

7 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

If we’re going to win it, we might as well right all the historical wrongs along the way.

Holland in the R16. Trippier goes the full Koeman ‘93, hauling someone to the floor when they are clean through. Then he dinks in a FK after he should have been sent off.

Then it’s Argentina in the quarters. Foden goes on a mazy run through their entire team, then punches in a second goal with his fist to make sure.

Portugal in the semis. Pickford takes off his gloves and smashes home the winning penalty after Ronaldo has been sent off for stamping on Jude Bellingham’s testicles.

And finally Brazil. They think they’ve won it after Maguire dithers on the ball and presents them with a first half lead. But then we carve them open just before the break, and second half Mason Mount accidentally floats in a free kick from 50 yards out.

Job done.

Then we leave FIFA.

[Weezer]

28 minutes ago, bolton1987 said:

Then we leave FIFA.

And everybody claps.

[Bootador]

"WE CAN'T PLAY FODEN IN THE MIDDLE, HE DOESN'T PLAY THERE FOR HIS CLUB"

Plays Foden on right (edit removed the youth/u23 games):

Edited November 29, 2022 by Bootador

[skybluedave]

Honestly don't recall ever seeing him playing CM for Man City?

[Bootador]

6 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

Honestly don't recall ever seeing him playing CM for Man City?

They're mostly sub appearances early on in his career. According to transfrmkt:

3350 mins from CM/AM

981 mins from RM/RW

4675 mins from LM/LW

1488 mins from FC

He'll be fine there, but talking about playing players where they play for their club and then playing him in by far his least played position is a very Southgate take.

[Bootador]

Meanwhile Foden has played 45 minutes of international football on the left, but it's a complete mystery why we can't get the best out of him.

[Rob1981]

People so obsessed with a throwaway Southgate comment    It has always been about the squad and the group for him, never about individual players.  Whenever he gets asked a direct question about an individual player, he either shuts it down quickly or just answers it in the most non-committal way possible.

But suddenly it's "Southgate doesn't rate Foden!", even though Foden has started about the same number of games as Mount, Saka, Grealish and the rest.

[Rob1981]

We could always go back to shoehorning our best eleven individual players into the same side, that always worked well.

[The_jagster]

So just say "I prefer the current balance of the team" or some other waffle rather than making up rubbish

[Crispypaul]

Good god.

[Astafjevs]

Got to say that graphic doesn't feel right. Makes it look as if central midfield has been his most frequent position but I don't get that from watching Man City.

[Anthrax Dave]

41 minutes ago, Crispypaul said:

Good god.

That is absolute heresy.

[craigcwwe]

Good result and performance, a combination of the first two games rolled into one there. 

[Rob1981]

Yeah, that turned out alright in the end.  Joint record points haul in a group stage.  Two clean sheets.  Nine goals from midfield.  Only two shots on target from the opposition teams in 200+ minutes.  Everyone getting rotated and getting some match time.  Injured players even getting back up to speed in time for the knockouts.  Even a golden boot contender.

Imagine if he actually knows what he's doing.

[skybluedave]

I don't know. I might be drunk. Maybe I got carried away after Iran. But I think I love Gareth Southgate 

[JD nawrat]

7 hours ago, Rob1981 said:

People so obsessed with a throwaway Southgate comment    It has always been about the squad and the group for him, never about individual players.  Whenever he gets asked a direct question about an individual player, he either shuts it down quickly or just answers it in the most non-committal way possible.

But suddenly it's "Southgate doesn't rate Foden!", even though Foden has started about the same number of games as Mount, Saka, Grealish and the rest.

Kind of the issue though  Foden should be starting as much as Harry Kane/Maguire, not as much as Mason ****in Mount ffs

[Anthrax Dave]

Senegal scares me more than the Dutch, to be honest. Either way, I'm not going to be useful at work on Monday morning.

[Rob1981]

40 minutes ago, JD nawrat said:

Foden should be starting as much as Harry Kane/Maguire, not as much as Mason ****in Mount ffs

Yup, and that takes you back down a road where probably 9-10 players out of 11 end up being the same for every game of the tournament. And the rest of the squad go away from their families for weeks on end knowing they are only going to kick a ball if there is an injury or a suspension somewhere else.

Southgate was an unused substitute for England at two tournaments. It’s shaped his approach to the manager’s job, and his biggest achievement has been changing the mentality around the England setup and building the “club culture”. You’ve basically got Foden, Saka, Rashford, Sterling, Mount, Grealish, Bellingham, Maddison and others... all at top clubs and all wanting to get into the same parts of the pitch. If you want to go deep into a tournament and do seven games in four weeks and keep them all positive and motivated and playing for each other... you have to rotate them a bit and manage your resources in the same way a club manager would.

Nobody is probably saying that Foden isn’t better than Mount. But doesn’t mean Foden has to start every game for England, just like he doesn’t automatically start every game for Man City.

If you want to talk about an England manager wasting talent, go and look at Michael Carrick or Joe Cole or Jamie Carragher. All winning leagues and Champions Leagues at club level, yet barely got a kick at big tournaments because you had managers determined to play the same eleven every game unless their hand was forced. Then years later you find out half the players weren’t even talking to each other and couldn’t wait to get home.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Rob1981

[craigcwwe]

 

 

 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

My gut feeling is that no Mount/Sterling/Saka tonight means they all definitely play on Sunday.

Senegal are a tricky team to face in a knockout match, not feeling massively confident for it.

This does feel like a proper World Cup though, loads of big beasts floating around in the draw. Whoever wins is going to have earnt it.

[skybluedave]

Firstly I don't think Foden was that good tonight. But I've said since last Euros, England wont win anything without him in the team. I literally dont't care if Saka or Rashord or Sterling starts. Or Henderson or Philips or Mount. Or Walker or Trent or Trippier. But Foden is the talent that can lift us to a top level. The team should be built around him and Kane. I love Southgate but he's dropped the ball with Foden and this team. He should have used him more.

But we won group and ready to go for knockouts. We feel strong. Southgate knows these players. So I'm gonna go with the ride

[pearcey_90]

It was a dreadful first half, but at least Gareth was proactive for once and moved Foden away from RW so he could be more influential. 

Will say that 50% of the group game time we have looked clueless with the ball, only caveat we haven’t conceded in that. Still gives me vibes of a winnable big game, us not advantage in 1st half and it’s back to being reactive in 2nd half. 

Should beat Senegal, then the QF is an almighty game for Southgate legacy.

[georginho_juventusygr]

It will be a controversial second-round win, an easy quarter-final win, a semifinal win after extra time.

And Kane will lift the World Cup after penalties.

[WillHoward42]

9 hours ago, Rob1981 said:

Yeah, that turned out alright in the end.  Joint record points haul in a group stage.  Two clean sheets.  Nine goals from midfield.  Only two shots on target from the opposition teams in 200+ minutes.  Everyone getting rotated and getting some match time.  Injured players even getting back up to speed in time for the knockouts.  Even a golden boot contender.

Imagine if he actually knows what he's doing.

I know we can only beat what’s in front of us, but it was only Iran, USA and Wales.

He will answer that question right away if he keeps Mount on the bench.

[kopsy101]

Credit where it's due, group stages always come with their pitfalls and Southgate is really steady when it comes to big tournaments. 

Pressing was on point last night, I actually think that was Englands best performance yet. Foden, Rashford and Henderson should probably stay in, the balance last night was great. I'm not really sure about the right back situation, Walker is brilliant in some situations with his physicality, but Trippier is really sharp and alert. Depends what you want. With TAA's form this season, you'd probably only want him to come on when you're chasing, because he's a game-changer.  

[Weezer]

Think it’s a bit hard to tell where we’re at after last night, we were obviously better than against the US but Wales are absolutely terrible. Only Qatar are worse at this tournament.

[skybluedave]

Won't be playing against Danny Ward every game. 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

30 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Think it’s a bit hard to tell where we’re at after last night, we were obviously better than against the US but Wales are absolutely terrible. Only Qatar are worse at this tournament.

It all feels a bit "Mbappe was just too good" next weekend doesn't it.

[Rob1981]

11 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

It all feels a bit "Mbappe was just too good" next weekend doesn't it.

Just need Poland or Saudi Arabia or Argentina to take him out in the R16

[skybluedave]

Warming Kyle Walker up for him. 

[Pukey]

2 hours ago, pearcey_90 said:

It was a dreadful first half, but at least Gareth was proactive for once and moved Foden away from RW so he could be more influential. 

Will say that 50% of the group game time we have looked clueless with the ball, only caveat we haven’t conceded in that. Still gives me vibes of a winnable big game, us not advantage in 1st half and it’s back to being reactive in 2nd half. 

Should beat Senegal, then the QF is an almighty game for Southgate legacy.

I think that's going way overboard. I'm not gonna say it was good but we were incredibly in control and looked like we were more than happy to pick our moments, which given we weren't desperate for a win was at least understandable. It was a million miles better than anything against the USA.

It seemed we were playing like we knew 1 goal would basically do the job and we didn't need to go gung ho for it. It definitely could have been better in first half but it really wasn't "dreadful." Would have been interesting to see what would have happened if we got to around 70 minutes at 0-0 as I think it was important to get a victory, but yeah it was a game of patience yesterday that we played absolutely fine. We knew Wales would have to come at us at some point and gaps would appear, so there was no need to be sending loads forward and leaving gaps and potentially getting caught. 

[Weezer]

12 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

It all feels a bit "Mbappe was just too good" next weekend doesn't it.

France are always capable of imploding at a major tournament but yeah, somehow I can’t see it being against us so we can only hope somebody takes them out before we get there.

I’m not even that confident we’ll get past Senegal tbh. We absolutely shouldn’t be worried about them but if we play like we did against the US or half of Wales we could easily come unstuck.

[skybluedave]

4 minutes ago, Pukey said:

I think that's going way overboard. I'm not gonna say it was good but we were incredibly in control and looked like we were more than happy to pick our moments, which given we weren't desperate for a win was at least understandable. It was a million miles better than anything against the USA.

It seemed we were playing like we knew 1 goal would basically do the job and we didn't need to go gung ho for it. It definitely could have been better in first half but it really wasn't "dreadful." Would have been interesting to see what would have happened if we got to around 70 minutes at 0-0 as I think it was important to get a victory, but yeah it was a game of patience yesterday that we played absolutely fine. We knew Wales would have to come at us at some point and gaps would appear, so there was no need to be sending loads forward and leaving gaps and potentially getting caught. 

Yeah, agreed. First half was much improved from US game. Compare a 0-0 half from that game and quite a bit different. US we just passed it back and forth between our centre backs. Wales game we actually passed it about in their half. Pressed a lot better too

I think the US are actually pretty decent though. I think they might surprise and knock out Holland 

[Peter G]

Are we allowed to celebrate last nights win?

"It's only Iran"

"It's only Wales"

I expect that to become "it's only Senegal"

[skybluedave]

2 minutes ago, Peter G said:

Are we allowed to celebrate last nights win?

"It's only Iran"

"It's only Wales"

I expect that to become "it's only Senegal"

And if we knock out France, it's the worse French team of all time

[Pukey]

29 minutes ago, Weezer said:

France are always capable of imploding at a major tournament but yeah, somehow I can’t see it being against us so we can only hope somebody takes them out before we get there.

I’m not even that confident we’ll get past Senegal tbh. We absolutely shouldn’t be worried about them but if we play like we did against the US or half of Wales we could easily come unstuck.

I find it very difficult to gauge how good Senegal are. Qatar are absolute garbage. They looked ok against a pretty ordinary looking Netherlands, and put in a good performance against Ecaudor without being amazing or anything. They're tricky but we should be beating them really.

[Astafjevs]

A Senegal with Mané might be an issue, but I don't think England should be having any problems based on their performances so far. Mobile team but they clearly lack quality. It won't be a stroll like Iran or Wales, but the job should be done in 90 mins 

[Constantine]

28 minutes ago, Peter G said:

Are we allowed to celebrate last nights win?

"It's only Iran"

"It's only Wales"

I expect that to become "it's only Senegal"

Well, you're yet to face a proper team in the knockouts. You've had ridiculous streak of luck in draws in last few years...

[GunmaN1905]

33 minutes ago, Peter G said:

Are we allowed to celebrate last nights win?

"It's only Iran"

"It's only Wales"

I expect that to become "it's only Senegal"

How many players from other 3 teams in the group would've even made England 26 player list?

[The_jagster]

Difficult to tell as the Senegal group wasn't that strong, a bit like ours. They don't look rubbish but I have only seen their full match against The Netherlands. In other words, Southgate will be wary but I'd still expect a normal time victory. Gueye being suspended is also a help.

[Weezer]

22 minutes ago, Pukey said:

I find it very difficult to gauge how good Senegal are. Qatar are absolute garbage. They looked ok against a pretty ordinary looking Netherlands, and put in a good performance against Ecaudor without being amazing or anything. They're tricky but we should be beating them really.

I don’t think they’re anything special, but attacking wise they’re far more potent than anything we’ve faced so far.

That said, if you’re worried about playing Senegal then you shouldn’t be entertaining any idea of getting to the latter stages of a World Cup.

[Haguey]

Yeah Senegal have no Mane, they're hugely blunted. Reckon the Yanks are probably better. Should be a routine win.

[Rob1981]

1 hour ago, Peter G said:

Are we allowed to celebrate last nights win?

It's like the seven stages of grief

"It was only Wales and Iran!"
"He didn't even play Foden for every minute of every game, the twit!"
"Every run you've had has been really easy so none of it counts!"
"How many of their players would get into England's team?"
"All these teams you've played have been rubbish!"

And then finally acceptance.  "Meh, France will thrash you anyway".

[The_jagster]

I think we have a chance if we face France, just a matter of who actually scores their set piece.

[Rob1981]

I am not confident we will beat France, obviously. But if we lose narrowly to perhaps the best team in the tournament it doesn’t mean the Southgate haters were right all along.

[Smallen]

We are better than France

[Smallen]

Best team in the tournament to be honest

[Baptista_8]

1 hour ago, skybluedave said:

And if we knock out France, it's the worse French team of all time

Literally no-one will say that though. If we beat France, and it's a well deserved victory, he'd get plenty of praise for it.