Arteta’s Arsenal recreation

[CKBrahMa]

NEW THREAD AT page 3 : recreating since the winter update CLICK HERE !
 

Hi everyone !

First of all, I want to thank :

- BTN for all his videos, especially his one on FM23 recreating the tactic (you’ll see that I differ from him on some point) ;

- RDF tactic, especially for his video on Winger-A on opposite foot (which we’ll use for Saka) ;

- Football Made Simple for breaking down the current Gunner’s tactic.

 

To my understanding, the 11 players on the pitch can be separated in 2 groups :

- The front 5 (Martinelli, Xhaka, Gabriel Jesus, Ødegaard and Saka) ;

- the build-up 6 (Zinchenko, Gabriel M., Saliba, White, Ramsdale and Partey).

 

The front 5

Very much like Man. City, Arsenal tries to occupy all the 5 channels, this way :

- Left flank with Martinelli or Xhaka ;

- Left Half-space (HS) with Martinelli, Xhaka or Gabriel Jesus ;

- Center with Gabriel Jesus and Ødegaard (and, in a way T. Partey) ;

- Right HS with Ødegaard and Saka ;

- Right Flank with Saka (and, depending on the opponent, White can overlap).

We can already see that : 1. The left side is much more fluid than the right one (e.g. in the game against Chelsea, we could see Martinelli in the Center, like where Partey should stand) and 2. The left side relies on only 2 players, maybe 2 of the top 3 of the front 5, 3. except for the occasion where White Overlap, Saka is alone to manage the right flank.

For the left side, I took what BTN did :

- Martinelli : IW-s with roam from position. I might add « dribble more » as it is his way to make a difference ;

- Xhaka : Mezz-s. However, in FM, he may lack of pace to really run in the space. I may add roam from position, but he may drop too deep. Is there a way to « automatically » switch players from position (like Xhaka becoming the winger and Martinelli the Mezz ? I remember downloading a tactic in a previous FM where the wingers switch position time to time). If it’s possible, I may put Martinelli on W-s ;

- Gabriel Jesus : a F9 of course. I may switch him to a Trequartista if he seems to drop too deep.

For the right side, I differ a bit from BTN :

- Ødegaard : currently a Mezz-a, I may switch him to AP-a (especially if Partey is overwhelmed in the midfield, see below). I feel that Mezz-a put Ødegaard to much as a finisher which he is not ;

- Saka : a W-a, definitely, for various reason. 1. IRL, Saka very much play like a FM Winger-a, and not like a IF-a 2. Due to the ME, it occurs that the Mezz-a and If-a stand in the same area/attack the same space 3. In FM, Saka is quite a great crosser, at least a better crosser than finisher, 4. Shoutout to RDF tactic for his Winger-a on wrong foot video : it works like a charm, 5. In my « Ødegaard false 9 » topic, I did use Saka as a Winger-s, and even though his rating were not great, he was still crucial for the tactic

However, I’m worried about point 2. As a wrong-foot W-a will receive the ball on the HS, like the Mezz-a. Do you think it can be a problem and/or what are your though on that ?

I would say that it could be a problem but it won’t for one reason : Ødegaard has PPM « Comes deep to get the ball », which means he will be in the same HS as Saka, but lower. Am I right ?

The build up 6

This is where I differ from BTN. While he’s offering a IW-s BPD-D CB-d WB-s, I choose more flexibility depending on the opponents composition. Indeed, Arsenal builds differently depending if they’re facing :

- 2 ST (or 1 ST with an agressive AMC) pairing with a double pivot, like a 442, 4231 ;

- 1 ST with 3 midfielders, like a 433 or a 343

- 2 ST with 3 midfielders, like a 352.

- One special case : facing a front 4

Arteta’s idea during the build-up is to get the control of midfield without taking too much risks at the back.

In real life, Arsenal would build up like that :

- To counter the 2 ST, Ben White will stay down, like a third CB. Having only 2 midfielders, we only need Zinchenko to help Partey. To create numerical superiority, 2 options : Gabriel M. comes forward, breaking the line and creating a 3 against 2 OR Ødegaard comes deeper to collect the ball. So, option 1 : IWB-s BPD-d CB-C FB-s (with « Run on flank* » as a PI). I add « Overlap right » on TI’s as it reflects how Arsenal plays IRL ;

- To counter 1 ST with 3 CM, we don’t need White to control the lone ST, so he became a IW-s. To create superiority, either Gabriel M. comes (BPD-d), Ødegaard comes deeper OR Gabriel Jesus comes deep (creating a 4 against 3). IWB-s BPD-d CB-c IWB-s

- To counter 2 ST with 3 CM, we both need White staying lower and Ødegaard or Jesus to come deeper. So I mix the 2 options : White as a FB-s with PI and TI suggested, Ødegaard becoming an AP-a (as he will come deeper more often than a Mezz-a) and Gabriel Jesus coming deep too. In this case, Saka can become an IF-a ;

- the case of the front 4. It was the case against Liverpool IRL. You can’t outnumber them with the same idea without getting outnumbered (4 against your back 4. Partey has 2 CM on him. If both Xhaka and Ødegaard come deeper, you’re 3 against 5 upfront, meaning you have very poor chance to score. 
Solution : this is where Ramsdale becomes important. 1. As a sweeper keeper, he will be a passing option for your CB and 2. Due to his passing skills, he can aim for your front 5.

 

Thanks for reading this post ! Feel free to give your opinion or advice !

Screens and TI’s will come later, but you have the general idea as TI’s are no revolution here (classic Tiki-Taka)

Edited March 12, 2023 by CKBrahMa

[CKBrahMa]

Oh, ****, RDF just posted a video replicating Arteta’s tactic.

I will take a look at it and maybe say if I’m ok or not.

[Fantasista10]

Really good write up. I like your take on the system and how it is flexible depending on the opponent. You proposed some interesting solutions here. 

As an Arsenal fan myself I’m loving how we’re playing under Arteta at the moment and have been trying to replicate this in FM as well. 
 

My biggest issue is getting the Martinelli and Saka roles to work in conjunction with the Xhaka and Odegaard (MEZ) roles. In the new ME they have made the Winger role hold the width better (finally!) and attack minded CM roles (like a MEZ) push up higher in build up - which is also great. 
 

However the problem is, as you mentioned, an IF and even IW in my tests with a similar tactic, basically hold hands with the MEZ. Only the Winger role holds the width properly and occupies the left / right flank. You basically end up with two players in each half space otherwise, and nobody really stretching the pitch - which goes against the core principles of positional play. 
 

Have you tested this over a few games? Interested to see if you can get it to work without having both wide players as Wingers.
 

 

[CKBrahMa]

il y a 9 minutes, Fantasista10 a dit :

Really good write up. I like your take on the system and how it is flexible depending on the opponent. You proposed some interesting solutions here. 

As an Arsenal fan myself I’m loving how we’re playing under Arteta at the moment and have been trying to replicate this in FM as well. 
 

My biggest issue is getting the Martinelli and Saka roles to work in conjunction with the Xhaka and Odegaard (MEZ) roles. In the new ME they have made the Winger role hold the width better (finally!) and attack minded CM roles (like a MEZ) push up higher in build up - which is also great. 
 

However the problem is, as you mentioned, an IF and even IW in my tests with a similar tactic, basically hold hands with the MEZ. Only the Winger role holds the width properly and occupies the left / right flank. You basically end up with two players in each half space otherwise, and nobody really stretching the pitch - which goes against the core principles of positional play. 
 

Have you tested this over a few games? Interested to see if you can get it to work without having both wide players as Wingers.
 

 

Thanks for your feedback !

Concerning the IF/IW and Mezz, it appears that IW-s tends to keep the width a lot more than before (on my beta save with Monaco, my WB and IW tend to be on the same spot). So it might work I guess 

 

I just tested it against the U21 as I only play one game (As I said, don’t have my computer right now). I would put results.

[feche]

I think Saka is playing as an Advanced Playmaker on Attack. He seems to lost half a step and is relying more on his intelligence.
White is a Fullback on Support, maybe with Get further forward.
Xhaka is a tricky one, but maybe CM-Attack?

[CKBrahMa]

il y a 6 minutes, feche a dit :

 

I think Saka is playing as an Advanced Playmaker on Attack

 

Saka is, according to FM, a physical player (even if he has great mental attributes). Futhermore, we need someone making the runs : he’s the one !

Depending on the formation, White can be an IWB-s. Tbf, it is true that it was Tomi and not White playing like this (I think he was injured).

No need to have 3 man (+ Ramsdale) to manage a lone ST(c).

When he’s a FB-s, he’s not getting further forward (because it is when the team has the ball, not him) as he helps the team to build-up from the back.

However, he does run down the flanks and overlap time to time.

I do agree Xhaka is tricky. However, he’s support without a doubt, not attack ! I do think that his role don’t really exists in FM. He’s like a Mezz that goes way wider if Martinelli comes in, or high up the pitch if Martinelli holds the ball. This is why I would like to know how to switch position between players (so he could be both a Mezz or a Winger depending on Martinelli positioning)

 

 

[thefmveteran86]

3 hours ago, CKBrahMa said:

Currently, I don’t have my computer, pictures will come
 

Hi everyone !

First of all, I want to thank :

- BTN for all his videos, especially his one on FM23 recreating the tactic (you’ll see that I differ from him on some point) ;

- RDF tactic, especially for his video on Winger-A on opposite foot (which we’ll use for Saka) ;

- Football Made Simple for breaking down the current Gunner’s tactic.

 

To my understanding, the 11 players on the pitch can be separated in 2 groups :

- The front 5 (Martinelli, Xhaka, Gabriel Jesus, Ødegaard and Saka) ;

- the build-up 6 (Zinchenko, Gabriel M., Saliba, White, Ramsdale and Partey).

 

The front 5

Very much like Man. City, Arsenal tries to occupy all the 5 channels, this way :

- Left flank with Martinelli or Xhaka ;

- Left Half-space (HS) with Martinelli, Xhaka or Gabriel Jesus ;

- Center with Gabriel Jesus and Ødegaard (and, in a way T. Partey) ;

- Right HS with Ødegaard and Saka ;

- Right Flank with Saka (and, depending on the opponent, White can overlap).

We can already see that : 1. The left side is much more fluid than the right one (e.g. in the game against Chelsea, we could see Martinelli in the Center, like where Partey should stand) and 2. The left side relies on only 2 players, maybe 2 of the top 3 of the front 5, 3. except for the occasion where White Overlap, Saka is alone to manage the right flank.

For the left side, I took what BTN did :

- Martinelli : IW-s with roam from position. I might add « dribble more » as it is his way to make a difference ;

- Xhaka : Mezz-s. However, in FM, he may lack of pace to really run in the space. I may add roam from position, but he may drop too deep. Is there a way to « automatically » switch players from position (like Xhaka becoming the winger and Martinelli the Mezz ? I remember downloading a tactic in a previous FM where the wingers switch position time to time). If it’s possible, I may put Martinelli on W-s ;

- Gabriel Jesus : a F9 of course. I may switch him to a Trequartista if he seems to drop too deep.

For the right side, I differ a bit from BTN :

- Ødegaard : currently a Mezz-a, I may switch him to AP-a (especially if Partey is overwhelmed in the midfield, see below). I feel that Mezz-a put Ødegaard to much as a finisher which he is not ;

- Saka : a W-a, definitely, for various reason. 1. IRL, Saka very much play like a FM Winger-a, and not like a IF-a 2. Due to the ME, it occurs that the Mezz-a and If-a stand in the same area/attack the same space 3. In FM, Saka is quite a great crosser, at least a better crosser than finisher, 4. Shoutout to RDF tactic for his Winger-a on wrong foot video : it works like a charm, 5. In my « Ødegaard false 9 » topic, I did use Saka as a Winger-s, and even though his rating were not great, he was still crucial for the tactic

However, I’m worried about point 2. As a wrong-foot W-a will receive the ball on the HS, like the Mezz-a. Do you think it can be a problem and/or what are your though on that ?

I would say that it could be a problem but it won’t for one reason : Ødegaard has PPM « Comes deep to get the ball », which means he will be in the same HS as Saka, but lower. Am I right ?

The build up 6

This is where I differ from BTN. While he’s offering a IW-s BPD-D CB-d WB-s, I choose more flexibility depending on the opponents composition. Indeed, Arsenal builds differently depending if they’re facing :

- 2 ST (or 1 ST with an agressive AMC) pairing with a double pivot, like a 442, 4231 ;

- 1 ST with 3 midfielders, like a 433 or a 343

- 2 ST with 3 midfielders, like a 352.

- One special case : facing a front 4

Arteta’s idea during the build-up is to get the control of midfield without taking too much risks at the back.

In real life, Arsenal would build up like that :

- To counter the 2 ST, Ben White will stay down, like a third CB. Having only 2 midfielders, we only need Zinchenko to help Partey. To create numerical superiority, 2 options : Gabriel M. comes forward, breaking the line and creating a 3 against 2 OR Ødegaard comes deeper to collect the ball. So, option 1 : IWB-s BPD-d CB-C FB-s (with « Run on flank* » as a PI). I add « Overlap right » on TI’s as it reflects how Arsenal plays IRL ;

- To counter 1 ST with 3 CM, we don’t need White to control the lone ST, so he became a IW-s. To create superiority, either Gabriel M. comes (BPD-d), Ødegaard comes deeper OR Gabriel Jesus comes deep (creating a 4 against 3). IWB-s BPD-d CB-c IWB-s

- To counter 2 ST with 3 CM, we both need White staying lower and Ødegaard or Jesus to come deeper. So I mix the 2 options : White as a FB-s with PI and TI suggested, Ødegaard becoming an AP-a (as he will come deeper more often than a Mezz-a) and Gabriel Jesus coming deep too. In this case, Saka can become an IF-a ;

- the case of the front 4. It was the case against Liverpool IRL. You can’t outnumber them with the same idea without getting outnumbered (4 against your back 4. Partey has 2 CM on him. If both Xhaka and Ødegaard come deeper, you’re 3 against 5 upfront, meaning you have very poor chance to score. 
Solution : this is where Ramsdale becomes important. 1. As a sweeper keeper, he will be a passing option for your CB and 2. Due to his passing skills, he can aim for your front 5.

 

Thanks for reading this post ! Feel free to give your opinion or advice !

Screens and TI’s will come later, but you have the general idea as TI’s are no revolution here (classic Tiki-Taka)

Never in a million years I would be able to come up with a formula with a tactic like this 

[CKBrahMa]

il y a 1 minute, thefmveteran86 a dit :

Never in a million years I would be able to come up with a formula with a tactic like this 

Why do you say that ?

[thefmveteran86]

2 minutes ago, CKBrahMa said:

Why do you say that ?

Say that as I'm not tactics expert yet you are 

[CKBrahMa]

à l’instant, thefmveteran86 a dit :

Say that as I'm not tactics expert yet you are 

I’m not, otherwise I wouldn’t ask so many question in my post.

Furthermore, I pretty much try to recreate Arsenal IRL : so Arteta is the expert haha.

 

[feche]

hace 32 minutos, CKBrahMa dijo:

Saka is, according to FM, a physical player (even if he has great mental attributes). Futhermore, we need someone making the runs : he’s the one !

Depending on the formation, White can be an IWB-s. Tbf, it is true that it was Tomi and not White playing like this (I think he was injured).

No need to have 3 man (+ Ramsdale) to manage a lone ST(c).

When he’s a FB-s, he’s not getting further forward (because it is when the team has the ball, not him) as he helps the team to build-up from the back.

However, he does run down the flanks and overlap time to time.

I do agree Xhaka is tricky. However, he’s support without a doubt, not attack ! I do think that his role don’t really exists in FM. He’s like a Mezz that goes way wider if Martinelli comes in, or high up the pitch if Martinelli holds the ball. This is why I would like to know how to switch position between players (so he could be both a Mezz or a Winger depending on Martinelli positioning)

 

 

Forget what FM says. Saka starts wide and distribute the ball as playmakers do. Is a new role for him but he's doing it well  despite the lack of runners near him. And yes, you need runners in the team, but that's not his main job to do.

I don't think White is a IW, really, he's not Zinchenko at all, he stays wide, overlaps sometimes but he remains at the back. At most, you can give him the PI to come to the middle.

The CM-A role does exactly that. It says that "the Central Midfielder will more readily surge  into the final third to support the forwards in and around the box".  And then, his attributes and PPM will do the rest,


I want to add that I'm not trying to antagonize you in any form, I want to recreate Arteta's tactic too and do it the most accurate possible and I'm using the thoughts of NoNewThing on twitter to came with an better idea how Arsenal operates and translate it to FM.

 

[CKBrahMa]

il y a 51 minutes, feche a dit :

Forget what FM says. Saka starts wide and distribute the ball as playmakers do. Is a new role for him but he's doing it well  despite the lack of runners near him. And yes, you need runners in the team, but that's not his main job to do.

I don't think White is a IW, really, he's not Zinchenko at all, he stays wide, overlaps sometimes but he remains at the back. At most, you can give him the PI to come to the middle.

The CM-A role does exactly that. It says that "the Central Midfielder will more readily surge  into the final third to support the forwards in and around the box".  And then, his attributes and PPM will do the rest,


I want to add that I'm not trying to antagonize you in any form, I want to recreate Arteta's tactic too and do it the most accurate possible and I'm using the thoughts of NoNewThing on twitter to came with an better idea how Arsenal operates and translate it to FM.

 

Don’t worry haha, I don’t feel antagonize ! 

Btw, I’m not native English speaker so sorry if my answers feel cold or mean.

For Saka, we can’t totally put aside that he is a physical player before being a playmaker (both in FM and IRL). Furthermore, playing him as AP-a will create problems :

- in FM, the AP-a on the wing tend to operate in the HS. In our case, he will do exactly what Ødegaard is doing (while IRL, when Saka « is the playmaker », Ødegaard will run into space). I get your point for Saka, but IRL is more fluid than FM. I think the best compromise would be playing him as an IW-a or -s (they’re pretty much the middle between AP and IF)

For White, the thing is that he did not play IWB because he was used in a setup where you needed a FB. When we had 2 IWB, it was indeed Tomi playing. The future will tell us if Arteta is going to play him as a 2nd IWB. I do agree that he’s less creative than Zinchenko but I’m confident that he can be IWB

For Xhaka, CM-a won’t let him be as wide as he can be

[WhyMe]

I haven't got FM23 yet, but I was thinking about an Arteta replication when I do as well.  I like your ideas, but just to play devil's advocate on a few roles.

Completely agree that Jesus is a support role, but his key contribution has been leading Arsenal's press, have you considered a customised PF-s, i.e. add some PIs to make him roam, dribble and be a bit more creative?  He wouldn't drop as deep in this role as he would as an F9, which is probably close to how he actually plays ILR, he is definitely not a TQ

Martinelli so far has 5 goals and 2 assists and tends to get into scoring positions far more than trying to be creative.  I would say that is at least IF-s, rather than IW-s.  You could also make a strong case for an attack duty (either IW-a or IF-a), potentially with a stay wider and roam PIs on all counts, to reflect the interchanging of position and Xhaka's movement.

I like the idea of Saka as a wrong foot winger-a, though IW-a would probably also be a reasonable description of what he is currently doing for Arsenal.  I would agree that Ben White is more a FB-s with PIs to make him a bit more aggressive than a WB-s, but if it works in game *shrug*.

Odegaard I like as either AP-a or Mezz-a, my inclination would be if you did make Martinelli into an attack duty then Odegaard would do well as an AP with a stay wider PI (to reflect the fact he tends to get close to Saka).  I think in reality he is more AP-a than Mezz, but you have to be practical for what works in game

Edited November 9, 2022 by WhyMe
forgot something

[Cam NBH]

I have Martinelli as IF/A as he needs to be one of, or even, the main goalscorer. I have Saka as IW/S. Both fbs on IWB/S to make the 3 shape with Partey. Odegaard on CM/A and Xhaka on CM/S, Jesus I have on either PF/A or even AF/A but that doesnt do his IRL role.

 

Interesting read though and good ideas!

[feche]

Gabriel Jesús is a Complete Forward on Support for me. He does a bit of everything, really. He drops deep, moves into channels, lead the press and fight against cbs as a target man would do. No need to limit him with an specified role.

I don't see Odegaard as a playmaker, really. He operates finding space but really isn't the main focus of the team when having the ball.

[The3points]

Perhaps Xhaka could be CM with move into channels? 

I like the way you've done it so far, this would be my choices with the roles. Personally I'd do a starting 4-2-3-1 to match the team's defensive shape.

GK: SK-S

LB: IWB-S (Zinchenko) or FB-S sit narrower+cut inside with ball (Tomiyasu or Tierney).

CBs: BPD CD

FB-S (Maybe with get further forward, Overlap against back 5 teams)

DLP-D (If doing 4-3-3 DM-D works well)

CM-S Move into channels Get Further Forward Roam

AP-S Move into channels

2 IW-As (stay wider)

Finally CF-S upfront

Edited November 9, 2022 by The3points

[The3points]

1 hour ago, feche said:

Gabriel Jesús is a Complete Forward on Support for me. He does a bit of everything, really. He drops deep, moves into channels, lead the press and fight against cbs as a target man would do. No need to limit him with an specified role.

I don't see Odegaard as a playmaker, really. He operates finding space but really isn't the main focus of the team when having the ball.

I think that's true in a sense, but it depends against opposition. Against Fulham for example, every possession went through him because Partey was out. If you'd want that type of football to be replicated you'd give him AP in a 4-3-3. AM/AP in a 4-2-3-1 probably is the most realistic though as AP in 4-2-3-1 doesn't get involved too much in buildup

[Ivan787]

For Xhaka try BBM with pi of stay wide and run wide with ball.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Ivan787

[w_x]

I don't think this gives you Odegaard on the right linking up with Saka though

[CKBrahMa]

Il y a 3 heures, WhyMe a dit :

Martinelli so far has 5 goals and 2 assists and tends to get into scoring positions far more than trying to be creative.  I would say that is at least IF-s, rather than IW-s.  You could also make a strong case for an attack duty (either IW-a or IF-a), potentially with a stay wider and roam PIs on all counts, to reflect the interchanging of position and Xhaka's movement.

You can be a goal threat without having an attack duty. Arsenal (like City before Haaland) doesn't have a strong stricker with all the goals. IW-s is what is the closest to his style of play IRL, imo.

 

Il y a 3 heures, Cam NBH a dit :

I have Martinelli as IF/A as he needs to be one of, or even, the main goalscorer.

He doesn't need to. Look at this stats : all the front 5 has 4 or 5 goals. There is not a main goal scorer.

Il y a 2 heures, feche a dit :

Gabriel Jesús is a Complete Forward on Support for me. He does a bit of everything, really. He drops deep, moves into channels, lead the press and fight against cbs as a target man would do. No need to limit him with an specified role.

I don't see Odegaard as a playmaker, really. He operates finding space but really isn't the main focus of the team when having the ball.

Tbf, I totally agree for IRL. But for the game, I fear he lacks of jumping reach (10) and strengh (13).

[_mxrky]

I made this recreation in fm 21. 442 of the ball, 23,35/325 on the ball depending on the opponents shape 

Let's just say it was pretty dominant. I didn't lose a single game all season in all comps:

 

Edited November 9, 2022 by _mxrky

[Cam NBH]

59 minutes ago, CKBrahMa said:

He doesn't need to. Look at this stats : all the front 5 has 4 or 5 goals. There is not a main goal scorer.

Yeah thats fair. I think I am probably not trying to get as close to real life as you are. I meant I like to have 1 or 2 goalscorers in my FM teams. Totally appreciate that you are looking to go as close to irl as possible though. I will follow with interest anyway.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Cam NBH

[_mxrky]

Disagree on Jesus being a support role.  Sure he drops deep and links the play but he’s still the spearhead and you cant really recreate the number of chances he gets irl in fm if you make him a support role. He’s already missed the most big chances in europe. That can’t be achieved on a support role (at least to my knowledge).

I think dlf- attack, cf attack or even pressing forward on attack is suitable.

[Johnny Ace]

3 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

I think dlf- attack, cf attack or even pressing forward on attack is suitable.

CF(A) is the role I used for Jesus, purely because he's here there and everywhere along the frontline 

[Fantasista10]

7 hours ago, feche said:

Forget what FM says. Saka starts wide and distribute the ball as playmakers do. Is a new role for him but he's doing it well  despite the lack of runners near him. And yes, you need runners in the team, but that's not his main job to do.

Whilst I agree with the rest of your comments, I really don’t see Saka as a playmaker. Yes, he is creative, but he’s certainly not a playmaker in my eyes. In my opinion he is a modern wide player, which you will typically find in most positional play systems. They start wide, stretching the pitch, often on the opposite flank to their preferred foot, allowing them to receive the ball facing the half space/rest of the field. Much like Mahrez, Grealish, Sterling - or to look abroad, Napoli’s new star, Kvaratshkelia.

Saka is very fixed in his position, which for me is an indication of a non playmaking role. Yes he makes runs in behind, or can drop to receive the ball, but he does this almost always on the right flank, hugging the touchline. 

Personally I wouldn’t assign anyone a playmaker role in this Arsenal side - much like Man City. You could argue in both teams that the closest to a playmaker in those sides are Odegaard and De Bruyne based on how they like to come deep to receive the ball at times, but they are both part of a larger collective rather than the main focal points to an attack. For me, Saka is also part of that - he is not a ball magnet or the chief creator at Arsenal. 
 

[Fantasista10]

Away from my laptop right now but have had another stab at creating this in FM23 after being inspired by this thread. Currently managing Sporting Lisbon. 

I chose a Winger on Attack for the Saka role, but using a left footed player with traits to cut inside from the right. This gives it a good balance of stretching the field whilst having some unpredictability. It worked a treat, using Trincao, he got 3 assists and a goal in one game! 
 

Next to him, is the Odegaard role which I chose MEZ on Support as I don’t think he has enough penetration or attacking runs to warrant an Attack duty - plus they move high enough on support in the new ME now. 
 

For Xhaka you could also go for MEZ on Support but a BBM works with instructions to stay wider and get forward.
 

For the Martinelli role I have alternated with an IF(A) or IW(A). You could easily drop this to support but when watching Gabi play, he is Arsenal’s most threatening player when it comes to runs in behind. Just look at how he has destroyed Trent and Emerson Royal this season alone. 
 

For Jesus I chose a DLF(A) but purely because I don’t have a player for the CF(A) role - but I was happy with the movement. My striker got a hat trick in this role. 
 

IWB(S), two BPDs and then a WB(S) make up the back line. I would have chose a FB(S) for more realism in the White role but Pedro Porro is wasted as a standard full back! 

[markoconnell]

I've been waiting for FM23 to try and take a shot at replicating Arteta. Of course, huge Arsenal fan and have been watching, reading and learning the team's setup.

Anyway, I've only played one game on full match so I wouldn't say my plan is set. However, I've seen enough to make decisions on the player roles. Ultimately, I feel that is the key part on replicating the style of football they play besides the usual high press, trigger press opposition's backline with high defensive line, tight mark hard tackle the middle and show their fullbacks inside.

I saw BTN's video on it although I agree in some parts (like the above) I haven't seen the IW and IF with stay wider holding the width even on Very Wide team setting. In fact, most of what has been said here is true about Mez occupying the same space as the IF. So, I came up with the roles below.

SK (d) - Rambo
WB (s) - White/Tomi/Cedric
DC (d) - Saliba
BPD (d) - Gabby
IWB (s) - Zinchenko
DM (s) - Thomas
MCR (a) - Odegaard
BBM (s) - Xhaka
IW (a) - Saka
IF (s) - Martinelli
F9 (s) - Jesus

In my mind, I'm trying to have the fluid movements and rotations in the left side of the pitch before the switch over to Saka with his 1v1 and White supporting, then everyone arrives in late in the box. Our fullbacks with Xhaka/Odegaard tight mark and hard tackle as we force them inside. I decided an MC (a) with Moves Into Channels, Dribble More and Roam From Position over the usual Mez (a) as they are little too wide. Martin only goes on the outside if White and Saka inverts. As only Saka is inverting while White provides the width near the box, makes much more sense for Odegaard not to go wide too often and combine. Still need to see more games on this though.

Jesus on F9 is useful as he will overload the middle but I added Roam From Position trying to replicate the movements he has with Martinelli whose also on Roam From Position. Xhaka on BBM only feels natural attribute-wise but I've yet to see the difference between that and the Mez (s).

To be perfectly honest, with the match engine, I think we can only go as far as replicating one side of Arteta's style of play. I've been toying with the idea of their 4231 into a 442 when defending while also having the 235 positional play structure but I think it's difficult. Also the fact that Arteta always have Saka/Martinelli man marking/pressing the opposition's centerbacks and White/Zinchenko push up on their fullbacks while Odegaard marks their pivot with Thomas/Arteta stepping up in a flat two man marking.

Edited November 10, 2022 by markoconnell

[_mxrky]

5 hours ago, markoconnell said:

I've been waiting for FM23 to try and take a shot at replicating Arteta. Of course, huge Arsenal fan and have been watching, reading and learning the team's setup.

Anyway, I've only played one game on full match so I wouldn't say my plan is set. However, I've seen enough to make decisions on the player roles. Ultimately, I feel that is the key part on replicating the style of football they play besides the usual high press, trigger press opposition's backline with high defensive line, tight mark hard tackle the middle and show their fullbacks inside.

I saw BTN's video on it although I agree in some parts (like the above) I haven't seen the IW and IF with stay wider holding the width even on Very Wide team setting. In fact, most of what has been said here is true about Mez occupying the same space as the IF. So, I came up with the roles below.

SK (d) - Rambo
WB (s) - White/Tomi/Cedric
DC (d) - Saliba
BPD (d) - Gabby
IWB (s) - Zinchenko
DM (s) - Thomas
MCR (a) - Odegaard
BBM (s) - Xhaka
IW (a) - Saka
IF (s) - Martinelli
F9 (s) - Jesus

In my mind, I'm trying to have the fluid movements and rotations in the left side of the pitch before the switch over to Saka with his 1v1 and White supporting, then everyone arrives in late in the box. Our fullbacks with Xhaka/Odegaard tight mark and hard tackle as we force them inside. I decided an MC (a) with Moves Into Channels, Dribble More and Roam From Position over the usual Mez (a) as they are little too wide. Martin only goes on the outside if White and Saka inverts. As only Saka is inverting while White provides the width near the box, makes much more sense for Odegaard not to go wide too often and combine. Still need to see more games on this though.

Jesus on F9 is useful as he will overload the middle but I added Roam From Position trying to replicate the movements he has with Martinelli whose also on Roam From Position. Xhaka on BBM only feels natural attribute-wise but I've yet to see the difference between that and the Mez (s).

To be perfectly honest, with the match engine, I think we can only go as far as replicating one side of Arteta's style of play. I've been toying with the idea of their 4231 into a 442 when defending while also having the 235 positional play structure but I think it's difficult. Also the fact that Arteta always have Saka/Martinelli man marking/pressing the opposition's centerbacks and White/Zinchenko push up on their fullbacks while Odegaard marks their pivot with Thomas/Arteta stepping up in a flat two man marking.

Agreed the hard part of an Arteta recreation is replicating the 442 press off the ball. I’ve used shadow striker in the past to get that 442 press and maintain the 235 shape on the ball. Worked will but the shadow striker is too aggressive of a role to replicate what odegaard  does. Thats why I think an asymmetric 4231/433 is best way to get a true replication. We don’t really play a 433 like the way it plays out in fm.

[CKBrahMa]

Hi !

Yesterday evening, I did try my tactic for the first friendly (againdt LA Galaxy). And... It wasa total disaster haha.

I played it 3 times (the only time I save scum because I want to put my understanding in the ME) : 1 Draw (3-3), 1 L (2-1) and 1 win (1-0).

LA Galaxy was playing a 442 mid block with counter : they went ball over the defense all the time.

What have I learn :

- We can't play wide with a short passing system, otherwise we lost the ball too easily + partey is to isolated even with Ødegaard and Zinchenko during the build up. I guess I have to play fairly wide/fairly narrow, with Saka and Martinelli stretching the ^pitch (both of them having "Stay wide") ;

- Both of my FB have now "Mark Tighter" so they don't get catch up on their back so much ;

- Gabriel Jesus is better as a F9 than a CF-s because, as I thought, he lacks the "Target Front" stats for FM (while, he "has them" IRL). I may try CF-a but i'm afraid he has the same problem : too much ball send to him like he's a TF... Will give a try to CF-a. Currently, I put F9 with press more ;

- Even if I like Saka as a right winger, I think IF-a is better in the current ME. I may put Ødegaard as a Mezz-s (and Xhaka as a BBM).

I will look again the RDF video. Maybe, he and some of you are right about White being a WB-s...

[CKBrahMa]

So, I finish some of my tweaks :

1. First, I notice that, even if LA Galaxy wa playing a 442, only 1 of their stricker tried to press, so I was overwhelm in the midfield. When I switch to the 2 IWB, we get much more control

2. I do think that we can, at most, play fairly wide. I prefer fairly narrow, with both Saka and Martinelli holding the width with "stay wide"

3. Maybe the fact that a) LA Galaxy's players were fit (when mine are not) + not knwoing the tactic explain why they perform poorly

4. DL higher with "drop off more"

5. At the end, both of their stricker press more (very much like a true 442) : I switched back to my IW BPD CB WB-s and we manage to control the end of the game

6. I add the "Work Ball into box" and it seems to work, but i want to untick it after...

Edited November 10, 2022 by CKBrahMa

[Fantasista10]

1 hour ago, CKBrahMa said:

We can't play wide with a short passing system, otherwise we lost the ball too easily + partey is to isolated even with Ødegaard and Zinchenko during the build up. I guess I have to play fairly wide/fairly narrow, with Saka and Martinelli stretching the ^pitch (both of them having "Stay wide") ;

This is something I noticed in my beta save with Fiorentina. Playing Wide width meant to we lost possession a lot when attempting those ‘switches of play’. Playing on standard width, or fairly wide seems to work much better proving you instruct players to Stay Wide, like you said.

41 minutes ago, CKBrahMa said:

DL higher with "drop off more"

I think this is an essential tweak you have to make game to game. I try to start with a Much Higher D-Line but drop this one notch and add Drop off More if I’m worried about the long ball. 
 

Watching games on Comprehensive highlights (and I’m a 2D man 😂) really helps to know when and what to adjust. 
 

42 minutes ago, CKBrahMa said:

. At the end, both of their stricker press more (very much like a true 442) : I switched back to my IW BPD CB WB-s and we manage to control the end of the game

I really like this concept of changing roles and duties to vary your build up depending on the opponent and their pressing scheme. It’s something I’ve often ignored but will definitely pay more attention to this so thank you! 

[CKBrahMa]

Another tweak : I switched Gabriel M. from BPD to CB.

In the current ME, the BPD tends to go up a bit more (like on Stopper duty), which creates a hole in our defensive line.

Right now, here are my tactics :

My base tactic

 

 

My tactic against high press :

 

Here are the stats from my 3 first friendlies :

Game 1 :

Révélation

Game 2 :

Révélation

Game 3

Révélation

 

[CKBrahMa]

Game 4 : first time facing a back 5. I think, in this case, i should switch Ben White to a WB-s (or, even, a WB-a) to create a 6 against 5 and not 5/5

Still manage to win tho, with ok'ish stats

Révélation

We can see that facing a back 5 totally flatten our front 5

 

[CKBrahMa]

After tons of test : the current state of the ME can't grant you a 1. proper replication 2. that works well.

You can either choose to have an Arteta style, with a poor results or to have something close (like what RDF does) that works.

 

Tbh, putting so much effort (before writing this topic : hours looking on how Arsenal plays, etc.) just to conclude that it can't be done... Very disappointed

 

[Flußkrebs]

Just chiming in on Saka- John Muller wrote this back in August using the Athetic's new data-cluster player roles https://theathletic.com/3495225/2022/08/10/saka-arsenal-player-role/.

Gives this as the evolution of Saka over the last few seasons: 

• Wide threat: Stretches the back line and gets into the penalty area. Does some crossing but likes receiving the final ball as much as playing it. Kylian Mbappe, Vinicius Junior, Mohamed Salah
• Unlocker: Likes to play field marshal in the opponent’s half. Big on crosses, switches, and forward passes. More of a provider than an off-the-ball runner. Mason Mount, Neymar, Lorenzo Pellegrini
• Outlet: Gets on the end of dangerous passes but usually plays it safe on the ball. Takes a lot of touches in midfield or close to goal, not much in between. Draws fouls. Jadon Sancho, Jack Grealish, Joao Felix.

So basically, he's split between an inside forward type (who does cross a bit) and an outlet/receiver. This to me is a Winger on attack. I completely agree with @Fantasista10- Saka is a positional play style wide-forward. You could use Winger or IW to achieve this. 

I've been playing a semi-Ange inspired 433 (IWBs and IW-As that stay wide then come in), which isn't far off a more aggressive/less flexible Arteta team. One of the things that has frustrated me is that the IWBs don't really form a nice 2323 shape. But what they do do is behave like Ben White- sitting a bit narrower, overlapping sometimes (especially if you use overlap TIs). I think IWBs on both sides would fit this team.

 

[Fantasista10]

47 minutes ago, CKBrahMa said:

After tons of test : the current state of the ME can't grant you a 1. proper replication 2. that works well.

You can either choose to have an Arteta style, with a poor results or to have something close (like what RDF does) that works.

 

Tbh, putting so much effort (before writing this topic : hours looking on how Arsenal plays, etc.) just to conclude that it can't be done... Very disappointed

 

I agree you cannot get a ‘true’ replication which is anywhere close to real life - but that is the same for any tactic you try and emulate. FM, as great as it is, is just a game. Hopefully one day it will be even more realistic but until then we have to settle for getting something maybe 80% accurate (which works). 
 

I have been testing some more with Sporting Lisbon and it’s been going well. I originally started with a back 3 system which didn’t work out too well and since reverting to my usual 4-3-3 (where I try to replicate Arteta) results and performances have been really good. 
 

Here is the tactic I am running - but the important thing to know is the changes I constantly make in game, and for away games against big sides in particular. 

I start with the Tiki Taka preset, only adding Trap Outside which compliments my opposition instructions. 
 

However in game I can make the following changes to TIs:

- Lower the Defensive Line one notch to ‘Higher’, adding ‘Drop off More’ and reducing pressing intensity to ‘More Often’ - this is for when I can see my press beaten too easily and/or I’m worried about a ball over the top. 
- Increase the Tempo and Passing distance, particularly if I am being pressed and I want to move the all quicker to avoid players dwelling on the ball and being caught out. 

The second variation is for away games, but I tend not to start with this, only moving to this tactic when either taking the lead or if I feel we are under pressure. It has less risk in general due to the Mentality but also incorporates the above in game changes I tend to make. 

 

I had two tough away games where this tactic was one of the strongest I’ve used so far. We drew 1-1 away to Benfica despite dominating, and managed to beat Chelsea 1-2 at Stamford Bridge in the UCL! 
 

Early signs it’s working well. Appreciate you may disagree with some of the roles but I have compromised a bit with what suits my players, and also what works in the ME. 
 

One last thing on the ME, I actually really like it. I have noticed subtle differences since the Beta, particularly how the wide roles are playing. 

[kalongtongan]

my first game with arsenal in fm23 game, 4-3-3 but in-game our average positions look like 4-2-3-1.

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by kalongtongan
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[BadAss88]

1 hour ago, kalongtongan said:

my first game with arsenal in fm23 game, 4-3-3 but in-game our average positions look like 4-2-3-1.

 

Your average position looks like a 4-3-3 

[crusadertsar]

10 minutes ago, BadAss88 said:

Your average position looks like a 4-3-3 

He might have been looking at Man United, which looks more like 4-2-3-1 

[kalongtongan]

3 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

He might have been looking at Man United, which looks more like 4-2-3-1 

Lol, my Bad, I tought I'm the red team.

Edited November 11, 2022 by kalongtongan

[CKBrahMa]

I think one of the problem is the attributes of Xhaka. He can’t play well as a Mezz or a B2B as he lacks some crucial attributes (acceleration, tackles for instance).

He always seems odd in FM has he has not enough defensive stats for a DM, and not enough physical to be offensive.

Well, I did switch Partey and Xhaka, and the tactic works better for 5 past games.

[soft tofu]

Playing on FM21. I have IF-s and Mez-s on the same side. They occasionally swap position. IF cutting in, Mez going wide. So I believe you should be getting Mez going wide with your current tactic however, the player may need to have good off the ball attribute. IW and Mez may also do that, but IW is more creator than runner if compared to IF.

What I can't get from FM21 is the third CB movement from a FB. Which I hope SI can just add one role for that in the future.

CF is for me, the best choice if I want my striker to drop deep and still be on the scoresheet. DF and F9 tend to be too far from the goal.

[kalongtongan]

On 11/11/2022 at 05:48, BadAss88 said:

Your average position looks like a 4-3-3 

Apologies that's my eyes mistake, how about this...

I believe im the red team now.

later i shows the clips how we play like arteta-ish.

Edited November 12, 2022 by kalongtongan
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[jdubsnz]

Glad I found this thread!  Currently trying to replicate Arteta's tactics on an Arsenal save.  Have been doing well up to December with more standard tactics, and this thread inspired me.  Settled on the following for the next game against Wolves, and it played lovely.  Some challenges:

• the Jesus role is tricky. I went for CF(a) but its hard to tell if that is right as Jesus has been really poor most of the season for me, averaging around 6.5. I had loaned in Joe Gelhradt and he has done so well the fans demanded we made it a permanent signing
• The 'Partey' role - FYI I sold Partey (for reasons) and brought in Danilo.  Didn't do much in this game - I want to figure out how to give him more of a passing range but still have a defensive mindset

What worked:

• Xhaka played really well, was popping up everywhere like he is doing at the moment and dovetailed well with Zinny
• Martinelli and Xhaka played how they should, and Odegaard played some lovely balls for them
• Benny White as a FB(s) was a good likeness

I'll play a few more and tinker a bit but here is how I was lining up, and the instructions for Xhaka

[kalongtongan]

@jdubsnzfor my game i like partey as bmw-d/s and add him dictate tempo for his trait. Since fm22 i really like how bwm behaves on my possession-based tactics.
And  for xhaka his vision and passing is very good but lacks composure, concentration, acc and agility. In 4-2-3-1 system i used to give him dlp-s role but recently i like him to be cm-s with pi roam from position & dribble-less (bbm-ish) and yes i removed the 'dwells on ball' trait, because for what i saw on how arteta developed him now become bbm, unfortunately fm23 didn't revamp his attributes.

And now for this FM23 ME i really like how AF and CB as cover duty behave in game. and for jesus his is my best AF.

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by kalongtongan

[CKBrahMa]

Hi everyone !

What do you think about these 2 videos 

- Tifo IRL on how Arsenal is defending ;

- FMS on the general Arsenal tactic.

It pretty much proved my point that both FB are IWB-s (or, White being FB-s with sit narrower OR CWB-s).

I feel like I was very close to get the recreation, but it can’t be a great tactic on FM…

[w_x]

On 12/11/2022 at 14:10, kalongtongan said:

@jdubsnzfor my game i like partey as bmw-d/s and add him dictate tempo for his trait. Since fm22 i really like how bwm behaves on my possession-based tactics.
And  for xhaka his vision and passing is very good but lacks composure, concentration, acc and agility. In 4-2-3-1 system i used to give him dlp-s role but recently i like him to be cm-s with pi roam from position & dribble-less (bbm-ish) and yes i removed the 'dwells on ball' trait, because for what i saw on how arteta developed him now become bbm, unfortunately fm23 didn't revamp his attributes.

And now for this FM23 ME i really like how AF and CB as cover duty behave in game. and for jesus his is my best AF.

 

Haaland not top scorer, inconceievable! 

[_mxrky]

2 hours ago, CKBrahMa said:

Hi everyone !

What do you think about these 2 videos 

- Tifo IRL on how Arsenal is defending ;

- FMS on the general Arsenal tactic.

It pretty much proved my point that both FB are IWB-s (or, White being FB-s with sit narrower OR CWB-s).

I feel like I was very close to get the recreation, but it can’t be a great tactic on FM…

The defensive structure in the 2nd video is impossible on fm. Fullbacks simply don't press that high on fm. It's a massive flaw in the game that full backs don't press fullbacks/

[The3points]

Having seen Vieira in the Xhaka role, I can't help but think that a 4-1-4-1 double AM could be the formation we're looking for in the future, with the left sided player as an AM-S and the Odegaard player as a AP-S. A 4-3-3 does represent our attacking shape relatively well but is misses out on the significant contributions Odegaard makes higher up than Xhaka and also his pressing in our 4-4-2 defensive shape

[The3points]

I also find it quite funny that Arteta's players seemed to represent similar roles to Wenger's. Ignoring the fullbacks, I have a:

SK-D (Ramsdale/Almunia), 2*CD-D (Don't think either of our players are BPDs), DLP-D (Partey/Song), RPM (Odegaard/Fabregas) CM-S (Wilshere/Xhaka) IW-A (Walcott/Martinelli) IW-S (Nasri/Saka)