*Official* Football Manager 2023 Feedback Thread

[Etebaer]

Funny thing is i am allways "accused" of playing possession football by the game.

Yet possession is not a factor in any of my thougts but constructive defending and attacking - possession is only the result of it and the strenght of my opponent and i win games with or without possession majority (aka dominance).

My goal is not dominance but confidence in any situation with and without ball!

[anagain]

2 hours ago, BuzzR said:

I don't think we can blame it on the animation every time. There are persistent issues with the defensive module and they aren't new.

Yes, the glaring issues that we had in the beta version ( a.k.a. release version ) were patched, but the recurrent ones are still there.

 

I don't think this is an animation problem.

There is a long ball - but not an over the top ball where the defenders should get in a pace contest with the attacker. 

This a long ball on the head of the target man, the defender is close but makes a mistake. Ok. Could happen. 

What is wrong with this situation - in my opinion, is the behavior of the FBs and the other CB. There is no cover for the possible mistake. In real life the RB and the other CB are closing in and dropping a little when the long ball is fired, and also the CMs are getting back for the second ball recovery. The LB should also close in for the other striker. 

But, as we can see the RB is more concerned about his position closer to the sideline - moving away when the long ball is fired, the other CB is closing in just a bit, then moves away! and the LB is having a break on the left side.

There is a lack of communication ( not sure if this is even implemented in some form ) and an imbalance in the decision tree between the position, ball following, man mark, threat of the entire defensive module. 

Again, this was visible in FM22 (at least).

And again, this is happening too often imho.

 

 

 

 

What is the pace of your LCD? He seems to me to be lagging behind and could be why he's not closing in when the attacker moves in to the area. Your RB and LB do close down but they're not going to get close when the original ball is played, even if they were Kyle Walker!

By the end of that move you had 4 defenders in the box cutting off balls that could give their attacker support - support which doesn't look to be coming anyway.

I notice you didn't complain about the terrible GK pass that went straight to your attacker. 

The original mistake by your RCD is a bit glaring, but I suspect what the game is trying to show is that he'd been outmuscled by the attacker. He has been Kieffer Moored! Of course, Kieffer would have fired that home. 

 

If you have seen a lot of what you think are glaring errors then the best bet is to post them in the bugs forums as pkms. Explain what you think is the issue and that is the best way that SI can analyse them and decide if there are issues. Maybe you have. I haven't checked, but they are less likely to look in to a video posted here. You have the right attitude and are constructive, so if you have a lot of examples then post them. 

[ajw10]

22 hours ago, ajw10 said:

Just to back up WTS' point about defending.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

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The Villa game sums it up I think. Again, these games can absolutely happen but it's the frequency that it happens I'm finding irritating. It just feels inevitable that they will get a late goal from either a ball over the top or some other nonsense.

City game is less of an issue because again, these games happen. However, the first goal was down to a poor touch by Saka, the second was poor defending from Tomiyasu and the third was Enzo Fernandez standing with the ball at his feet for far too long (poor animation). Saka, Tomiyasu and Fernandez' mistakes weren't mentioned in the commentary and as far as I can see, their match ratings weren't affected by it. Saliba on the other hand? Got a 6.1 rating and I can't work out why.

There's just something not right about this game. I feel like it's a big step backwards from a very good FM 22

Yeah I think that's me done until an update. Same nonsense mistakes that make no sense. Highlights include my gk and defender tackling each other, a penalty for nothing and Saliba misjudging the ball for no reason.

 

[Shayblubi]

On 2022. 11. 8. at 오전 2시 5분, Neil Brock said:

Football Manager 2023 is OUT NOW! We're all super excited at SI Towers and hope you feel the same way too. The version has been updated since the Early Access, but before you ask, there isn't a change list. If you want to keep an eye on a specific issue and whether it's been addressed, check out the status of it via our Bug Tracker which we'll be looking to update over the next couple of days. 

This thread of course is for feedback of the full game and will be read by lots of different members of the SI team. We may reply in some instances, as will the forum mods - but can't reply to everything.

As mentioned above, the Bug Tracker is the place for any issues you find with the game. 

For any troubleshooting say for crashes or being unable to launch, read our Technical FAQ which is filled with lots of info that should get you up and running.

What we try to ask every year is we please if you’re raising feedback, try and make it constructive. The full list of our traditional ground rules can be found below:

• Please try to keep any feedback constructive. That doesn't mean you can only be positive, but if you are going to be critical, at least give us your reasons. Help us to help you by giving details.
• Respect other opinions. We don't expect everyone to agree but please take the time to read posts and respect their position. Even if they're wrong. Like REALLY wrong. 
• Please take Tactical Discussion elsewhere. We've seen that these types of threads can see posts focused on the tactical side of the game and whilst this is interesting, it's much more appropriate discussion for our Tactics, Training and Strategies Discussion.
• Don’t make it personal. Attacks and the like won’t be tolerated. SI Staff and our volunteer moderating team will engage where we can, but any abuse makes that much more unlikely.

Now go away and play FM. Unless you've got like two monitors or maybe even a separate device. Or you play in windowed mode. Then you can post here. In fact do what you like. I'm not the boss of you. You're the boss of whichever team you pick. Enjoy! 

 

[g1nh0]

6 hours ago, SimonHoddle said:

I’m beginning to agree. It’s fun but silly. Things are happening that are either the result of poor graphical representation or odd ME programming. I feel, as a manager/ game player, that my decisions are more irrelevant than ever and the game happens despite, and not because of, ones tactics.

That's something I had noticed as well iro the decisions feeling less impactful or irrelevant (which certainly can be frustrating), but I figure it's probably part of the increased difficulty where not only may you need to get things correct tactically, but all the player interactions / motivating your players may just be as important and now have a significantly greater bearing on whether those decisions end up being successful or not. (along with having the quality of players at your disposal to make a positive impact).

And then ofc there is the luck element - you can sometimes make the right tactical changes and calls but you can still lose regardless. I guess then it's a case of do the devs want FM to be more gamer friendly where you are rewarded for making the correct calls, or go in a more realistic direction where you'll still end up losing despite tactically and motivationally doing things as perfectly as one could. And any tactical changes that are made, usually there are con's to the pro's - and perhaps these are now being more exploited than previously making things tougher for the gamer, where having the desired quality of player to make a difference is also of equal importance.

Football is a game of luck I think, and all you can do is try maximise your chances of achieving success.

[Jellico73]

7 hours ago, BuzzR said:

I don't think we can blame it on the animation every time. There are persistent issues with the defensive module and they aren't new.

Yes, the glaring issues that we had in the beta version ( a.k.a. release version ) were patched, but the recurrent ones are still there.

 

I don't think this is an animation problem.

There is a long ball - but not an over the top ball where the defenders should get in a pace contest with the attacker. 

This a long ball on the head of the target man, the defender is close but makes a mistake. Ok. Could happen. 

What is wrong with this situation - in my opinion, is the behavior of the FBs and the other CB. There is no cover for the possible mistake. In real life the RB and the other CB are closing in and dropping a little when the long ball is fired, and also the CMs are getting back for the second ball recovery. The LB should also close in for the other striker. 

But, as we can see the RB is more concerned about his position closer to the sideline - moving away when the long ball is fired, the other CB is closing in just a bit, then moves away! and the LB is having a break on the left side.

There is a lack of communication ( not sure if this is even implemented in some form ) and an imbalance in the decision tree between the position, ball following, man mark, threat of the entire defensive module. 

Again, this was visible in FM22 (at least).

And again, this is happening too often imho.

 

 

 

 

I am asking these honestly, because as much as I have the played the game in real life and online, what I know about the tactical nuances of the game are at best a couple of powerpoint slides deep.

So, in what appears to be a wider formation and a zonal marking system, what is the RB doing wrong here?  Are you counterpressing or regrouping when you don't have possession?  From how the players appear to be moving, it looks like they are regrouping.

When Babangida kicks the ball the RB is already facing away from it and towards the sideline (turning outside around to run back, probably a mistake IMO), then turns around and goes in a step before backing up to his original line and appearing to establish his position in the zone.  Given his role and position in the formation, and the rules that go along with that role and position (which are also affected by any additional PI's and the player's own attributes), what "should" he being doing as opposed to what he "could" be doing?  The ball is nowhere near him, he could be a target for the possible incoming defensive header, is he setting up for that?  What's his primary defensive role/move here supposed to be, should he be crashing towards the CB's instead of staying wide, thereby leaving an AM and CM to cover the three closest attacking players next to them, because it looks like your striker is going further up the field to establish his own zone against the opposing CB's?

Is the other CB supposed to crash into his own teammate in an aerial fight for the ball, especially considering he'd have to go thru his own teammate to get there?  Is he expecting Fisher to win the header and/or the ball back?  If he moves closer to the center he opens a gap that the attacking player who is already beyond your midfielders can exploit.  If the LB moves in to cover the hole created by the CB moving in closer to the center, he opens up his area of the field more.

In the two and a half seconds from when Babangida kicks the ball to when Fisher muffs the header, what are you expecting to happen?

In the two and a half seconds from when Babangida kicks the ball to when Fisher muffs the header, given everyone's roles and instructions, what should have happened and given how RNG affects everything and the variety of factors that goes into determining what does happen, is the result plausible?

Jellico

[Jellico73]

3 hours ago, ajw10 said:

Yeah I think that's me done until an update. Same nonsense mistakes that make no sense. Highlights include my gk and defender tackling each other, a penalty for nothing and Saliba misjudging the ball for no reason.

 

RNG is incapable/prohibited for rolling a '1' for Saliba?  

[ajw10]

24 minutes ago, Jellico73 said:

RNG is incapable/prohibited for rolling a '1' for Saliba?  

It would be fine if it wasn't a frequent thing

[arsenal3459]

in the day before a match, what training session (attached) am i using that can hurt a player?

this has been my setup ever since fm switched to this style of training, and it sometimes has resulted in injuries. so wanted to see if anyone could help.

for example, attached is one player who got a hernia lifting weights and another who blew out his cruciate ligaments sprinting.

looking to see if anyone can help me understand what it is about my prematch training that can cause such significant injuries (attached their descriptions too).

because i'm struggling to see where weight lifting or sprinting injuries could come from.

[Jellico73]

59 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

It would be fine if it wasn't a frequent thing

So in a full 90 minute match how often is he missing?

Jellico

[Jellico73]

2 minutes ago, arsenal3459 said:

in the day before a match, what training session (attached) am i using that can hurt a player?

this has been my setup ever since fm switched to this style of training, and it sometimes has resulted in injuries. so wanted to see if anyone could help.

for example, attached is one player who got a hernia lifting weights and another who blew out his cruciate ligaments sprinting.

looking to see if anyone can help me understand what it is about my prematch training that can cause such significant injuries (attached their descriptions too).

because i'm struggling to see where weight lifting or sprinting injuries could come from.

Without knowing what they practiced the days before, I would guess the weight lifting injury came about as part of a daily routine, where in your lifting weight for X minutes a day as opposed to full on weight session where you are lifting X hours a day.  The sprint injury came about in the match tactics sessions, I've always thought of it as players on the field moving at half speed (or less), and your guy was probably doing a short sprint and hurt himself.  Heck, A co worker of mine stepped of the curb to walk across the street a couple of weeks ago and snapped her Achilles.

[ajw10]

27 minutes ago, Jellico73 said:

So in a full 90 minute match how often is he missing?

Jellico

I'm not interested in getting drawn into this whataboutery 

Edited December 24, 2022 by ajw10

[BuzzR]

2 hours ago, Jellico73 said:

I am asking these honestly, because as much as I have the played the game in real life and online, what I know about the tactical nuances of the game are at best a couple of powerpoint slides deep.

I will answer what I think, imho should be the right approach - as I've seen it IRL , and this is also why I think the defensive module in FM is kind of bad regarding long balls.

Again, I am just an amateur and this is just a feedback discussion - maybe I am wrong.

I think when the defense reads and acknowledges the long ball - they should become more compact, 1 defender will engage the attacker and fight for the header, and the other 2 defenders closer to him will drop behind him and form a pocket to cover for flicks etc. The 4th defender, - the LB in my example would get closer to the second attacker and help out. 

That would be imho the ideal positioning for this example. Again, we should have errors , mistakes, lack of concentration - and we would see them if there was the case. 

Maybe the RB has lost his focus- doesn't drop back behind the CD who's engaging the header. Ok. Maybe the LCD has bad positioning, again OK. possible.

But imho the issue is that the right positioning never happens in the game and the bad positioning is always there.

The back 4 are always in line and do not react when the long ball fires;1 defender challenges the header and 3 defenders are holding position and watch the play and react AFTER the header is missed and the striker is free on goal.

2 hours ago, Jellico73 said:

So, in what appears to be a wider formation and a zonal marking system, what is the RB doing wrong here?  Are you counterpressing or regrouping when you don't have possession?  From how the players appear to be moving, it looks like they are regrouping.

I was playing a 4-4-2 Balanced , no marking instructions, standard pressing. No OI. No counter pressing. No regrouping.

2 hours ago, Jellico73 said:

When Babangida kicks the ball the RB is already facing away from it and towards the sideline (turning outside around to run back, probably a mistake IMO), then turns around and goes in a step before backing up to his original line and appearing to establish his position in the zone.  Given his role and position in the formation, and the rules that go along with that role and position (which are also affected by any additional PI's and the player's own attributes), what "should" he being doing as opposed to what he "could" be doing?  The ball is nowhere near him, he could be a target for the possible incoming defensive header, is he setting up for that?  What's his primary defensive role/move here supposed to be, should he be crashing towards the CB's instead of staying wide, thereby leaving an AM and CM to cover the three closest attacking players next to them, because it looks like your striker is going further up the field to establish his own zone against the opposing CB's?

Is the other CB supposed to crash into his own teammate in an aerial fight for the ball, especially considering he'd have to go thru his own teammate to get there?  Is he expecting Fisher to win the header and/or the ball back?  If he moves closer to the center he opens a gap that the attacking player who is already beyond your midfielders can exploit.  If the LB moves in to cover the hole created by the CB moving in closer to the center, he opens up his area of the field more.

What does it matter the role for the defenders in this particular situation ? It should not matter - defending long balls needs:

A. challenge the header and cover for flicks and second balls or B. high pressing and that's another topic.

The other CB should drop behind the ball challenger, as I said. No need for crashing anyone else. Little bit of unnecessary sarcasm there, but ok.

And yes, I would say on the long ball - the defense should get closer together ( more compact ) and leave the wide area open. The ball is already in play, we challenge for it and we guard against flick on and second balls by the way - the CMs should fall back towards the zone were the ball is heading.

2 hours ago, Jellico73 said:

In the two and a half seconds from when Babangida kicks the ball to when Fisher muffs the header, what are you expecting to happen?

The 2 and a half seconds are irrelevant. Maybe the ball physics are wrong, maybe the time representation is wrong, maybe the defenders are in the wrong position - just holding the line. Maybe I'm wrong  .

In my opinion the RFB is too wide from the start when the possession is lost but we should see the intention and the failure to get behind and cover for flicks even if the time is short.

As I said before, this could be because of some imbalance between the weight of position, threat assessment, marking in the defenders decision tree - but I never never see them set up correctly for defending a long ball. Again, just my opinion.

But hey, again this is the feedback thread.. So I hope I can throw my 2 cents here.

Edited December 24, 2022 by BuzzR
spelling

[Jellico73]

26 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

I'm not interested in getting drawn into this whataboutery 

And I'm not interested in Confirmation Bias being the baseline standard for making an argument and expecting a change as a result.

[Sunstrikuuu]

13 hours ago, rp1966 said:

Stop with all the locked bids.

I am completely serious when I say that non-negotiable offers should be removed from the game.  Teams receiving transfer offers should be able to make non-negotiable counter-offers, and subclauses should remain non-negotiable, but fully non-negotiable unsolicited offers are a) extremely annoying b) unrealistic and c) asymmetrical in their effects on the teams involved.

Last year I was fielding multiple non-negotiable offers per day through the entire transfer windows.  The year before that, the same.  It is long past time for this to be dealt with.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Sunstrikuuu

[rp1966]

50 minutes ago, Sunstrikuuu said:

I am completely serious when I say that non-negotiable offers should be removed from the game.  Teams receiving transfer offers should be able to make non-negotiable transfer offers, and subclauses should remain non-negotiable, but fully non-negotiable offers are a) extremely annoying b) unrealistic and c) asymmetrical in their effects on the teams involved.

Last year I was fielding multiple non-negotiable offers per day through the entire transfer windows.  The year before that, the same.  It is long past time for this to be dealt with.

Yep non-negotiable initial approaches simply shouldn't exist.

(Ring Ring)

Hello is that {WHU manager)?

Yes. Who am I speaking to?

I'm the manager of Nowhere Unathlectic, you didn't know I existed until this call, but give me your great youth prospect until the end of the season for nothing. That's all.

 

 

[Sunstrikuuu]

3 minutes ago, rp1966 said:

Yep non-negotiable initial approaches simply shouldn't exist.

(Ring Ring)

Hello is that {WHU manager)?

Yes. Who am I speaking to?

I'm the manager of Nowhere Unathlectic, you didn't know I existed until this call, but give me your great youth prospect until the end of the season for nothing. That's all.

"Well, you'll play him every day, right?"

"lol of course not, he'll sit on our bench"

[MINTED BLOB]

I've just bought FM23 having bought every version since FM14. I have to say my initial impression has been somewhat disappointing. 

As somebody who plays this game to wind down a bit rather than dedicating a great deal of time to it, my issue with the game for a while now has been not that it is "too difficult" (I think that's a pretty menial criticism to make of a video game generally) but rather that there's insufficient feedback from your in-game staff that may help with understanding what is and is not working with your approach. To ensure the post isn't too nebulous, I'll go into some specific criticisms below. 

1. The Assistant Manager Still Feels Pretty Redundant 

This is not a new criticism of the game but I'm reiterating it here because it is perhaps one of my biggest and most prolonged frustrations with Football Manager. With many players complaining about the game being too easy, and others complaining that it's too difficult, and I think a large part of this is that Football Manager is a game with a steep learning curve. The assistant manager seems like a great way to help players at all different stages of this learning curve. If you belong to the first camp, you can have your assistant manager focus fully on the coaching side and perhaps even tailor your preferred attributes accordingly. If you're in the second, you should be able to prioritize tactical knowledge and have this reflected in the quality of feedback you receive from your number two. 

In Football Manager, it only really feels as though the first camp can be satisfied in this regard. Sure, you can designate different tactical aspects to the assistant manager should you wish - you could even have him run the matches and just do the transfers if you want to! But the one thing I don't feel you can do is learn much about the game from them. I think this is such a shame because, whilst there are some absolutely wonderful people in this forum who have shown the utmost willing and kindness to help me out with my tactics when I've struggled in the past, I've sometimes felt like some of the stuff they've told me should've been stuff that an in-game assistant manager suggests to you. 

The choice of assistant manager is probably one of the more important decisions any football manager would make in real-life, and this just doesn't feel like it's reflected in the game to me at all. 

2. Team Mentality 

Perhaps it's just me but I've read a number of pieces from a number of different users on team mentality and I still don't think I fully understand it. This is not a criticism of the users; I think they do a quite brilliant job of explaining it. It is instead an issue I have with the game itself. I don't think the game does a particularly amazing job of making it clear how team mentality impacts your team instructions and player mentalities. And sure, some of you might say "well isn't it obvious", but I feel that the very fact that there have been quite a number of fairly detailed posts on the forum clarifying how mentality works in Football Manager somewhat vindicates my argument that the game itself could do a better job of making the concept more explicit. 

3. The User Interface Feels Overly Complex 

I think this argument is best explained by way of example, with perhaps one of the updates SI has made to the game in recent years that I have liked the least - the development centre. The main bugbear I have with the development centre is the fact that it adds extra clicks for certain functions which were much easier in previous versions. The base function of viewing your under 21s and under 18s squad is no longer as simple as just clicking a panel like it used to be, and viewing your staff members is far less intuitive than it should be because for some godforsaken reason the "staff" section of the development centre only shows you an overview and not a list of your actual staff members (Unless I'm missing something, in which case I'd say it's not obvious like it used to be). I'll admit this is quite a nebulous criticism but I don't think I'm the only person to bring it up either. 

The above list isn't exhaustive as I haven't had long to get to grips with the new game yet, but I think those are a few of the things that have marred my initial impression. 

[MBarbaric]

5 ore fa, BuzzR ha scritto:

I will answer what I think, imho should be the right approach - as I've seen it IRL , and this is also why I think the defensive module in FM is kind of bad regarding long balls.

Again, I am just an amateur and this is just a feedback discussion - maybe I am wrong.

I think when the defense reads and acknowledges the long ball - they should become more compact, 1 defender will engage the attacker and fight for the header, and the other 2 defenders closer to him will drop behind him and form a pocket to cover for flicks etc. The 4th defender, - the LB in my example would get closer to the second attacker and help out. 

That would be imho the ideal positioning for this example. Again, we should have errors , mistakes, lack of concentration - and we would see them if there was the case. 

Maybe the RB has lost his focus- doesn't drop back behind the CD who's engaging the header. Ok. Maybe the LCD has bad positioning, again OK. possible.

But imho the issue is that the right positioning never happens in the game and the bad positioning is always there.

The back 4 are always in line and do not react when the long ball fires;1 defender challenges the header and 3 defenders are holding position and watch the play and react AFTER the header is missed and the striker is free on goal.

I was playing a 4-4-2 Balanced , no marking instructions, standard pressing. No OI. No counter pressing. No regrouping.

What does it matter the role for the defenders in this particular situation ? It should not matter - defending long balls needs:

A. challenge the header and cover for flicks and second balls or B. high pressing and that's another topic.

The other CB should drop behind the ball challenger, as I said. No need for crashing anyone else. Little bit of unnecessary sarcasm there, but ok.

And yes, I would say on the long ball - the defense should get closer together ( more compact ) and leave the wide area open. The ball is already in play, we challenge for it and we guard against flick on and second balls by the way - the CMs should fall back towards the zone were the ball is heading.

The 2 and a half seconds are irrelevant. Maybe the ball physics are wrong, maybe the time representation is wrong, maybe the defenders are in the wrong position - just holding the line. Maybe I'm wrong  .

In my opinion the RFB is too wide from the start when the possession is lost but we should see the intention and the failure to get behind and cover for flicks even if the time is short.

As I said before, this could be because of some imbalance between the weight of position, threat assessment, marking in the defenders decision tree - but I never never see them set up correctly for defending a long ball. Again, just my opinion.

But hey, again this is the feedback thread.. So I hope I can throw my 2 cents here.

as a professional, i'd judge your guess spot on.

mr sarri also agrees

 

[GIMN]

5 hours ago, MINTED BLOB said:

1. The Assistant Manager Still Feels Pretty Redundant 

This is not a new criticism of the game but I'm reiterating it here because it is perhaps one of my biggest and most prolonged frustrations with Football Manager. With many players complaining about the game being too easy, and others complaining that it's too difficult, and I think a large part of this is that Football Manager is a game with a steep learning curve. The assistant manager seems like a great way to help players at all different stages of this learning curve. If you belong to the first camp, you can have your assistant manager focus fully on the coaching side and perhaps even tailor your preferred attributes accordingly. If you're in the second, you should be able to prioritize tactical knowledge and have this reflected in the quality of feedback you receive from your number two. 

In Football Manager, it only really feels as though the first camp can be satisfied in this regard. Sure, you can designate different tactical aspects to the assistant manager should you wish - you could even have him run the matches and just do the transfers if you want to! But the one thing I don't feel you can do is learn much about the game from them. I think this is such a shame because, whilst there are some absolutely wonderful people in this forum who have shown the utmost willing and kindness to help me out with my tactics when I've struggled in the past, I've sometimes felt like some of the stuff they've told me should've been stuff that an in-game assistant manager suggests to you. 

The choice of assistant manager is probably one of the more important decisions any football manager would make in real-life, and this just doesn't feel like it's reflected in the game to me at all. 

This is something I have to disagree with strongly.  I make it a priority to find an Assistant Manager with tactical philosophies matching the approach I intend to follow.  I'm specifically looking for someone who shares as many of the following as possible:

• Preferred formation
• Tactical Style
• Playing Style
• Playing Mentality
• Pressing Style

As a result I seldom find feedback to be poor quality or illogical.  Sure, I might not always choose to follow it, but it is tactically consistent.

[MINTED BLOB]

8 hours ago, GIMN said:

This is something I have to disagree with strongly.  I make it a priority to find an Assistant Manager with tactical philosophies matching the approach I intend to follow.  I'm specifically looking for someone who shares as many of the following as possible:

• Preferred formation
• Tactical Style
• Playing Style
• Playing Mentality
• Pressing Style

As a result I seldom find feedback to be poor quality or illogical.  Sure, I might not always choose to follow it, but it is tactically consistent.

First off, I'd like to say thanks for a great response to my post. That's really helpful feedback with some actionable points I hadn't honestly considered before. 

I'd say even taking what you've said into account though, my own personal issue with the assistant manager is that I don't always feel as though you receive enough feedback as to why they're making the suggestions they're making. The best Football Manager players are always excellent at spotting things in-game and can always explain why things will work rather than just that they will. I myself struggle with this facet of the game, and whilst there are some excellent people on here willing to offer help in this regard I do think it would be good for the game itself to offer more support to players looking to bridge that gap.

Opposition instructions are an area where they do do this quite well; normally you're told that a winger is getting a lot of room for crosses and so should be closed down, for example. I feel it would be good to receive more feedback like this regarding, say, player roles and why they might not be working together from your assistant manager, or any problems your team's mentality is causing for your tactic. 

I'll end by saying that I do appreciate this is an extremely subjective criticism. More experienced/better players are quite obviously going to feel less inclined towards assistant managers who offer more guidance with tactical tweaking, as they're more able to do it themselves. 

Edited December 25, 2022 by MINTED BLOB

[rdbayly]

Defenders just can't handle diagonal balls over the top played from the flank to the centre (and no I do not play a high line with the wrong sort of player). Defensive reactions are still a disgrace and I've never felt such a disconnect between attributes and on-pitch performance. 

[SimonHoddle]

16 hours ago, g1nh0 said:

That's something I had noticed as well iro the decisions feeling less impactful or irrelevant (which certainly can be frustrating), but I figure it's probably part of the increased difficulty where not only may you need to get things correct tactically, but all the player interactions / motivating your players may just be as important and now have a significantly greater bearing on whether those decisions end up being successful or not. (along with having the quality of players at your disposal to make a positive impact).

And then ofc there is the luck element - you can sometimes make the right tactical changes and calls but you can still lose regardless. I guess then it's a case of do the devs want FM to be more gamer friendly where you are rewarded for making the correct calls, or go in a more realistic direction where you'll still end up losing despite tactically and motivationally doing things as perfectly as one could. And any tactical changes that are made, usually there are con's to the pro's - and perhaps these are now being more exploited than previously making things tougher for the gamer, where having the desired quality of player to make a difference is also of equal importance.

Football is a game of luck I think, and all you can do is try maximise your chances of achieving success.

Fair and well written argument. I play on Touch so the various inputs (eg player interaction) don’t exist. So if SI are making luck and PI increasingly important then it makes Touch basically a computerised Match of the Day with average graphics. 
And how much does luck really play a part IRL? City and Liverpool dominate the EPL year after year. Luck is a tiny factor. It’s brilliance of tactics, players, motivation and strategy. 
it seems chaos has been embraced but it’s not realistic chaos. So it looks artificial and is ultimately very frustrating.

I think it’s tough for the developers. The closer we get to real life simulation the more jarring the inaccuracies become. And frustrating sums up my feelings for 23. Silly but fun is slowly becoming just silly because high quality players are doing stupid things.

and if SI want to change the dynamics then tell us! But instead they release videos about defending wider being rebranded as stop crosses rather than explain the version dynamics. And I think therein lies my biggest gripe. They have never shared a proper explanation in any version what the idiosyncrasies of each version are. So we have to muddle our way through each year as the game changes. It’s not real life, it’s nowhere near real life football so give us a manual and an explanation as to what each input does and why things happen.

what does always MM really mean? Why is my RB ignoring the man I told him to always press? How big a factor is confidence? Do teams get distracted the following fixture after CL midweek matches ? Tell us!

anyway. Off to roast a turkey! 

[DarJ]

16 hours ago, Jellico73 said:

what is the RB doing wrong here?

He is not doing anything wrong per say but it's a game issue IMO. When teams defend IRL they tend to do that narrowly and if you ever watch teams defend in FM, the space between the CBs is too big and the space between the FB and CB is even bigger like you can see in the clip. If the team was a bit narrow it would have been much more difficult to concede there because other players will be closer to help defensively. I know other instructions could influence this behaviour but still it shouldn't be that much.

I think another thing FM gets wrong sometimes is the body shape of the defenders when they have a striker running past them. If you watch that kind of scenario IRL you will see that the defender is not facing the direction of the ball straight on but his body shape is slightly turned giving him the ability to hold his line if he has to or run after the striker without being in too much of a disadvantage since the striker will be facing full on the direction where he is running towards. That is why in FM you will see the defender always lose in situations like that regardless of the acceleration of both players

 

Edited December 25, 2022 by DarJ

[g1nh0]

38 minutes ago, SimonHoddle said:

Fair and well written argument. I play on Touch so the various inputs (eg player interaction) don’t exist. So if SI are making luck and PI increasingly important then it makes Touch basically a computerised Match of the Day with average graphics. 
And how much does luck really play a part IRL? City and Liverpool dominate the EPL year after year. Luck is a tiny factor. It’s brilliance of tactics, players, motivation and strategy. 
it seems chaos has been embraced but it’s not realistic chaos. So it looks artificial and is ultimately very frustrating.

I think it’s tough for the developers. The closer we get to real life simulation the more jarring the inaccuracies become. And frustrating sums up my feelings for 23. Silly but fun is slowly becoming just silly because high quality players are doing stupid things.

and if SI want to change the dynamics then tell us! But instead they release videos about defending wider being rebranded as stop crosses rather than explain the version dynamics. And I think therein lies my biggest gripe. They have never shared a proper explanation in any version what the idiosyncrasies of each version are. So we have to muddle our way through each year as the game changes. It’s not real life, it’s nowhere near real life football so give us a manual and an explanation as to what each input does and why things happen.

what does always MM really mean? Why is my RB ignoring the man I told him to always press? How big a factor is confidence? Do teams get distracted the following fixture after CL midweek matches ? Tell us!

anyway. Off to roast a turkey! 

Likewise  And in fact, I do agree with your reference to Liverpool and City - but to an extent. Domestically where there is a greater gulf in quality between the real top sides and rest of the Premiership, providing an appropriate style of football is played at these top clubs then there should be less instances of luck / being FM'd factor occurring. 

However, when you're looking at the lower levels the difference in quality is much more minimal -  this is where there should be a greater factor of luck and man management affecting the results of these games.

Also with the top clubs, this luck / being FM'd factor should likewise be more evident in the knockout stages of European competitions, for the same reason not only will the competition be again much tighter, but the nature of the competition, the nerves factor, and individual inspired performances would increase the chances of a considered unfair result happening. You just have to look at Liverpool vs Real Madrid in the ECL final, or City vs Real Madrid KOs where probably City would have gone through 90% of the time.

At this moment, I agree with you the game is more to the frustrating side and it is a balance not easy to get right for the Devs especially as this ultimately is a game where fun needs to be taken into account to try keep as many people as happy as possible. You're never going to make a perfect game for everyone, but the balance to account for many is critical.

But again on the other side of the scale, you could look at it where wouldn't the game be boring if teams such as City / Pool can't be toppled with underdog sides? But for me this is where more possession based games need to be more effective and playable at bigger clubs that have quality players, and less possession based games more effective at the lower levels - and a good manager at a top club playing the right type of sustainable football should have less of these luck factor instances to contend with.

[blejdek]

More of a question from my side, did they remove on tactics screen play more narrow or play more wide or standard ?? Cant find it anywhere.

Edit: When out of possesion.

Edited December 25, 2022 by blejdek
Edit: When out of possesion.

[Haiku]

On 24/12/2022 at 10:47, rp1966 said:

And don't get me started on 'Offer to Clubs' - inevitably comes back with a message saying club is interested but does not have wage budget (EPL wages, right?)  - so give me a counter offer; if you're interested tell  me what wage contribution you want; don't make me guess what you might afford and have to offer out again.  And that's an AI general comment - NEGOTIATE!!!  Stop with all the locked bids.

In such cases when you offer to clubs make sure you offer wage contribution.

[kingjericho]

15 hours ago, MINTED BLOB said:

2. Team Mentality 

Mentality is RISK

If you want your team to be creative and take risks (1v1, through balls, runs down the wings, get forward) use a high mentality. If you want them to play safe (side passes until a space opens, shoot from good positions only, don't get forward unless there's a blatant gap) go low mentality.

[MINTED BLOB]

3 hours ago, kingjericho said:

Mentality is RISK

If you want your team to be creative and take risks (1v1, through balls, runs down the wings, get forward) use a high mentality. If you want them to play safe (side passes until a space opens, shoot from good positions only, don't get forward unless there's a blatant gap) go low mentality.

Many thanks for the response; I appreciate the help. From what I've seen written about team mentality, I think what you've written is a really good summary. I will also credit the game here and say that the idea of risk is actually mentioned within the description of the available team mentalities; I just think that the way that mentality actually impacts your team's behaviour (e.g. defensive line, passing risk, tempo) could be made more explicit in the game. 

Unless the tactic creator has changed again recently, I am now aware that mentality plays a role in affecting these factors as well as team and player instructions. I know now, for example, that the second from highest tempo setting on a "positive" mentality setting relates to a higher tempo than the second highest tempo setting on a "cautious" mentality. I'm not entirely sure that the game makes this fact immediately obvious, though, and I think this could be quite helpful for players who aren't as experienced or just aren't as good at building tactics. (I'd put myself in this bracket) 

Essentially, what I'm trying to get at is that I think the one paragraph you've written there provides more clarity on what team mentality is and how it affects your tactic than the game itself does, and in my eyes that doesn't reflect brilliantly on the game. 

Edited December 25, 2022 by MINTED BLOB

[kingjericho]

1 hour ago, MINTED BLOB said:

Many thanks for the response; I appreciate the help. From what I've seen written about team mentality, I think this what you've written is a really good summary. I will also credit the game here and say that the idea of risk is actually mentioned within the description of the available team mentalities; I just think that the way that mentality actually impacts your team's behaviour (e.g. defensive line, passing risk, tempo) could be made more explicit in the game. 

Unless the tactic creator has changed again recently, I am now aware that mentality plays a role in affecting these factors as well as team and player instructions. I know now, for example, that the second from highest tempo setting on a "positive" mentality setting relates to a higher tempo than the second highest tempo setting on a "cautious" mentality. I'm not entirely sure that the game makes this fact immediately obvious, though, and I think this could be quite helpful for players who aren't as experienced or just aren't as good at building tactics. (I'd put myself in this bracket) 

Essentially, what I'm trying to get at is that I think the one paragraph you've written there provides more clarity on what team mentality is and how it affects your tactic than the game itself does, and in my eyes that doesn't reflect brilliantly on the game. 

I've settled on this concept of mentality = risk by reading several threads in the forum. It's definitely not a clear concept in the game but it's the definition that makes the most sense and easy to understand. 

[ostkiz]

Honestly this game actually is rubbish , far away the worst  i remember:  the 3d sucks , the transfer market is zero realistic....its the first time since championship manager i don't want to play the game in my free time.

I give up.

[rdbayly]

Today is the end of my time with this version of the game. A catastrophically bad simulation of the sport. I just beat Sporting 2-0 and they racked up nearly 1000 passes between their back 7 and mustered 1 shot on target.

The sheer randomness this creates from game to game makes it impossible to analyse performances. 

[Aoyao]

8 hours ago, kingjericho said:

Mentality is RISK

If you want your team to be creative and take risks (1v1, through balls, runs down the wings, get forward) use a high mentality. If you want them to play safe (side passes until a space opens, shoot from good positions only, don't get forward unless there's a blatant gap) go low mentality.

What about the tempo?

[iAlwaysWin]

FM23 can be a very enjoyable game, especially during beta i enjoyed it alot. But every so often the in game matches make no sense at all, from total domination from the oppostion team, like TOTAL DOMINATION 35 SHOTS TO MY 1, to total domination for my team only to lose to some unexplainable scenario. Dont understand why majority of people are still playing this, i payed good money for it and quite gladly went back to FM22, where at least things make sense to a certain degree.

Edited December 26, 2022 by iAlwaysWin

[SimonHoddle]

Consistent theme of match randomness coming up. Difficult to analyse and explain matches. Absurd behaviour of players in match etc etc.

the developers work bloody hard and FM is so far ahead of the competition it’s in a different universe.

but 23 seems wrong. I’m getting bored of watching world class defenders pass straight to an opponent under no pressure because the ME determines it’s time for a goal. It feels contrived and weird this year. I don’t trust the stats, player instructions or ME. that leaves v little to enjoy.

Below is my team with 10 players in box ignoring 2 city players near the 6 yard line. City score. It’s silly. 

[alian62]

1 hour ago, SimonHoddle said:

Consistent theme of match randomness coming up. Difficult to analyse and explain matches. Absurd behaviour of players in match etc etc.

the developers work bloody hard and FM is so far ahead of the competition it’s in a different universe.

but 23 seems wrong. I’m getting bored of watching world class defenders pass straight to an opponent under no pressure because the ME determines it’s time for a goal. It feels contrived and weird this year. I don’t trust the stats, player instructions or ME. that leaves v little to enjoy.

Below is my team with 10 players in box ignoring 2 city players near the 6 yard line. City score. It’s silly. 

There isn't any competition at all . This is why the game suffers 

[Jellico73]

15 hours ago, DarJ said:

He is not doing anything wrong per say but it's a game issue IMO. When teams defend IRL they tend to do that narrowly and if you ever watch teams defend in FM, the space between the CBs is too big and the space between the FB and CB is even bigger like you can see in the clip. If the team was a bit narrow it would have been much more difficult to concede there because other players will be closer to help defensively. I know other instructions could influence this behaviour but still it shouldn't be that much.

I think another thing FM gets wrong sometimes is the body shape of the defenders when they have a striker running past them. If you watch that kind of scenario IRL you will see that the defender is not facing the direction of the ball straight on but his body shape is slightly turned giving him the ability to hold his line if he has to or run after the striker without being in too much of a disadvantage since the striker will be facing full on the direction where he is running towards. That is why in FM you will see the defender always lose in situations like that regardless of the acceleration of both players

 

I think it has to be a combination of things going on, especially with some of the changes in the 23 ME.  There's no 'Defensive Width' option, unless I am missing it and these days anything is possible, but we do have the trap inside/outside options, and I am not sure what  effect, if any, attacking width has on the overall shape of the team in all phases.  Then there are PI's as well, but those weren't in play here, but the transition from attack to defense was pretty quick, and that has to play a factor in what happened.

I've gone back and watched that video more than a few times, and find myself wishing it were in 2d, because I think 3d tilt is skewing some things visually, but the one thing we know the RB doing wrong is at about 7 seconds, when he's facing towards the sidelines when the ball is being lumped down the field, then at about 8 seconds he turns around and backs up.  I don't think that's an animation error, more like he failed his 'positioning' roll and is trying to recover from it.  From a tactics point of view, at this point how far off the line is he supposed to be on?  And at what point in this sequence is he supposed to start to move narrower?

Jellico

[blejdek]

6 hours ago, Jellico73 said:

I think it has to be a combination of things going on, especially with some of the changes in the 23 ME.  There's no 'Defensive Width' option, unless I am missing it and these days anything is possible, but we do have the trap inside/outside options, and I am not sure what  effect, if any, attacking width has on the overall shape of the team in all phases.  Then there are PI's as well, but those weren't in play here, but the transition from attack to defense was pretty quick, and that has to play a factor in what happened.

I've gone back and watched that video more than a few times, and find myself wishing it were in 2d, because I think 3d tilt is skewing some things visually, but the one thing we know the RB doing wrong is at about 7 seconds, when he's facing towards the sidelines when the ball is being lumped down the field, then at about 8 seconds he turns around and backs up.  I don't think that's an animation error, more like he failed his 'positioning' roll and is trying to recover from it.  From a tactics point of view, at this point how far off the line is he supposed to be on?  And at what point in this sequence is he supposed to start to move narrower?

Jellico

You are not missing it (defensive width), i was searching for it like crazy, but it doesnt exist anymore, i always liked it, was very usable actually against certain tactics, dunno why they removed one of the better orders when you are out of ball.

[kingjericho]

8 hours ago, Aoyao said:

What about the tempo?

Think of this as a rule of thumb. 

Do you want to play a direct, wing play, kick and rush style? High mentality 

Do you want to play tiki taka, short passing looking for an opening, no long shots, build from the back? Low mentality 

[Ferocious289]

13 hours ago, ostkiz said:

Honestly this game actually is rubbish , far away the worst  i remember:  the 3d sucks , the transfer market is zero realistic....its the first time since championship manager i don't want to play the game in my free time.

I give up.

How can the game be rubbish, it got 86% positive review on Steam according to Miles so obviously the game is a masterpiece lol

Edited December 26, 2022 by Ferocious289

[fc.cadoni]

Asking chatGPT to tell me with simple words what is source code, machine code, compilation etc. At the end I have ask him to give me an example of C++ for football simulation game:

This is just a simple example, and a real football simulation game would likely be much more complex and include additional features such as scoring, time limits, substitutions, and so on. However, this code should give you a general idea of how source code in C++ can be used to simulate a football game.

====

Then thinking about how complex is Football Manager with all these data, now I can understand that some aspects of the game is not an easy to handle - tweak - solve. Don't remember where I have read it here, but FM has at least 2 million coding lines - it is such a complex to nail down "fix your game". Appreciate all the work of old and new staff at SI.

Happy Holidays for SI people and all FM Managers out there! 

Edited December 26, 2022 by fc.cadoni

[g1nh0]

13 hours ago, SimonHoddle said:

 

but 23 seems wrong. I’m getting bored of watching world class defenders pass straight to an opponent under no pressure because the ME determines it’s time for a goal. It feels contrived and weird this year. I don’t trust the stats, player instructions or ME. that leaves v little to enjoy.

 

 

Yep had that as well, another good example. Always remember in one of my games 2 world class centre backs deciding to play tippy tappy at the back between them. There was no opposition pressure on the ball whatsoever, just a solo striker keeping a safe distance.

However, the more they tippy tappy'd between them, that solo striker slowly moved towards them (with no urgency, more like creeping up on them but clearly visible to see it happening), and after over half a dozen of needless passes between them, he suddenly moved in between them and pinched the ball and immediately took a shot and scored in the bottom corner.

I've no gripes if there was organised team pressure where they never had time to settle on the ball, or if this even happened a couple of tiers down. But this goal isn't something you'd see with world class CB's at the very top level - which says to me there is something fundamentally wrong with the game at the moment, that quite frankly has to be fixed in the next patch. So the engine will have to change again because they can't leave a game with the ME in such a state as it is.

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by g1nh0

[cpfcrebel]

Honestly the defensive part of the match engine is so bad. You can have the lowest block, no pressing, and sitting back. And I guarantee you'll still get balls being pinged over the top on the regular resulting in goals as though you're playing a Pep/Klopp high line. Really is an awful game.

Edited December 26, 2022 by cpfcrebel

[Etebaer]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb blejdek:

You are not missing it (defensive width), i was searching for it like crazy, but it doesnt exist anymore, i always liked it, was very usable actually against certain tactics, dunno why they removed one of the better orders when you are out of ball.

Try defend crosses - it should do the job.

[Sunstrikuuu]

6 hours ago, blejdek said:

You are not missing it (defensive width), i was searching for it like crazy, but it doesnt exist anymore, i always liked it, was very usable actually against certain tactics, dunno why they removed one of the better orders when you are out of ball.

Wait, seriously?  One of the bigger differentiators of how teams defend IRL is just *gone*? 

[fc.cadoni]

33 minutes ago, Sunstrikuuu said:

Wait, seriously?  One of the bigger differentiators of how teams defend IRL is just *gone*? 

Have been replaced with Trap Inside - Trap Outside

[Lempicka]

I'm all for more individual mistakes in the lower leagues, but has anyone seen one this bad?

I think my keeper may be taking bungs.

 

[GOODNAME]

7 minutes ago, Lempicka said:

I'm all for more individual mistakes in the lower leagues, but has anyone seen one this bad?

I think my keeper may be taking bungs.

 

Seriously if that ever happen to me i will break my desk 

[GIMN]

14 minutes ago, Lempicka said:

I'm all for more individual mistakes in the lower leagues, but has anyone seen one this bad?

I think my keeper may be taking bungs.

 

A classic: 

 

[Neil Brock]

3 hours ago, cpfcrebel said:

Honestly the defensive part of the match engine is so bad. You can have the lowest block, no pressing, and sitting back. And I guarantee you'll still get balls being pinged over the top on the regular resulting in goals as though you're playing a Pep/Klopp high line. Really is an awful game.

And yet in my own personal save, I have a tactic using a team with a low block, lower line and high pressing and I barely ever concede goals in behind, most against coming from crosses. 

Appreciate that's what you've seen, but there tactical ways to negate giving up certain types of chances.