*Official* Football Manager 2023 Feedback Thread

[DMVian]

I really, really like whatever changes they made to fix low block defending. Last game, sitting back felt like a guaranteed L. Now, sitting back and waiting for counter opportunities fees like it really works.

I do agree the game feels harder. And maybe it is just because teams can bunker down themselves and it isn’t as simple as turning up tempo and mentality to beat them.

[GOODNAME]

I dont think the ME is broken

The ME is wayyy better than FM22 but the balls over the top in this ME is really pain in the ass

[The3points]

40 minutes ago, Ferocious289 said:

when you get 2 red cards in one game after recieving 2 red games in previous 2 games in a row inside the first few minutes of a match then you know the game is broken

That 100% seems like a problem with tactics or personnel

[Ferocious289]

18 minutes ago, The3points said:

That 100% seems like a problem with tactics or personnel

Not the ''it's your tactics/players'' spiel. The players that have been sent off do not have high aggression or poor discipline. Neither does it matter what tactic is used or if you have takle harder or stay on feet instructions on PI's, it's happened in the beta and it's a known bug, it just gets more and more frustrating when it happens in important games and you don't even get a chance to take a player off who looks like they're on their way to getting sent off. Litterally under 1 min in the game, a player gets sent off. The most docile player in the team will go randomly lunging into a reckless two footed challenge even when the team is leading comfortably and the game is not intense.

Edited November 24, 2022 by Ferocious289

[warlock]

1 hour ago, Ferocious289 said:

when you get 2 red cards in one game after recieving 2 red games in previous 2 games in a row inside the first few minutes of a match then you know the game is broken

Or, you know, you could do something about that. I've played more than two seasons in my current save and had two red cards in total. Because I watch games, and know who the reckless/aggressive players are, I can tell them to ease of tackles, or sub them off, if they pick up a yellow.

If you're picking up 6 red cards in three games you know your tactic is broken.

[alian62]

Japan vs Germany . ... Japans second goal over the top of the defender who backed off until it was to late . Just saying 

[Ferocious289]

38 minutes ago, warlock said:

Or, you know, you could do something about that. I've played more than two seasons in my current save and had two red cards in total. Because I watch games, and know who the reckless/aggressive players are, I can tell them to ease of tackles, or sub them off, if they pick up a yellow.

If you're picking up 6 red cards in three games you know your tactic is broken.

Good for you.

Most people report they pick up 7-12 reds a season easy and we're not all playing the same tactic

Explain how it's possible to make a decision in less than 60 seconds into a game first key highlight on conphrensive?  the guy gets sent off straight red who has 6 for aggression, how are you going to have the chance to tell the winger to ease off tackles or sub them off?

[alian62]

1 hour ago, Renyy said:

1 datapoint = should happen every week in FM 

It doesn't  for me

[rp1966]

4 hours ago, prot651 said:

It doesn't  for me

I have to concur. I'm playing a high defensive line with 'drop off more' and although teams quite often try hitting a ball over the top, it very rarely comes to anything. When I read the very negative comments about this year's ME three thoughts spring to mind - one is what tactics and what level of the game are people playing (I haven't experienced lower league yet this year). second are they playing on key highlights, so getting a very one dimension view of the game, and three - have I got FM23: Dagenham Dave Edition this year.

I was getting hit with long ball goals early in the save, but I modified my normal 4-2-3-1 to a 4-2-3-1 DM equivalent (using SV in place of BBM)  to fit with SI's new approach to midfielders and I haven't suffered from it since.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2022 by rp1966

[RandomGuy.]

29 minutes ago, rp1966 said:

I have to concur. I'm playing a high defensive line with 'drop off more' and although teams quite often try hitting a ball over the top, it very rarely comes to anything. When I read the very negative comments about this year's ME three thoughts spring to mind - one is what tactics and what level of the game are people playing (I haven't experienced lower league yet this year). second are they playing on key highlights, so getting a very one dimension view of the game, and three - have I got FM23: Dagenham Dave Edition this year.

I was getting hit with long ball goals early in the save, but I modified my normal 4-2-3-1 to a 4-2-3-1 DM equivalent (using SV in place of BBM)  to fit with SI's new approach to midfielders and I haven't suffered from it since.

 

 

The issue is people would rather build their tactics for their team/opponents/preference, rather than having to build their tactics around the ME.

Not everyone wants to play with a deep defensive line who drop off. Ive tried multiple different tactics at multiple different levels and balls over the top are a problem unless you're pretty much camped on top of your own box. Theres an argument its realistic (Saudi Arabias high line v Argentina saw Argentina spamming balls over the top) but it doesnt feel that way when what youre seeing is your CBs regularly running in the wrong direction simply so your opponents can get a chance.

[rp1966]

9 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

The issue is people would rather build their tactics for their team/opponents/preference, rather than having to build their tactics around the ME.

Not everyone wants to play with a deep defensive line who drop off. Ive tried multiple different tactics at multiple different levels and balls over the top are a problem unless you're pretty much camped on top of your own box. Theres an argument its realistic (Saudi Arabias high line v Argentina saw Argentina spamming balls over the top) but it doesnt feel that way when what youre seeing is your CBs regularly running in the wrong direction simply so your opponents can get a chance.

I play HIGH defensive line with drop off.  My tactic is barely different to the FM22 one I used last year, except where SI have altered the tactics screen. The only significant differences are the drop off modifier, playing balanced instead of positive and moving the 2 CMs to DM because SI's interpretation of midfield positions has been changed. The ME does have some issues, and maybe they're magnified in lower leagues, but it's certainly on a par with FM22 and in some ways an improvement.  

 

[themadsheep2001]

Rather than this constant back and forth, it would be far more useful if those getting lots of red cards etc posted pkms in the bugs thread. 

[Tonton_Zola]

My overall perception is that the game has become a swollen, Frankenstein monster of an experience.

Its gut is bloated, its skincare regime has been neglected and there are several half-forgotten limbs that have just been left to rot or wither. 

There is just SO much here, in SO many places, with SO much redundancy. What is the  true focus of the game? What is the engine for enjoyment? 

if I were the boss I would want a total strategic reset of the whole bloody thing - working back from an assumption that c.25% of the edifice actually needs to be trimmed away. Then go back to basics with making the core mechanics utterly brilliant - transfers, tactics, youth development, dynasty etc

I am so so passionate about this game, but something now needs to give. Depth does not need to mean endlessly multiplying complexity! Those 25 questions in a press conference with ambiguous, haphazard or non-existent outcome? They become one question that REALLY matters. Etc etc

 

 

 

[el_manayer]

2 hours ago, Tonton_Zola said:

My overall perception is that the game has become a swollen, Frankenstein monster of an experience.

Its gut is bloated, its skincare regime has been neglected and there are several half-forgotten limbs that have just been left to rot or wither. 

There is just SO much here, in SO many places, with SO much redundancy. What is the  true focus of the game? What is the engine for enjoyment? 

if I were the boss I would want a total strategic reset of the whole bloody thing - working back from an assumption that c.25% of the edifice actually needs to be trimmed away. Then go back to basics with making the core mechanics utterly brilliant - transfers, tactics, youth development, dynasty etc

I am so so passionate about this game, but something now needs to give. Depth does not need to mean endlessly multiplying complexity! Those 25 questions in a press conference with ambiguous, haphazard or non-existent outcome? They become one question that REALLY matters. Etc etc

 

 

 

I think you've nailed it. The game has lost the focus of what really matters, and SI refuses to acknowledge that many additions done years ago are a mistake for a simple reason: noone likes it. The press conferences being the best example of something that is supposed to add realism and role-play but nobody likes it, everyone shares basically the same opinion and still SI refuses to accept it and change it for example for what you have proposed.

11 hours ago, Ferocious289 said:

when you get 2 red cards in one game after recieving 2 red games in previous 2 games in a row inside the first few minutes of a match then you know the game is broken

I personally have many complains with the game, but I don't remember getting even a single red card yet, and I have 2 simultaneous saves one in a Europa League level team and a second one in a semipro league. Probably I got some, but the fact that I don't even remember makes it clear that I haven't suffered anything unusual here

[rp1966]

3 hours ago, Tonton_Zola said:

My overall perception is that the game has become a swollen, Frankenstein monster of an experience.

Its gut is bloated, its skincare regime has been neglected and there are several half-forgotten limbs that have just been left to rot or wither. 

There is just SO much here, in SO many places, with SO much redundancy. What is the  true focus of the game? What is the engine for enjoyment? 

if I were the boss I would want a total strategic reset of the whole bloody thing - working back from an assumption that c.25% of the edifice actually needs to be trimmed away. Then go back to basics with making the core mechanics utterly brilliant - transfers, tactics, youth development, dynasty etc

I am so so passionate about this game, but something now needs to give. Depth does not need to mean endlessly multiplying complexity! Those 25 questions in a press conference with ambiguous, haphazard or non-existent outcome? They become one question that REALLY matters. Etc etc

 

 

 

I've been summing this up the same way for years now - players ask for FOOTBALL manager and SI want to build football MANAGER.

 

[Ferocious289]

4 hours ago, Tonton_Zola said:

My overall perception is that the game has become a swollen, Frankenstein monster of an experience.

Its gut is bloated, its skincare regime has been neglected and there are several half-forgotten limbs that have just been left to rot or wither. 

There is just SO much here, in SO many places, with SO much redundancy. What is the  true focus of the game? What is the engine for enjoyment? 

if I were the boss I would want a total strategic reset of the whole bloody thing - working back from an assumption that c.25% of the edifice actually needs to be trimmed away. Then go back to basics with making the core mechanics utterly brilliant - transfers, tactics, youth development, dynasty etc

I am so so passionate about this game, but something now needs to give. Depth does not need to mean endlessly multiplying complexity! Those 25 questions in a press conference with ambiguous, haphazard or non-existent outcome? They become one question that REALLY matters. Etc etc

 

 

 

I think the worst thing is that player attritbutes don't really translate all that well to the match engine anymore along with player traits and player instructions that you set outdoes not play out on the field. Or simply  the m.e does not manage to translate and represent it as well as it should. For example you can put shoot less often for your midfielders wingbacks and central defenders,, yet they will still persistently shoot from ridiculous angles when there are players ahead of them in better opening positions, or refuse to put in a cross when on the flanks even if you got them set to cross more often. Wingers with good crossing attributes and decision making will still consistently run into the box from the wing, and a player is free in the penalty box, and the winger decides to shoot straight into the side netting or cuts it back and passes it back to a player outside the box.

You can have a 6'3 defender with 16-19 strength who will get outmuscled or lose a header to a little 5'8 average player. Or a defender with 16 pace will lose a foot race against a player with 11 pace and 7 accerleration. Player I.d has become more and more generic where you can't tell the difference between a truly world class defender to a average non league defender or a world class midfielder who has high attributes in long shots and long passes to some journeyman midfielder player without those abilities who can still achieve the same skill of shooting from long range and playing pirlo like through balls. Only the top top players like Haaland, Mbappe, Ronaldo and other high profile players seem to have special player i.d representation in the match engine.

Every other player plays exactly like every other player where an average player can achieve the same level of skill and performance as an elite player on any given match day. I'm slowly realising there is less and less logic and consistency to player decision making and attritutes/traits

 

[samuelawachie]

4 hours ago, Tonton_Zola said:

My overall perception is that the game has become a swollen, Frankenstein monster of an experience.

Its gut is bloated, its skincare regime has been neglected and there are several half-forgotten limbs that have just been left to rot or wither. 

There is just SO much here, in SO many places, with SO much redundancy. What is the  true focus of the game? What is the engine for enjoyment? 

 

 

 

No surprise mate. It’s been eating full fat all these years. ☺️
Haven’t you heard the phrase “full fat FM” before?

We all miss FM Classic, both figuratively and literally

Edited November 24, 2022 by samuelawachie

[roykela]

4 hours ago, Tonton_Zola said:

My overall perception is that the game has become a swollen, Frankenstein monster of an experience.

Its gut is bloated, its skincare regime has been neglected and there are several half-forgotten limbs that have just been left to rot or wither. 

There is just SO much here, in SO many places, with SO much redundancy. What is the  true focus of the game? What is the engine for enjoyment? 

if I were the boss I would want a total strategic reset of the whole bloody thing - working back from an assumption that c.25% of the edifice actually needs to be trimmed away. Then go back to basics with making the core mechanics utterly brilliant - transfers, tactics, youth development, dynasty etc

I am so so passionate about this game, but something now needs to give. Depth does not need to mean endlessly multiplying complexity! Those 25 questions in a press conference with ambiguous, haphazard or non-existent outcome? They become one question that REALLY matters. Etc etc

 

 

 

Have to agree with this.
They have added way too much, in the sense that is half-way implemented and often unnecessary "features".
Old additions are neglected and overlooked as low priority and in the end you will have more and more of a dysfunctional product.
With the size of what FM has become it is increasingly (by the looks and feel of it) exactly what i tried to point out several years ago. Don't bite off more than you can chew.
They're getting to that point.

I'd do the same, as the boss. Sit down and thoroughly analyse absolutely everything.
So much stuff in the game can be stripped down and/or taken completely away. Features that don't work properly. Screens that don't really have a proper function apart from just being there.
Back to basics, as it seems like the basics have been forgotten.
It's fun being a manager, but it feels like the manager part has been neglected for quite some time now.

[rp1966]

21 minutes ago, samuelawachie said:

No surprise mate. It’s been eating full fat all these years. ☺️
Haven’t you heard the phrase “full fat FM” before?

We all miss FM Classic, both figuratively and literally

With FM Classic/FMT the problem was identified, but a separate game was never the real answer - especially one that wasn't based on the full database.  FM Classic should always have been a play mode of the full game that hid all the fluff that's not part of the core team-building and football match playing experience of the game.

 

 

 

[eXistenZ]

15 hours ago, TangoFM said:

Agrees to sell a player, offers him out twice. Accepts four offers for him...

 

Player rejects four clubs and gets pissed...

 

Fantastic...

Editor, its the only solution for this unfortunately.... Its unjustifiable that they raised the price on it with things like this happening

Btw, i had a similar issue in FM21. player wanted a loan, offered him out every week. No offers. Sent him to an affiliate. he refuses that. Then comes september 1st:

"why didnt you loan me out"

-there was no interest

"you're lying, this is unacceptable"

 

Its the total radio silence that is annoying me mostly...

[gunnerfan]

5 hours ago, Tonton_Zola said:

if I were the boss I would want a total strategic reset of the whole bloody thing - working back from an assumption that c.25% of the edifice actually needs to be trimmed away. Then go back to basics with making the core mechanics utterly brilliant - transfers, tactics, youth development, dynasty etc

 

 

 

Totally agree. If I were SI, I'd take a good, long look at whether it might be worthwhile to dial back most of the bells and whistles of FM23 (using 22 as a benchmark), making FM24 mostly a data update, available at a reduced price, and using the extra year to make FM25 a genuinely great game addressing the issues raised in this thread.

[GunmaN1905]

1 hour ago, Ferocious289 said:

You can have a 6'3 defender with 16-19 strength who will get outmuscled or lose a header to a little 5'8 average player. Or a defender with 16 pace will lose a foot race against a player with 11 pace and 7 accerleration. Player I.d has become more and more generic where you can't tell the difference between a truly world class defender to a average non league defender or a world class midfielder who has high attributes in long shots and long passes to some journeyman midfielder player without those abilities who can still achieve the same skill of shooting from long range and playing pirlo like through balls. Only the top top players like Haaland, Mbappe, Ronaldo and other high profile players seem to have special player i.d representation in the match engine.

Every other player plays exactly like every other player where an average player can achieve the same level of skill and performance as an elite player on any given match day. I'm slowly realising there is less and less logic and consistency to player decision making and attritutes/traits

Well said, this is just a massive issue.

For my first save of the full game I went with Everton. Went with more or less standard 4-3-3, no crazy rules, just pressing cracked all the way up, positive mentality, common set piece routines. So no exploits.
Realistically, it would've been some Bielsa-like outcome, mid-table finish with a good number of big wins against similar-quality teams, but also a lot of batterings because it's unsustainable.

Guess what? Third place first season, two EPL titles to follow, with mid-80s points in all three seasons.
Newcastle, Leeds and Palace also made CL in those three seasons. But that's not all, I won two consecutive CLs without ever going defensive.

Going player for player against top clubs and creating some imaginary lineups, I've maybe got two to three top quality players, but still somehow dominate teams with stacked squads and they can't exploit high line or high press at all.
Among all the pretty much bloatware as others said, the game has become a complete joke from tactical standpoint.

Even if we take human managers out of the equation, in 7 seasons I've played so far, most top AI teams struggle in their leagues. I went with EPL even though I'm not a big EPL fan because it's the league with most money and competition, so AI shouldn't fall off easily. Guess what, in 3 EPL seasons no AI team reached 85 points. Not City, not Liverpool, not any other team. With those ridiculously stacked squads. Even City, with Haaland scoring as many as 49 in a season, can't break 85 points.

Which just proves your point, attributes not being irrelevant, but having way less of an impact than they should.

[el_manayer]

17 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Well said, this is just a massive issue.

For my first save of the full game I went with Everton. Went with more or less standard 4-3-3, no crazy rules, just pressing cracked all the way up, positive mentality, common set piece routines. So no exploits.
Realistically, it would've been some Bielsa-like outcome, mid-table finish with a good number of big wins against similar-quality teams, but also a lot of batterings because it's unsustainable.

Guess what? Third place first season, two EPL titles to follow, with mid-80s points in all three seasons.
Newcastle, Leeds and Palace also made CL in those three seasons. But that's not all, I won two consecutive CLs without ever going defensive.

Going player for player against top clubs and creating some imaginary lineups, I've maybe got two to three top quality players, but still somehow dominate teams with stacked squads and they can't exploit high line or high press at all.
Among all the pretty much bloatware as others said, the game has become a complete joke from tactical standpoint.

Even if we take human managers out of the equation, in 7 seasons I've played so far, most top AI teams struggle in their leagues. I went with EPL even though I'm not a big EPL fan because it's the league with most money and competition, so AI shouldn't fall off easily. Guess what, in 3 EPL seasons no AI team reached 85 points. Not City, not Liverpool, not any other team. With those ridiculously stacked squads. Even City, with Haaland scoring as many as 49 in a season, can't break 85 points.

Which just proves your point, attributes not being irrelevant, but having way less of an impact than they should.

I have the feeling than in older FMs attributes were more important. I remember in FM10 signing a creative midfielder, watch the matches and really feel that the guy was something else, with different thinking and passing abilities than the rest. Had a similar feeling with a tall strong forward, which I could really feel his physical superiority and how defenders struggled against him. My feeling is that the game is so bloated with stuff now that influence the calculations, that the attributes themselves have a much smaller weight in the final output. I don't say that moral, team cohesion, etc. should not influence... but maybe it should have less of an impact, so that you see Messi in the field and you feel that this guy is Messi and not another random dude.

Edited November 24, 2022 by el_manayer

[DAZZ67]

Il y a 6 heures, Tonton_Zola a dit :

My overall perception is that the game has become a swollen, Frankenstein monster of an experience.

Its gut is bloated, its skincare regime has been neglected and there are several half-forgotten limbs that have just been left to rot or wither. 

There is just SO much here, in SO many places, with SO much redundancy. What is the  true focus of the game? What is the engine for enjoyment? 

if I were the boss I would want a total strategic reset of the whole bloody thing - working back from an assumption that c.25% of the edifice actually needs to be trimmed away. Then go back to basics with making the core mechanics utterly brilliant - transfers, tactics, youth development, dynasty etc

I am so so passionate about this game, but something now needs to give. Depth does not need to mean endlessly multiplying complexity! Those 25 questions in a press conference with ambiguous, haphazard or non-existent outcome? They become one question that REALLY matters. Etc etc

 

 

 

100% agreed.

It has come to the point where translating real things to the game or even be creative is impossible. In order to win, you don’t need to outsmart the AI, you need to understand how to play by its rules. In other words, when creating your tactics, it does not matter what seems authentic, you need to exploit the flaws in the code.

[SC00P0NE]

yea, I have to join the "attributes don't really matter crowd", too. Work rate, especially in midfield, doesn't seem to make a noticeable difference. I have two midfielders with 15 at WR and one with 10, and yet the one with 10 is constantly buzzing around the pitch in every highlight..

Edited November 24, 2022 by SC00P0NE

[themadsheep2001]

If you think something is a massive issue, would be good to document this with some quantitative/qualitative evidence. 

[Johnny Ace]

23 minutes ago, SC00P0NE said:

yea, I have to join the "attributes don't really matter crowd", too. Work rate, especially in midfield, doesn't seem to make a noticeable difference. I have two midfielders with 15 at WR and one with 10, and yet the one with 10 is constantly buzzing around the pitch in every highlight..

How do they rate in Aggression?

[Ferocious289]

10 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

If you think something is a massive issue, would be good to document this with some quantitative/qualitative evidence. 

Play a few games on this M.E and there is enough quantittive evidence to qualitify the many points raised. Pick any big team and play them against any small farmer non league club and the difference in quality in terms of players skill, movement, defensive organisation, goalkeeping is negligible,

The only teams where this is the exception is Liverpool PSG and Man City who all their players seem to be hard coded to have an advantage over other teams whether AI or human player

[SC00P0NE]

7 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

How do they rate in Aggression?

These two have 15 WR, aggression is 11 & 14 :

https://fminside.net/players/3-fm-23/67293495-pedri

https://fminside.net/players/3-fm-23/2000049413-gavi

Here is Pablo Torre with 10 WR and 12 ag :

https://fminside.net/players/3-fm-23/2000040347-pablo-torre

Torre is way more active and diligent in highlights compared to the other two what I find surprising because his 10 in work rate suggests he's lazier than them.. I would expect a midfielder with 10 WR to stand around a lot more and be generally less of a focal point in highlights..

[themadsheep2001]

18 minutes ago, Ferocious289 said:

Play a few games on this M.E and there is enough quantittive evidence to qualitify the many points raised. Pick any big team and play them against any small farmer non league club and the difference in quality in terms of players skill, movement, defensive organisation, goalkeeping is negligible,

The only teams where this is the exception is Liverpool PSG and Man City who all their players seem to be hard coded to have an advantage over other teams whether AI or human player

I am playing on this ME, and I don't see that tbh. I'm currently running my test save as United emulating Ten hags Ajax, and playing small sides has been like playing against children. I'm not saying it's not there but I can't flag what I cant see. If you've got examples flag them 

Whether you do offer up evidence or not is upto you, but simply saying it and agreeing with other isn't going to get SI to look into it. Give them something to look at.

To give you an example: back in FM17 everyone was playing with AM shadow strikers. Rashidi pointed out that this was because they didn't get tracked by the defensive lines. I was intent on using false 9s, think I was doing Barcelona emulations, and I pointed out to SI the second reason you saw so many AM SS tactics was because the False 9 was too high. Sent in a bunch of examples of where the False 9 was playing on FM Vs how many examples of played IRL. Ultimately the False 9 got tweaked to play much deeper than it had been. 

[el_manayer]

7 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

If you think something is a massive issue, would be good to document this with some quantitative/qualitative evidence. 

How can you quantify that attributes do not matter as much as they should? Or that player should be more distinguishable on the match engine depending on their abilities, just by looking at the match? Honestly, sometimes it feels like it is the responsibility of us players to find exactly the flaws of the game and tell to the developers how they can address it. Even though, we don't get a miserable feedback from them, a simple "hey we are listening". People are commenting their thoughts of the game in this thread, all of them are obviously subjective, but also some of them are repeated basically in every page of the thread from different people. Still, SI does not say a word about most stuff. Some topics are just unspeakable for them. Sometimes issues can be pointed out directly and say "this is a bug and I have an example of it". But some others can not, they are just feelings and impressions and opinions. All of them subjective, but when a large chunk of the player base agree with X not working as it should/expected, or X not being intuitive enough, or X feature being an unpleasant addition to the game... etc. then the company should listen and consider them.

Whether the posts people write here, some of them quite elaborate and takes time to write, trying to illustrate their thoughts about the game, are just lost words in the vast internet or are actually taken into consideration by SI, we don't know because we don't get any answer unless it is a clear bug or unless we are talking about one of the few issues that SI acknowledges and is able to talk about. Or well... we do get some information about the stuff raised here (in each year feedback thread) being considered or not: when in the next iteration of the series, the game still has everything people has complained about in the same state (or even worse, like press conferences having more questions). Then we know we weren't heard.

Pd: I understand that you, as moderator, are just trying to help and keep the thread as useful as possible. The problem is that SI itself does not show up enough, so people get frustrated, the frustration rises to worse and often more aggressive feedback and then you all have an even more unpleasant job. By no means this is a personal message for you or other moderators.

[HighFlyingDwarf]

19 hours ago, janrzm said:

I always felt they'd built this in deliberately as an "equaliser" because other aspects of dynamics like morale seem OP.......

Just looked at the thread link and laughed because.......well how often do we see this. Honestly, issues slow to be fixed and reoccurring in later versions is soul destroying. Is there another meaning to "under review"?

 

Spot where this kicked in.

I sold four first team players and signed four as replacements. Hardly a complete overhaul. So frustrating.

[Johnny Ace]

25 minutes ago, el_manayer said:

How can you quantify that attributes do not matter as much as they should? Or that player should be more distinguishable on the match engine depending on their abilities, just by looking at the match?

Show examples of giant players being beaten in the air by short players, show examples of rapid players being skinned by slow lumps, show examples of mid level PL teams gengenning their way to CL glory with 135 CA players.

It's easy, if you think somethings up, show an example of it. The ME team can look at it and see what's at play making them happen. Maybe players can't be bothered jumping for some reason, maybe the fast player's too out of breath to sprint, maybe stanima isn't being drained enough when heavy pressing for 90 minutes twice a week. They can look at it and see what's happening  

[themadsheep2001]

19 hours ago, janrzm said:

I always felt they'd built this in deliberately as an "equaliser" because other aspects of dynamics like morale seem OP.......

Just looked at the thread link and laughed because.......well how often do we see this. Honestly, issues slow to be fixed and reoccurring in later versions is soul destroying. Is there another meaning to "under review"?

 

Under review means they are looking at it, it's literally under review, doesn't mean it's an issue or not an issue. 

That particular thread is also resolved. You can see the tags 

[Ferocious289]

21 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

I am playing on this ME, and I don't see that tbh. I'm currently running my test save as United emulating Ten hags Ajax, and playing small sides has been like playing against children. I'm not saying it's not there but I can't flag what I cant see. If you've got examples flag them 

Whether you do offer up evidence or not is upto you, but simply saying it and agreeing with other isn't going to get SI to look into it. Give them something to look at.

To give you an example: back in FM17 everyone was playing with AM shadow strikers. Rashidi pointed out that this was because they didn't get tracked by the defensive lines. I was intent on using false 9s, think I was doing Barcelona emulations, and I pointed out to SI the second reason you saw so many AM SS tactics was because the False 9 was too high. Sent in a bunch of examples of where the False 9 was playing on FM Vs how many examples of played IRL. Ultimately the False 9 got tweaked to play much deeper than it had been. 

I'm just making my observation and giving feedback. Not expecting it to be fixed or looked at. I'm not going the extra mile to prove something which I know other players have also observed. I do enough things for the fm community and from the beta testing peroid pre release where many users flagged up issues as voluntare testers and then they later find out they not even given a log change update at full release,  i feel it's not my obligation nor do I feel it a worthwhile endearer to recreat scenarios to report it as a bug, which I believe will just up going into the archives of ''under review'' until fm 2025.

Maybe if I was getting paid to report bugs or if I knew with certaintly they'd be addressed I'd be more than willing to provide, screenshots, pkms, save files, statistics the full works. Since that isn't the case I will just outline my observations in the hope others can articulate similar issues so there is enough noise for SI to take notice one day.

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, Ferocious289 said:

I'm just making my observation and giving feedback. Not expecting it to be fixed or looked at. I'm not going the extra mile to prove something which I know other players have also observed. I do enough things for the fm community and from the beta testing peroid pre release where many users flagged up issues as voluntare testers and then they later find out they not even given a log change update at full release,  i feel it's not my obligation nor do I feel it a worthwhile endearer to recreat scenarios to report it as a bug, which I believe will just up going into the archives of ''under review'' until fm 2025.

Maybe if I was getting paid to report bugs or if I knew with certaintly they'd be addressed I'd be more than willing to provide, screenshots, pkms, save files, statistics the full works. Since that isn't the case I will just outline my observations in the hope others can articulate similar issues so there is enough noise for SI to take notice one day.

SI don't just work on who makes the loudest noise. 1 person with good qualitative feedback, will be far more useful to them than 10 people agreeing with each other and nothing between them. Like I say, up to you whether you flag it or not, changes little for me personally 

[el_manayer]

12 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

SI don't just work on who makes the loudest noise. 1 person with good qualitative feedback, will be far more useful to them than 10 people agreeing with each other and nothing between them. Like I say, up to you whether you flag it or not, changes little for me personally 

Again giving the impression that things don't get fix because we do not work hard enough for it.

 

27 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Show examples of giant players being beaten in the air by short players, show examples of rapid players being skinned by slow lumps, show examples of mid level PL teams gengenning their way way to CL glory with 135 CA players.

It's easy, if you think somethings up, show an example of it. The ME team can look at it and see what's at play making them happen. Maybe players can't be bothered jumping for some reason, maybe the fast player's too out of breath to sprint, maybe stanima isn't being drained enough when heavy pressing for 90 minutes twice a week. They can look at it and see what's happening  

I can have an example of one slower player reaching the ball faster than an apparently quicker player, but that would prove nothing even if I have 10 examples. Can I have an example of a creative player not being creative enough? I agreed with the users above that the attributes seem to matter less than I think they should, and that in older (much older) iterations of the game I did not have this feeling. I even say why I think this would happen, but I have no idea neither can I  prove it without seeing the math that actually goes into the match engine, which obviously I have no idea. How could I? I am doing my best writing my impressions here, but this is a far as I go. I don't have time for more, and it should not rely on us to tell SI how to fix his game.

Edited November 24, 2022 by el_manayer

[themadsheep2001]

2 minutes ago, el_manayer said:

Again giving the impression that things don't get fix because we do not work hard enough for it.

 

I can have an example of one slower player reaching the ball faster than an apparently quicker player, but that would prove nothing even if I have 10 examples. Can I have an example of a creative player not being creative enough? I agreed with the users above that the attributes seem to matter less than I think they should, and that in older (much older) iterations of the game I did not have this feeling. I even say why I think this would happen, but I

Don't misrepresent my words, I was very clear and won't have them twisted. It's about giving them something to actually look at, and investigate 

[Rashidi]

20 minutes ago, Ferocious289 said:

Since that isn't the case I will just outline my observations in the hope others can articulate similar issues so there is enough noise for SI to take notice one day.

The more noise being generated doesn't mean its an issue SI will look at. SI do track how people are performing with the game. They do know what the win ratio of human managers is. And internally and with a core group of testers they have benchmarks they will set to see if the game is playing right.  Not everyone will play the game the same way.  In this match engine, issues were flagged and raised. SI react to bug reports not to "feelings". Make the group louder by adding more people won't make it any better. 

Yes this is the feedback thread and SI will evaluate the feedback on the thread to get the general feel of the game, they also have internal and external testers who will give feedback too. And some of the feedback can be very critical but constructive, which result in detailed bug reports SI will review and react to. And that is something they can work with.  With the fixes they might put in as a result, don't be surprised if this version of the game becomes harder to play with it, and when the defending gets improved which it undoubtably will, there will be feedback along the likes of "my strikers can't score" or "why do I need to make changes to my tactic to hold onto a lead". Its just the way these kind of things work.  And yes SI are hard at work with the game, its just this: If you feel strongly that something should play in a specific way, eg. a role, raise a bug report, because you could be a unique player playing it in a unique way.

[Johnny Ace]

10 minutes ago, el_manayer said:

I can have an example of one slower player reaching the ball faster than an apparently quicker player, but that would prove nothing even if I have 10 examples. 

Like mentioned, if you think that's not right, you can log it to be looked at it. If it's once in 10, it's probably not a bug, the player's tired, not interested or isn't trying, plus it's not always Pace vs Pace 

If it's happening 9 out of 10 times, then something could be up 

Like the jumping example, Peter Crouch was 6'7 and lousy in the air, why? He had the build of a rake and would get out muscled every time vs a centre back 

10 minutes ago, el_manayer said:

Can I have an example of a creative player not being creative enough? 

Watch him, note where he's not pulling the strings or doing what you expect from him, note when he could be doing more. If it's obvious, you can pick out a few examples 

[el_manayer]

4 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

The more noise being generated doesn't mean its an issue SI will look at. SI do track how people are performing with the game. They do know what the win ratio of human managers is. And internally and with a core group of testers they have benchmarks they will set to see if the game is playing right.  Not everyone will play the game the same way.  In this match engine, issues were flagged and raised. SI react to bug reports not to "feelings". Make the group louder by adding more people won't make it any better.

I mean, you are defining what a feedback is: people feelings about the game. Otherwise what is this thread for? If there is a bug, I can clearly show it. But feedback is not only related to bugs.

9 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Don't misrepresent my words, I was very clear and won't have them twisted. It's about giving them something to actually look at, and investigate 

I don't, I said that is the impression I get when reading that or other similar posts I see here.

And I am done with this thread. I have tried to give my honest personal feedback and the only answers I get is that some of you take it like I want to **** you off or I hate SI or whatever. I have been paying attention to the thread to see if SI would acknowledge that is actually listening to the people posting here. But nothing.

And by the way, the loudest noise is the most agreed opinions. If SI don't agree with them, but they are raised everywhere, it is ok, we can't do more. But it is an important opinion, not just "noise"

[dannyfc]

1 hour ago, el_manayer said:

I have the feeling than in older FMs attributes were more important. I remember in FM10 signing a creative midfielder, watch the matches and really feel that the guy was something else, with different thinking and passing abilities than the rest. Had a similar feeling with a tall strong forward, which I could really feel his physical superiority and how defenders struggled against him. My feeling is that the game is so bloated with stuff now that influence the calculations, that the attributes themselves have a much smaller weight in the final output. I don't say that moral, team cohesion, etc. should not influence... but maybe it should have less of an impact, so that you see Messi in the field and you feel that this guy is Messi and not another random dude.

I think it's a natural consequence of trying to maintain a 'balanced' match engine. 

Definitely agree individual attributes felt more pronounced in the older games, but they also had glaring exploits or styles of play that were completely dominant. Very often all you needed to be successful was to feed a pacey striker through ball after through ball, there wasn't any real tactical depth to it. 

FM 13 was where it started to shift away from individuality to more of a team game. Suddenly less space available to exploit or players to dance through, so you need to maneuver the team as a whole to get result. Overall it made the game a lot more tactical , challenging, and tbf realistic, but unfortunately it also lost much of the magic moments of individual brilliance. 

If there was one underlying aspect of the current ME that I don't enjoy it's the aversion to congested areas. Players will completely lock up if faced with physical opposition, and rather than take-on or try to play through, too often they'll just turn around and opt for the safe ball back. Maybe that is the best option the majority of the time, but flair players should absolutely attempt risk-taking actions to try and break a deadlock.  

[dannyfc]

8 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Like the jumping example, Peter Crouch was 6'7 and lousy in the air, why? He had the build of a rake and would get out muscled every time vs a centre back 

Off-topic and I actually agree with the sentiment, but just to note Crouch actually has the highest number of headed goals in PL history. I only know this as I made the same point about him being poor in the air despite his height before someone else corrected me! 

[jacob_m_mack]

I think re: the attributes don't matter & the inability to distinguish elite players question, the biggest problem for me is that certain mental attributes (some of which are weighted very highly in the CA formula) have very nebulous effects. For lots of attributes I know they have persistent effects throughout (pace, acceleration), have persistent effects when a player is in a a certain state (dribbling), resolve contests between players (jumping reach), or they impact a players performance at completing certain actions (passing, finishing, first touch). I know for certain that these attributes are doing things, they are tangible, these things make the player better, they increase the chances of my team scoring and reduce the chances of the other team scoring.

It's true for some mental attributes as well: Composure for example is a mix between state based persistent effect and success chance & degree on actions, as it impacts a player's ability to complete all actions taken under pressure. The tangible effect of composure is why many people point to it as one of the most important mental attributes year after year.

The flip side is something like Decisions, if we take the attribute description for Decisions at it's word then it primarily impacts player behaviour and doesn't have an actual tangible, measurable, consistent impact. The thing is SI, who are a bunch of game developers, are never going to be able to model a decision making process that has a substantial impact on the result of an elite level football match. I'm not saying this to slight them, the majority of professional football players & managers could not do this even if they had the inclination and could code like game devs. It's a process that for people who aren't truly elite level footballers may as well be arcane knowledge. The same is true for an attribute like Positioning. And if these attributes are in fact primarily behavioural, then that has run-off effects on the majority of mental attributes. If a player has elite vision but they are making their passing decisions with a game dev's brain then the impact of elite vision is lessened. If the game is handing players with good anticipation advanced warning of what's about to happen it matters alot less if they they're using a game dev's decision making and positioning to react to that knowledge. If a player is known for popping up to make clutch tackles and interceptions despite mediocre physicals because of their positioning, decision-making and work rate then they will seem much more like a slow headless chicken in FM, because their elite level decision making and position making has been all but lost. And so on and so on.

The key (and maybe this is already in the game, who knows, I can't see the code) is that no attributes impacting CA can be primarily behavioural, because SI does not have the means to model behaviour equivalent to a top level pro in that it can substantially change the outcome of matches. Again, this isn't a failure on SI's part and no one should expect them to be able to do this. But they can't give "Decisions" a weighting of 8.0 in the CA formula (and thus indirectly siphon points away from crucial attributes) if it's just going to impact a player's decision making. It needs to have a tangible, measurable impact if it's going to be that "important".

Just throwing it out there as an example of what it could do: maybe decisions lets a player "re-roll failures". Like say a player with high decisions attempts a high-risk, high-reward pass and the engine initially determines that pass is intercepted. Upon the initial failure of the pass roll a test for the player's decisions and if they roll high enough then the pass actually completes. This could mirror the fact that poor decision makers on a football pitch often take either regressive or high-risk, high-reward actions, while good decision makers will somehow find a way to take low-risk, high-reward actions. As game developers and not-football pros SI will have a hard time identifying how exactly these players consistently find these passes (and again we shouldn't blame them for that, I can't do it either), but they can take steps that will simulate their impact if not the actual process.

[Steve1977beyond]

There's a reason why despite owning FM21 and FM22, I always go back to FM18 Touch.

 

So much more fun with a stripped back game and prefer the older interface too. The new tactics screen I struggle with (FM18 is one screen for all options  FM20+ and it's myriad of with ball  in transition etc is just asked for trouble) and the match day interface needs unofficial panel mods to make it playable.

 

Really wanted to get FM23, but it sounds a complete nightmare and sounds like the blue touch paper has been out with its core user base

Edited November 24, 2022 by Steve1977beyond

[dannyfc]

9 minutes ago, jacob_m_mack said:

I think re: the attributes don't matter & the inability to distinguish elite players question, the biggest problem for me is that certain mental attributes (some of which are weighted very highly in the CA formula) have very nebulous effects. For lots of attributes I know they have persistent effects throughout (pace, acceleration), have persistent effects when a player is in a a certain state (dribbling), resolve contests between players (jumping reach), or they impact a players performance at completing certain actions (passing, finishing, first touch). I know for certain that these attributes are doing things, they are tangible, these things make the player better, they increase the chances of my team scoring and reduce the chances of the other team scoring.

It's true for some mental attributes as well: Composure for example is a mix between state based persistent effect and success chance & degree on actions, as it impacts a player's ability to complete all actions taken under pressure. The tangible effect of composure is why many people point to it as one of the most important mental attributes year after year.

The flip side is something like Decisions, if we take the attribute description for Decisions at it's word then it primarily impacts player behaviour and doesn't have an actual tangible, measurable, consistent impact. The thing is SI, who are a bunch of game developers, are never going to be able to model a decision making process that has a substantial impact on the result of an elite level football match. I'm not saying this to slight them, the majority of professional football players & managers could not do this even if they had the inclination and could code like game devs. It's a process that for people who aren't truly elite level footballers may as well be arcane knowledge. The same is true for an attribute like Positioning. And if these attributes are in fact primarily behavioural, then that has run-off effects on the majority of mental attributes. If a player has elite vision but they are making their passing decisions with a game dev's brain then the impact of elite vision is lessened. If the game is handing players with good anticipation advanced warning of what's about to happen it matters alot less if they they're using a game dev's decision making and positioning to react to that knowledge. If a player is known for popping up to make clutch tackles and interceptions despite mediocre physicals because of their positioning, decision-making and work rate then they will seem much more like a slow headless chicken in FM, because their elite level decision making and position making has been all but lost. And so on and so on.

The key (and maybe this is already in the game, who knows, I can't see the code) is that no attributes impacting CA can be primarily behavioural, because SI does not have the means to model behaviour equivalent to a top level pro in that it can substantially change the outcome of matches. Again, this isn't a failure on SI's part and no one should expect them to be able to do this. But they can't give "Decisions" a weighting of 8.0 in the CA formula (and thus indirectly siphon points away from crucial attributes) if it's just going to impact a player's decision making. It needs to have a tangible, measurable impact if it's going to be that "important".

Just throwing it out there as an example of what it could do: maybe decisions lets a player "re-roll failures". Like say a player with high decisions attempts a high-risk, high-reward pass and the engine initially determines that pass is intercepted. Upon the initial failure of the pass roll a test for the player's decisions and if they roll high enough then the pass actually completes. This could mirror the fact that poor decision makers on a football pitch often take either regressive or high-risk, high-reward actions, while good decision makers will somehow find a way to take low-risk, high-reward actions. As game developers and not-football pros SI will have a hard time identifying how exactly these players consistently find these passes (and again we shouldn't blame them for that, I can't do it either), but they can take steps that will simulate their impact if not the actual process.

I understand your train of thought, but by that logic - anticipation and positioning would have no material benefit and you'd be better of opting for players with lower values with the CA spent elsewhere.

On the contrary,  I find both anticipation and positioning almost the highest performance indicator. Maybe since theyre coded in the manner you alluded to, but it ensures the players is more likely to be first to the ball which is crucial.

Decisions I'm still undecided on as it's much more nebulous.  My current best player has high decision making for that level, but unsure whether that's just coincidental. 

[jacob_m_mack]

2 minutes ago, dannyfc said:

I understand your train of thought, but by that logic - anticipation and positioning would have no material benefit and you'd be better of opting for players with lower values with the CA spent elsewhere.

On the contrary,  I find both anticipation and positioning almost the highest performance indicator. Maybe since theyre coded in the manner you alluded to, but it ensures the players is more likely to be first to the ball which is crucial.

Decisions I'm still undecided on as it's much more nebulous.  My current best player has high decision making for that level, but unsure whether that's just coincidental. 

No you're absolutely right about anticipation, If I had to guess anticipation works as I said in the post you quoted: the game essentially knows what's going to happen in advance of it happening, and it tips high anticipation players off. If it knows a player is going to make a certain pass then it can tell a high anticipation player "this guy is going to make this pass" and then they can react accordingly, eg. if they have the necessary pace, acceleration and work rate then maybe they can step into the passing lane and intercept. So anticipation is definitely one of the mental attributes that matters, I just think that if Decisions and Positioning are what they say on the tin and don't have actual tangible impacts then it reduces how much of an impact Anticipation can have. eg. if you know a pass is coming but you have the Positioning of a game dev instead of the Positioning of an elite DM then it might not matter, because you won't pre-emptively be in a position where you can act on that knowledge and step in to intercept the pass.

And it's just anecdotal but I really do think Positioning is borderline worthless based on my experiences with the game. Of course you've got anecdotal evidence to the contrary, not going to knock that, but I don't know if there's really an effective way to test these things (and I certainly don't have the patience to do it, not my job). And unless someone from SI comes out and says what Positioning actually does then we won't know what it actually does and who's right, because the tooltip is very vague.

[Johnny Ace]

Another point on attributes, remember, they're not 1-20, they're 1-200.

14 vs 15 could be 149 vs 151 

[zindrinho]

53 minutes ago, el_manayer said:

 I have been paying attention to the thread to see if SI would acknowledge that is actually listening to the people posting here. But nothing.

And by the way, the loudest noise is the most agreed opinions. If SI don't agree with them, but they are raised everywhere, it is ok, we can't do more. But it is an important opinion, not just "noise"

If you've been paying attention to this thread I'm sure you've seen SI answer over and over again that this thread is for feedback, and that the bugtracker is for bug tracking. I too have been paying attention to this thread, and it seems to me most people arent taking in the answers they are given.

If I had a dollar for every time someone here asks "why wont SI say anything about when the new patch will be out"....

And lastly, the loudest noise here is rarely the most agreed with opinions, I think a lot of users here have given up on the noisy gang, its all ruckus and no content. Like it's been said here previously, its hard for SI to fix your feelings of the game, if you want something fixed you need to bring examples and post in the bugtracker. But no one seems interested in doing that, so its hard to take them seriously, or as doing anything other than venting/whining.

When everything is a bug, nothing is a bug. "the well known 2 red cards within 1 minute of every game bug" as it was recently said, most people see that as just venting/whining, while a small group of people agree because its criticism of the game, no matter how valid it may be or not.

I for one am glad SI stated here that they dont necessarily listen to the most noisy crowd but rather the one who brings legitimate claims and back them up with examples. I win too much/ I lose too much/ I dont have enough injuries/ all my players get injured/ my players only get injured when I have important games/ my strikers dont score/ my strikers are the only ones who score.
Just imagine SI adjusting the game for every outburst you see here, or with every outburst that get some upvotes, it'd be a true mess.

[janrzm]

1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Under review means they are looking at it, it's literally under review, doesn't mean it's an issue or not an issue. 

That particular thread is also resolved. You can see the tags 

Its catagorised as a "Known issue" which alludes to it being a problem. Are you saying the thread is resolved but the issue isn't.