Does Anyone Else Share This Frustration? *My Current Tactic Is Now Included For Opinions*

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

Hi everyone

 

I dont mean this to come over as a rant, but im not enjoying this version of FM very much, and im starting to not really enjoy the game itself very much anymore.

I think my problem is unlike 99.9% of computer games, im not in control of what goes on in the game. Success or failure isnt solely down to my competency at the game, success depends on the players in the game carrying out what I want them to do effectively. And, as in real life football, often they cant.

Its the feeling of losing games and not being able to do anything about it thats bogging me down. And it usually manifests itself in me wanting to manage in countries I know nothing about, so a defeat doesnt hurt because I dont know what the real game between those teams would look like.

I just wanted to ask (and given this forum is hardcore players probably not) does anyone ever get this burnout type feeling? It just feels like you immerse yourself in knowledge and know about real football, and yet STILL never get any better at the game, it just gets draining to the point of ive no idea who to manage or what to do. If you manage a top team, you win in spite of your tactics, because your players are just very good.

Im really struggling. Does anyone else get this way?

[crusadertsar]

I think you have unrealistic expectations. The game simulates sports management. So of course you don't have 100% agency. It's like managing 20 little kids during a primary school theater production. Something will inevitably go wrong but your job is to make sure they follow the script and doesn't go to ***** too much. 

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

4 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

I think you have unrealistic expectations. The game simulates sports management. So of course you don't have 100% agency. It's like managing 20 little kids during a primary school theater production. Something will inevitably go wrong but your job is to make sure they follow the script and doesn't go to ***** too much. 

I think this is fair, it just never seems like REAL football to me. Its hard to explain.

Its hard to explain why I struggle to sit through 15-20 inevitable defeats a season for example, as a poor team. It just feels counter intuitive to watch your team losing on a screen. I find it hard to put into words.

Sorry for ranting.

[crusadertsar]

4 minutes ago, Lesterfan_Cambiasso said:

I think this is fair, it just never seems like REAL football to me. Its hard to explain.

Its hard to explain why I struggle to sit through 15-20 inevitable defeats a season for example, as a poor team. It just feels counter intuitive to watch your team losing on a screen. I find it hard to put into words.

Sorry for ranting.

And how is "real" football supposed to be? Find a magically good overpowered tactic and just roll over the competition? 

There are multitude of factors influencing real football and your opposition is only one of them.

Edited November 7, 2022 by crusadertsar

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

24 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

And how is "real" football supposed to be? Find a magically good overpowered tactic and just roll over the competition? 

There are multitude of factors influencing real football and your opposition is only one of them.

No, but in real football i think its easier to communicate changes and see different patterns of play. 

Watching in 2D or 3D, neither sink in. The data analysis doesnt really sink in either.

In real football it just seems far easier to see what each player does, when you watch the whole pitch and interactions of the players.

[CARRERA]

I think you fell for the illusion, that players IRL do what they were meant to do. But they don’t very often and managers do state that after matches were performance was poorly.

But I agree, that it can be frustrating if you want to simulate real life 100% as FM still remains a game.

I usually look at it as „my own story of team X“. I usually try to find my own tactical approach and don’t really mess around with how and who that team would play irl. I rather simulate their transfer strategy in terms of age structure of the squad or from which region / nation they usually sign. 

 

[eXistenZ]

I think two factors play here. On the one side its still a simulator based on real life. So there are power comparisons to be respected. You cant expect to make lorient become the dominant power house in france in 3 years, Or win a serie A title with monza right away. this isnt fifa. And sometimes the rng just goes badly, and sometimes good. And then its important to distinguish that because you were lucky, you suddenly have found the magic key/tactic that will fix everything.

 

On the other hand, there are definitly some inexplainable things happening that warrant frustration; two simple examples.

-For every defensive free kick, i have at least 1 or two players on the edge of the area. Yet i have conceded about 4-5 goals this season where an indirect free kick was passed to an unmarked player at the edge of the box.....This has been an issue for at least since fm21 and hasnt been fixed

-I have a big tall target forward in my team (jumping reach 19, strenght and balance 14), so i ask the keeper to distribute to him. Yet constantly he kicks it to the side. Now he isnt worldclass, but surely you dont need to be manuel neuer to kick the ball vaguely into a straight line?

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

I appreciate all the feedback. I think some elements of the game are pretty silly to be honest.

When people say things like "low blocks are good this year"....that instantly suggests the game is bad to me because it implies low blocks must have been worse a previous year. A low block is a low block, it should work the same across all versions, end of. Same with a high press.

Stuff like having to train a player to be able to move from the outside of the pitch inwards for example, and it take him 6 months to work this out. And the coach saying i doubt he will be able to learn this, its not worth it. I mean like....lads....im asking you to move from one position and go 20 yards sideways, im not asking you to perform brain surgery. That should be immediately implemented in the game.

I dont know why they changed defensive width either, that was silly. "trap inside" and "trap outside"....what? makes no sense at all, just have a bar and say how wide you want to defend. If you defend wide youll stop crosses. Defend narrow you wont. Simple surely?

But i also appreciate ive got to be more patient. Maybe its because i just cant devote the time to put into 5 seasons to make an average team slightly above average like i could when i was younger? I dont know.

Maybe i should just accept the game is a bit of background noise whilst watching the telly like it is currently, and not care too much.

Id just like to get back to creating good tactics, but it feels like every single year it just becomes more and more impossible.

[crusadertsar]

11 minutes ago, Lesterfan_Cambiasso said:

I appreciate all the feedback. I think some elements of the game are pretty silly to be honest.

When people say things like "low blocks are good this year"....that instantly suggests the game is bad to me because it implies low blocks must have been worse a previous year. A low block is a low block, it should work the same across all versions, end of. Same with a high press.

Stuff like having to train a player to be able to move from the outside of the pitch inwards for example, and it take him 6 months to work this out. And the coach saying i doubt he will be able to learn this, its not worth it. I mean like....lads....im asking you to move from one position and go 20 yards sideways, im not asking you to perform brain surgery. That should be immediately implemented in the game.

I dont know why they changed defensive width either, that was silly. "trap inside" and "trap outside"....what? makes no sense at all, just have a bar and say how wide you want to defend. If you defend wide youll stop crosses. Defend narrow you wont. Simple surely?

But i also appreciate ive got to be more patient. Maybe its because i just cant devote the time to put into 5 seasons to make an average team slightly above average like i could when i was younger? I dont know.

Maybe i should just accept the game is a bit of background noise whilst watching the telly like it is currently, and not care too much.

Id just like to get back to creating good tactics, but it feels like every single year it just becomes more and more impossible.

If that's how you feel then the game might not be for you anymore. Or this version at least. You could always move back to FM from a few years ago like in 2015 or 2016 where things were more abstract. If you are just looking to mess around and have fun. With much less "background noise" that you get in recent versions.

Edited November 7, 2022 by crusadertsar

[Rashidi]

44 minutes ago, Lesterfan_Cambiasso said:

Id just like to get back to creating good tactics, but it feels like every single year it just becomes more and more impossible

Have you just tried making a simple tactic with minimal TIs and just taking it on a spin on Balanced mentality?

Then start playing around with the out of possession instructions only. Once you’re comfortable drop mentality to see how your side plays out? Or just go out have fun away from the game?

This year a one tactic approach may not work without some small changes. And the only change I see people having to make is how to close out games. 
 

It can be frustrating to see others breeze through different editions of the game, but don’t take it hard. Just step away and do a reset.  Just know that you will get there in the end. Letting your frustration get the better of you is just a clue to step back, chill. 
 

You can always ask here for more help.

[tyro]

As Rashidi mentioned.

I started up my Beta save recently and opted for a preset tactic. Great. My players were starting to get tactical familiarity. And then after friendlies and the easy cup game, I went into the real season in the league and started losing badly. And I wanted to make a change. But what on earth should I change? I had all these instructions that were pre-selected.

I started from scratch. Created my own tactic - looked at the players at hand (since we have little budget I can't really yet create the tactic I want but the tactic the players need :). Then looking at the mentality, I just selected Balanced. When in doubt take the neutral one. From there you can reduce risk if need be or in crease risk if need be. And then I looked at the instructions and added 4 or so that made sense to me. Now, when I play the games I and things go wrong, I can adjust. And this is how you have to an extend "control."

Now playing with a team that is set for relegation (as mine is), you can't really expect to win much. For me, my goal is trying to draw away games and trying to win home games and accumulate some points. I had 10 games with 2 points because of my initial "mistake" to take the preset. Since then, I am 5th in home games but, yes, still last in away games but safely out of relegation zone.

You need to set your expectations and set up your team so that you can control things = you need to understand your team, instructions, tactic, players to have that comfort to understand and affect change. If you have no clue what is going on how can you change anything.

As for the Match Engine itself, it is amazing this year with the moves, goals, passes, that the players are able to do.

[DominicForza]

I do think it is important to remember the game is NOT "real football."  It's a spreadsheet.  An invisible spreadsheet performing mind boggling number of calculation with unknown equations and displayed to us as The Game.  My understanding (which could be wrong) is that the match we watch isn't the actual match, but a visual depiction of the spreadsheet's calculations.  

 

As a long time FM player my fundamental dilemma is how much do I "play the spreadsheet" and how much do I role play "real football."  Seeing the game as a spreadsheet helps me to "crack" the game. Role playing as "real football" tends to be more fun, certainly more sustainable fun.  Truth is I do some of both.  Certainly I learn how certain aspects of the game work and then do what works (for example team/player talks) and others I role play "real football" (for example not using "unrealistic" formations and tactical exploits).

 

I keep using "real football" in quotes for a reason - who decides what "Real Football" is?  In this instance the answer is obvious - SI.  The game is their effort to create a game that is representation of THEIR concept of "Real Football."  The old adage "football is about opinions" is important for me to remember with FM.  Even more important is to remember whose opinion of football actually matters here.  Just as the referee's opinion rules the day in real life (the most important words in FIFA rules say "the referee MAY" given referees' OPINION far more POWER in the laws of the game than most, even players, managers, commentators and the public realize) so does the only opinion that actually matters is that of SI.  THEY decide what REAL FOOTBALL is and then they try to implement it with their complex spreadsheets.  This doesn't even get into the opinions of every individual Unique ID (player/staff) in the game's database.  

 

Thankfully FM is NOT Real Football as I'd never get to manager Maidenstone, let alone Manchester United in reality!

[Abandex]

Hummm i understand your dilemna and i was just like you just some weeks ago. But this game is a simulation based on numbers.

As managers, in this game, you have tools to create tendency. The first question is what tendency do you want to create? A moving one ? ( i want my FB to make runs ). OK do i see him making runs ? Yes/no ? 

I want my team to play short and simples passes. On the screen are they doing it ? Yes/no why?

Adaptation: i want my team to play short passes but opponent is pressuring often. I should probably not let my FB make too much forward runs as they will leave they position early and let me vulnerable on the brake. 

But maybe " passes into space"? Etc etc. You play the game like that. There isn'T a winning formula But u need to adapt on xhat is happening on the pitch.

 

The second question is, which zone do i want to attack/défend? U cant defend well and attacking well in the same time.

For example, CM (d) cover space behing the midfield where oppenent runing midfielders or drop dreeping AMC can play. It can also help in defence. But in the same time, he wont break ahead of the striker. If u had selected a CM (a) i will be able to run in just behind strikers. But in defence he wont protec the space.

[TJR1989]

On 07/11/2022 at 09:26, Lesterfan_Cambiasso said:

Hi everyone

 

I dont mean this to come over as a rant, but im not enjoying this version of FM very much, and im starting to not really enjoy the game itself very much anymore.

I think my problem is unlike 99.9% of computer games, im not in control of what goes on in the game. Success or failure isnt solely down to my competency at the game, success depends on the players in the game carrying out what I want them to do effectively. And, as in real life football, often they cant.

Its the feeling of losing games and not being able to do anything about it thats bogging me down. And it usually manifests itself in me wanting to manage in countries I know nothing about, so a defeat doesnt hurt because I dont know what the real game between those teams would look like.

I just wanted to ask (and given this forum is hardcore players probably not) does anyone ever get this burnout type feeling? It just feels like you immerse yourself in knowledge and know about real football, and yet STILL never get any better at the game, it just gets draining to the point of ive no idea who to manage or what to do. If you manage a top team, you win in spite of your tactics, because your players are just very good.

Im really struggling. Does anyone else get this way?

I think you are right, I have noticed on this year's game in particular, the players do less and less of what you ask them to do on the field. The instructions don't seem to correlate onto the pitch with what SI has said they should. It no longer becomes a game whereby you can change tactic to combat something e.g. stop playing short passing and knock it over the defense as they are holding a high line, instead you just have to work out how the game is setup and find what works which is boring. It should give more east communicable changes, or your assistant / staff should suggest more. Instead when we barely have any shots on target from 10 attempts, all I get is "we recommend working ball into box and increasing tempo" um hello assistant both are already on!

[Delial]

I understand how much this game could be frustrating.

I consider myself as a player who spent a lot of times reading this forum, other websites about FM or football in general. I train U10 and U14 and I don't want to brag but I get much better results with the kids I manage rather than 5-fives stars team in the game haha !

Sometimes, I really play "by the book" and it doesn't work. At all. And I talk with a good friend who doesn't really care about the theory and always play with unreal tactics (I mean, the last one was SK(A) - WB(A) - BPD(D) - BPD(S) - WB(A) - REG(S) - CM(A) - CM(A) - IF(S) - AF(A) - IF(S) with litteraly 80% of the TI's ticked and went unbeatten for 2 seasons in a row without buying Haaland or Mbappe).

But I agree that the more simple you go, the better it is. My "sick of this game I want to win games" tactic is the very simple 451 swiss-knife tactic by @crusadertsar and it is with this very tactic that I got the best of my resultats those last 2 years. Just frustrating that building a team by myself isn't that successful.

[EnigMattic1]

I think, and I must stress that this is solely my opinion here, that over the years, the game has developed a greater depth tactically. Going back to the old CM days when everyone (I knew) played a 4-4-2 with arrows from full back to midfield, midfield to wide forward and both CM to the SC position. Now, there is a lot more options and tools at our disposal which, maybe subconsciously, we feel that we must use. We try to use everything and it doesn't work. We feel like we are somewhat failing due to not being able to make it work.

This is an argument that I have regularly with friends. On a game like FIFA, the players are as good as the person with the controller. Me? I'm that bad, I can play as someone like Real Madrid or Man City and get battered by someone like Wrexham. With FM, there is so much more going on under the hood and there is more of a challenge.

Sure, you may feel some form of burnout but, as people like @Rashidi, @crusadertsar and @Delialhave said, try something different or try something simple and build it up from there. There are always players who 'skip' a version of FM for a variety of reasons. Take things out of your comfort zone, start unemployed and get a job in the middle of nowhere and go on an (in game) world tour. 

And, I'm certain that others share your frustrations. How often do you hear fans say that their team got "FM'd" in real life? That phrase had to come from somewhere.

Edited November 9, 2022 by EnigMattic1

[eXistenZ]

1 hour ago, Delial said:

Sometimes, I really play "by the book" and it doesn't work. At all. And I talk with a good friend who doesn't really care about the theory and always play with unreal tactics (I mean, the last one was SK(A) - WB(A) - BPD(D) - BPD(S) - WB(A) - REG(S) - CM(A) - CM(A) - IF(S) - AF(A) - IF(S) with litteraly 80% of the TI's ticked and went unbeatten for 2 seasons in a row without buying Haaland or Mbappe).

This is something that i find a bit disheartening as well. I like to play by the book and have some balance and "normallity" in the game. Because thats why we like video games and simulations. You put A in and if you follow the rules you will mostly get the desired result B.

But then you encounter people/posts who play some whacky assymetrical BS with a midfield thats totally open, or no support with roles that make any sense and the result is 8-0 wins and players scoring 70/goals a season. 

[tyro]

Rules/Guidelines I have adopted over the past 10+ years playing FM:

1) Stay away from the General Topic Forum (when you go there, you always regret it),

2) This game really allows you to set up your style and, while not perfect, replicates it to a very high degree, and definitely exponentially better than any other football game. I used to play the EA Manager back then and nothing you asked the players to do worked. Fortunately, I went on a trip to London and saw Football Manager 2010? (I think) and after a steep learning curve, I was just amazed that the players actually did what I asked them to (mostly). People who complain, complain at a very, very high level as they are so accustomed to the match engine and don't really have anything else to compare it with. Also, once you see or focus on some bug you keep seeing, then your are just stuck with that, which is why - Read 1).

3) I am by no means any expert and play very casually but with a thought out tactic following "normal" rules, you can have success. If you are in desperate need for some help, then this tactic forum is usually the best to ask and get some feedback.

4) I usually don't like these asymmetric tactics as I like things to be more organized and also I feel it may be a bit too "gamey" for my taste. In the past when I started I did use to play the 4231 with one CM and one DM as it gave more stability but they have improved the match engine and the roles and players' natural positions much more.

5) The most fun you can have in the game is if you take it slower, build your own tactic, watch the players play and tweak it, and then either get the players that will fit this tactic and improve it. I know some like a plug and play tactic, which is fine, but then you will always be a bit lost when things don't go according to plan.

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

16 hours ago, TJR1989 said:

I think you are right, I have noticed on this year's game in particular, the players do less and less of what you ask them to do on the field. The instructions don't seem to correlate onto the pitch with what SI has said they should. It no longer becomes a game whereby you can change tactic to combat something e.g. stop playing short passing and knock it over the defense as they are holding a high line, instead you just have to work out how the game is setup and find what works which is boring. It should give more east communicable changes, or your assistant / staff should suggest more. Instead when we barely have any shots on target from 10 attempts, all I get is "we recommend working ball into box and increasing tempo" um hello assistant both are already on!

I tend to agree, although im a long time FM player, i seem to have gotten worse and worse and this is kind of my experience.

I think from my perspective, the tendency i see nowadays is, you learn the game not so much by reacting to the action on the field, but kind of learning the game parrot fashion..... if the opposition does THIS then the game likes it if i do THAT back. If you put in enough time into it, its more learning how the game wants you to respond, than an actual footballing response, if that makes sense?

I think an issue i have as well is, the bigger and bigger the game gets, its hard to see what is doing what.

A player has attributes.....ok thats good. He also has attributes we cant see that affect the attributes we can see....ok....but unlike real life football we are basically looking at the attributes to get the idea of what player he is, rather than physically watch him train and play. He then has traits which change the way he plays again....I think if it was real life, a player could drop a trait pretty much instantly to be honest if he was told to. He wouldnt have to unlearn in over many many weeks. Or playing in a certain position should make him unlearn it.  If youre playing a striker as an advanced forward all the time, he should unlearn his tendency to drop deep very quickly etc etc.

I also get frustrated at the CLEAR difference between home and away fixtures. To me, its very very obvious the two are totally different for no apparent reason. Misplacing passes just because you are away? missing more chances just because you are away? this makes very little sense to me, sorry.

.......................

Having said all that, its still a one of a kind game that must be hellishly complicated to create, and it does a mostly good job of replicating football I would absolutely agree.

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

3 hours ago, Delial said:

I understand how much this game could be frustrating.

I consider myself as a player who spent a lot of times reading this forum, other websites about FM or football in general. I train U10 and U14 and I don't want to brag but I get much better results with the kids I manage rather than 5-fives stars team in the game haha !

Sometimes, I really play "by the book" and it doesn't work. At all. And I talk with a good friend who doesn't really care about the theory and always play with unreal tactics (I mean, the last one was SK(A) - WB(A) - BPD(D) - BPD(S) - WB(A) - REG(S) - CM(A) - CM(A) - IF(S) - AF(A) - IF(S) with litteraly 80% of the TI's ticked and went unbeatten for 2 seasons in a row without buying Haaland or Mbappe).

But I agree that the more simple you go, the better it is. My "sick of this game I want to win games" tactic is the very simple 451 swiss-knife tactic by @crusadertsar and it is with this very tactic that I got the best of my resultats those last 2 years. Just frustrating that building a team by myself isn't that successful.

You see, this is another thing, youve highlighted a great point there.

That tactic, if played in real life, would never in a million years win an actual game of football. It might finish like 9-6 or something and maybe you might be on the right end of the result.....if your opponent missed all their chances. It would just be a basketball match.

So youre running a balancing act sometimes between playing "realistically".....and losing a lot, which feels pretty hollow.....or doing something crazy to beat the game, which is what you instinctively want to do because you want your input to result in something positive, but if thats the case then genuine tactical theory is completely redundant in the process.

Its a tough balancing act.

[milenec11]

Mates 

this is a game . It’s an algorithm and any algorithm has a solution.

at this time I believe that the AI is tuned up . Especially the defenders . To be honest the soccer as a game has the factor of luck within. But it’s hard for me to believe that this factor applies ONLY for the AI meaning the computer.

I bought the game as preorder so I played since 24th ( if a can recall right ) of October.

the things I have seen in AI favors are countless .

so what we have to do is to let time to pass in our favor and SI with its updates fix some how the balance between AI and player .

as a algorithm we shall find the solution.

[Johnny Ace]

1 hour ago, milenec11 said:

at this time I believe that the AI is tuned up . Especially the defenders . To be honest the soccer as a game has the factor of luck within. But it’s hard for me to believe that this factor applies ONLY for the AI meaning the computer.

the things I have seen in AI favors are countless .

so what we have to do is to let time to pass in our favor and SI with its updates fix some how the balance between AI and player .

Just get this right, there is no AI bias in the game. The Match Engine simulates a football match, it in no way favours the AI. What you suggest is not possible   

[milenec11]

45 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Just get this right, there is no AI bias in the game. The Match Engine simulates a football match, it in no way favours the AI. What you suggest is not possible   

ok not bias but why less anticipating Defenders react better than best anticipating Attackers then?

[Johnny Ace]

5 minutes ago, milenec11 said:

ok not bias but why less anticipating Defenders react better than best anticipating Attackers then?

ME bug, but it applies to everyone, player and AI

[milenec11]

Just now, Johnny Ace said:

ME bug, but it applies to everyone, player and AI

to support my words an exp ...............how in the .....is possible a player as Miloš Veljković with avarage ranking 6.84 in BUDESLIGA'S 7 games can achieve a 8.10 against my team with attackers........Giacomo Raspadori, Nicolás González, Norberto Bercique Gomes Betuncal (BETO)..and say that this is normal 7 games was avg 6.84 and against me was 8.10?!?!?!!?!?

if this exp isn't weird some how and is nothing to be fixed then i play soccer for first time in my 51 years of living

[Johnny Ace]

Just now, milenec11 said:

to support my words an exp ...............how in the .....is possible a player as Miloš Veljković with avarage ranking 6.84 in BUDESLIGA'S 7 games can achieve a 8.10 against my team with attackers........Giacomo Raspadori, Nicolás González, Norberto Bercique Gomes Betuncal (BETO)..and say that this is normal 7 games was avg 6.84 and against me was 8.10?!?!?!!?!?

if this exp isn't weird some how and is nothing to be fixed then i play soccer for first time in my 51 years of living

Why can't he? He must have a bad game against you? What about players that rate low against you that are on good form?

There's no conspiracy against you here 

[DarJ]

4 hours ago, tyro said:

Stay away from the General Topic Forum (when you go there, you always regret it),

This is so true. I’m sure most people would be happier with the game if they didn’t come here

[milenec11]

3 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Why can't he? He must have a bad game against you? What about players that rate low against you that are on good form?

There's no conspiracy against you here 

don't be mistaken

to achieve a avg ranking of 6.8 means that the most of your game was between 6.0 worst and 7.7 best and with me after 7 games with WERDER 11th in positon -2 against goal and 7 points at 7 games with 4 loses 2 wins 1 draw against teams such BOCHUM AUGSBURG he manage to achieve 0.4 points above his best perfomance against me the most natural thing to happen.

you see it as normal that from avg 6.8 to 8.1 .........1.3 above he must score twice catch a penalty but nothing of that happen

[milenec11]

19 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Why can't he? He must have a bad game against you? What about players that rate low against you that are on good form?

There's no conspiracy against you here 

i am not talking of conspiracy here . 

i give you a feedback if something good and unique want to make it better

is not normal each GK to achive it's best perfomance against me .

if you don't tell you the agly thinks that happens ingame then sorry i shall speak no more

to whom it may concern this is my teams results before THE legendary WERDER game

[milenec11]

and this is my awful team.............

[Johnny Ace]

5 minutes ago, milenec11 said:

don't be mistaken

to achieve a avg ranking of 6.8 means that the most of your game was between 6.0 worst and 7.7 best and with me after 7 games with WERDER 11th in positon -2 against goal and 7 points at 7 games with 4 loses 2 wins 1 draw against teams such BOCHUM AUGSBURG he manage to achieve 0.4 points above his best perfomance against me the most natural thing to happen.

It's not quite worked out like that though is it? Check back through his match history

7 minutes ago, milenec11 said:

you see it as normal that from avg 6.8 to 8.1 .........1.3 above he must score twice catch a penalty but nothing of that happen

It happens in football, strikers going on baron spells then out of nowhere will score a couple, it's football.

Because his average after just 7 games is 6.80 doesn't mean he'll never rate higher than that. He could go and do the same in the next match vs the AI

 

[Johnny Ace]

3 minutes ago, milenec11 said:

i am not talking of conspiracy here . 

You are

If you think it's a ME problem, report it here please with supporting evidence 

https://community.sigames.com/bugtracker/football-manager-2023-bugs-tracker/753_match-engine-ai-and-tactics/?advanced_search_submitted=1&content_field_48[1]=under review&content_field_56[1]=1&content_field_56[0]=0&sortby=record_last_comment&sortdirection=desc&record_type=all&time_frame=show_all

 

[milenec11]

4 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

You are

If you think it's a ME problem, report it here please with supporting evidence 

https://community.sigames.com/bugtracker/football-manager-2023-bugs-tracker/753_match-engine-ai-and-tactics/?advanced_search_submitted=1&content_field_48[1]=under review&content_field_56[1]=1&content_field_56[0]=0&sortby=record_last_comment&sortdirection=desc&record_type=all&time_frame=show_all

 

what do you mean supporting evidence ??

take video of my games?!?!?!?!?

[Johnny Ace]

9 minutes ago, milenec11 said:

what do you mean supporting evidence ??

take video of my games?!?!?!?!?

Save your matches, they save as PKM files

Note the match time the ME is doing whatever you're unhappy with

Start a thread on that board, describe the problem, give the times in the match when it's happening and attach the PKM file. It can then be looked at  

 

[EnigMattic1]

6 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

It's not quite worked out like that though is it? Check back through his match history

It happens in football, strikers going on baron spells then out of nowhere will score a couple, it's football.

Because his average after just 7 games is 6.80 doesn't mean he'll never rate higher than that. He could go and do the same in the next match vs the AI

 

I totally agree with what you are saying, It's all about the bigger picture though, isn't it? I mean, you can't really single out one player in a team game. Just because a player has a poor/average run of games, it doesn't mean that they aren't capable of having decent games.

Use Joe Gomez as a real life example. Had an average run of games for Liverpool with a few "highlights" and then goes and puts Haaland in his back pocket when Liverpool played City.

[EnigMattic1]

47 minutes ago, milenec11 said:

to support my words an exp ...............how in the .....is possible a player as Miloš Veljković with avarage ranking 6.84 in BUDESLIGA'S 7 games can achieve a 8.10 against my team with attackers........Giacomo Raspadori, Nicolás González, Norberto Bercique Gomes Betuncal (BETO)..and say that this is normal 7 games was avg 6.84 and against me was 8.10?!?!?!!?!?

if this exp isn't weird some how and is nothing to be fixed then i play soccer for first time in my 51 years of living

Mate, look at the bigger picture. You need to realise that his rating will be affected by a number of factors. I mean, you have only scored more than 2 goals twice (that I can see). Maybe you had a large number of shots on target that he saved. Look at your xG for that particular game. If it is high, he obviously saved a lot. You list your attackers. Even players like Haaand, Messi and Ronaldo have "off days" where they will come up against a keeper who plays a blinder.

Bottom line, it happens in real life too.

[milenec11]

ok ok lets close it here 

maybe happens but happent not so often as in here THIS year.

no why they didn't happen last year FM22 is something that ask elsewhere to find out .

cause if you see my account here this year is my first time that i start or participate on a topic 

and if you see my steam account i play this game for ages

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

Not to muddy the waters here, but I wonder if the reason players seem to "lift" their game against us quite often, is the "enjoys big matches" bullet point on the report card?

Does a player who sees a particular opponent (if thats us) as a "big match" and therefore gets better in that game? more fired up?

Theres just so many unanswered questions within this game, I guess no one will ever know.

[EnigMattic1]

34 minutes ago, Lesterfan_Cambiasso said:

Not to muddy the waters here, but I wonder if the reason players seem to "lift" their game against us quite often, is the "enjoys big matches" bullet point on the report card?

Does a player who sees a particular opponent (if thats us) as a "big match" and therefore gets better in that game? more fired up?

Theres just so many unanswered questions within this game, I guess no one will ever know.

Much like with real life, sometimes, it all just clicks. I mean, we never know what happens at training as far as the other team goes, we only know what our team does. It's like the age old story, a player will go an entire season without scoring, only to score his first of the season against us in the last match.

At the same time, with all the "hidden" attributes that affect a players personality, we don't know what effect any pre match comments will have on opposition players. I mean, if we make a comment about how their striker is having a poor time in front of goal, he may 'up' his game. Same goes for keepers who have been conceding a lot.

[Aandy]

On 07/11/2022 at 09:26, Lesterfan_Cambiasso said:

Hi everyone

 

I dont mean this to come over as a rant, but im not enjoying this version of FM very much, and im starting to not really enjoy the game itself very much anymore.

I think my problem is unlike 99.9% of computer games, im not in control of what goes on in the game. Success or failure isnt solely down to my competency at the game, success depends on the players in the game carrying out what I want them to do effectively. And, as in real life football, often they cant.

Its the feeling of losing games and not being able to do anything about it thats bogging me down. And it usually manifests itself in me wanting to manage in countries I know nothing about, so a defeat doesnt hurt because I dont know what the real game between those teams would look like.

I just wanted to ask (and given this forum is hardcore players probably not) does anyone ever get this burnout type feeling? It just feels like you immerse yourself in knowledge and know about real football, and yet STILL never get any better at the game, it just gets draining to the point of ive no idea who to manage or what to do. If you manage a top team, you win in spite of your tactics, because your players are just very good.

Im really struggling. Does anyone else get this way?

Funnily enough this is exactly why I prefer FM over any other football video game. I really don't enjoy playing a game like FIFA where my own inadequate skill using the controller and different inputs will directly impact the performance of a player who should otherwise be world class. 

 

Much prefer screaming at an AI controlled pixel rather than admit my own inadequacies 

[Hypercane6]

I can relate. Especially being at wits end with the tactical side and seeing no payoff for all that effort. Many here that fancy themselves tactical geniuses would advise you spend hours and hours reading footballing jargon.

When all is said and done though, it’s a game. A game that hinges on ‘metas’ the same as any other game would. To learn what these metas are I suggest you visit this site: https://fm-base.co.uk/forums/fm23-tactics.276/

Download some of the top tactics, load them in, and just watch them for a while on extended/comprehensive highlights. Why are these tactics working? Which role combos and instructions do the most damage? After a while you should memorise a few of the patterns here and be able to make your own powerful tactic without wasting time. 
 

Have fun!

 

 

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

@Hypercane6

 

Upon looking at these magic tactics, the common theme seems to be formations that are often symmetrical, both flanks with the same roles, and lots of attacking inverted roles, combined with absurdly high mentalities, which i guess just batter the AI to death.

So essentially, the middle of the pitch is overloaded to death and the football is just a frenetic mess in the hope of forcing goals?

Or am i wrong here?

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

I actually unwittingly got very close to designing a tactic like this whilst managing a very poor team (albion rovers of scotland):

My theory was that as a team that was rubbish and couldnt defend, my style of play would be:

1) Aim a long ball from the keeper or defence into the middle of the crowd of bodies up front

2) Ball will ping off someone up front

3) Have enough bodies around the ball that the loose ball will fall to my player through weight of numbers

4) Shoot from everywhere when this player gets the ball, and who knows you might score

 

i guess the theory with this tactic must be broadly similar?

[JEinchy]

Aggressive attacking tactics have always done well on FM, but you can dominate on lower mentalities as well, ESPECIALLY this year. They've tweaked how mentalities work. Whereas before you had no reason to play on anything other than Positive, you can now play on Cautious/Defensive and still be attacking with the right roles roles/duties.

Every new FM has a learning curve for me. What seems like a small change often proves important long term and requires subtle adjustments in approach year on year. Once I've come to grips with the ME, I feel in control of what my team is doing. There's an element of playing to the meta since it is just a game, at the end of the day, but every year it comes down to simple football logic.

I'm playing as Braga right now. I started out using a high block 4231 but the performances were patchy and things just didn't seem right. Turns out a bunch of my attackers had low work rate, teamwork and bravery, so we simply could not maintain a high press, on top of low composure and decisioms, so we couldn't camp and keep the ball well. Switched to a mid block and everything clicked into place. It's not because mid blocks are meta or OP or any other gamey thing like that, but because it suited my team better. Now they're more solid and have space to attack during transition when they have fewer decisons to make.

Once you've settled on an approach that works, it's then just about making small adjustments depending on game state. 

I look at those "magic" tactics and just think half of those instructions are unnecessary.

Edited November 11, 2022 by JEinchy

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

Thank you to everyone who has contributed so far.

I thought i would post my current tactic to gather some opinions. And, although the save isnt going as well as id have hoped, it is one that I am enjoying. I am Galatasaray manager, so predicted to do quite well in my league (4th), and my current league position is 3rd, so ok, not too bad perhaps. But heres my furstrations.

First of all, the tactic:

Ive gone 4-4-2 and pretty generic, as I dont think theres a "style" that stands out for the squad. Plus, i think the advice of keeping team instructions to a minimum is sound, and I usually do that anyway. Obviously the players have their own instructions I can go into if you want.

 

At home, fair enough, this tactic works pretty well. But then again, most tactics do. Thats not down just to me.

 

Away from home, we often get ripped to shreds. Its weird how if you look at the results, I can flip flop between battering teams one weak, and getting absolutely battered the next.

 

Ive highlighted the dangers on the tactic. The particularly dangerous zone is the RED zone. We are totally incapable of defending this zone, whilst using a 4-4-2 shape.

 

Attempts to defend the red zone, the typical "number 10" area, have been:

• Ask the back line to push up, to condense the space between defence and midfield - this doesnt work, this leaves space behind that gets exploited.
• Regrouping...... i like this instruction in many ways, but it seems to make the defence too passive
• Ask one of the defenders to act as a "stopper" - this doesnt work, this leaves a gap that is exploited, OR they play passes around him/dribble past him
• Ask the back 4 to allow crosses - the idea being that they will sit much narrower and block the goal....combined with next point this doesnt work because:

 

• From free kicks, corners and crosses, the defence will not push up fast enough after the initial clearance to block the second ball which often means opponents fizz in a shot into the net from the edge of the area.

 

AAAAARRRRRRGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

 

Now one solution to this would be to put a player in the DM position, possibly as a DM (D) or maybe even a DLP (D).

Reason being is that, with the team I have, I want to stay compact and solid, and rely on the excellent quality I have up front to nick a goal to win the game. Seems to make sense? Icardi is great at running onto through balls and scoring, Mertens can get in at the far post from an attack down the right side.

 

The reason im reluctant to play a DM, is because SEFEROVIC acts as the outlet for clearances, to hold the ball up to get us up the pitch, and hes also very useful when facing a team that plays one DM themselves, as he can man mark this position. So hes quite a key man.

 

So maybe im thinking that the formation AWAY needs to be more akin to a 4-1-4-1 so there can be one player utilised as a DM, and seferovic can either be used as an outlet as a WTM, or possibly Enganche to attract the ball towards him, leaving Icardi more space as a poacher.

 

The areas ive highighted in BLUE are also danger areas, but ive highlighted the player next to that area to tightly mark that area and close down more, i.e. the LEFT WING player will close down more and mark tightly in the OPPOSITION WING BACK RIGHT area, so any time a player enters this area, he gets shut down fast. This seems to work well......AT HOME.

 

Im just fed up of getting absolutely shredded. Even our home performances are starting to stutter. Does my head in.

 

Here are our results so far:

 

So two things stand out:

• Defence is too leaky
• Frequent batterings away from home (as usual, in every single team)

 

Any ideas where its going wrong?

Thank you!

[BadAss88]

Trabzonspor and Basaksehir are top teams in Turkey.. To lose from them away from home is something possible to happen, you can't expect to win every game. 

Every tactic has his strengths and weaknesses, so you've got to descide which weaknesses you wanna play with. Use a DM or use two strikers.. Another option is maybe use one of the CM's as a DM? 

[chewbaccaloveaddiction]

@Lesterfan_Cambiasso

 

Simple tactics are good, but don't overdo it. Also you're playing a very compressed low block, this generally doesn't work and is very risky.

 

 

I fixed it, there are many different ways you can do this, this tactic is just an example.

 

So first the formation, I just moved players in the highlighted zone and dropped the dlf to amc, you could also use a 424, but I think a 4231 is more solid.

Next mentality, lower mentalities aren't as bad as in older fms but positive should almost always work.

In possession, some higher tempo generally works, work ball into the box is also good. (Many good tactics also add shoot less often instructions, but keep it simple, I don't want to go into PI for now)

Play out of defense is great, should be on by default unless you want to play hoofball.

Counter + Counter press, always use both and you'll be fine unless you have very good reasons.

Some instruction to distribute the ball to defenders works well with play out of defense.

 

High press, much more often pressing and prevent short GK distribution. Use this as a starting point, you can drop to a mid block, play with a higher defensive line etc.

 

Roles: Your left winger was on attack so I made him an IFa, you can use other roles if you want. Again this is just an example/a starting point

 

Edited November 11, 2022 by chewbaccaloveaddiction

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

@chewbaccaloveaddiction

 

Thanks for a great contribution.

Can i just clarify a few points with your tactic:

 

1) Im surprised you opt for a counter press, as you also use the high press instruction but i dont see an instruction for your back line, which would indicate its a standard back line? in which case, if the opponent beats your high counter press, combined with the midfields sat deep, are you not open for the opposition to overrun you in midfield? that would be my worry initially

2) Right sided wing back and winger occupying the same space on the field possibly?

3) This tactic looks more like a gegenpress ball domination tactic, and this will require high levels of stamina, work rate, positioning and decisions, so im not sure this would be entirely suitable for my squad? I feel like the tactic i use at home, i.e. compact and look to hit Icardi at every opportunity is probably the way to go, but i dont know how to implement this to be successful away.

 

I appreciate the advice if you can clarify further?

 

I think one option I have is to play Torreira as DM(D) as he has traits for that role, i.e. plays short simple passes so into Oliveira or the wing backs, but also has really good mentals for the role, maybe Oliveira can play as a DLP(S) so he comes more into midfield, and then either utilise Seferovic as an Enganche with Mertens as an IF(A), so the ball is attracted to Seferovic as a target man type outlet ball and he can be a little creative from there.

Theres also the possibility to use 1 DM and 2CMs, and on one wing use Seferovic as a Wide Target Man, and have a midfielder as Mezzala and wingback push up to get the knockdowns and flick ons off him, and he could also maybe cross it from there to Mertens or vice versa?

[chewbaccaloveaddiction]

35 minutes ago, Lesterfan_Cambiasso said:

1) Im surprised you opt for a counter press, as you also use the high press instruction but i dont see an instruction for your back line, which would indicate its a standard back line? in which case, if the opponent beats your high counter press, combined with the midfields sat deep, are you not open for the opposition to overrun you in midfield? that would be my worry initially

Yes it's a standard line. I wanted to keep it simple and use fewer instructions. Also when you play with high defensive lines there is a higher risks of long balls behind your defenders, so standard is also low risk. If you want to congest the midfield more you could use a 433, but with 2 dms you should be pretty solid.

 

35 minutes ago, Lesterfan_Cambiasso said:

 2) Right sided wing back and winger occupying the same space on the field possibly?

Maybe occasionally, this isn't always a bad thing and might create 2v1 situations. The winger can also let the WB overlap. If you want you can use a IW or IF who cuts inside more. But I wanted to keep everything as simple as possible and a winger who sends crosses to the striker and IF should be fine. Feel free to tweak this.

35 minutes ago, Lesterfan_Cambiasso said:

3) This tactic looks more like a gegenpress ball domination tactic, and this will require high levels of stamina, work rate, positioning and decisions, so im not sure this would be entirely suitable for my squad? I feel like the tactic i use at home, i.e. compact and look to hit Icardi at every opportunity is probably the way to go, but i dont know how to implement this to be successful away.

This is what generally works with every team. Look at this as a generic starting point, you could also use a gegenpress or vertical tiki taka preset, but I think this is simpler. If you feel like your team can't handle the intensity, use a mid block, if it's too much possession, increase the tempo, etc.

35 minutes ago, Lesterfan_Cambiasso said:

I think one option I have is to play Torreira as DM(D) as he has traits for that role, i.e. plays short simple passes so into Oliveira or the wing backs, but also has really good mentals for the role, maybe Oliveira can play as a DLP(S) so he comes more into midfield, and then either utilise Seferovic as an Enganche with Mertens as an IF(A), so the ball is attracted to Seferovic as a target man type outlet ball and he can be a little creative from there.

Theres also the possibility to use 1 DM and 2CMs, and on one wing use Seferovic as a Wide Target Man, and have a midfielder as Mezzala and wingback push up to get the knockdowns and flick ons off him, and he could also maybe cross it from there to Mertens or vice versa?

Experiment, try a 433 if you want, that's what makes FM fun in my opinion. I just wanted to give you a better starting point. I wouldn't make too many changes at once though, so it's easier to understand what each change does.

Edited November 11, 2022 by chewbaccaloveaddiction

[JEinchy]

My two cents on the tactic:

Low block/High defensive line is asking for trouble. You're inviting teams up the pitch while leaving space in behind. By the time your players engage, the opposition will have played a pass into the space, and you'll spend more time chasing back towards your own goal than attacking.

If the goal is to get the ball to the forwards quickly, you should first identify where you want to win the ball as this will define where your attacking transition will start. For example, you can drop the CMs to DM, then use a combination of OIs and PIs to funnel the opposition into the middle where those DMs will snap and win the ball back. 

DMs/CMs work a bit differently this year. You'll notice most AI tactics using double DMs when they used to use CMs. That's because they push up higher now and act more like pivots. You can easily play a 4-4-2 DM, which would help you defend that space, AND you can use a more aggresive role in the centre.

In general, your role choice, while simple, is too conservative. Your relying a lot on the forwards getting onto longer passes and holding it up because the FBs and WMs aren't going to bring the ball up that often. Good teams will pin you in.