Why FM23 is out of date and a little simple

[marcusnovius]

So I love footy manager, its a great game to casually play whilst watching tv or similar. But over the years I have noticed the "intelligence" of the game is just not progressing, in a world of advance AI, Football Manager is getting left behind. 

Some examples- I earn promotion from the Championship - but players/staff still reject me as they see me as a Championship club - right up to the moment the game updates to the new season... a couple of months after I secured promotion. In the real world people would know this is going to be a premier league club.

Championship season review- I win the league by 25 points. Yet the story of the season goes to Wigan for securing 11th (the simple algorithm that they should have finished 17th)

Players get upset I sell my goalie - because they dont remember a week earlier I signed a superstar goalie. (Simple programming, they have no 'memory')

Player is unhappy I am not playing him in his preferred position, despite me having a world beating player in that position and the unhappy player having his best season ever (they have no clue of whats going on around them)

Using the player search function - the "clear" button still doesnt work (the core code never changes they just polish the game)

I know its just a game (as I say it is fun) and I know the answer is "make your own better game then" I just fail to see how it takes a year to update a few parts.

Sorry for the rant, I guess I just wish there was a little competition out there so that Footy manager was pushed to try and do better each year. 

Edited October 27, 2022 by marcusnovius

[Hansaplast]

As I read "footy manager" is was inclined to stop reading but what the heck.

Sure there are problems with FM but that's also true in every wake of life.

Your post reminds me of a tourist that visits Rome and makes only remarks about the terrible traffic.

 

 

 

 

[sthptngomad76]

12 hours ago, marcusnovius said:

So I love footy manager, its a great game to casually play whilst watching tv or similar. But over the years I have noticed the "intelligence" of the game is just not progressing, in a world of advance AI, Football Manager is getting left behind. 

Some examples- I earn promotion from the Championship - but players/staff still reject me as they see me as a Championship club - right up to the moment the game updates to the new season... a couple of months after I secured promotion. In the real world people would know this is going to be a premier league club.

Championship season review- I win the league by 25 points. Yet the story of the season goes to Wigan for securing 11th (the simple algorithm that they should have finished 17th)

Players get upset I sell my goalie - because they dont remember a week earlier I signed a superstar goalie. (Simple programming, they have no 'memory')

Player is unhappy I am not playing him in his preferred position, despite me having a world beating player in that position and the unhappy player having his best season ever (they have no clue of whats going on around them)

Using the player search function - the "clear" button still doesnt work (the core code never changes they just polish the game)

I know its just a game (as I say it is fun) and I know the answer is "make your own better game then" I just fail to see how it takes a year to update a few parts.

Sorry for the rant, I guess I just wish there was a little competition out there so that Footy manager was pushed to try and do better each year. 

I feel your views currently reflect those of many on the forums at present. You’re not alone 

[Dagenham_Dave]

18 hours ago, marcusnovius said:

I guess I just wish there was a little competition out there so that Footy manager was pushed to try and do better each year. 

Wow, never heard that lazy opinion before. 

[forameuss]

16 minutes ago, fquirogam said:

In the end it feels that there is not quite a reason for you to complain about the game honestly

Really?  You really believe there isn't reason to complain about an AI that lacks any sense of context, or even the ability to make sense a lot of the time?  About literally the biggest, most glaring flaw the game has, and has had for a number of years?

[dannyfc]

18 hours ago, marcusnovius said:

in a world of advance AI, Football Manager is getting left behind.

Any examples? 

All the other attempts to simulate football from competitors have failed miserably in the AI department; Premier Manager, LMA MANAGER, FIFA MANAGER, Championship Manager reboot

Similarly I can't think of any game in other genres that has significantly better AI than what we've had in previous decades. 

Other than initial example which I agree should be a relatively straight forward fix, I think you're underestimating how difficult is to emulate. Anything involving player interaction is so abstract an AI is never going to replicate it to a satisfying degree. The same problem exists in the diplomacy parts of strategy games. 

 

[el_manayer]

18 hours ago, marcusnovius said:

Some examples- I earn promotion from the Championship - but players/staff still reject me as they see me as a Championship club - right up to the moment the game updates to the new season... a couple of months after I secured promotion. In the real world people would know this is going to be a premier league club.

AI is a complicated topic, but this thing... this is not even AI, is base coding. It is a shame that it has happened in the game since ages and is still there.

[forameuss]

16 minutes ago, dannyfc said:

Any examples? 

All the other attempts to simulate football from competitors have failed miserably in the AI department; Premier Manager, LMA MANAGER, FIFA MANAGER, Championship Manager reboot

Similarly I can't think of any game in other genres that has significantly better AI than what we've had in previous decades. 

Other than initial example which I agree should be a relatively straight forward fix, I think you're underestimating how difficult is to emulate. Anything involving player interaction is so abstract an AI is never going to replicate it to a satisfying degree. The same problem exists in the diplomacy parts of strategy games. 

 

This is a decent point actually.  I would take issue with that particular wording.  It's not falling behind, as it's probably still the best specific example in the genre (or the only one, they killed the rest).  But being the prettiest turd only gets you so far.  What we currently have is massively lacking - plenty of bits are going to take real steps forward to fix and are very difficult to do, but there's a few places where it likely wouldn't take a huge leap to design things a bit better to disguise the really difficult stuff.

12 minutes ago, el_manayer said:

AI is a complicated topic, but this thing... this is not even AI, is base coding. It is a shame that it has happened in the game since ages and is still there.

That specifically, yeah, but the "easy" fix to that isn't really a true fix, it's just adding another fixed rule for your agent to follow.  Now obviously to us that still looks better, but it's not true AI, it's not true context.  And that's where the big strides need to be made.  I don't want a player just to be told that you need to wait for x date to evaluate, rather than y.  I want the player to be able to make an educated decision on y date, with the ability to know what the state was going to be on x.  If that makes sense.

Edited October 28, 2022 by forameuss

[SC00P0NE]

yea, there's quite an artificial or robotic feel to many things which are connected to player interactions or current events/club situation.. Makes you roll your eyes quite hard whenever that happens, prolly also reason why many people don't bother reading in-game text like player conversations or social media and complain instead about too many clicks et cetera...

Edited October 28, 2022 by SC00P0NE

[forameuss]

1 minute ago, SC00P0NE said:

yea, there's quite an artificial or robotic feel to many things which are connected to player interactions or current events/club situation.. Makes you roll your eyes quite hard whenever that happens, prolly also reason why many people don't bother reading and complain instead about too many clicks et cetera...

I like to think of it as a million very small and narrow boxes, each one with an interaction or situation in it.  Ideally, you're not having all these individual boxes, you just have one box, with every decision inside it taking into account other decisions to be able to better choose for themselves.  But as it is, you enter the box and you try to "solve" the problem it poses.  And furthermore, said problem is completely abstract and often nonsensical.  And once you do make a decision either way and you leave the box, nothing else really comes with you.

[phantombandit]

19 hours ago, marcusnovius said:

So I love footy manager, its a great game to casually play whilst watching tv or similar. But over the years I have noticed the "intelligence" of the game is just not progressing, in a world of advance AI, Football Manager is getting left behind. 

Some examples- I earn promotion from the Championship - but players/staff still reject me as they see me as a Championship club - right up to the moment the game updates to the new season... a couple of months after I secured promotion. In the real world people would know this is going to be a premier league club.

Championship season review- I win the league by 25 points. Yet the story of the season goes to Wigan for securing 11th (the simple algorithm that they should have finished 17th)

Players get upset I sell my goalie - because they dont remember a week earlier I signed a superstar goalie. (Simple programming, they have no 'memory')

Player is unhappy I am not playing him in his preferred position, despite me having a world beating player in that position and the unhappy player having his best season ever (they have no clue of whats going on around them)

Using the player search function - the "clear" button still doesnt work (the core code never changes they just polish the game)

I know its just a game (as I say it is fun) and I know the answer is "make your own better game then" I just fail to see how it takes a year to update a few parts.

Sorry for the rant, I guess I just wish there was a little competition out there so that Footy manager was pushed to try and do better each year. 

1. If you were expected to win the league and did, where as another team did much better than expected, that would be the story.

2. They may have just ben attached to that specific person, although I do agree that this probably isnt something they should complain about. It is a business not a charity.

3. Players often will want to be played in a specific position to develop so they can move on and play for better teams.

[Oggimon]

Yeah, the intelligence of the game to read 'changes' was terrible a few years ago. The last version I bought was FM17. Had my second division team playing in Europa (won domestic cup). All I could get is an increase of around 1000 people coming to some games. I mean, a second division team in the Europa League, from a small club nation would have been the talk of the town, but there were no indicators.

I assume the typical mode is most people play with the big clubs, so the focus is there, but as original OP wrote, the AI is near non-existent. 

I also managed a second division team in France. Took them when they were mid table and won the league by a single point on the last day. Half of my team were angry at me that I didn't manage to win promotion. It was like, ummmmmm, we just won the league 3 days ago and we all had a press conference about it! How did you forget about this! :-D 

And even so, still my favourite game. Haha

[Xtal]

You haven't even mentioned the biggest AI issue of them all which is squad building. 

The squad building of AI teams hasn't been touched on or improved in over 20+ years. It's absolutely atrocious.
The top teams, over the years, have their squads reduced from 40+ players to around 20-25 players. 

The top teams buy the best young talents only to have them rot in the reserves, while 39 year old Lewandowski is still playing every game. The AI never rotates or manages minutes and will play the same starting 11 unless someone is injured. And old 34+ year olds play over young wonderkids because reputation is overpowered.

These issues have been avoided for so long that i'm certain that SI isn't unwilling to fix it, but unable to. 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Xtal

[busngabb]

I got my head bitten off for bringing up the lack of competition issue. There aren't any other reasonable, big studio football management games out there. It's gone the way of FIFA, which is the only serious game in the gaming market for that style of game. Sure PES exists in it's pitiful 'Esports Football, but no career mode as we spend £35 a year on the game' format, but other than that there is nothing. So EA just lumps out the same game every year with minor changes despite an astronomical product budget.

FM is the same. People are throwing some mobile crossover called 'Soccer Manager' at me as serious competition. And they're quoting the fact that FM is better than that as proof they innovate.

I love FM, but it's more of a cathartic experience for me, it's a constant and I'm a big believer in those in life, you need these things that never change to make sense of life at times.

What surprises me about FM at the moment is that there doesn't seem to be any new versions. There used to be cycles, essentially the same game would release for a few years then there would be an enormous change. That just isn't happening anymore. Whilst they've added tiny news animations to the graphical side of things, it's still 99% the same as it was when 3D first released. Things like stadium models you can mod to make the backgrounds ultra realistic simply should be in the game, as should background images of the actual training grounds, managers offices etc. Little things like that they could throw in quite easily. Even just throwing in the facility to do it and letting the community do the work is an option. Regen face models are another easily fixed issue. I've rejected 5* youth products because of how daft their faces are.

The match engine is okay. But it's iterating the same core thing, which is probably 10+ years old by now. They could go big one year and come up with a newer, much better version. Same with the UI. It's 'good', but could it be better? I suspect it could, I have accountancy software that is easier and more satisfying to navigate.

I'll still buy it/play it on Gamepass though, which I guess is the issue. Why take a risk doing something you don't need to do?

 

[busngabb]

36 minutes ago, Xtal said:

You haven't even mentioned the biggest AI issue of them all which is squad building. 

The squad building of AI teams hasn't been touched on or improved in over 20+ years. It's absolutely atrocious.
The top teams, over the years, have their squads reduced from 40+ players to around 20-25 players. 

The top teams buy the best young talents only to have them rot in the reserves, while 39 year old Lewandowski is still playing every game. The AI never rotates or manages minutes and will play the same starting 11 unless someone is injured. And old 34+ year olds play over young wonderkids because reputation is overpowered.

These issues have been avoided for so long that i'm certain that SI isn't unwilling to fix it, but unable to. 

Definitely. Some daft stuff around players too. You can offer a player £100,000 a week and first team football and he'll choose a slightly higher rep team for £12,000 a week.

I do wonder if the difficulty of the game is liked to the squad building issue. If they made the AI managers and DoFs better, it would make the game intrinsically more difficult. On my game, City have Mbappe and Haaland and they're 12th. They play 33 year old Laporte at left back every week, despite having much better left backs like Nuno Mendes (Who has played 3 times from the bench in 2 years), presumably because his reputation is much higher. Same with 34 year old Cancelo at right back. Mbappe is on the bench every week and yet De Bruyne at 36 never misses a game.

I do wonder if the game is set to degrade in quality deliberately. Purely because if it's past the third or fourth season and the status quo was maintained, most players would give up. If you managed an Everton or a Villa and getting them above 7th was a near impossible task, most would hate it.

[marcusnovius]

Love all the replies, I think this post was just a bit of a rant by me - I have always had a bit of a daydream of how I would like my perfect Football Manager game to be, but each year I find I am playing the same game just an updated version, I get that slight feeling the FM team are "just" in it for the money not the art of making the best version of their game. 

I wonder if a programmer says to the boss- we have a year to work on FM24 - can I take a week to update them player face graphics? and the boss says "Naaaah people buy it anyway, go take a holiday". 

oh! just thought of another one- I change all 11 players for a cup game, then select the "I WANT YOU TO PLAY HOW YOU DID LAST WEEK" - and all the 11 respond well. Even though they didnt play last week. Just shatters the realism. 

Still, it is what it is and I wont lose sleep over it  

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by marcusnovius

[Jass]

Sometimes I am really surprised that some people attack ASAP when someone try to talk about improvement in a stale game, then I remember that 50% of us are a bunch of old fogies that play the game since CM days with many of us afraid of change in life and FM is like anchor always here for some dopamine release in the same old levels 

Just want to say that FM is a very successful financial game over the years, more than many AAA titles out there, and this happen year after year. FIFA is the same. They should have the budget to make some real improvements to the game at least from time to time. But we have the same game for the last 10 years (more FM than FIFA) with additional polish and updated database. Many times I think this should be a scouting tool for real like clubs instead of a game, since its where the majority of the budget go to...scouting!

I only play the game from time to time (some time years) to chill out a bit but even then is less and less. 

Anyway I don't see any big changes coming with the amount of sales FM do every year. With all it's defects it's still an enjoyable experience to casual players and old generation still play it also.

It's like trying to improve football itself, very hard indeed!

[The3points]

With the goalkeeper scenario, I don't think this is too unrealistic. In the Spurs All or Nothing, I remember Sissoko was one of the more liked dressing room members and thus Jose avoided selling him for a while.

People have their friends, and they'll be quite angry if their friends are seemingly forced out for no reason, especially if the friend is competent.

Story of the season doesn't mean best or most incredible season: for example in 20-21 City won the league by some margin, but West Ham in 6th were undisputedly the story of the season. Perhaps one could say something similar for Newcastle in 21-22.

Obviously the season stuff is something they need to fix.

But I feel like you've taken frustrating but semi-realistic things, and complained about them. One major problem would be the promises such as "increase quality in 'position/coaching staff'" which never lets me feel confident. Or the lack of the "I couldn't" options when a player asks for something and doesn't get it.

[alian62]

I had a player that forgot his lunch after I told him to bring it the next day . 

[Artin]

On 27/10/2022 at 14:17, marcusnovius said:

But over the years I have noticed the "intelligence" of the game is just not progressing, in a world of advance AI, Football Manager is getting left behind. 

someone on reddit posted a few days ago their best player wanted out of the team to go to another team bec of lack of champion's league football.

problem is, the team they want to go to will not be in the champion's league next season but his team will be next season since they are currently leading the league halfway through the season!

[lordjanos]

OP has a point. There are loads of things in game I subconsciously do that I wouldn't IRL to beat the algorithm. Press conferences, team talks, training praise, individual training etc. You can't do any of those things organically as praising the kid who has got 9.0 average training rating for 3 weeks gets him randomly angry at me. Putting the midget who has amazing mentals and technical skills onto individual strength training turns him manically depressed. If you don't use calm or no gesture in press conferences with the second from middle response your players get upset. Etc.

Some of this stuff has literally been identical for a decade now. The game is still best in class by a country mile. But it'd be better placed charging a few quid a month to become a game as a service (already does it with game pass now) rather than charging a full price for what is essentially a transfer window update every year. 

[dunk105]

On 27/10/2022 at 19:17, marcusnovius said:

So I love footy manager, its a great game to casually play whilst watching tv or similar. But over the years I have noticed the "intelligence" of the game is just not progressing, in a world of advance AI, Football Manager is getting left behind. 

Some examples- I earn promotion from the Championship - but players/staff still reject me as they see me as a Championship club - right up to the moment the game updates to the new season... a couple of months after I secured promotion. In the real world people would know this is going to be a premier league club.

Championship season review- I win the league by 25 points. Yet the story of the season goes to Wigan for securing 11th (the simple algorithm that they should have finished 17th)

Players get upset I sell my goalie - because they dont remember a week earlier I signed a superstar goalie. (Simple programming, they have no 'memory')

Player is unhappy I am not playing him in his preferred position, despite me having a world beating player in that position and the unhappy player having his best season ever (they have no clue of whats going on around them)

Using the player search function - the "clear" button still doesnt work (the core code never changes they just polish the game)

I know its just a game (as I say it is fun) and I know the answer is "make your own better game then" I just fail to see how it takes a year to update a few parts.

Sorry for the rant, I guess I just wish there was a little competition out there so that Footy manager was pushed to try and do better each year. 

These two, are actually due to the game being intelligent and you not noticing or being aware of subtleties and mechanics in the game:

 

Players get upset I sell my goalie - because they dont remember a week earlier I signed a superstar goalie. (Simple programming, they have no 'memory')

This is because of squad dynamics- its likely you have sold a popular and influential player so only natural that his team mates will be unhappy.

 

Player is unhappy I am not playing him in his preferred position, despite me having a world beating player in that position and the unhappy player having his best season ever (they have no clue of whats going on around them).

Here its easily dealt with as you can talk to him and explain that you cant change your winning tactics for one player. If he is having a great season then why would he not question not being able to play in his favourite position, and also that despite his good form you've bought a replacement that pushes him out of his favoured position? This again if he is influential player, of course he will question it!

 

Its not perfect granted but these two examples are down to you not taking into consideration player dynamics and assuming just buying better players will always be universally liked- there is a lot more to consider when making these moves.

[marcusnovius]

9 hours ago, Artin said:

someone on reddit posted a few days ago their best player wanted out of the team to go to another team bec of lack of champion's league football.

problem is, the team they want to go to will not be in the champion's league next season but his team will be next season since they are currently leading the league halfway through the season!

this frustrates me, im 30 points clear in the championship, in 1month ill be a premier league club, my player wants to leave for a premier league club that in 1 month will be in the championship because they want to be playing in a higher league. Just needs some more code to allow the players to think ahead a little?! :-P

59 minutes ago, dunk105 said:

These two, are actually due to the game being intelligent and you not noticing or being aware of subtleties and mechanics in the game:

 

Players get upset I sell my goalie - because they dont remember a week earlier I signed a superstar goalie. (Simple programming, they have no 'memory')

This is because of squad dynamics- its likely you have sold a popular and influential player so only natural that his team mates will be unhappy.

 

Player is unhappy I am not playing him in his preferred position, despite me having a world beating player in that position and the unhappy player having his best season ever (they have no clue of whats going on around them).

Here its easily dealt with as you can talk to him and explain that you cant change your winning tactics for one player. If he is having a great season then why would he not question not being able to play in his favourite position, and also that despite his good form you've bought a replacement that pushes him out of his favoured position? This again if he is influential player, of course he will question it!

 

Its not perfect granted but these two examples are down to you not taking into consideration player dynamics and assuming just buying better players will always be universally liked- there is a lot more to consider when making these moves.

good points!

i think my annoyance is more that I can't always say what I want. I currently have players unhappy I didnt sign a great midfielder but the guy I did bring in has amazing stats and is performing really well, I cant seem to tell the team "look at this guy hes great" 

 

All good fun!  

[gunnerfan]

12 hours ago, Artin said:

someone on reddit posted a few days ago their best player wanted out of the team to go to another team bec of lack of champion's league football.

problem is, the team they want to go to will not be in the champion's league next season but his team will be next season since they are currently leading the league halfway through the season!

I had that happen to me in FM22.

[zindrinho]

12 hours ago, lordjanos said:

You can't do any of those things organically as praising the kid who has got 9.0 average training rating for 3 weeks gets him randomly angry at me.

Are you playing FM21 by any chance? After they removed player conversation history I dont get angry responses to training praise anymore no matter how often you praise them.

 

12 hours ago, Artin said:

someone on reddit posted a few days ago their best player wanted out of the team to go to another team bec of lack of champion's league football.

problem is, the team they want to go to will not be in the champion's league next season but his team will be next season since they are currently leading the league halfway through the season!

You cannot possibly be qualified for CL halfway through the season, there's still plenty of points to play for.

 

3 hours ago, marcusnovius said:

i think my annoyance is more that I can't always say what I want. I currently have players unhappy I didnt sign a great midfielder but the guy I did bring in has amazing stats and is performing really well, I cant seem to tell the team "look at this guy hes great" 

Are you sure you can't? I've never had a player come complain to me about not getting enough game time without me being able to say "PLayer X is doing so well, I cant just replace him in the starting 11 because you asked me to"

[lordjanos]

1 hour ago, zindrinho said:

Are you playing FM21 by any chance? After they removed player conversation history I dont get angry responses to training praise anymore no matter how often you praise them.

 

You cannot possibly be qualified for CL halfway through the season, there's still plenty of points to play for.

 

Are you sure you can't? I've never had a player come complain to me about not getting enough game time without me being able to say "PLayer X is doing so well, I cant just replace him in the starting 11 because you asked me to"

My recent experience was actually the fm23beta. Praised a 18 year old for development in training after he got solid 8s and 9s while also improving key skills over 3 months. He's very angry with how convo went lol

[JamieTC13]

On 27/10/2022 at 19:17, marcusnovius said:

So I love footy manager, its a great game to casually play whilst watching tv or similar. But over the years I have noticed the "intelligence" of the game is just not progressing, in a world of advance AI, Football Manager is getting left behind. 

Some examples- I earn promotion from the Championship - but players/staff still reject me as they see me as a Championship club - right up to the moment the game updates to the new season... a couple of months after I secured promotion. In the real world people would know this is going to be a premier league club.

Championship season review- I win the league by 25 points. Yet the story of the season goes to Wigan for securing 11th (the simple algorithm that they should have finished 17th)

Players get upset I sell my goalie - because they dont remember a week earlier I signed a superstar goalie. (Simple programming, they have no 'memory')

Player is unhappy I am not playing him in his preferred position, despite me having a world beating player in that position and the unhappy player having his best season ever (they have no clue of whats going on around them)

Using the player search function - the "clear" button still doesnt work (the core code never changes they just polish the game)

I know its just a game (as I say it is fun) and I know the answer is "make your own better game then" I just fail to see how it takes a year to update a few parts.

Sorry for the rant, I guess I just wish there was a little competition out there so that Footy manager was pushed to try and do better each year. 

I 100% agree with you.

[zindrinho]

52 minutes ago, lordjanos said:

My recent experience was actually the fm23beta. Praised a 18 year old for development in training after he got solid 8s and 9s while also improving key skills over 3 months. He's very angry with how convo went lol

ah yes, they can easily disagree on how well their developments been, but praising training levels every week doesnt give a "bah, this again" response from players anymore. Developed well is not the same as trained well.