fm23 still too many old players in squads in future and not enough youth development

[Daveincid]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb obasa_G:

I found something interesting when looking through the database in the pre game editor. When looking through the nations you mentioned that have fast youth development (Mexico, Costa Rica and Norway), I had a look at the value of the youth importance for every club in their nation and I found something interesting. In Mexico about 91.5% of their clubs have a youth importance of at least 10. In Norway about 44% of their clubs have a youth importance of at least 10; in Costa Rica, about 60% of the clubs there have a youth importance of at least 10. 

Interesting! I think that some Nations, especially Norway are known as "development leagues", so they do have a strong tendency for having a younger squad av. age. (See transfermarket.com: https://www.transfermarkt.com/eliteserien/startseite/wettbewerb/NO1)

So I think that in most cases this data is correct. If you compare the av. age with England it get's even more clear: https://www.transfermarkt.com/premier-league/startseite/wettbewerb/GB1

It's no surpize that the biggest league in the world usually have a older squad because this is where the best players are playing, no matter how old they are.
 

vor 7 Minuten schrieb obasa_G:

Could this be added to one of the many factors why youth development is slow in some countries and fast in some other ones?

As far as I know, this has no influence in terms of development speed, it only defines how important it is for the club for developing their own players.

[andu1]

1 minute ago, Daveincid said:

Interesting! I think that some Nations, especially Norway are known as "development leagues", so they do have a strong tendency for having a younger squad av. age. (See transfermarket.com: https://www.transfermarkt.com/eliteserien/startseite/wettbewerb/NO1)

So I think that in most cases this data is correct. If you compare the av. age with England it get's even more clear: https://www.transfermarkt.com/premier-league/startseite/wettbewerb/GB1

It's no surpize that the biggest league in the world usually have a older squad because this is where the best players are playing, no matter how old they are.
 

As far as I know, this has no influence in terms of development speed, it only defines how important it is for the club for developing their own players.

Yeah but if the players have more playing time at their club they end up like that Mourad guy i posted no?

[Zapoleon]

9 minutes ago, andu1 said:

If so then copy/paste Mexico data to other nations? If its just database related

I wish it was that simple, but it is a much more complex issue than that. Several different issues are probably factors that cause the problem. Different people have found different things that could all be different factors. 

[Daveincid]

Gerade eben schrieb andu1:

Yeah but if the players have more playing time at their club they end up like that Mourad guy i posted no?

Yes, but due to the reputation issue they won't get that playing time so it has a several knock-on effects: Their CA-development speed is slower (due to lack of games on a high level) + their reputation also increases slower (also due to the lack of games). 

But there is a very small gap in "overcorrecting" something and then you'll end having 20 Messi's /Mbappé's etc. So again, it is a very delicate balancing act.

[priority76]

2 hours ago, TheAwesomeGem said:

Improved AI Manager was a lie. There are no improvements. And improvement to CA  and Youth Reputation was also a lie. There are no difference there either. So I am not sure why we are being lied to. They can just admit that they want players to play short term saves rather than long term saves instead of breaking the game and making the game too easy long term.

🙄🤦‍♂️

[fc.cadoni]

Nation - Club factors, as well as team - league reputation; population - city attractive; all play their role together. Is not so simple task to tackle down such a complex Lernaean Hydra. This does not mean, to not be touched, right? Step by step, week by week things like Winner Home & World Reputation for nations like Italy can be solved in next build IMHO. Anyway, I can help as much I can from my side.

[albertocerdeira.4]

hace 2 horas, Daveincid dijo:

You didn't read or understand my answer right? The devs can't solve the issue because it's mainly not part of their responsibility.

When players in Mexico or Costa Rica developing way too fast but those in France too slow, how should a developer write the code which works the same for all Nations? I would say that in this case the HR's of those Nations should take a closer look at it. There is some serious lack of understanding how everything works. I won't blame anyone, it took me 2 years to understand maybe 80% of all the connections while I probably never understand it 100% without working for SI. 

If the problem it's almost impossible to solve according to you, HOW THE HELL they only have this problem in the last TWO YEARS AND NOT IN PREVIOUS YEARS?

[Daveincid]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb albertocerdeira.4:

If the problem it's almost impossible to solve according to you, HOW THE HELL they only have this problem in the last TWO YEARS AND NOT IN PREVIOUS YEARS?

Tbh I don't remember if there were issues in FM20. Every edition is still a new game, even some people always say it would be just a db update.

I didn't say it's almost impossible to solve but it's probably impossible to solve with adjustments for the general coding which determines player development

Edited December 3, 2022 by Daveincid

[enigmatic]

6 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

Tbh I don't remember if there were issues in FM20. Every edition is still a new game, even some people always say it would be just a db update.

I didn't say it's almost impossible to solve but it's probably impossible to solve with adjustments for the general coding which determines player development

Main thing is newgens particularly developed too quickly and too well in earlier versions. Pendulum has swung the other way now

[Daveincid]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb enigmatic:

Pendulum has swung the other way now

In some Nations yes, but not in general

[DarJ]

6 hours ago, jlboybeamer said:

Conspiracy theory ? I am on my 10th season without going on holiday in game.

You do realise that issues like this even if they are fixed, if you started a save before the patch it will take some time to adjust 

[zindrinho]

10 minutes ago, DarJ said:

You do realise that issues like this even if they are fixed, if you started a save before the patch it will take some time to adjust 

The conspiracy theory was that SI includes game breaking mechanisms into FM on purpose so you will buy the next edition as well. 

Think you need more than a patch to adjust that kinda thought..

[DarJ]

22 minutes ago, zindrinho said:

The conspiracy theory was that SI includes game breaking mechanisms into FM on purpose so you will buy the next edition as well. 

I think we all know that it's not true although I do believe that due to the fact that they have to release a game every year there are some issues they are aware of and maybe are already working on fixing but they don't fix until the next version which makes sense unless it something that makes the game completely unplayable like crashes etc. 

[Malarkey73]

Here is my current game.

The year is 2027. Moukoko is 22 and after having played a bit in Dortmund II but virtually never in Dortmund first team has moved to Nantes in Ligue2 for £3.6m and earns £16k per week. By January he is worth £32-38m.

This seems poor management by Dortmund. Maybe that's realistic for some clubs? .. but it seems general not particular?

My intuition is that the balance issues of development are not about small tweaks to variables in the in-game editor. They are more fundamentally about how the AI works. It is all optimising all the time. It cant do something suboptimal for a while for better performance later. 

Maybe.. its just my hunch...

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by Malarkey73

[DP]

13 hours ago, Malarkey73 said:

Here is my current game.

The year is 2027. Moukoko is 22 and after having played a bit in Dortmund II but virtually never in Dortmund first team has moved to Nantes in Ligue2 for £3.6m and earns £16k per week. By January he is worth £32-38m.

This seems poor management by Dortmund. Maybe that's realistic for some clubs? .. but it seems general not particular?

My intuition is that the balance issues of development are not about small tweaks to variables in the in-game editor. They are more fundamentally about how the AI works. It is all optimising all the time. It cant do something suboptimal for a while for better performance later. 

Maybe.. its just my hunch...

 

I think it’s probably quite straight forward; the AI will look predominately at CA, if there’s a great prospect with 120 and 200 PA, they possibly don’t see PA as something that’s worth developing by playing the player. They’ll also go out and buy a striker with 150 ca and 150 pa (finished article) and this player will block the young player. It’s the simplest explanation. 

A human will be more inclined to play Moukoko, knowing that there’s a chance he’ll be excellent, and happily suck up taking the CA hit in the short term. 

It’s no doubt a tricky fix but a player with a high PA should be played more, ignoring the low CA whilst they develop. 

Edited December 4, 2022 by DP

[ATV]

21 hours ago, jlboybeamer said:

 

 

Conspiracy theory ? I am on my 10th season without going on holiday in game. I have posted bugs in the forums and have provided constructive criticism, I am merely airing out my observation , feedback frustration and disbelief that SI can’t seem to fix this issue two Football Manager editions in.

It’s people like you that has the “ that’s alright and good enough “ mindset/attitude that has stagnated the game of any progress and improvement

this is what an internet forum is for. 

 

Post what you like within the rules  

[Malarkey73]

2 hours ago, DP said:

I think it’s probably quite straight forward; the AI will look predominately at CA, if there’s a great prospect with 120 and 200 PA, they possibly don’t see PA as something that’s worth developing by playing the player. They’ll also go out and buy a striker with 150 ca and 150 pa (finished article) and this player will block the young player. It’s the simplest explanation. 

Indeed I think thats exactly what is happening. I would also add as further evidence of poor logic/AI that stops development another detail from my current game.

Here is a newgen that in the games own words "needs further gametime to develop". His value is ~£6-9m and has roughly 4star potential for my team. He isn't quite good enough for first team and I don't have space right now. I initially offer out for a decent 50% wage - but have to reduce again and again till I finally get an offer at ~10-30% .... which the management rejects as not being enough! 

I'm guessing this is what the AI  in my game did to Moukoko? It won't play him and it won't loan him because ... reasons....I see this a lot in my own game this year and in previous versions.

It's fine that some players just don't make the step up. That's realistic. But the fact that a player shouldn't develop because the AI optimises a few hundred pounds a week instead of developing a supposed multi-million pound asset is ...frustrating. 

Anyway ... my point is rather than worry about tweaking a few variables like reputation to try and restore balance much of the underlying logic requires a bit more thought.

 

 

[abcdf]

I think this is a huge issue and in my opinion there are several reasons for this:

1) Not enough good prospects in the original database. 

There are really few "good" wonderkids with 160+ potential at the start of the game. Not enough to replace current star players. I always have to manually improve the PA of some to make it more realistic.

Of the three, this is by far the less concerning.

2) Loan market is broken.

Many AI teams do not loan their talents and let them rot in 2nd/B team forever. Even when they do offer them for loan, often nobody (other AI teams) makes a move for them. As a result, even wonderkids with good potential do not manage to reach it.

3) Player development is broken and too slow.

Since FM 2022, it became too slow and difficult to grow players CA. It simply grows too slowly even under ideal conditions. If the player has below perfect Ambition and Professionalism, the CA simply does not move at all. If it plays in a B team, it does not grow beyond like 120-130. This is completely unrealistic. Many big teams, especially in Spain and Germany, develop their players trough B teams and those players DO manage to become first team regulars. This does not happen in the game. If you combine this with point number 2), it becomes a mess and you end up with a database full of 30+ years old.

Let me know what you guys think about this.

Edited December 4, 2022 by abcdf

[Malarkey73]

8 minutes ago, Renyy said:

Because the game is legit hard coded to not recognize B teams as valid teams to develop in, even if they participate in senior league football. Even with better coaches, better game time and better training, players just do not develop in reserve teams. They develop in youth and first teams until 18, then need to be in the first.

Yeah my youth teams are going deep into the UEFA youth League competing against Real Madrid, Barcelona and Man City etc, plus most are youth internationals up to u21 but this gametime seems to do them little good. They all get to ~18-19 progress starts dipping and they cannot get loans or they themselves will reject a move to an affiliate.

Possibly this is specific to the Scottish league - but I have basically never in the past 4 FM versions managed to develop a newgen player from my youth team into my main team. And I have tried very very hard to do this.

Now maybe SI will say - "well that's life, that's realistic". But the current Celtic squad and all CL squads have to have 4 HG players + 4HN. And they do. So it should be possible achievable in the future too?  [without buying 18 year old Brazilian wonderkids already good enough for first team - which actually is highly highly unrealistic].

sigh...

[abcdf]

24 minuti fa, Renyy ha scritto:

Senior game time is just way too important for development. I agree that loan negotiations could use a lot of work, but an 18 year old shouldn't need to play 6 games a month to develop and only have 4 years to do so. 

Because the game is legit hard coded to not recognize B teams as valid teams to develop in, even if they participate in senior league football. Even with better coaches, better game time and better training, players just do not develop in reserve teams. They develop in youth and first teams until 18, then need to be in the first.

I agree, the third point of my post is probably the most important one. But I don't believe that it is because it's hard coded for B teams not to be considered legit. It just happens that the majority of B teams play in ****** leagues that do not allow players to grow beyond a certain treshold because they become too good for the league. At best B teams can play in Spanish 2nd league league, which ,because of the (wrong) way growth has been developed in game, does not allow players to develop past a certain treshold (around 130sh CA). All of this GIVEN that the player we are talking about has GODLY Ambition and Professionalism attributes. Otherwise it is simply not going to grow at all, no matter how much playing time he gets. 

In order to have the issue fixed, in short, player's growth should just be made quicker and simpler to achieve, without being tied so closely to how much "high level" playing time a player gets.

Edited December 4, 2022 by abcdf

[abcdf]

8 minuti fa, Renyy ha scritto:

That's just not the case though. A world class potential player will become a world class player even playing in San Marino if he plays 2 games a week and produces numbers (which ofc he will). I'm not saying playing at an appropriate level isn't important (I have no idea how important it is), but it's certainly not crucial. And the reason I'm confident there's an artificial barrier at play here is because I've tested it on my players. Put a guy in the first team with worse coaching and less practice, playing every res match and hardly any first team matches, and he'll develop more than if he was simply placed in the 2nd team with every other factor being better than in the first team.

I agree, the paradigm used in game for development is severely flawed. I was just telling you my understanding of how it works.

[albertocerdeira.4]

They touch something in the youth development in FM 2022 and they completely slow down the development of almost of the players. The only one that reaches his potential are the legit generational talents, but it's so painful to see the actual status.

 

I don't know if it's the code or whatsoever, but if the last update didn't solve the problem it's something to not stop complaining about because it kills not only the long term saves, because even actual wonderkids not are developing at all

[Malarkey73]

24 minutes ago, albertocerdeira.4 said:

I don't know if it's the code or whatsoever,

Method matters. There is obviously a problem in that they are trying achieve balance by tweaking certain variables - then simulating to see if that fixes it. But the ongoing problems suggest that they cannot achieve a longterm balance with the current model (possibly other features of the game become unrealistic). Its possible there isn't a solution possible just by tweaking variables. They have to put a bit of effort into changing the model.

 

[albertocerdeira.4]

I am holidaying a game until 2030 to see if the actual fix works. If it's not, I think it's better to post it in the bug tracker to see if they can solve this

[abcdf]

30 minuti fa, albertocerdeira.4 ha scritto:

I am holidaying a game until 2030 to see if the actual fix works. If it's not, I think it's better to post it in the bug tracker to see if they can solve this

There already is a post on the tracker if you guys want to add your findings to it:

 

[Platinum]

3 hours ago, abcdf said:

2) Loan market is broken.

Many AI teams do not loan their talents and let them rot in 2nd/B team forever. Even when they do offer them for loan, often nobody (other AI teams) makes a move for them. As a result, even wonderkids with good potential do not manage to reach it.

I definitely see this as a significant part of the problem

[albertocerdeira.4]

hace 24 minutos, abcdf dijo:

There already is a post on the tracker if you guys want to add your findings to it:

 

I was thinking to make a new topic to put a long data about the status of this issue after the update, to make it more noticeable, but if you think it's better to put it in the same topic, let me know

[XaW]

1 minute ago, albertocerdeira.4 said:

I was thinking to make a new topic to put a long data about the status of this issue after the update, to make it more noticeable, but if you think it's better to put it in the same topic, let me know

Feel free to do either, but it's already been noticed by SI staff. Creating a new thread will most likely only lead to it being added to the original issue and set as a known issue. So the most noticeable is to fill out the existing thread.

It's good that this is reported and given lots of feedback on though, since this is not a simple fix due to the various database setups, and a whole myriad of variants of how games evolve. I know people have said it worked better in earlier versions, but I disagree, up until FM22 it was way too easy to develop players, and the human managers could very easily outmaneuver the AI. It's much better now, but it's still not as good as I want it to be, so I hope people will continue to add their examples to the thread mentioned. 

[albertocerdeira.4]

hace 4 minutos, XaW dijo:

Feel free to do either, but it's already been noticed by SI staff. Creating a new thread will most likely only lead to it being added to the original issue and set as a known issue. So the most noticeable is to fill out the existing thread.

It's good that this is reported and given lots of feedback on though, since this is not a simple fix due to the various database setups, and a whole myriad of variants of how games evolve. I know people have said it worked better in earlier versions, but I disagree, up until FM22 it was way too easy to develop players, and the human managers could very easily outmaneuver the AI. It's much better now, but it's still not as good as I want it to be, so I hope people will continue to add their examples to the thread mentioned. 

I can agree with that, but I remember prior to FM22 there was at least a development, maybe so big, but there was a development. In my save in 2030 there isn't for example any new player capable of breaking into the senior team of Brazil or France, that is something that if you look into the last eight-seven years it's just unacceptable

[abcdf]

1 minuto fa, XaW ha scritto:

Feel free to do either, but it's already been noticed by SI staff. Creating a new thread will most likely only lead to it being added to the original issue and set as a known issue. So the most noticeable is to fill out the existing thread.

It's good that this is reported and given lots of feedback on though, since this is not a simple fix due to the various database setups, and a whole myriad of variants of how games evolve. I know people have said it worked better in earlier versions, but I disagree, up until FM22 it was way too easy to develop players, and the human managers could very easily outmaneuver the AI. It's much better now, but it's still not as good as I want it to be, so I hope people will continue to add their examples to the thread mentioned. 

Agreed, maybe it's better to fill out the old post.

That said, I do not understand your attempt to downplay a serious issue that is and will always be game breaking until solved

So you are saying since before the AI could be outmanuevered, it is better now that both the AI and human player have close to zero percent probability of developing players? Not to mention that AI teams with the current status of the game are just dying at a certain point in the future so there is no need to outmanuever anything. Instead of making the AI better, they made youth development worse.
Well, this certainly makes the game more balanced 

[XaW]

1 minute ago, albertocerdeira.4 said:

I can agree with that, but I remember prior to FM22 there was at least a development, maybe so big, but there was a development. In my save in 2030 there isn't for example any new player capable of breaking into the senior team of Brazil or France, that is something that if you look into the last eight-seven years it's just unacceptable

There still is development, I'm playing a youth-only challenge and I see quite a lot of development, but not enough yet. I'm also in 2030 in my save, and there are a few newgens playing for the biggest team already. Here are a few of them:

None of these players are on my team, as I'm still in the Championship with my own set of ONLY youth intake players with Marine.

1 minute ago, abcdf said:

Agreed, maybe it's better to fill out the old post.

That said, I do not understand your attempt to downplay a serious issue that is and will always be game breaking until solved

So you are saying since before the AI could be outmanuevered, it is better now that both the AI and human player have close to zero percent probability of developing players? Not to mention that AI teams with the current status of the game are just dying at a certain point in the future so there is no need to outmanuever anything. Instead of making the AI better, they made youth development worse.
Well, this certainly makes the game more balanced 

I'm not trying to downplay the issue. As I said above, I play youth-only challenges every version, and nothing else. Youth development are, for me, MORE important than the match engine itself. I'm saying this because I actually think it's better this version than before. So far this is my best player:

He is dominating the Championship for me, but I don't have the squad to match him yet to push for the Premier League. Believe me when I say I want the development in the game to work! I firmly think I can develop players well, but it's much harder than previously. But that is also something I wanted to happen. I wanted it to be harder for users and easier for the AI to make it comparable. This is also linked with my 2nd biggest issue with the game, squad management of the game where teams are unbalanced and that the AI managers don't buy the players they need to fit their tactic.

So feel free to disagree with me, but please don't try to add intentions to my posts in here. If you want to know how I think of things, feel free to ask me before jumping to assumptions.

[abcdf]

1 minuto fa, XaW ha scritto:

There still is development, I'm playing a youth-only challenge and I see quite a lot of development, but not enough yet. I'm also in 2030 in my save, and there are a few newgens playing for the biggest team already. Here are a few of them:

None of these players are on my team, as I'm still in the Championship with my own set of ONLY youth intake players with Marine.

I'm not trying to downplay the issue. As I said above, I play youth-only challenges every version, and nothing else. Youth development are, for me, MORE important than the match engine itself. I'm saying this because I actually think it's better this version than before. So far this is my best player:

He is dominating the Championship for me, but I don't have the squad to match him yet to push for the Premier League. Believe me when I say I want the development in the game to work! I firmly think I can develop players well, but it's much harder than previously. But that is also something I wanted to happen. I wanted it to be harder for users and easier for the AI to make it comparable. This is also linked with my 2nd biggest issue with the game, squad management of the game where teams are unbalanced and that the AI managers don't buy the players they need to fit their tactic.

So feel free to disagree with me, but please don't try to add intentions to my posts in here. If you want to know how I think of things, feel free to ask me before jumping to assumptions.

Dude, ok, you are experiencing some development in some AI teams. But there have been like 30 people complaining that by 2030 teams are just filled with 30 year old players. 

Something I experienced as well, just need to load a new save unemployed and holiday for something like 10 years. The situation is very very bad, I am not trying to exaggerate it for no reason. 

If you say you saw some improvement, tell me where exactly, please. Before FM22, the AI did not make sensible decisions (loan young players etc.)  but at least players grew anyway. Now, the AI still does not make sensible decisions and on top of that their players do not grow. Please, explain it to me, because I cannot understand where the improvement would be in this situation. For the human player it is even easier to outplay the AI now.

[fc.cadoni]

There two things need to be cleared.

1. Loaded Playable + Detail Level and Loaded View + Detail Level

2. If every club (or majority) have filled with players like XaW have posted, then there will be a problem (from the opposite direction).

[XaW]

9 minutes ago, abcdf said:

Dude, ok, you are experiencing some development in some AI teams. But there have been like 30 people complaining that by 2030 teams are just filled with 30 year old players. 

Something I experienced as well, just need to load a new save unemployed and holiday for something like 10 years. The situation is very very bad, I am not trying to exaggerate it for no reason. 

If you say you saw some improvement, tell me where exactly, please. Before FM22, the AI did not make sensible decisions (loan young players etc.)  but at least players grew anyway. Now, the AI still does not make sensible decisions and on top of that their players do not grow. Please, explain it to me, because I cannot understand where the improvement would be in this situation. For the human player it is even easier to outplay the AI now.

As I said, I think there are improvements and I showed you examples of it happening in my game. But I also underlined that I don't think it's good enough still. Don't know what more I can add here.

The improvement is that things are happening more equal now. Before FM22 you didn't have to do much to get any player to reach their potential. It was simply playing them and that was it. Now you have to be much more careful as to how develop your players. Too much gametime before they are ready can work against development for some players. Late bloomers happens more realistically. Many players will never reach their potential now. All these things are clear improvements that make the game more challenging and equal for AI and human managers. But it's still not good enough, I want more development in this area. I've suggested before that most players should have higher potential, but also make it much harder to reach it.

2 minutes ago, Renyy said:

Was players too easy to develop or was that a result of other issues? In other words, did the average age of world class players go down as saves went on and newgens filled up the world? 

I'm thinking maybe instead of waging this war on wonderkids farming they should consider the lack of incentive to play experience. Of in-game attributes only professionalism significantly increases with age and professionalism has almost no impact on match performance, but in a bit of irony has a huge impact on young players developing. Consistency, pressure, important matches, even determination, leadership... These attributes you associate with experienced players, they don't develop with age. And if a kid comes along that's worth buying, odds are they already have all of that anyway. 

Also doesn't help that the changes they have made to nerf wonderkids farming has either had the opposite effect, or made other aspects of the game less enjoyable. 

I can only speak for myself, but I think it was too easy for human managers to develop players pre-FM22 since it was just to play them to develop them. And no, I don't think the AI did the same.

Not sure what your next paragraphs relate to as you make some big claims there that I don't agree with.

[XaW]

Just now, Renyy said:

Need some evidence of game time having a negative effect on development. Players literally will not develop in FM22-23 without it. Even in the 16-18 year range where training is supposed to be more important seem to now be more influenced by game time. 

Well, I had this kid in my intake who looked amazing, so I threw him in, but he struggled and now he is, well, about the same as he was when he joined.

For reference, he was rated higher than this player by my staff:

5 minutes ago, Renyy said:

As opposed to now it being what? 

In previous games the top AI clubs would have 3-5 world class players. In FM23 they have 1. Sometimes 2. I've never done as well in FM with as weak of a team as I have in FM22 and FM23. If "easy" is the issue then what attributes everyone has just seems like a weird position to take when relative to the AI the game has become a lot easier. Does it matter whether everyone has players 150 CA or 190 CA? 

Now you have to be much more careful with training and game times, as well as when to loan out or not. If you don't, well, I don't struggle as much as you with development, I'll leave it at that.

I don't know why you say this like I've said there it not an issue? I've clearly said I think it is, but it's my OPINION that it's much better now. You are free to think otherwise, but don't present it a universal truth. I don't look at PA or CA, since those number don't matter in the end. Attribute distribution (something that comes with actual development) matter so much more. I'd rather have a well developed player with CA 150 over a poorly developed CA 190 any day. A PA of 120 is enough to be a decent Premier League level player with a great attribute distribution.

10 minutes ago, Renyy said:

This thread

No it doesn't, you make claims like "war on wonderkids farming"  and "professionalism has almost no impact on match performance" with zero evidence or reasoning as to why you believe so. I don't think SI has an issue with people trying to farm wonderkids, what they are doing is trying to make the game play out as it does in real life. Also, as someone who rates professionalism higher than any other aspect of a player, I believe professionalism have a big effect on how players react to situations in matches. As do Determination for example. Why do you think some players play better in adversity and other falter, pure chance?

[fc.cadoni]

36 minutes ago, Renyy said:

Of in-game attributes only professionalism significantly increases with age and professionalism has almost no impact on match performance, but in a bit of irony has a huge impact on young players developing. Consistency, pressure, important matches, even determination, leadership...

Wrong. Hidden attributes have an impact on match performance.

[abcdf]

14 minuti fa, XaW ha scritto:

Well, I had this kid in my intake who looked amazing, so I threw him in, but he struggled and now he is, well, about the same as he was when he joined.

For reference, he was rated higher than this player by my staff:

Now you have to be much more careful with training and game times, as well as when to loan out or not. If you don't, well, I don't struggle as much as you with development, I'll leave it at that.

I don't know why you say this like I've said there it not an issue? I've clearly said I think it is, but it's my OPINION that it's much better now. You are free to think otherwise, but don't present it a universal truth. I don't look at PA or CA, since those number don't matter in the end. Attribute distribution (something that comes with actual development) matter so much more. I'd rather have a well developed player with CA 150 over a poorly developed CA 190 any day. A PA of 120 is enough to be a decent Premier League level player with a great attribute distribution.

No it doesn't, you make claims like "war on wonderkids farming"  and "professionalism has almost no impact on match performance" with zero evidence or reasoning as to why you believe so. I don't think SI has an issue with people trying to farm wonderkids, what they are doing is trying to make the game play out as it does in real life. Also, as someone who rates professionalism higher than any other aspect of a player, I believe professionalism have a big effect on how players react to situations in matches. As do Determination for example. Why do you think some players play better in adversity and other falter, pure chance?

Dude, with all the due respect, I cannot relate to any of your claims. Seems like me and you have been playing two completely different games. You are trying to convince us that something that to everybody looks buggy and pretty much broken is somehow more complex or refined than in previous games. Honestly, it just looks broken.

Edited December 4, 2022 by abcdf

[XaW]

1 minute ago, abcdf said:

Dude, with all the due respect, I cannot relate to any of your claims. Seems like me and you have been playing two completely different games

Sure, our opinions can disagree, but I have tried to back up my claims when asked. If you can back up yours, then please do so in the bug report above.

[albertocerdeira.4]

For me the biggest problem in long-term is that while you are able to develop new players, loaning them out and waiting for them to improve, as they don't do it, when the big real players retires you have the best team without doing nothing special because others teams don't do it

[fc.cadoni]

1 minute ago, Renyy said:

Get your strawmen outta here. 

You said something which is not true about hidden attributes (you have provided no evidenced). A member from community here have tested hidden attributes and it's pretty clear that hidden attributes have an impact on match performance.

Start to learn how things works in the game. If you don't know something, test by yourself - search - ask. Otherwise don't post fake news. Ok?

Let's move and leave personal attacks.

[abcdf]

7 minuti fa, albertocerdeira.4 ha scritto:

For me the biggest problem in long-term is that while you are able to develop new players, loaning them out and waiting for them to improve, as they don't do it, when the big real players retires you have the best team without doing nothing special because others teams don't do it

Exactly, but somehow I see claims that it made the game more challenging for the real player vs the AI

Edited December 4, 2022 by abcdf

[fc.cadoni]

2 minutes ago, Renyy said:

If you got your head out of your ass you'd see that I very explicitly wrote that hidden attributes do have an impact on match performance. Get your strawman outta here.

Now, none of what I've written to you have been a personal attack. If you need a lesson in what that is feel free to DM me, cause I'm finished with you in here. 

If this not an attack, what it is?

Anyway

[Platinum]

2 hours ago, XaW said:

There still is development, I'm playing a youth-only challenge and I see quite a lot of development, but not enough yet. I'm also in 2030 in my save, and there are a few newgens playing for the biggest team already. Here are a few of them:

None of these players are on my team, as I'm still in the Championship with my own set of ONLY youth intake players with Marine.

I'm not trying to downplay the issue. As I said above, I play youth-only challenges every version, and nothing else. Youth development are, for me, MORE important than the match engine itself. I'm saying this because I actually think it's better this version than before. So far this is my best player:

He is dominating the Championship for me, but I don't have the squad to match him yet to push for the Premier League. Believe me when I say I want the development in the game to work! I firmly think I can develop players well, but it's much harder than previously. But that is also something I wanted to happen. I wanted it to be harder for users and easier for the AI to make it comparable. This is also linked with my 2nd biggest issue with the game, squad management of the game where teams are unbalanced and that the AI managers don't buy the players they need to fit their tactic.

So feel free to disagree with me, but please don't try to add intentions to my posts in here. If you want to know how I think of things, feel free to ask me before jumping to assumptions.

I would guess that you have under 5 newgens in total across the Italian, English, Spanish and French national teams - assuming you made those leagues playable? Unfortunately that seems to be the case almost every time now - I've done quite a few long term holidays since the update. 

I agree that developing players is harder which is great and I am really happy about that! Unfortunately AI squad management means there arent enough top quality players being developed for the big nations in particular and most nations have old teams. 

Great to get your views as a youth only player

Edited December 4, 2022 by Platinum

[albertocerdeira.4]

I can confirm that with eight leagues loaded there is no improvement at all. There is full backs with good crossing to tell something good about SI. My results are similar to the others, so there's no point in adding nothing

[FrazT]

Just a general word here- by all means disagree with other users, but please do not let the thread descend into personal abuse to other users.  If you don't want to discuss with others, put them on your ignore list.

[abcdf]

31 minuti fa, albertocerdeira.4 ha scritto:

I can confirm that with eight leagues loaded there is no improvement at all. There is full backs with good crossing to tell something good about SI. My results are similar to the others, so there's no point in adding nothing

Please if you want post you feedback on the bug tracker thread so it is easier to have a comprehensive discussion about the problem there

[Zapoleon]

59 minutes ago, albertocerdeira.4 said:

I can confirm that with eight leagues loaded there is no improvement at all. There is full backs with good crossing to tell something good about SI. My results are similar to the others, so there's no point in adding nothing

As others have asked please post any results in the bug tracker, so they know, and can make future attempts to improve the issue. 

[Deego619]

My two cents:

• CA now declines slower than older FMs, world class players maintain their ability into their mid 30s.
• PA is now more difficult to develop than older FMs, both for the player and for the AI.

Whilst I think these two changes were made with the best intentions for realism, players did fall off a cliff attribute wise once they hit 30, and it was far too easy to develop any youngster you wanted through tutoring/playtime, were they the right changes for game balance?

As long as the AI manager still works with the intelligence of "Oooo reputation good, me like, you play", then the previous status quo was probably for the best. 

[Dotsworthy]

On 03/12/2022 at 17:58, albertocerdeira.4 said:

If the problem it's almost impossible to solve according to you, HOW THE HELL they only have this problem in the last TWO YEARS AND NOT IN PREVIOUS YEARS?

Because CA growth and decay was adjusted to more accurately reflect player progression in real life.

It used to be that players would skyrocket in CA until they hit 22-23 and stop completely, and fall off a cliff when they were 30. The growth is more natural and outfield players can grow all the way to 27 but exposed the issues with AI squad selection regarding youth.

From my own experience I've had no real problem developing youngsters in FM22 or FM23, where players have good personalities. My issues are with problem children, who have poor ambition, determination or professionalism. The original solution was mentoring which was nerfed in FM22 and has an effect in severely limiting the ability to fix players who have bad personalities. The system was too easy to get an army of 21 year old modal citizens beforehand and ultimately the real world has plenty of Ravel Morrisons but mentoring feels a bit useless right now.

9 hours ago, Malarkey73 said:

Indeed I think thats exactly what is happening. I would also add as further evidence of poor logic/AI that stops development another detail from my current game.

Here is a newgen that in the games own words "needs further gametime to develop". His value is ~£6-9m and has roughly 4star potential for my team. He isn't quite good enough for first team and I don't have space right now. I initially offer out for a decent 50% wage - but have to reduce again and again till I finally get an offer at ~10-30% .... which the management rejects as not being enough! 

The loan system is one of the most maddening parts of the game for sure. It's also really strange how these offers often only appear when the loan manager has the player in the development who then auto rejects based on valuation. I do wonder if this is also part of the AI's issues with younger players.

I think the AI often gets stuck in a feedback loop. It knows this player is 190pa, but the weighting of reputation ensures they don't play them, so they put them on the loan list, but get these bad offers, and because they have high PA they want more money?

[XaW]

9 hours ago, Platinum said:

I would guess that you have under 5 newgens in total across the Italian, English, Spanish and French national teams - assuming you made those leagues playable? Unfortunately that seems to be the case almost every time now - I've done quite a few long term holidays since the update. 

I agree that developing players is harder which is great and I am really happy about that! Unfortunately AI squad management means there arent enough top quality players being developed for the big nations in particular and most nations have old teams. 

Great to get your views as a youth only player

Just had a look. Here is the breakdown:

*Italy: 2
*England: 2
*Spain: 2
*France: 3

Also a few more:

*Germany: 5
Brazil: 2
Argentina: 5
Turkey: 3
*Scotland: 4
Japan: 3
Morocco: 2
*Netherlands: 3

From these I have the leagues marked with a * as playable.

So there are players up-and-coming in various places around the world, but there is still an issue, but I think, as has been noted by several, including @Daveincid, that the issue is more related to player reputation, rather than actual development. Which in turn impacts development later on, of course. So the development until somewhere from 18 to 24 is fine, the various age is player dependent, but from then on the players are lacking match practice at a high enough level since the AI managers are picking higher reputation (read :real life players with a set reputation) rather than a similar newgen who is lacking the same reputation. Also, the AI targeting in regards to transfers is also not good enough, in my opinion, and I hope it will be improved more in the future.

TL:DR: There is an issue, but it relates to reputation rather than development in isolation. Then cascades from there.

If there where no development, how would this happen in my game: