FM23 Headline Features Revealed

[Double0Seven]

I dont even blame them. They dominate this market. Why invest heavily when you dont need to? I certainly wouldnt if I was the single dominating player. My grip with FM is not that its bad, its an excellent game. But it can be so much more. 

[grade]

11 minutes ago, saiyaman said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't the console versions have FM Touch and not the full fat version?

If so, then SI doesn't even trust modern cut down PCs to run the full fat version. This should be the solution to those "What about my old PC I got last decade".

FM Touch should be the way forward for ancient configurations.

FM Full should continue to pave forward for innovations.

I see this as the only solution to the forum fighting with FM being designed for old machines vs FM being designed for new machines.

Touch has been demoted to an Apple Arcade game. I say demoted, because it used to be available to many other platforms, from PC/mac to ipad/tabelts.

PS5 and Xbox, will have the console edition.

Difference between the two? Don't know, no one does.

[BuzzR]

25 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

SI have actively been recruiting more artists designers and animators (among other staff) over the last few years so to say they don't want to is simply wrong. 

Please explain this : 

Spoiler

On 02/10/2022 at 11:51, Druid DR said:

There's no denying the animation system in 3D has improved a lot since the FM17 days, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the actual downgraded look that the rest of the 3D match day experience underwent after 17.  For example, there's no logical reason why the varied and great looking pitches, the stadiums, and the stadium variety, along with the numerous match camera angles we had and the overall lighting that FM17 excelled at should be stripped out for improved player animations that came in later versions.  I'd love SI to explain what happened between FM17 and 18, and the 5 versions that followed (but I won't hold my breath as they rarely comment on anything 3D matchday experience related in anycase).

Someone on this thread mentioned that it was probably a case of SI getting rid of their art department after FM17 and outsourcing the graphics.  That sounds more plausible, as FM17 was clearly done by artists who took pride in their work. Its hard to say the same about every version that came after.

We went from this in FM17...

 

 

 

 

On 02/10/2022 at 11:52, Druid DR said:

To this in FM18 and the versions that followed...

 

 

 

 

 

One of the things that is also overlooked is how the aesthetics and environments in FM17 made you feel like you were managing a club in different places around the world.  The stadium variety we had allowed this, as well as the lighting, which changed depending on what time of the day the game kicked off.  If you look at the stadium variety in 18 - 22, it's not the same.  The screenshots above show this, i.e. a match played in Stoke's stadium looks identical to a match played in the Argentinian lower leagues.  Whereas the screenshots from my FM17 save show the distinct variety in stadiums from around the world, with the lighting and pitches adding to it too.  It gave off a whole other vibe to the matchday experiences compared to the blandness of FM18 and onwards.

 

 

You have to understand that this product is the sum of all parts. It's ok to say one year.. "Yeah, you see we've changed engines to Unity and you know .. we kind of figuring stuff out, sorry! Next time will be better ". It's ok to say another " Look - we have major improvements to AI". Great. nice. Should be like that.

But man, we cannot ignore things forever. Every year we pay a full price. We can't say.. " you know , another year without set pieces revamp, I'm paying 10euros less".

But this is the 6 release from FM17 and there is nothing and we start to get used to it!  And this is really bad! - here have this dynamic manager timeline, instead - please enjoy it. We've hired artists. Please stop.

That damn goal net is acting like the poltergeist. The trees are from popup books made by children with one green pencil and a colored paper.

The stadiums are the same everywhere around the world. Everywhere.

I'm not mad about the reality of graphics because I understand it's money and they are a business. I'm sad because we could have a better game, but money talks.

I'm just sad that some people including yourself are still pushing this idea of consumer protection, lower end PCs drag us down and all this jazz every year; and you keep defending SI in an issue where they cannot be defended. That's it.

 

 

 

 

 

[themadsheep2001]

2 minutes ago, BuzzR said:

Please explain this : 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

You have to understand that this product is the sum of all parts. It's ok to say one year.. "Yeah, you see we've changed engines to Unity and you know .. we kind of figuring stuff out, sorry! Next time will be better ". It's ok to say another " Look - we have major improvements to AI". Great. nice. Should be like that.

But man, we cannot ignore things forever. Every year we pay a full price. We can't say.. " you know , another year without set pieces revamp, I'm paying 10euros less".

But this is the 6 release from FM17 and there is nothing and we start to get used to it!  And this is really bad! - here have this dynamic manager timeline, instead - please enjoy it. We've hired artists. Please stop.

That damn goal net is acting like the poltergeist. The trees are from popup books made by children with one green pencil and a colored paper.

The stadiums are the same everywhere around the world. Everywhere.

I'm not mad about the reality of graphics because I understand it's money and they are a business. I'm sad because we could have a better game, but money talks.

I'm just sad that some people including yourself are still pushing this idea of consumer protection, lower end PCs drag us down and all this jazz every year; and you keep defending SI in an issue where they cannot be defended. That's it.

 

 

 

 

 

If you're simply going to take my views as defending SI, we're done here because you're doing my opinions a disservice and I have zero time or patience for that. 

[themadsheep2001]

36 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

Only SI got the data, so if they come to the conclusion that it will be worth the financial investments I'm pretty sure they will do it. Anyways, I've put my 2 cents about this topic here.

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see major animations changes coincide with the release of women's football personally. They are remodelling player models, the ME is going to have to accommodate another different set of variations. Lots of elements you'd be able to draft into the men's football. Good time to kill multiple birds with one stone when it comes to improvements and variations 

[BuzzR]

36 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

Only SI got the data, so if they come to the conclusion that it will be worth the financial investments I'm pretty sure they will do it. Anyways, I've put my 2 cents about this topic here.

 

I know man, I'm not trying to start an quarrel or something.. I'm just sad we keep hearing this thing on and on "we cannot improve graphics because of lower end PCs" when it's not fair. It feels like we're been taking for fools.

[Daveincid]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb themadsheep2001:

I wouldn't be surprised to see major animations changes coincide with the release of women's football personally. They are remodelling player models, the ME is going to have to accommodate another different set of variations. Lots of elements you'd be able to draft into the men's football. Good time to kill multiple birds with one stone when it comes to improvements and variations 

I would be massively suprised if this won't be the case   I really think that everyone will benefit from this step, no matter if you play the womens league or not.

[Daveincid]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb BuzzR:

I know man, I'm not trying to start an quarrel or something.. I'm just sad we keep hearing this thing on and on "we cannot improve graphics because of lower end PCs" when it's not fair. It feels like we're been taking for fools.

And I'm not trying to fool you or anyone else. I just have a lot of trust in SI about this game we (hopefully) all love. SI is the company but behind the company there are incredible passionate human beings improving this game every year. I never saw a gaming company where devs speaking so passionate about the game like Nic Madden or Miles. 

I also understand that if your main focus are graphics, you are maybe not that impressed.

I'm spending like 90% in the editor every year and believe me, the amount of improvements which you can't directly "see" but they are there is insane

Just have some faith   I really have a good feeling for FM23

 

[BuzzR]

13 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

And I'm not trying to fool you or anyone else. I just have a lot of trust in SI about this game we (hopefully) all love. SI is the company but behind the company there are incredible passionate human beings improving this game every year. I never saw a gaming company where devs speaking so passionate about the game like Nic Madden or Miles. 

I also understand that if your main focus are graphics, you are maybe not that impressed.

I'm spending like 90% in the editor every year and believe me, the amount of improvements which you can't directly "see" but they are there is insane

Just have some faith   I really have a good feeling for FM23

 

Actually my biggest pet peeve are set pieces .

I'm just annoyed a little about the graphics discussion .. I can ignore the graphics usually. 

[Daveincid]

vor 1 Minute schrieb BuzzR:

Actually my biggest pet peeve are set pieces .

As long as it's not about getting a stadium editor, privat life of a manager or setting prices for hot-dog-stands I'm fine

[Dagenham_Dave]

23 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

As long as it's not about getting a stadium editor, privat life of a manager or setting prices for hot-dog-stands I'm fine

A timely reminder that a stadium editor and a stadium builder are two completely different things. Game desperately needs the former, can forever do without the latter. 

[KillYourIdols]

28 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

As long as it's not about getting a stadium editor, privat life of a manager or setting prices for hot-dog-stands I'm fine

Where's my "Premier Manager" fans at??! 

[Erimus1876]

Just now, Dagenham_Dave said:

A timely reminder that a stadium editor and a stadium builder are two completely different things. Game desperately needs the former, can forever do without the latter. 

A stadium editor would be a very useful 'headline' feature imo.  It may also save SI a lot of time resolving the legitimate complaints about how the stadiums in FM have lacked variety and character since the FM-17 days.  I could imagine a community with access to a stadium editor would pretty much build every conceivable stadium in the world and have it downloadable for everyone else to use in no time.    One problem solved, thus leaving SI to get on with updating the rest of the 3d matchday experience!

[Daveincid]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Dagenham_Dave:

A timely reminder that a stadium editor and a stadium builder are two completely different things. Game desperately needs the former, can forever do without the latter. 

agreed!

[Mars_Blackmon]

29 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

A timely reminder that a stadium editor and a stadium builder are two completely different things. Game desperately needs the former, can forever do without the latter. 

Exactly, people want a stadium editor because stadiums haven’t been touched and they all look the same. There isn’t even any lower league stadiums who only have standing sections.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Mars_Blackmon

[Ferocious289]

I can't believe the company line is that graphics can't be improved due to people playing on 10 year old laptops. Unbelievable. If cheap skats don't want to invest in 21st century gaming laptops that's their problems. I ain't heard other gaming  sports companies say we are not investing in graphical upgrades because people are still using PS2.

Absolute madness, and then you have consumers validating it. Newsflash, If you got a laptop from 2010 that can't hack 2022 games, that's your problem, don't see why everyone else has to suffer because you won't invest.

[grade]

Despite wanting FM to have FIFA graphics, that ship has sailed. Don't really believe that SI can deliver FIFA graphics in the next 20 years or in our live times. If the last 14 years they didn't push the envelop, at least to provide better experience for us users, they won't now. Like Miles statement 14 years ago, FIFA graphics ain't their goal, they want realistic football...

Let me tell you something, that is also EA's and Konami's dream. And their graphics are far superior to FMs. But they ain't there yet, and they never will be. Because Real Life, can't be mimic. you know why? You may call it luck, you may call it, providence or God's will. That can't be programed.

[dino88]

I find it particularly funny/interesting how every year the SI developers get so excited about the work they've put into the game thinking we'll all be jumping out of our seats with joy... and the year after on their next feature video they're like "last year wasn't realllyyyy great so this year we made it amazing" lol

I am completely disappointed/underwhelmed by the features this year (not really features other than the squad builder and recruitment). 

 

[dino88]

Maybe it's time? 

[Ferocious289]

13 minutes ago, grade said:

Despite wanting FM to have FIFA graphics, that ship has sailed. Don't really believe that SI can deliver FIFA graphics in the next 20 years or in our live times. If the last 14 years they didn't push the envelop, at least to provide better experience for us users, they won't now. Like Miles statement 14 years ago, FIFA graphics ain't their goal, they want realistic football...

Let me tell you something, that is also EA's and Konami's dream. And their graphics are far superior to FMs. But they ain't there yet, and they never will be. Because Real Life, can't be mimic. you know why? You may call it luck, you may call it, providence or God's will. That can't be programed.

The thing is it doesn't have to be fifa level graphics, but another poster showed from fm2017 the graphics and attention to detail are actually getting worse. The crowds, stadium design and pitch texturess are at a basic level that rival sensible soccer on amiga.

If there was some finer artwork to the graphics and player models, floodlights and weather where you would feel like you're watching there was a real sense of atmopshere and variation to playing in different environments and countries, even if cartoonish I think many would feel overjoyed. At the moment you can't even tell if you're playing at night or day as it all looks the same.

[dino88]

3 minutes ago, Ferocious289 said:

The thing is it doesn't have to be fifa level graphics, but another poster showed from fm2017 the graphics and attention to detail are actually getting worse. The crowds, stadium design and pitch texturess are at a basic level that rival sensible soccer on amiga.

If there was some finer artwork to the graphics and player models, floodlights and weather where you would feel like you're watching there was a real sense of atmopshere and variation to playing in different environments and countries, even if cartoonish I think many would feel overjoyed. At the moment you can't even tell if you're playing at night or day as it all looks the same.

Playing a game in Greece in a stadium that looks like something out of Vanarama league... that does it for me. 

[Erimus1876]

34 minutes ago, grade said:

Despite wanting FM to have FIFA graphics, that ship has sailed. Don't really believe that SI can deliver FIFA graphics in the next 20 years or in our live times. If the last 14 years they didn't push the envelop, at least to provide better experience for us users, they won't now. Like Miles statement 14 years ago, FIFA graphics ain't their goal, they want realistic football...

Let me tell you something, that is also EA's and Konami's dream. And their graphics are far superior to FMs. But they ain't there yet, and they never will be. Because Real Life, can't be mimic. you know why? You may call it luck, you may call it, providence or God's will. That can't be programed.

I don't think many people expect Fifa type graphics for FM.  That's a fallacy.  I think people would be happy to see the graphical progress that was made between Fm10 / Fm-11 (when 3D was introduced), to Fm-17, return to the series.  During that period the 3D graphics were steadily improved year after year, and by the time Fm-17 came along the 3D match experience was beginning to look really nice, with beautiful lighting, lots of stadium variety, and has been mentioned, a dozen or so camera angles for us to choose from. .  Then something happened with the development of Fm-18 and a decision was made to downgrade the graphics dramatically as well as remove the variety of beautiful stadiums we once had, and replace them with the generic and dull ones we've had for the past 5 years. 

After 5 years of little graphical progress, I think plenty of people would settle just to be having Fm-17's visuals back, with Fm-23's ME.  Not going to happen though as I think the answer as to why the 3d gets little attention these days lays in the "Will you be buying Fm-23" thread.  As its there you'll see the majority of players pre-order this game no matter what.  That means there's little incentive for a studio to invest in major improvements when they're guaranteed to be banking people's cash in advance without having to be held accountable for whatever it is they decide to release.  It happens every year with lots of games so its not just a FM / SI thing.  But pre-ordering is the root cause of why games studios get away with releasing sub-par products year in year out (but I guess that's for another argument).

Edited October 7, 2022 by Erimus1876

[themadsheep2001]

3 hours ago, Daveincid said:

And I'm not trying to fool you or anyone else. I just have a lot of trust in SI about this game we (hopefully) all love. SI is the company but behind the company there are incredible passionate human beings improving this game every year. I never saw a gaming company where devs speaking so passionate about the game like Nic Madden or Miles. 

I also understand that if your main focus are graphics, you are maybe not that impressed.

I'm spending like 90% in the editor every year and believe me, the amount of improvements which you can't directly "see" but they are there is insane

Just have some faith   I really have a good feeling for FM23

 

I think FM23 will be stronger but more iterative, most changes under the hood. I think the next leaps are likely with women's football. For me I'm most interested in the AI match engine changes, and match engine changes overall. 

[Tyler42]

It's getting so obvious that FM has no other competitor in this genre, $60 for cosmetic features just goes to show for it.
Does SI allow its developers to be innovative? Try something new? Look at the feature request section? It doesn't seem like it.

- This in-house ME is bad, always had been and it seems like it always will be. But my guess is that it's so integrated into other parts of the game, that replacing it with a proper game engine is simply not possible at this point without major changes in many places (and let's not kid ourselves, the features in the past years have had no indications of major reworks or new innovation).

- I was stoked about the dynamic Avg. Youth Rating by Country feature when it came out, turns out it wasn't very dynamic and didn't get fixed in patches. I'm not sitting through ~42mins of that vid, but I'm under the impression that they didn't touch on this issue for FM23. (please correct me if I'm wrong, if they did fix it, I might end up buying this year's release)

Major features/overhauls cost time and money; SI doesn't need to spend this kind of money since there is no motivation to go the extra mile.

I am a developer myself and I've sat down and wondered what it would take to make a football simulator similar to the FM series. When you break the parts down, you do start to realize what an extremely large task and difficult and start to appreciate the FM series; but that doesn't mean that the SI team shouldn't be challenging itself, going the extra mile and being innovative, sadly I'm simply not seeing it here.

TLDR: Pass for me this year

Edited October 7, 2022 by Tyler42
Spelling

[Mars_Blackmon]

15 minutes ago, Tyler42 said:

It's getting so obvious that FM has no other competitor in this genre, $60 for cosmetic features just goes to show for it.
Does SI allow its developers to be innovative? Try something new? Look at the feature request section? It doesn't seem like it.

- This in-house ME is bad, always had been and it seems like it always will be. But my guess is that it's so integrated into other parts of the game, that replacing it with a proper game engine is simply not possible at this point without major changes in many places (and let's not kid ourselves, the features in the past years have had no indications of major reworks or new innovation).

- I was stoked about the dynamic Avg. Youth Rating by Country feature when it came out, turns out it wasn't very dynamic and didn't get fixed in patches. I'm not sitting through ~42mins of that vid, but I'm under the impression that they didn't touch on this issue for FM23. (please correct me if I'm wrong, if they did fix it, I might end up buying this year's release)

Major features/overhauls cost time and money; SI doesn't need to spend this kind of money since there is no motivation to go the extra mile.

I am a developer myself and I've sat down and wondered what it would take to make a football simulator similar to the FM series. When you break the parts down, you do start to realize what an extremely large task and difficult and start to appreciate the FM series; but that doesn't mean that the SI team shouldn't be challenging itself, going the extra mile and being innovative, sadly I'm simply not seeing it here.

TLDR: Pass for me this year

 

55 minutes ago, Erimus1876 said:

I don't think many people expect Fifa type graphics for FM.  That's a fallacy.  I think people would be happy to see the graphical progress that was made between Fm10 / Fm-11 (when 3D was introduced), to Fm-17, return to the series.  During that period the 3D graphics were steadily improved year after year, and by the time Fm-17 came along the 3D match experience was beginning to look really nice, with beautiful lighting, lots of stadium variety, and has been mentioned, a dozen or so camera angles for us to choose from. .  Then something happened with the development of Fm-18 and a decision was made to downgrade the graphics dramatically as well as remove the variety of beautiful stadiums we once had, and replace them with the generic and dull ones we've had for the past 5 years. 

After 5 years of little graphical progress, I think plenty of people would settle just to be having Fm-17's visuals back, with Fm-23's ME.  Not going to happen though as I think the answer as to why the 3d gets little attention these days lays in the "Will you be buying Fm-23" thread.  As it’s there you'll see the majority of players pre-order this game no matter what.  That means there's little incentive for a studio to invest in major improvements when they're guaranteed to be banking people's cash in advance without having to be held accountable for whatever it is they decide to release.  It happens every year with lots of games so it’s not just a FM / SI thing.  But pre-ordering is the root cause of why games studios get away with releasing sub-par products year in year out (but I guess that's for another argument).

People would be fine with Soccer Manager 2022 graphics which is a free game on steam.

[Piperita]

The way some people are talking, it feels like the "glorified database update" should become a "glorified graphics pack". While those are nice, I tend to favor actual gameplay. Sure, things could be better but is that all some people care about?

--------------------

My theory for the perceived downgrade between 17 and further versions (can't say much myself as I played 17 mostly in 2D) lies in the changes in tactics creation and the plethora of new roles. We got the PFa, MEZ, VOL, CAR, WCB as new roles (I think non-support IWB as well but I am not sure). We got underlaps/overlaps for individual sides and an overhaul of fluidity. Like someone said before, the game does a lot of calculations between scenes and I guess all these additions and changes only added to that. We are six years from the release of 17 and we apparently still have a sizable amount of potato-players. How must it have looked half a dozen years ago? So they prioritised gameplay over graphics (which I whole-heartedly approve of!). We got a better game for it and that I can respect. One day the specs will rise and with it some a lot can come back at once. The code for stadium and pitch generation should still lie around and should not affect too much else. Player modelling probably already has their own team. A lot of stats are already calculated but not really used, like half chances, kinds of CCC, or crosses from open play. There could be a new focus on simultaneous calculations or on events getting more outcomes, be it visual (e.g. dribblings get more "styles" as returned result) or as input (e.g. those "styles" come with their own risk/reward and that affects the result) .

I could imagine that these massive changes to game calculation took a lot of resources and that there were a few hardships along the way. I remember quite a few early hickups with the additions! What I have to give to the devs, they did some marvels under the hood after FM20. 21 dramatically increased speeds and 22 gave it another boost. The game really is running well right now and I know from experience that optimising code and creating a usable base for big updates requiring new systems can be messy and bigger than most visible features. With that we can get more from any "upgrade" and maybe not suffer any of the usual side-effects of creating a boatload more calculations.

[2feet]

11 minutes ago, Piperita said:

The way some people are talking, it feels like the "glorified database update" should become a "glorified graphics pack". While those are nice, I tend to favor actual gameplay. Sure, things could be better but is that all some people care about?

--------------------

My theory for the perceived downgrade between 17 and further versions (can't say much myself as I played 17 mostly in 2D) lies in the changes in tactics creation and the plethora of new roles. We got the PFa, MEZ, VOL, CAR, WCB as new roles (I think non-support IWB as well but I am not sure). We got underlaps/overlaps for individual sides and an overhaul of fluidity. Like someone said before, the game does a lot of calculations between scenes and I guess all these additions and changes only added to that. We are six years from the release of 17 and we apparently still have a sizable amount of potato-players. How must it have looked half a dozen years ago? So they prioritised gameplay over graphics (which I whole-heartedly approve of!). We got a better game for it and that I can respect. One day the specs will rise and with it some a lot can come back at once. The code for stadium and pitch generation should still lie around and should not affect too much else. Player modelling probably already has their own team. A lot of stats are already calculated but not really used, like half chances, kinds of CCC, or crosses from open play. There could be a new focus on simultaneous calculations or on events getting more outcomes, be it visual (e.g. dribblings get more "styles" as returned result) or as input (e.g. those "styles" come with their own risk/reward and that affects the result) .

I could imagine that these massive changes to game calculation took a lot of resources and that there were a few hardships along the way. I remember quite a few early hickups with the additions! What I have to give to the devs, they did some marvels under the hood after FM20. 21 dramatically increased speeds and 22 gave it another boost. The game really is running well right now and I know from experience that optimising code and creating a usable base for big updates requiring new systems can be messy and bigger than most visible features. With that we can get more from any "upgrade" and maybe not suffer any of the usual side-effects of creating a boatload more calculations.

Agree

It's very easy to take the ME for granted, personally I think it's an incredible achievement.

[gunner86]

6 hours ago, rp1966 said:

The only one I can think of is Sim City, which went from isometric 3D in SC4 to full 3D in SC5* and took a big hit in graphical detail due to the fact that models and textures couldn't be as detailed when they needed to be rendered in a 3D engine compared to being pre-rendered in SC4 (they also screwed up gameplay, but that's a different issue) - it cost them dearly with the result that Sim City is no more and Cities: Skylines, who got 3D and gameplay right, now rules the city builder roost.

* not quite the same as FM due to the technology change. I really can't fathom the FM17 to FM18 change or how anyone signed it off.

So something about what you said here struck a chord.

I’ve been trying to find the features for FM18 but other than some summaries on fan sites I’m not coming up with a fully detailed list. But on a couple of places it does mention new graphics engine. Just spitballing here but it could be that something along similar lines to SIM city has happened here, and the new graphics engine doesn’t allow (at least not as easily) to create the other elements - stadia, pitches, etc to the same standard we had in FM17.

[themadsheep2001]

4 minutes ago, gunner86 said:

So something about what you said here struck a chord.

I’ve been trying to find the features for FM18 but other than some summaries on fan sites I’m not coming up with a fully detailed list. But on a couple of places it does mention new graphics engine. Just spitballing here but it could be that something along similar lines to SIM city has happened here, and the new graphics engine doesn’t allow (at least not as easily) to create the other elements - stadia, pitches, etc to the same standard we had in FM17.

I think they made changes to accommodate physics modelling and improvements in the ME, which that has hugely benefitted from but don't think the graphics have then caught up as a result. Think Piperita has it right in that they took a calculated decision to prioritize gameplay over graphics, but it does look like they are focusing on graphics in the medium future judging by the number of art and animator roles they advertised for in the last 2+ years. Whether we see that in FM24...

[Kune]

Any new feature?

[PigeonStrangler]

I feel sports Interactive should be focusing more on improving what's already in the game, rather than continue to bloat the game by adding new features.  The community wants improvements to:

- Regen faces

- Set-pieces

- A match engine that is far more visually appealing

- The chance to be a Director of Football

- Streamline the game in general.  

Instead, Sports Interactive's marketing team feel new features must be added as selling points for customers.  However, the reality is this just bloats the game more often than not.  Most of use just automate a lot of actions to the assistant manager and coaches just to cut down on the bloat.  So many of the new features (like walking on to the pitch before a game that was added a few years ago) are a novelty that is now turned off in the settings, or skipped entirely.  We don't need pages, and pages, of content to go through and to answer the same questions before and after ever game.  The inbox has 50+ messages in it sometimes and most us just hit 'mark as read' - I want to see important information only!  Cut down on all this and focus on streamlining. 

I honestly don't care about SI adding logos and stuff since I download facepacks, kits, stadiums, logos, and everything else from the community.  SI have invested money in securing these rights that probably should've went into other areas.  Software that can create realistic faces (from a large sample of real faces) was created by the community and I see no reason why this can't be implemented into Football Manager.  After a few years, the game becomes all faceless regens and we lose all emotional attachment to those players.  The community is showing more innovation than the actual game devs at this point.

I'm unimpressed.  

 

[Powermonger]

2 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

I think they made changes to accommodate physics modelling and improvements in the ME, which that has hugely benefitted from but don't think the graphics have then caught up as a result. Think Piperita has it right in that they took a calculated decision to prioritize gameplay over graphics, but it does look like they are focusing on graphics in the medium future judging by the number of art and animator roles they advertised for in the last 2+ years. Whether we see that in FM24...

This makes me think there is technology/source code limitation and not a talent issue, at least with the existing code. 3d match engine was introduced 12 years ago and graphically it has not improved at all in that time and as others have provided evidence for, it actually regressed. Logically for a core part of the game you would expect there would be vast improvements 12 years on but this not the case. I am hoping the the introduction of women's football to FM will actually be the launch of a brand new game top to bottom and replacing the existing UI and match engines, hence the need for additional art and animation roles.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Powermonger

[themadsheep2001]

12 minutes ago, Powermonger said:

This makes me think there is technology/source code limitation and not a talent issue, at least with the existing code. 3d match engine was introduced 12 years ago and graphically it has not improved at all in that time and as others have provided evidence for, it actually regressed. Logically for a core part of the game you would expect there would be vast improvements 12 years on but this not the case. I am hoping the the introduction of women's football to FM will actually be the launch of a brand new game top to bottom and replacing the existing UI and match engines, hence the need for additional art and animation roles.

I think the "brand new" approach misses that the ME has had so many changes its pretty much an entirely different beast. I wouldn't worry about whether it's called new or not, rather whether has that extra development, which they have said they aim to do (was mentioned when they did spoke in depth about womens football last year)

[rp1966]

10 hours ago, gunner86 said:

I’ve been trying to find the features for FM18 but other than some summaries on fan sites I’m not coming up with a fully detailed list. But on a couple of places it does mention new graphics engine. Just spitballing here but it could be that something along similar lines to SIM city has happened here, and the new graphics engine doesn’t allow (at least not as easily) to create the other elements - stadia, pitches, etc to the same standard we had in FM17.

Something certainly changed in the way they do match visualisation (this is entirely separate from the ME which is about the tactical match generation). But much of the problem is in the palette and texturing which should have been maintainable across engines; a pitch is about as simple as it gets when it come to texturing and yet that is poorly done in the post FM18 graphics. Modelling doesn't look to be simpler; just less varied (it was necessary in SC - for SC4 people in the modding community were effectively building near architectural rendering quality models; which were far  too complex for 2011/12 3D engines).  But even in SC5 in place of resolution and detail the game gained much improved lighting as you'd expect in a 3D engine and greater flexibility in camera angles and zoom. And a city builder obviously has a much bigger gameworld and vastly more objects, both moving and static than a stadium and a limited rendition of its immediate surrounds.

In FM the visuals seem to have gone backwards in all areas at once for no apparent gain.  If there was a trade off that led to the backward step, what was it?  If they did it for added performance on outdated laptops, well ...

But no performance trade off explains why the palette would change from pretty realistic to over-saturated and cartoon-y. 

 

Edited October 8, 2022 by rp1966

[alian62]

28 minutes ago, rp1966 said:

Something certainly changed in the way they do match visualisation (this is entirely separate from the ME which is about the tactical match generation). But much of the problem is in the palette and texturing which should have been maintainable across engines; a pitch is about as simple as it gets when it come to texturing and yet that is poorly done in the post FM18 graphics. Modelling doesn't look to be simpler; just less varied (it was necessary in SC - for SC4 people in the modding community were effectively building near architectural rendering quality models; which were far  too complex for 2011/12 3D engines).  But even in SC5 in place of resolution and detail the game gained much improved lighting as you'd expect in a 3D engine and greater flexibility in camera angles and zoom. And a city builder obviously has a much bigger gameworld and vastly more objects, both moving and static than a stadium and a limited rendition of its immediate surrounds.

In FM the visuals seem to have gone backwards in all areas at once for no apparent gain.  If there was a trade off that led to the backward step, what was it?  If they did it for added performance on outdated laptops, well ...

But no performance trade off explains why the palette would change from pretty realistic to over-saturated and cartoon-y. 

 

Because after FM17 the graphics were outsourced rather than being done in house . Something i heard years ago 

[dino88]

Wish SI could bring this into the game

[Dagenham_Dave]

15 hours ago, Erimus1876 said:

A stadium editor would be a very useful 'headline' feature imo.  It may also save SI a lot of time resolving the legitimate complaints about how the stadiums in FM have lacked variety and character since the FM-17 days.  I could imagine a community with access to a stadium editor would pretty much build every conceivable stadium in the world and have it downloadable for everyone else to use in no time.    One problem solved, thus leaving SI to get on with updating the rest of the 3d matchday experience!

Exactly this. 

Right now between graphics packs and mods, the community can create player faces, logos, real names, 3d and 2d strips, pitch textures, ball colours, and a host of other things. The one thing that cannot be modded properly is stadiums. I'm not sure what SI is scared of here. Plenty content creators stream/video content with all the real names and logos and stuff, so they surely can't be worried about licensing. Imagine the great work a good modder could do to make the stadiums in the game look even somewhat like real life, because right now it's a massive immersion breaker for me. 

[gunner86]

3 hours ago, alian62 said:

Because after FM17 the graphics were outsourced rather than being done in house . Something i heard years ago 

Are we sure it’s not the other way round? I knew they’d changed between in house and outsourced but I thought it was when they brought it in house

[autohoratio]

3 hours ago, dino88 said:

Wish SI could bring this into the game

I really miss the variety of camera angles that FM17 had, I raised having more camera angles as a feature request a while back. No response by anyone at SI to say why they were removed sadly. If any modders can find ways to implement them back into the game I'd be incredibly grateful!

[KillYourIdols]

I would love a better match engine, it needs a bit of love after all these years, but I'd be happy with just a bit more "Off the pitch" as it were. Better Crowd, better stadium, better weather, better wear on the turf ect. 

Bit of spit and polish I suppose. I'm fully invested in my little FM world, but a little bit of that dies come matchday.

 

[Double0Seven]

These discussions feel pointless. Ive had them 5 years ago. Ive had them 10 years ago. Even back then with the current state of minimum specs compared to other games we already concluded FM could do more graphics wise compared to other games. 

These discussions go on and on while some cling on to the hope that SI will do major changes despite still selling a lot of copies every year with no competitor. Only thing that will force a change is a new competitor or falling profits. I will be back in 5 years and see if I spot any new arguments, because so far its the same old same old. 

Edited October 8, 2022 by Double0Seven

[grade]

29 minutes ago, Double0Seven said:

These discussions feel pointless. Ive had them 5 years ago. Ive had them 10 years ago. Even back then with the current state of minimum specs compared to other games we already concluded FM could do more graphics wise compared to other games. 

These discussions go on and on while some cling on to the hope that SI will do major changes despite still selling a lot of copies every year with no competitor. Only thing that will force a change is a new competitor or falling profits. I will be back in 5 years and see if I spot any new arguments, because so far its the same old same old. 

Of all of these discussions, which one was actually with SI members? I'm not considering, moderators or the usual SI members that are more hands down here at the forums, like Neil, Lucas or Desmond.

[dino88]

6 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Exactly this. 

Right now between graphics packs and mods, the community can create player faces, logos, real names, 3d and 2d strips, pitch textures, ball colours, and a host of other things. The one thing that cannot be modded properly is stadiums. I'm not sure what SI is scared of here. Plenty content creators stream/video content with all the real names and logos and stuff, so they surely can't be worried about licensing. Imagine the great work a good modder could do to make the stadiums in the game look even somewhat like real life, because right now it's a massive immersion breaker for me. 

If I had a penny for the number of times I've felt that us the players have done more for this game than SI

[alian62]

4 hours ago, gunner86 said:

Are we sure it’s not the other way round? I knew they’d changed between in house and outsourced but I thought it was when they brought it in house

Maybe !!   just heard or read it somewhere

[paddypower]

I find it quite funny SI believe they would lose half the base if they raised the minimum spec. Apparently the users they are worried about solely play FM and nothing else. These guys have been buying the game year in and year out as it's the only hobby. You really think they will simply stop playing?

What about PlayStation users when a new console comes out? Do Sony lose half of their base? It's a nonsense suggestion - people simply upgrade when they are required to. 

The only users you would worry about are children who can't just go and buy a new laptop, but it's a good thing the game releases near Christmas isn't it?   

[gunner86]

11 minutes ago, paddypower said:

I find it quite funny SI believe they would lose half the base if they raised the minimum spec. Apparently the users they are worried about solely play FM and nothing else. These guys have been buying the game year in and year out as it's the only hobby. You really think they will simply stop playing?

What about PlayStation users when a new console comes out? Do Sony lose half of their base? It's a nonsense suggestion - people simply upgrade when they are required to. 

The only users you would worry about are children who can't just go and buy a new laptop, but it's a good thing the game releases near Christmas isn't it?   

What ridiculous twaddle. I know several people whose only game they play is FM. They don’t own a console, so that’s not an option, and the point they have to upgrade to keep playing is the point they will stop.

The PlayStation analogy is not even a fair comparison anyway, how many people do you think there is out there buying a PlayStation and only playing one game on it?
And not everyone has £400 kicking around to just spend on a computer to play one game on. Heck, not everyone has £400 kicking around to spend on something to play 20 games on.

Edited October 8, 2022 by gunner86

[paddypower]

1 minute ago, gunner86 said:

What ridiculous twaddle. I know several people whose only game they play is FM. They don’t own a console, so that’s not an option, and the point they have to upgrade to keep playing is the point they will stop.

The PlayStation analogy is not even a fair comparison anyway, how many people do you think there is out there buying a PlayStation and only playing one game on it?
And not everyone has £400 kicking around to just spend on a computer to play one game on. Heck, not everyone has £400 kicking around to play 20 games on.

FM first came out in 2005 (and most of us were playing CM before that). Are you seriously suggesting these players haven't changed their PC/Laptop from then? After all if they needed to surely they'd just give up and stop playing according to you...

If they need to make an upgrade for the first time in the FM series history, 99% will. Maybe not instantly if money is a problem, but they will eventually. The same way everyone finds money for a new phone, TV, fridge etc. Sometimes hardware needs updated, that's life.

[gunner86]

12 minutes ago, paddypower said:

FM first came out in 2005 (and most of us were playing CM before that). Are you seriously suggesting these players haven't changed their PC/Laptop from then? After all if they needed to surely they'd just give up and stop playing according to you...

If they need to make an upgrade for the first time in the FM series history, 99% will. Maybe not instantly if money is a problem, but they will eventually. The same way everyone finds money for a new phone, TV, fridge etc. Sometimes hardware needs updated, that's life.

I’m not saying no one would upgrade, I’m saying there is a proportion that wouldn’t, for every single person I know that plays the game on an old machine, they do so because the machine can, they did not buy the machine because it runs FM. There are people who buy laptops just to play FM but most who do will buy the cheapest that can get away with running it.
But I’d love to know who these 99% of people are who will buy a £400+ laptop just to carry on playing a £40 game… I’ve got some magic beans I’d like to sell them. I’d also be interested to meet these people buying new fridges just to play FM on.

Edited October 8, 2022 by gunner86

[paddypower]

2 minutes ago, gunner86 said:

I’m not saying no one would upgrade, I’m saying there is a proportion that wouldn’t, for every single person I know that plays the game on an old machine, they do so because the machine can, they did not buy the machine because it runs FM.
But I’d love to know who these 99% of people are who will buy a £400+ laptop just to carry on playing a £40 game… I’ve got some magic beans I’d like to sell them. I’d also be interested to meet these people buying new fridges just to play FM on.

Love how you avoided the question - Do these players have the same laptop from 2005? No one has had one break and replace it? Why did they do that? Surely not to play a £40 game?

[KillYourIdols]

100% I would buy FM year on year, even just if there was no update apart from updated squads. If my PC ever became unable to play FM, I would buy a new one. For over 1000 hours played, year on year, it still represents value. I enjoy it. £30 for a round of golf, once a week for a year (assuming a round is 3 hours) is £1560 a year, which is £10 an hour. £33 for a copy of FM works out, per hour as 3p. It is, for me, value. Do I want an improvement? Sure. Will it ever get to a point where I DONT consider it value for money? Probably not.

 

Worst case scenario, I pay £800 for a  new PC that may last me 5 years, thats 160 pound per year. I would pay £200 a year for a new PC and a copy of FM. That's 54p a day.

 

Maybe I'm part of the problem? But each to their own.

Edited October 8, 2022 by KillYourIdols