4-4-2 Diamond Low Block - The Guide

[Cleon]

This is taken from my website.

https://www.viewfromthetouchline.com/

 

One of the biggest myths in Football Manager is that you cannot play a low-block and be successful as a strategy for 90 minutes in every match. This article is going to highlight exactly why that is a myth. For this project, I’m going to write about my time at Íþróttafélagið Þór in Iceland, where I used a 4-4-2 diamond low block. Getting a low block to work is not an easy task and can be highly frustrating. It requires a massive amount of patience to get right and attention to detail. 

Before creating any tactic in Football Manager, you need to understand a few things and ask yourself a few questions. You also need a general idea about how you want to play. If not, then how do you know what type of players you need to bring in? Or what tactical changes to make? Without a basic idea of that, then you really have nothing to work towards. Anyways, back to those questions, they should be something like this;

• Do the players you have fit the tactic and style you want to create, or does the tactic and style have to fit the players?
• What are your player's strengths and weaknesses?
• How does the style you want to create impact the strongest areas of your current squad? I.e., if you want to dominate the midfield, is the current player capable of doing it?!
• You might have to make compromises, to begin with, so what will you have to trade off?

Identity

One of the great accessible coaches and authors on Twitter, @PeterPrickett, always says, is he not playing defensive football if he doesn’t give the ball away? And he’s correct. Defensive football can actually take on many different interpretations and doesn’t have to be associated with playing a low block and camping in your own half. 

Defensive football can be a side that is possession focused and doesn’t give the ball away. Another version could be a team that presses the opposition heavily from the front. It has many forms that it can take on.

The identity I wanted to create at the club was one that relied on playing a low block with the intention of staying solid and compact while absorbing pressure. Then, when a chance arises, counterattack. I love playing this type of football on Football Manager. So the identity I created was a defensive, low-block counter-attacking one.

I don’t just want to absorb pressure and do nothing else, as you can’t win games playing that way. The key to this is the roles you choose. Let the team's playing style, team instructions and mentality determine how much you absorb. Then allow the players' roles and duties to dictate how you play when in possession of the ball.

I personally believe that to be the key to getting low blocks or defensive football in general, to work. Many times I see people set up in these types of systems yet are super negative with the roles and duties they use. Then when they get the ball, they do nothing with it as they can’t get out of their own half. Or they simply don’t commit men forward or have runners.

It is possible to be compact and defensive to absorb pressure and then be lethal in attacks. This is why I can’t stress just how important the roles and duties you play are. I’ll show you how I approach it with the 4-4-2 diamond low block.

4-4-2 Diamond Low Block

This is what I’ve gone for and will explain why a little later on.

One vital bit of information you need to remember is that every tactic has strengths and weaknesses. There is no such thing as a perfect tactic, no matter how much you try. You always have some kind of tradeoff to make. It’s important you know, quickly, though, how your system actually works and why. If you don't, then you won't understand why certain things happen or won’t know what the weak areas of the system actually are. It makes it easier to identify real issues that you can fix and helps with the ‘how to fix the issue too.

I’ll be going into a lot of detail about the strengths and weaknesses of the 4-4-2 diamond low block later on in the article. But to give you a general idea of what you should be looking for and to understand how your own system works regardless of shape, it should look something like this;

Pro’s

• Two strikers
• Diamond midfield
• Use of a DMC
• Use of an AMC
• It’s an attacking formation
• Lots of passing options
• Numbers advantage in midfield normally
• Versatile midfield setups.
• Compact when in defensive situations

Con’s

• A possible lack of midfield width at times
• Risk of the central midfielders' being pulled out of position
• Vulnerable to counterattacks
• Requires superman type players for certain positions, i.e., full-backs
• Full backs can be isolated by the opposition
• Overloads down the flanks
• High energy expenditure

Mentality

Here, I want to be quite passive initially. So for the base tactic of the 4-4-2 diamond low block, I will use a cautious mentality. This will likely change on a game-by-game basis though and cycle between cautious or defensive. I will never go higher than this.

The 4-4-2 diamond low block is quite an offensive formation by default.

Team Instructions

For the team instructions, I wanted to use something straight out of the box. So these are the standard ones that come with the direct counter-attack tactical style. That way, everyone can see how it works straight away.

If you were creating a tactic though you can feel free to add to these or remove them if you wish. But for this 4-4-2 diamond low block project, they’re actually ideal for what I’m wanting.

Due to me wanting to stay compact and deep, that is why we use a lower defensive line and a lower line of engagement. To encourage us to keep our shape and stay in our own half. If we start chasing the ball around or engaging the opposition in the press too early, it will create gaps and we will lose some of our compactness.

We want to invite the opposition onto us in deep areas before coming aggressive. That is why we get stuck in and force-pressing traps more often in the deep areas. It all plays into our plan, and then when we win possession of the ball, we can attack. Forcing the players outside initially is because, while it looks like our flank is unprotected, we have the numbers centrally to deal with any crosses. The opposition can’t hurt us from out wide.

Once the ball is won back, we want to make the most of the opposition being very advanced in our own half. This is why we want a faster tempo and more direct passing in possession. The idea is to get the ball from our defence to the attack in the quickest possible way. This encourages that.

There is little point in winning the ball back and not being aggressive with it. That just allows the opposition to regain defensive shape and get players back in position to defend against us. I want to use the ball to hurt them. This is the ultimate trade-off for giving up possession. If I don’t do this, then why give up possession in the first place? It would make it redundant as a strategy.

Defence

The defence in the 4-42 diamond low block is well equipped for defending and should stay close to each other and be compact in defensive transitions. They sit deep and keep their shape until the pressing traps kick in. The choice of attacking wingbacks, though, was taken because I see them providing width and attacking down the flanks. The whole tactic will likely fall apart if they don’t do this, as they’re the only direct source of width. 

I want the wingbacks to offer width and support attacks by going to the byline frequently. Since they play a demanding position that requires a lot of energy, the wingbacks are ultimately the most crucial component of the 4-4-2 diamond low block. Since they are the only real wide cover I have, the players must be able to support attacks by providing width while also being able to quickly regain their positions to aid in defensive situations.

Midfield

I want a player here who can dictate the game from deep and recycle possession. I'm looking for a player who handles all the routine tasks and motivates the other midfielders. I want a player who does all the simple stuff and makes the rest of the midfield tick. This is why I’ve gone with a deep-lying playmaker to help with this. Due to him being on defensive duty, he should hold his position better and not support attacks.

The mezzala is the midfielder role. I really need him to make those defence-splitting runs from deep and to give me an outlet and a way out of our own half. This is likely the most important attacking role, as he should be one of the quickest to react to us winning possession back. He should make those early runs trying to play between the lines.

A box-to-box midfielder is another dynamic role that will see the player help support the defence and our attacks. It’s another high-energy role that again should enable him to be another runner from deep when we gain possession.

A bit like with the deep-lying playmaker, the advanced playmaker is expected to keep the ball and play balls to the more attack-minded players and be the creative outlet in the final third. It’s no use having all these runners if there is no one able to actually create for them.

Attack

I recently wrote about striker roles, which can be read here; 

https://www.viewfromthetouchline.com/2022/09/09/choosing-the-best-striker-role

The idea behind these roles is the pressing forward will hound the opposition in our own half or close to the halfway line. Hopefully, this can help us win the ball back and then hit counterattacks. Or at the very least, force the opposition to make mistakes.

While the deep-lying forward can also be a creative outlet for the midfield and wingbacks, it’s all about having options and creating a good balance throughout the side.

Two Sides of the 4-4-2 Diamond Low Block

You should have seen by this point that the roles I actually use may be very different from the ones you believe I should be playing. As I stated earlier in the article, having an actual way out is important. My roles and duties allow me to dictate how we play when we have the ball, which is the key point. This is why I can still win games and score goals.

When creating tactics like this, you need to split the game into two things.

• With the ball
• Without the ball

I’ve seen people request some kind of addition that allows us to do the above for many years. But we can already do that. The formation you use is your base defensive shape, and then the roles and duties are how you’ll attack. Then we have the team instructions to further refine both of those.

That’s what I’ve explained above, how I’ve approached this and split the team into both with and without the ball. Now we are in a position to see how this plays out and why it works.

The Analysis

Before we jump into this analysis, I want to make it clear that this strategy works all the time for me, regardless of the opposition I play against. The reasons will become more apparent when I show the analysis. Against big sides in the Champions League, for example, we are very deep and defensive and focus on winning the ball back deep in our own half. We are happy to concede possession in this type of game.

When we play lesser teams, this strategy still works because of the roles and duties we use. If a team doesn’t attack us or sits deep themselves, then the roles dictate how we play. So we can still play a normal game and we have players like the deep-lying playmaker who can dictate play. We can easily pass the ball around and still be creative in these scenarios.

By default, we play differently based on how the opposition plays. But whatever way someone plays against us, we are already well adapted and prepared for it.

Let’s take a look at some of the Champions League games we’ve played.

Home Game Against Arsenal

Here we can see the natural shape and positions we take up when being defensive. You can also see the midfield triangle we have. We are happy to concede possession out wide while we cover the central areas. We are deep and compact, which is what I want. 

I’m happy for Arsenal to have the ball in these kinds of areas because the only option they have is to cross. My side should be able to deal with crosses like this all day long. 

Keep an eye on the player who is circled; that’s the box-to-box midfielder. He is already coming across to deal with the danger. This means that the left wingback can keep his position in the defensive line and keep an eye on the player nearest to him. If he was to come across, then our line would be breached. Which is something we don’t want happening.

He’s managed to get across and cut off the angle that Tomiyasu had to cross the ball, forcing him outside and towards the corner. The rest of the players are really well placed to deal with the movement of the Arsenal players.

You might be thinking that the left wingback has settings to sit narrow due to his starting position in the first screenshot. He hasn’t; it’s just the 4-4-2 diamond low blocks natural positions. Everything is more narrow and compact because that’s the natural shape.

We had just been attacking in this image (I’ll focus more on our attacks later) and lost the ball high up the pitch. So now Arsenal is attempting to counterattack us. The player circled is my right wingback. This could have been problematic if he didn't recover his position or someone had not covered for him. Luckily, we have a defensive deep-lying playmaker for these types of scenarios.

He can easily shift across and help out the right wingback should he need to. Or he can follow the other Arsenal players. The central defenders and the left wingback are also well positioned to deal with any kind of threat too.

All ten outfield players are deep in my own half here. We can see that the ball has been played to Saka. If the left wingback steps up for him, he will leave the other player free. So what he does here is jockey around while the box-to-box midfielder steps across to deal with him. Leaving the wingback free to follow the runner, should he make a run.

What happens here, though, is that the box-to-box midfielder wins the ball back and we end up breaking at pace. But again, our defensive solidarity shines through. and it’s hard to see where any danger would come from.

Attacking Play in the Arsenal Home Game

One thing I think people forget in tactics of this style is that we still attack normal too. It isn’t all just counterattack after counterattack. You can still play the ball around and carve good openings. This is where your roles and settings come into play.

In the above screenshot, my goalkeeper gets the ball back from an Arsenal overhit pass. He then rolls it out to the ball-playing defender. Without really thinking about it, he hit the ball instantly direct to the right wingback. In an instant, we are now on the front foot. These are the settings playing out that I spoke about earlier in the article. The higher tempo, more direct passing and the goalkeeper set to distribute the ball quickly.

All of that combined is our style of play when we have the ball. This isn’t a counterattack because we don’t have the numerical advantage and nor are we taking advantage of the opposition in any way. This is just a direct move, something which people often think is a counterattack. But they’re both different things.

I think the caption explains exactly what happens here! The right wingback dribbles inside and gets past Tierney. Then he decided to run on the outside and back inside again when the defender cut across to attempt to cut the space off. This gives him the entire channel to drive forward in. While over on the left side, the pressing forward is in the channel making his run forward. The Arsenal defence doesn’t even know he exists.

He ends up hitting the ball in the air off his weaker foot into the path of the striker. The striker heads the ball towards the goal, but it goes wide sadly. But it’s a brilliant move and shows the direct passing and high-tempo combination in play. We can cause Arsenal issues and the game isn’t all one-sided even though we defend in a low block.

I wanted to show us playing some good football deep in our own half this time. It’s worth noting that just because the formation we use is narrow by default, doesn’t mean we don’t attack using the width of the pitch.

In this example, the deep-lying forward is under pressure and has had to pass the ball back to the ball-playing defender. When the ball-playing defender receives the ball, he passes it to the deep-lying playmaker, who passes it back instantly to avoid Arsenal’s press. Then he gains a yard and receives the ball back. Now the deep-lying playmaker is on his stronger foot and the pitch has opened up for him.

The left wingback is already streaming forward. Remember when I said the wingbacks had to be superhuman? This is why. It’s such a demanding role and requires so much energy to get up and down the wing all game long. The mezzala (circled player) is also looking to run and support play.

Once the left wingback receives the ball, he tries to control it and then protects the ball for a few seconds, which allows play to catch up. The deep-lying forward makes the run of the arrow, as does the pressing forward. This allows the left wingback to pass the ball to the deep-lying playmaker who was free. He then plays it to the pressing forward.

The whole time this was happening, the mezzala was making his run to support and into free space. This allowed the pressing forward to pivot and play him in. The mezzala is now in free space, drives forward, and unfortunately, his shot was saved.

Again, brilliant, direct attacking play using the full width of the pitch.

This match ended 1-1 and we did more than enough to earn a draw and played some good stuff while defending well.

Real Madrid Match

My side, while being way above the quality of any other side in Iceland, in the actual Champions League, we are probably the equivalent of a Championship side from England. So it can feel like really hard work at times. We can hold our own, like in the Arsenal game, but sometimes away from home, the struggles can be more noticeable due to the quality of some teams we face.

That’s not to say we can’t win the game, it just means that we might be more limited compared to the home leg, for example. This Real Madrid match is an example of this. We did enough to win the first match 2-1 at home.

The second leg is a totally different story, though. To set the scene, here are the heat maps;

While our own map isn’t very interesting, that’s expected. The Real Madrid one is as they basically had all ten outfield players camped in our half. So how do we deal with this? The short answer is to trust the process. By that, I mean, don't panic because we don’t have possession of the ball or because the opposition attacks us constantly. This is what we are set up for. This is our bread and butter.

The key thing to remember in these types of systems is to keep checking the stats, watching the game, and most importantly, knowing if your player or players are having bad games and reacting as soon as possible. If not, you might end up not being as solid as you thought. You need to be ready to react.

I started this game the same as the Arsenal game, with a cautious mentality. However, after the first 40 seconds, I noticed this in the screenshot above. We had just attacked and lost the ball, and immediately Real Madrid ran at us. The pace on this side is scary compared to what we have in our team. So as soon as I saw the above, I dropped to defensive duty. I wasn’t shutting up shop, but I wanted to stay more compact and not get the midfield cut off from the defensive.

That can be problematic. Not just from a defensive standpoint, but also for when we regain possession and attack. We saw how I was creating chances in the Arsenal game by having players close together deep. In this game, I felt we were a bit disjointed. You’d not find this stuff out if you weren’t watching the game, though, and just relying on highlights.

Highlights are fine if you are happy with your tactic and how it plays. But this is a huge game for us, a Champions League semi-final second leg that we are currently winning. I don’t want to lose what could be a pivotal moment for the club and Iceland as a whole. So I was prepared to go the extra mile.

Just a side note here, I’d not gone to these lengths in any other game or paid this much attention. This is purely a one-off.

Straight away in the next attack, I see the change to defensive mentality as taken effect by how super deep we are now inside our own area. The four circled players are the back four. The right wingback has stayed wide on this occasion because the other three midfielders are either applying pressure or tracking runners. The other three defensive players are all positioned centrally. 

While they might seem really deep, they have all the space covered and all the runners covered too. Leaving them free to attack any crosses into the box. It looks bad that we are so deep, but based on player positioning and the attack patterns of Real Madrid, we should be able to defend like this well. I don’t see how they can hurt us in these kinds of areas.

It’s not all bad and not just us camped in our half getting battered, though. We can also be proactive when winning the ball back. In the image above, the player closing down Dodo forces him to pass. Dodo attempts to pass the ball to the player next to the circled one. Dodo doesn’t have any options here as he was forced outside and he’s facing away from the goal. So when he attempts to pass the ball, my player who (circled) cuts out the pass.

This is still the same, just from a different camera angle. Once we win possession back, the team bursts into life because a proper counterattack is triggered. And we go from the edge of our area to almost scoring in a matter of a few seconds. Frederiksen passes the ball to the striker. While this is happening, the mezzala has spun around and busted a gut to get forward.

Just look at how much space the mezzala has made up in a few short seconds. He is now spearheading the attack. Others in the team are also trying to sprint to keep up with play and offer support in this counterattack. The mezzala gets on the end of the ball and has a shot from just outside the area. The keeper makes a brilliant save and we win a corner. As you can see, when a counterattack kicks in, we have suddenly become very dangerous.

Again, another attack, this time down my right-hand side. The defensive line is still deep and intact. There is no real threat in the centre from Real Madrid either.

A little later, in the same move, Sane decides to run at us. Our players are again really well placed and the only real option here for Sane is to carry on his run. Everyone else who is a realistic option for him to link up with is already being marked. In the end, he tries to make the pass and fails, as my player steps up to take the ball away.

We absorbed the pressure greatly and while it looks like we got battered, we didn't in the end. We frustrated Real Madrid and limited them to half chances in the end or chances from range. The chances from the range were never really going to bother us though.

I might add more examples of games, playing against different systems, and show how it plays against sides who don’t sit deep against us. But the article has already become quite large, so depending on what people think and the feedback, there might be a part two. 

Remember that playing counterattacking, defensive or low-block football is extremely difficult and not supposed to be easy. It requires you to pay a lot of attention to detail, especially in the early stages of its creation. You really need to nail down how you play and what you do with the ball. It can be a really frustrating process at times, but it’s so rewarding once you’ve hit that sweet spot. I hope you’ve all enjoyed it.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Cleon

[Cleon]

Reserved

[llado01]

great guide , man!

 

a few quest:

what type of players needs to play defensive football (ex : for CB good positioning ; for a MEZ & B2B high stamina ...) ?

what stats made needs a good AP ?

 

no Cleon no party, is nice too see you again 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cleon]

15 minutes ago, llado01 said:

great guide , man!

 

a few quest:

what type of players needs to play defensive football (ex : for CB good positioning ; for a MEZ & B2B high stamina ...) ?

what stats made needs a good AP ?

 

no Cleon no party, is nice too see you again 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My players aren't that great, like I said in the article they're around Championship standard now if we compare to English sides. But I've played this style for 10 years and still used it when I first started. When all my players had single digits. The game already shows the recommended attributes they think the players need though for the roles. Just use those if you are struggling.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Cleon

[Aoyao]

How does Counterattack works in much short passing and lower tempo?

Edited September 16, 2022 by Aoyao

[Cleon]

3 hours ago, Aoyao said:

How does Counterattack works in much short passing and lower tempo?

Well during most transition phases you'd have less urgency to get the ball forward as quickly and you'd pass it around much more and waste valuable time. During this time the opposition has likely regained it's defensive positioning. Remember what a counterattack is and the purpose of one. If you want to pass it around more and play lower tempo then counterattacking likely isn't what you want at all imo

[DarJ]

On 14/09/2022 at 19:02, Cleon said:

Keep an eye on the player who is circled; that’s the box-to-box midfielder. He is already coming across to deal with the danger. This means that the left wingback can keep his position in the defensive line and keep an eye on the player nearest to him. If he was to come across, then our line would be breached. Which is something we don’t want happening.

what combination of instructions or scenarios made it so that the WB didn't go across to cover the opposition player despite the fact you have asked them to trigger the press more often? It frustrates me so much when my defenders step up very early, giving up space behind instead of either holding their line or dropping or waiting for the other nearby players to engage the opposition and I would like to know how to stop that from happening. 

[Cleon]

17 minutes ago, DarJ said:

what combination of instructions or scenarios made it so that the WB didn't go across to cover the opposition player despite the fact you have asked them to trigger the press more often? It frustrates me so much when my defenders step up very early, giving up space behind instead of either holding their line or dropping or waiting for the other nearby players to engage the opposition and I would like to know how to stop that from happening. 

It's a combination of the low defensive line and low line of engagement. That's it. The key to stop it happening is the line of engagement. 

[Panosgeo79]

Great guide

[Cleon]

2 hours ago, Panosgeo79 said:

Great guide

Thanks

 

[jc577]

Great thread as per, nice to have you back  Do you think any particular formation(s) are good for this style? I'm guessing we can rule top-heavy formations out... thinking 4231 deep (CM + 2 DM's), 4411 DM, 4141, 352 DM are all good shouts!

[Cleon]

5 hours ago, jc577 said:

Great thread as per, nice to have you back  Do you think any particular formation(s) are good for this style? I'm guessing we can rule top-heavy formations out... thinking 4231 deep (CM + 2 DM's), 4411 DM, 4141, 352 DM are all good shouts!

Formations that are top heavy aren't really suited to this yeah as it relies on having players deep.

[jc577]

2 hours ago, Cleon said:

Formations that are top heavy aren't really suited to this yeah as it relies on having players deep.

Thanks. How crucial do you think having a DM is to this style? Or let’s say, in a 442 for example, the lack of DM can/is mitigated by how deep and compact the team is, limiting space between the lines? 

[mikcheck]

@Cleondo you agree that it's almost impossible to play that same way later in the game when you'll have a better squad and teams start playing more defensive against you? Or is it something you can see working long term?

[Cleon]

39 minutes ago, jc577 said:

Thanks. How crucial do you think having a DM is to this style? Or let’s say, in a 442 for example, the lack of DM can/is mitigated by how deep and compact the team is, limiting space between the lines? 

I don't think anything is crucial in isolation. I don't think a DM is a must either as your entire team should be deep, so you should always have the numbers players this way. One of the midfielders should likely be more defensive minded but doesn't have to be in the DM slot imo

[Cleon]

7 minutes ago, mikcheck said:

@Cleondo you agree that it's almost impossible to play that same way later in the game when you'll have a better squad and teams start playing more defensive against you? Or is it something you can see working long term?

No. I spoke about this in the article. I'm the best team in my league and still play this way. I'm 12 years into this save btw.

Edited September 18, 2022 by Cleon

[Mutumba]

So, you write about how you need to pay attention to details and that this is a difficult tactic to master and so on. But you also (i believe) write that you dont need to watch a full game/extended highligts of a game? 

 

So my question is: Now that you've seemingly created a very good tactic - how much "work" do I need to do when using this tactic? Is it a tactic where you need to analyize the hightlights/game carefully, or is it pretty much a plug and play-kind of tactic.

[Cleon]

1 hour ago, Mutumba said:

So, you write about how you need to pay attention to details and that this is a difficult tactic to master and so on. But you also (i believe) write that you dont need to watch a full game/extended highligts of a game? 

 

So my question is: Now that you've seemingly created a very good tactic - how much "work" do I need to do when using this tactic? Is it a tactic where you need to analyize the hightlights/game carefully, or is it pretty much a plug and play-kind of tactic.

I've not posted a tactic really, I've posted about low-block football and shown examples of how I play currently, to highlight the fundamental parts of how low-blocks work on the game and what is needed to be successful. This topic is more about the building blocks/principles of playing this way and getting it. So in short it's not plug and play no.

I say you don' need to watch extensive/full games once you know how something works. There will be lots of people on here who can just make any formation work without any analysing etc. Others need time. It all comes down to how well you understand how the actually works.

I also can't answer how much work you would need to do as I don't know you or your understanding of the game. That's all down to you. It will differ for each person. Some people likely might need a one game, others a few games to know it's working etc. Others might need a season or so depending on their understanding.

Edited September 18, 2022 by Cleon

[Ein]

I never understood one thing. Why does the default direct counter-attack template come with cautious mentality + lower DL/LOE? Doesn't a cautious mentality imply a lower DL/LOE by default? The same question applies for positive/attacking templates like gegenpress which come with positive/attacking mentality + higher DL/LOE to boot.

I see that you are using 2 playmaker roles despite your intention to play counter-attacking and direct football. Don't you find that these roles slow play down or is that perhaps intended as a form of balance?

 

[Cleon]

4 hours ago, Ein said:

I never understood one thing. Why does the default direct counter-attack template come with cautious mentality + lower DL/LOE? Doesn't a cautious mentality imply a lower DL/LOE by default? The same question applies for positive/attacking templates like gegenpress which come with positive/attacking mentality + higher DL/LOE to boot.

I see that you are using 2 playmaker roles despite your intention to play counter-attacking and direct football. Don't you find that these roles slow play down or is that perhaps intended as a form of balance?

 

They can speed play up too. Look at the settings the two playmaker roles have and you can see they don't slow play down. Then look at the team instructions I use to get the players to play more direct, faster tempo etc.

[Ein]

1 hour ago, Cleon said:

They can speed play up too. Look at the settings the two playmaker roles have and you can see they don't slow play down. Then look at the team instructions I use to get the players to play more direct, faster tempo etc.

What I meant is that playmakers supposedly act as ball magnets so the other players will tend to look for them instead of attempting more direct and/or quick plays. Is there a particular reason behind the use of playmaking roles in such a counter-attacking tactic?

[Cleon]

32 minutes ago, Ein said:

What I meant is that playmakers supposedly act as ball magnets so the other players will tend to look for them instead of attempting more direct and/or quick plays. Is there a particular reason behind the use of playmaking roles in such a counter-attacking tactic?

The effects of players attracting the ball is greatly exaggerated on here and elsewhere. While it's true there might be a slight bias towards using them as passing outlets, the effects are nowhere near as profound as people think.

I also thought I touched upon the reasons for the playmakers in the midfield section of the article.

Quote

 

I want a player here who can dictate the game from deep and recycle possession. I'm looking for a player who handles all the routine tasks and motivates the other midfielders. I want a player who does all the simple stuff and makes the rest of the midfield tick. This is why I’ve gone with a deep-lying playmaker to help with this. Due to him being on defensive duty, he should hold his position better and not support attacks.

A bit like with the deep-lying playmaker, the advanced playmaker is expected to keep the ball and play balls to the more attack-minded players and be the creative outlet in the final third. It’s no use having all these runners if there is no one able to actually create for them.

 

5 runners in the tactic. You need people who can be creative and who will be focused on passing to them and able to get the ball to them. No use having everyone as a runner if there is no one to supply the ball. Playmakers are fine in all set-ups and all different styles of play.

Also remember, as I state in the article, every attack we have isn't always a fast direct counter. 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Cleon

[Cal585]

I enjoyed the article and thought it was well written! I have a couple of questions for you though:

What inspired the SK(a)? I hadn't thought about using one in a defensive formation before and I'm curious what drew you to it.

How much importance do you put on set piece routines with "Play for Set Pieces" on? Are they a big source of goals and do they ever frustrate you by slowing down an attack? It's not an instruction I've used very often. 

[Cleon]

1 hour ago, Cal585 said:

I enjoyed the article and thought it was well written! I have a couple of questions for you though:

What inspired the SK(a)? I hadn't thought about using one in a defensive formation before and I'm curious what drew you to it.

How much importance do you put on set piece routines with "Play for Set Pieces" on? Are they a big source of goals and do they ever frustrate you by slowing down an attack? It's not an instruction I've used very often. 

Even though we are deep, I want the keeper to be proactive still and deal with any defensive mishaps, especially if we've just had a counterattack and could possibly have players out of position. I find it better than just having him stand there. This way he'll step up and deal with threats if he thinks he can.

As for the play for set pieces, it doesn't slow play down as they only tend to do this when no option is on or if they're tackled and lose possession. It's not always a constant thing if that makes sense.

[Cleon]

I'll be dropping part two of this next week. It focuses on what happens when we aren't the underdogs and shows you how the tactic in the original post plays out.

[mikcheck]

22 horas atrás, Cleon disse:

I'll be dropping part two of this next week. It focuses on what happens when we aren't the underdogs and shows you how the tactic in the original post plays out.

That's great! I'm looking forward to read it and see how you do it, if you change things or keep it the same

[Cleon]

4 hours ago, mikcheck said:

That's great! I'm looking forward to read it and see how you do it, if you change things or keep it the same

Cheers, I don't actually change anything. I just want to highlight how it plays differently against different types of opposition. As people think low block only works if people attack you etc 

[mikcheck]

36 minutos atrás, Cleon disse:

Cheers, I don't actually change anything. I just want to highlight how it plays differently against different types of opposition. As people think low block only works if people attack you etc 

So you keep that tempo high even if the opposition is defending with low lines?

[Cleon]

1 hour ago, mikcheck said:

So you keep that tempo high even if the opposition is defending with low lines?

Yeah, I don't change anything. 

[engamohd]

The Godfather is back with a bang! Great read and guide

[Andrew Marines]

I know it's only an headline but what do you think about what they said about FM23? They talked about being able to defend in other ways but we found out that you already can. It'll surely be a bit more complicated but it doesn't seem much like a feature

[Cleon]

18 minutes ago, Andrew Marines said:

I know it's only an headline but what do you think about what they said about FM23? They talked about being able to defend in other ways but we found out that you already can. It'll surely be a bit more complicated but it doesn't seem much like a feature

Nothing to really say until we know what they were talking about. Could just mean something has been reworked, could be a new feature. We just don't know.

[Djeon36]

I

How would you set up a 442 tactic with this idea? I've been trying to see if I can use your ideas in a 442 but can't seem to get it to work.

 

[herne79]

Could a Mod please add this thread to the Tactics and Strategies Guides pinned to the top of the forum?

[Cleon]

2 hours ago, Djeon36 said:

I

How would you set up a 442 tactic with this idea? I've been trying to see if I can use your ideas in a 442 but can't seem to get it to work.

 

I'd approach it with the same principles I talk about in the thread. So it's down to you to balance that out with the roles you select. Maybe more info from yourself would make it possible to offer actual advice rather than generalised stuff though. As I've no idea what you've tried or what your tactic looked like. And most importantly, I don't know how it didn't work and the issues you had with getting it to work. I'm happy to offer more advice if you can be more detailed.

[engamohd]

I'd like to share my experience with low blocks, I have written on that topic before, but I did not manage to get initially passive low blocks to work well. I was working on a very similar project using a 4-2-4 DM, a formation which I view as quite balanced, but I was struggling to get the team to attack effectively. This great thread has given some ideas which made things click well, and started a new save with Udinese (expected to finish 16th) to being things from scratch.

At the beginning, I have fallen in the mistake of using conservative roles and TIs in low blocks with lower mentalities. This is correct if I want to shut up shop and be happy with a point, but that is not what i want. As @Cleonclearly explains, being deep and initially passive, does not mean you should not attack well. I fixed this using a neutral formation with aggressive roles and duties and adding aggressive TIs (More direct passing + higher tempo), the changes that made our team look VERY dangerous everytime we win the ball.

Additionally, it is not that we are passive and look only to attack on the counter. We can play a lot of passing football and create chances from open play, an example is our latest goal, against top of the league Napoli - which I started on Defensive mentality due to the massive pace in the starting lineup of Napoli-:

and below is our avg positions with and without the ball, in spite of using the defensive mentality the entire game

and our current form so far - conceding 4 in 10 so far

I don't want to hijack this thread, but the ideas presented here are quite clear and is basically what most people look for in a low block that attacks well. Thanks a lot @Cleon!

 

[Djeon36]

On 30/09/2022 at 10:56, Cleon said:

I'd approach it with the same principles I talk about in the thread. So it's down to you to balance that out with the roles you select. Maybe more info from yourself would make it possible to offer actual advice rather than generalised stuff though. As I've no idea what you've tried or what your tactic looked like. And most importantly, I don't know how it didn't work and the issues you had with getting it to work. I'm happy to offer more advice if you can be more detailed.

Here's what I've been working with based from the posts. I'm still tinkering with many roles since I'm still pretty new to making tactics and don't understand all of the roles yet but I think I'm understanding the point in trying to make the tactic more deadly on the counter. Let me know if there is any changes you would recommend.

[Cleon]

What's the idea behind both strikers being attacking, both wingers attacking and both wingbacks defensive? What was the idea/logic behind it all? Also what kind of issues are you facing when playing this way as you said you was struggling.

[Djeon36]

5 hours ago, Cleon said:

What's the idea behind both strikers being attacking, both wingers attacking and both wingbacks defensive? What was the idea/logic behind it all? Also what kind of issues are you facing when playing this way as you said you was struggling.

My Idea behind this tactic is to have the left WB overlap the left IW and cross into the box for the DLF. To be honest I haven't tried DLF too much but I've heard its basically like a TF but who can dribble its something I'm trying to experiment. I think I've realized that I'm focusing too much on trying to get my TF to be the #1 scorer so I'm trying to diversify my team with more attackers. The Wingers are on attacking to provide better offense since I've been struggling to score goals.  My main issue with the wingers is to get them defending narrow. I realized that wingers don't do much defending even on support duty. I'm currently experimenting with Wide Midfielders but I've never used them before. 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Djeon36

[mikcheck]

@Cleondo you still playing with that same team? If so, how advanced are you? I'm asking this because that system relies a a lot on the attacking WB's, they really need to be good and excel.  But it's known that the game does not produce many quality WB newgens, with good attacking attributes. Finding one with good dribbling and crossing it's like finding gold, let alone good off the ball too.

So how are you solving or how would you solve that?  Training wingers to be WB's?

Edited October 2, 2022 by mikcheck

[Cleon]

1 hour ago, Djeon36 said:

My Idea behind this tactic is to have the left WB overlap the left IW and cross into the box for the DLF. To be honest I haven't tried DLF too much but I've heard its basically like a TF but who can dribble its something I'm trying to experiment. I think I've realized that I'm focusing too much on trying to get my TF to be the #1 scorer so I'm trying to diversify my team with more attackers. The Wingers are on attacking to provide better offense since I've been struggling to score goals.  My main issue with the wingers is to get them defending narrow. I realized that wingers don't do much defending even on support duty. I'm currently experimenting with Wide Midfielders but I've never used them before. 

How does a defensive WB overlap an attacking IW though? The IW is placed much higher up the pitch than the WB and you've instructed the WB to be even more deeper and less adventurous as you've told him to use a defensive duty. There will be no overlap majority of the time.

If you have time you could perhaps read my book I created? As it's about creating a tactic and answers a lot of these issues/questions you have atm

https://www.viewfromthetouchline.com/2022/08/19/football-manager-playbook-released/

 

1 hour ago, mikcheck said:

@Cleondo you still playing with that same team? If so, how advanced are you? I'm asking this because that system relies a a lot on the attacking WB's, they really need to be good and excel.  But it's known that the game does not produce many quality WB newgens, with good attacking attributes. Finding one with good dribbling and crossing it's like finding gold, let alone good off the ball too.

So how are you solving or how would you solve that?  Training wingers to be WB's?

I've played this exact same way since I started the game also starting in the lowest playable league in Iceland. I'm now 13 seasons in. Majority of my players has single digit attributes for 7+ years anyway.

Just because someone might have bad crossing/low dribbling doesn't mean they can't excel at those things though. They still get lots of assists, lots of goals, makes lots of dribbles etc. So I'm not exactly sure what you're asking here because it's not a major issue that the game doesn't produce, the players still do what I want.

[herne79]

4 hours ago, Djeon36 said:

The Wingers are on attacking to provide better offense

I’d just like to pick up on this point because it isn’t necessarily the case that attack duty = “better” offence.

Sometimes a player starting from a deeper position (ie., a support duty) can offer better options with more variety in attack, perhaps also drawing defenders out of position to give additional space to your strikers.  You may of course find that your attacking play is fine with both Wingers on attack, but don’t be afraid to experiment with support duties if you find things aren’t quite working out as you’d expect 👍.

(As an aside, I don’t like to have symmetry of roles/duties on both flanks to help with variety of attacking play, but that isn’t to say such symmetry can’t work).

[Halbraum]

A masterpiece as always Cleon! Thank you.

On 14.09.2022 at 21:02, Cleon said:

This is just a direct move, something which people often think is a counterattack. But they’re both different things.

Kinda off-topic but I want to say something on this point here. It's completely possible to play direct football in a progressive, dominant, attacking manner. When people try to replicate Mourinho's Madrid, i see that they always select most negative TIs possible. Lowest lines, lowest mentalities, lowest pressing settings etc alongside all hoofball instructions. They confuse being vertical with counter-attacks. Madrid under Mourinho was one of the most ball-dominant sides in Europe, just after Barca and Bayern. And they used to press high, set their DL so high either.

[DIESEL.be]

On 01/10/2022 at 17:54, engamohd said:

I'd like to share my experience with low blocks, I have written on that topic before, but I did not manage to get initially passive low blocks to work well. I was working on a very similar project using a 4-2-4 DM, a formation which I view as quite balanced, but I was struggling to get the team to attack effectively. This great thread has given some ideas which made things click well, and started a new save with Udinese (expected to finish 16th) to being things from scratch.

At the beginning, I have fallen in the mistake of using conservative roles and TIs in low blocks with lower mentalities. This is correct if I want to shut up shop and be happy with a point, but that is not what i want. As @Cleonclearly explains, being deep and initially passive, does not mean you should not attack well. I fixed this using a neutral formation with aggressive roles and duties and adding aggressive TIs (More direct passing + higher tempo), the changes that made our team look VERY dangerous everytime we win the ball.

Additionally, it is not that we are passive and look only to attack on the counter. We can play a lot of passing football and create chances from open play, an example is our latest goal, against top of the league Napoli - which I started on Defensive mentality due to the massive pace in the starting lineup of Napoli-:

and below is our avg positions with and without the ball, in spite of using the defensive mentality the entire game

and our current form so far - conceding 4 in 10 so far

I don't want to hijack this thread, but the ideas presented here are quite clear and is basically what most people look for in a low block that attacks well. Thanks a lot @Cleon!

 

I gave this a whirl in my Anderlecht save, and have to say it works really well. Defensively we are very solid, and going up the pitch we look dangerous.

I tried my hands on a 4-2-2-2 trying to create the same movement but with ML (with an IW on attack) and MR (W on support) and it just seems they are a bit deep. Also i was surprised with the DLP, I suspected he drifts around quite a bit but so far it has not really caused me any major issues. The only thing I notice is that my defense often gets less ratings. 

[engamohd]

16 hours ago, DIESEL.be said:

I gave this a whirl in my Anderlecht save, and have to say it works really well. Defensively we are very solid, and going up the pitch we look dangerous.

I tried my hands on a 4-2-2-2 trying to create the same movement but with ML (with an IW on attack) and MR (W on support) and it just seems they are a bit deep. Also i was surprised with the DLP, I suspected he drifts around quite a bit but so far it has not really caused me any major issues. The only thing I notice is that my defense often gets less ratings. 

I have noticed this too, yes, but I did not yet dug deeper. I think it is due lots of misplaced passes from clearances or that sort of issue

[engamohd]

On 01/10/2022 at 17:54, engamohd said:

I'd like to share my experience with low blocks, I have written on that topic before, but I did not manage to get initially passive low blocks to work well. I was working on a very similar project using a 4-2-4 DM, a formation which I view as quite balanced, but I was struggling to get the team to attack effectively. This great thread has given some ideas which made things click well, and started a new save with Udinese (expected to finish 16th) to being things from scratch.

At the beginning, I have fallen in the mistake of using conservative roles and TIs in low blocks with lower mentalities. This is correct if I want to shut up shop and be happy with a point, but that is not what i want. As @Cleonclearly explains, being deep and initially passive, does not mean you should not attack well. I fixed this using a neutral formation with aggressive roles and duties and adding aggressive TIs (More direct passing + higher tempo), the changes that made our team look VERY dangerous everytime we win the ball.

Additionally, it is not that we are passive and look only to attack on the counter. We can play a lot of passing football and create chances from open play, an example is our latest goal, against top of the league Napoli - which I started on Defensive mentality due to the massive pace in the starting lineup of Napoli-:

and below is our avg positions with and without the ball, in spite of using the defensive mentality the entire game

and our current form so far - conceding 4 in 10 so far

I don't want to hijack this thread, but the ideas presented here are quite clear and is basically what most people look for in a low block that attacks well. Thanks a lot @Cleon!

 

Our season is turning out to be one of the very best sides I have EVER had defensively, noting that I play almost exclusively since over a decade ago focusing on defensive tactics.
 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by engamohd

[ta11zx]

7 hours ago, engamohd said:

Our season is turning out to be one of the very sides I have EVER had defensively, noting that I play almost exclusively since over a decade ago focusing on defensive tactics.
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

What changes do you make to set up shop or to be more attacking when needing a gol? 

[engamohd]

4 hours ago, ta11zx said:

What changes do you make to set up shop or to be more attacking when needing a gol? 

I follow Cleon’s guide above, I watch if we are getting overrun when the opponent attacks, especially in midfield, I may drop to defensive. I may also add time wasting. I also have a plan B formation 4411 with exact same style which I use when I want to have more control in the midfield.

 

Attacking wise, it is usually personnel changes so far, nothing drastic.

Edited October 5, 2022 by engamohd

[mikcheck]

@engamohd what about your possession numbers?

[engamohd]

38 minutes ago, mikcheck said:

@engamohd what about your possession numbers?

In the low 50s, ranking high overall just below high possession teams like Juve (60s), Napoli and Lazio. We hold the ball a lot in deeper areas.